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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions... [Re: SofaJesus]
    #606465 - 04/12/02 03:24 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

consider you are an entity that can only percieve 2 dimensions. say you can go back and forth, left and right but not up and down, for you up and down does not exist.

now, if you are on the surface of a sphere, without knowing that it is actually a 3d object, you could run all over it and if your shoes would leave blue marks, eventually you would understand that the sphere is finite (after some time the sphere would be blue)

allright, it may not be the best example...


Edited by raytrace (04/12/02 03:27 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions... [Re: raytrace]
    #606479 - 04/12/02 03:33 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Have you read "Flatland" by Edwin A. Abbott?


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OfflineSofaJesus
journeyman
Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 69
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions... [Re: raytrace]
    #606482 - 04/12/02 03:36 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

No No -- It was a great example

-- I'm trying to figure out if our version of infinte is just completely off base in the end... But when you look at joshua's paper you see that we could be off about everything no matter how much we think we gain in knowledge

I like to think of a little guy running all around a sphere for a few years... stopping and leaning forward to catch some breath and he says to himself, "Fuck... this place is infinte" --- then he starts running some more ....


--------------------
"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]


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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions... [Re: ]
    #606485 - 04/12/02 03:38 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

actually no, is it any good?


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OfflinePachanguero
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Re: Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions... [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #606492 - 04/12/02 03:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

From what I recall, the Uncertainty Principle of quantum mechanics tells us that we cannot simultaneously know the location and direction of a subatomic particle. The measurement of one collapses the probability matrix and changes the other.

We do live in a universe with no less than 10 distinct dimensions. Physicists suggest that while 3 of these comprise "3d space" as we know it, and the 4th is probably time, the remaining 6 or 7 dimensions are "tightly rolled up into a very small space".

With that in mind, though I'm not very well versed in superstring theory, I hypothesize that it merely *appears* from our perspective that these extra dimensions are so tightly coiled and rolled-up. For example: a sheet of paper looked at on its side appears as a straight line, a string viewed on end is a singular point, and a cube when viewed head-on is a square. So perhaps, from our perspective in "3d spacetime", these extra dimensions that appear to be "rolled up into a small space" are really just as "infinitely" large as any x-y-z 3d-space axis, but are set at right- or nearly-right-angles to our own perceived 3d world.

If the above is true, it would certainly provide another explanation for Einstein's "spooky action at a distance" of subatomic particles.... Physicists have broken apart neutrons into neutrino pairs. Then, when one of the pairs is diverted, re-routed, or changed in some manner, a corresponding change in the other particle is observed, regardless of the distance between them. Well, what if they really were the same particle, and the energy used to smash the original neutron into neutrino "pairs" simply shifted the neutron along one of the "invisible" dimensions that appear so tightly coiled? I think things could be worked out with some creative mathematics to show (assuming all the above to be reasonably accurate) that both matter and energy are conserved.

Just my 2 cents.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions... [Re: Pachanguero]
    #606509 - 04/12/02 04:01 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

assuming these extra dimensions we cannot percieve, couldn't a hypothetical being that is able to percieve them and move around them, really hide from us but actually watching and interacting with us without us understanding what it really is and assigning its actions to maybe irrelevant things?

that was a large sentence, sorry...


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OfflinePachanguero
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions... [Re: raytrace]
    #606515 - 04/12/02 04:09 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

"assuming these extra dimensions we cannot percieve, couldn't a hypothetical being that is able to percieve them and move around them, really hide from us but actually watching and interacting with us without us understanding what it really is and assigning its actions to maybe irrelevant things? "

Yes. I suppose it is also entirely possible that that there are beings that exist within some (all) of these "right-angled" dimensions that have littel or no perception of our existence. Moreover, one could also suppose that the ideas of "God(s)", angels, hell, heaven, etc. all exist, at least in part, within these other dimensions. Truly it would be interesting to discover that the human soul or spirit was really a being existing in these extra dimensions who, somehow, merges with us and follows our travels through life, learning. An interesting idea. I wonder, though, if science can ever really know the true answer. For if these extra dimensions are only known through mathematical discovery, how, then, can we truly explore them and discover what lies beyond if we have no direct influence into or out of them?

