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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2651533 - 05/07/04 08:22 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

"but what if there was some sort of spiritual world which created eventually the material world"

Well then that spiritual world is "something," requiring another further-back explanation of what started everything.... I would ask you "ok so what started this spiritual world that started the material world?"


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleMr_Gubjet


Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 323
Loc: Infinitus Kosmos
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2651597 - 05/07/04 08:53 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

repemon said:
Okay, two persons talk to each other.

P1: I believe that the universum has always existed. It is just infinite.

P2: I believe that infinite God created this universum.

Okay, to the conclusion:

They both believe in something that has always existed, and that goes beyond the understanding of human mind. So in other words, they both believe in the same thing actually?

Just think what created god...
Nono, God has always been there....

Just think how old universum is, or will be...
It's infinite...

At the same time I realized that our mind is infinite, and we can not get out of it, and that is why we dont understand it.




Space just keeps recreating itself in certain areas. Cellular Astrum is infinite in time and Space. Something that just 'is'. We fear these thoughts because we seem too not understand what it means.

As our Ego can not understand something that has no beginning or end. But the soul understands.

Embrace what you fear and embarrass the knowing of that fear. You should embrace what you know. Change that unknown gap into known.
You embrace the fear. Turn that fear into knowing.

Also the Wu Tei is. Seek and you will find.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2651788 - 05/07/04 10:02 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quite true! One GOD, one Universe. In this light, it seems like the 'reason' the Church Fathers included four Gospels in the cannon - because of four cardinal points and four Aristotelian elements. Seems 'reasonable.' On the other hand, a powerful image from a Nova science show in the early 80's about 10 to the minus 43rd second of creation stands out in my mind, when the Universe was the size of an electron, a golf ball, a beach ball...Whatever the development - Universe or Multiverse - the relation between creation and Creator is still the point.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlineendokrin
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2651926 - 05/07/04 10:51 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

But where did the universe being? Before the Big Bang, when all was infinitely dense, what created that matter? And if it was created by a God, how and why. Has he been sitting around forever?

I believe "all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration"
Reading about superstrings reinforces this for me.

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InvisibleMr_Gubjet


Registered: 03/18/04
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Loc: Infinitus Kosmos
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: endokrin]
    #2651995 - 05/07/04 11:12 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

endokrin said:
But where did the universe being? Before the Big Bang, when all was infinitely dense, what created that matter? And if it was created by a God, how and why. Has he been sitting around forever?

I believe "all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration"
Reading about superstrings reinforces this for me.




There was no before. It just 'was'. The Big Bang happening over and over in different places in infinite Space. I guess timelessness is a simple element of Space.

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Offlined33p
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: endokrin]
    #2652028 - 05/07/04 11:21 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

One of the best summations i've heard was by trendal a while ago either here or in sci forum. Before the big bang it was energy and the singularity formed. Something like that.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2652057 - 05/07/04 11:29 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I've always thought of the universe as infinite, despite this membrane whether it exists or not.

Like a loop.


To put it as simply as I can, the smallest unit will always be bigger than the biggest unit.


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If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #2652086 - 05/07/04 11:37 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah.  Daba knows what that is called.  I forget what that is, at the moment.  I don't suppose this tequila has anything to do with memory loss, d'ya think?  :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Offlined33p
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: nubious]
    #2652114 - 05/07/04 11:44 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

nubious said:
Quote:

d33p said:
Why do so many people believe in time?




Einstein said it best, "Time is only an illusion, no matter how persistant".

Try explaining your day to day requirements without the use of time, then ask yourself the question again.




Time is simply an illusion of movement. In an atomic clock the vibrations of an atom are measured. The atom vibrates but there is nothing physical between those vibrations. As if there was no separate dimension of time and space so it was just blank. The differece would be like comparing a cube with 3 axis to 2 a square with 2 axis.

The idea of time seems so absurd to me. Right up there with creationism. Time introces many problems for the universe which would seem to imply there are dimensions within dimensions. A plane which would somehow flow. Just doesnt seem right to me, but im probably wrong.

Also is that new space mission trying to prove einstien correct by showing that time and space is a dimension bu showing that it can be bent my extreme gravity? What extacly do the balls measure that is so precise?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Offlined33p
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: d33p]
    #2652125 - 05/07/04 11:46 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
WHERE DID THE GASSES COME FROM, scientists like to debunk creation with big bang, but dont they ever think " hey, where did those molecule atoms come from that combined to create life/existance".

This is actually a well understood process.

In the beginning (sorry to sound like a bible :smirk:) there was only energy. The first few moments of the universe were much too hot for matter to exist. Eventually, the universe had expanded to a point (and thus cooled down enough) where the energy could begin to condense into matter. At first this matter consisted only of electrons and free quarks, as the energy level was still too high for quarks to combine. After a few minutes or hours the universe had cooled such that quarks could combine into protons. Now the universe consisted of a very hot cloud of mostly hydrogen plasma (hydrogen being a single proton). After yet more time the temp lowered to where electrons could be captured by the protons - forming the first atoms (mostly hydrogen, with some helium and a small ammount of lithium).

Next gravitational waves, set up during the first few moments of the big bang and reverberating since, caused the formless cloud of hydrogen to begin collapsing into various points. These points formed the first galaxies, and in these galaxies the first stars formed. These stars were extremely massive, and consisted only of hydrogen.