I think too much on the toilet. It's true. :P


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Invisibleraytrace
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Posts: 720
Re: Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions... [Re: Pachanguero]
    #606524 - 04/12/02 04:19 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

maybe at some point we will be able to clearly identify these other dimensions and move through them...or maybe people in the past have done this...then maybe not


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OfflineSofaJesus
journeyman
Registered: 03/04/02
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Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions... [Re: raytrace]
    #606553 - 04/12/02 04:49 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

You wrote -----"assuming these extra dimensions we cannot percieve, couldn't a hypothetical being that is able to percieve them and move around them, really hide from us but actually watching and interacting with us without us understanding what it really is and assigning its actions to maybe irrelevant things? "


Man if someone is watching me in the shower I'm gonna be pissed!!!!!
All those times you picked your nose or picked your ass and their it was just standing in front of you laughing the whole time...........

I


--------------------
"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]


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Invisibletak
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Re: Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions... [Re: raytrace]
    #606569 - 04/12/02 05:21 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

What a post. Hit me like a ton of bricks. So much to say. The whole introduction sounded like my life. Trouble, Chess, Tested. however i then went to a private school. I did the best in math, testing at a college junior level in 6th grade. The other subjects wernt as great. I was bored, got in trouble.

As far as free will goes, i dont think you can say there is or isnt. Its just like everything...its pretty hard to think of 'nothing'
The way we react has to do with climate, people, time, past events, everything. It is one of hte many forulas that make up life. When you say "we dont have free will" people usually are thinking "we we were specifically made to do this and this???" but thats not the case. If that were the case, and we were also infinate, God ust have spent a long time programming us. On the other hand, specific sets of rules, wich you said come into play will make it easier. People dont need to believe it, but its already proven. Cause and Effect. Free will cannot exist, because if it did, we would have to pay absolutly no attention to other people, places, or ideas. If we did, we would have to come up with copletely random answers to questions, and responses to situations wich would make hte world a evil twisted place with no order because people would be insane. I dont have a copy of what you wrote on the screen, but i do think you said "free will can not exist" wich is right, but not to be confused with "we do n ot have free will"....because 'free will' is not defined. Same as existance again, it cannot be comprehended. :[[[[


Ok. Now that i have just repeated what he said in 1 line...in 50 and made no sense whatsoever, ihave a question.

Is it just me being paranoid, or are things coming along?

raytrace asked if we could identify dimensions and move through them....There are TV shows, and movies about this. The One is one of the newer ones. Its not just this, but diffrent things that make me wonder if people in general are picking up on the bigger picture. We may be at war, and in the middle of political scandals, and that is what worries us. We think that everything is the same...but what about in everyones heads, althoguht caught up with the everyday taks they need to do, do you think we are actually evolving, and stuff? It seems so to me, however after i do alot of drugs i think that everyone is sharing thoughts with me. I dunno.


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
Utopiate
Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 443
Loc: MA
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions... [Re: Pachanguero]
    #606579 - 04/12/02 05:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Pachanguero-
Very good thoughts, I think you explained very well what I was thinking of. Physics is getting more and more evidence of these extra dimensions, always at the very small scales where ordinary laws start to fall apart. However, I don't think we can ever really image what >3 dimensions is like. "Tightly roled up into a very small space" is the best phrase we can come up with, but its probably far from the truth. Our brains are suited to survival in 3 dimensions, and a 4th has no meaning to us, even though it is just at "right angles" to our 3. Just like the creature living in 2 dimensions on a sphere could never comprehend what is at right angles to its existence. Maybe (I hope) at death we can comprehend the true nature of reality that exists outside the realm of our immediate survival on this planet.

Do you think someday far in the future we could develop a technology that could travel in these dimensions? It would certainly require a lot more understanding of superstrings than we currently have, but its probably possible.


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