The stars combined hydrogen in their cores into helium, as is done in all stars to this day. Nearing the end of their lives, when the star's hydrogen core began to run out, helium began fusing into heavier elements. This process continued until iron was reached, which cannot be fused by stars. When the core of the star was almost entirely iron, it collapsed under the intense gravitational force and then rebounded in a massive explosion (a supernova). During this intense explosion, much more massive elements are formed out of the iron. In fact all of the naturally-occuring elements which are heavier than iron have been formed in this way.

After 10-15 billion years, we have our galaxy the Milky Way. On one of the spiral arms a new star was forming from the remnants of a supernova. Around the star, heavier elements formed into rock bodies. The third from the star, Sol, happened to be at the right distance from the star for liquid water to occur.

This planet, of course, is the Earth.

And that's the story of Creation, as told by science :wink:




--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Mr_Gubjet]
    #2652998 - 05/08/04 10:09 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Space is not infinite. Space is expanding, but not into more space. There IS no space beyond the boundary. Space means 'extension,' and it is a physical dimension. Beyond the boundary, I believe the Reality is, rather, Metaphysical [prior to physics] - which is to say, GOD.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: endokrin]
    #2653077 - 05/08/04 10:47 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Someone once asked St. Augustine (c. 4th century) what GOD was doing before 'He' created the heavens and the Earth. Augustine supposedly replied: "Preparing Hell for people who ask presumptuous questions like yours."

It defies imagination to create a model because image means extension, dimension. A singularity has zero dimensions. It is a mathematical point - literally. It is smaller than an electron. If one imagines an electron, or a point, it must be imagined against a background of some sort, which would mean that there need exist MORE than just the point. One cannot imagine, or picture such a condition. Of course, when one achieves 'one-pointedness' in Yoga, and arrives at the state of Sat Chit Ananda [Being-Knowledge-Bliss] - the Gnosis [Knowledge] of Yoga, then one is said to arrive at Union with GOD. One becomes 'the Point' alone, or, all-one, which again IS 'the point.'

The Kabbalists say that the Eternal Godhead - THAT which transcends even the personal GOD - withdrew or 'contracted' 'His' Infinite and Eternal Essence, omnidirectionally, like an amoeba contracts its cytoplasm to create a 'contractile vacuole' within itself. Only GOD contracted only enough of 'His' Essence to form - yup - a singularity. This 'Void,' this 'no thing' was " without form and void...and the Spirit of GOD moved upon the face of the [cosmic] waters. And GOD said, 'Let there be light: and there was light'." (Genesis 1:1-3). The Eternal Ideas began to take manifestation outside of the Divine Essence (Primal Being) through what Philo of Alexandria and later, Christians called the Logos (Expressive Being). While still 'suffused with' or 'present with' the Divine Nature (GOD's immanence), creation takes existence 'external to' GOD's Essence. The receding horizon of the Universe's boundary (or membrane) is expanding 'into the Divine Essence' which is Infinite and Eternal and can accommodate the expansion ad infinitum.

What happens to the expanding Universe is a question of course. Does it expand forever? Does entropy set in and does gravitation cause slowing, stoppage and then reversal so that the Universe collapses again into a singularity? If that occurs, will time run backwards? Will the creation then occur again, ad infinitum as the Oscillation Theory suggests (which is very mechanical-sounding)? Will the physical Universe be 'transubstantiated' into the Body of Christ (which Pierre Teilhard de Chardin the Catholic mystic said), or the Body of Adam Kadmon in Kabbalism? Is this not another unanswerable question? Is it not presumptuous to think that a human mind can contain the Divine Plan? Who still thinks that the Universe, origin to dissolution is just a big 'clockworks' that can be comprehended, and purpose known while yet human? Silly person.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2653131 - 05/08/04 11:04 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

> Space is not infinite. Space is expanding, but not into more space. There IS no space beyond the boundary.

This is one of my favorite concepts to contemplate. The universe requires itself to define itself. Although the universe is finite, it has no definite bound...


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinerepemon
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2655955 - 05/09/04 06:08 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

So anything that can be true, whether it was experienced by one or many, will be true. hrhr


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- When the time stops, evil ones will be pointed out for all to see.

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OfflineRedo
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2656643 - 05/09/04 12:18 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Time is movement in space, if there was no movement there would be no time. Its already proven that time can be speed up by moving faster. The universe is expanding faster and faster, but does that mean space is expanding or just what is inside space?

E = MC^2 means that energy = matter * constant^2, so at the beggining there was energy turning into matter, kind of freaky isnt it :smile:.

But irregardless, that dosent say that space was created with energy or matter, but however both energy and matter manipulate space.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Redo]
    #2657752 - 05/09/04 05:28 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Its already proven that time can be speed up by moving faster.

Actually it's the other way around. It has already been proven that time is slowed down by movement.

Time is not movement through space. Time is another dimension, just like the three that make up space (length, width, height). Think of time and the spatial dimensions as being perpendicular to eachother. There is a maximum speed which you can travel through spacetime (the combination of space and time) and that speed is equal to the speed of light. Because space and time are "perpendicular" to eachother, you can either travel at c (speed of light) through space...or you can travel at c through time. If you are sitting COMPLETELY still in space, you are moving through the temporal dimension at the speed of light. As soon as you begin to move through space, some of your velocity through time is moved to velocity through space.

So your speed through spacetime always equals the speed of light. That speed is split between time and space to make up your velocity through spacetime (a vector quantity).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineRedo
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: trendal]
    #2658387 - 05/09/04 08:30 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, sorry, your right.

"The Lorentz factor can be observed today. We have taken very accurate clocks up into an SR-71 blackbird, while leaving one on the ground. A pilot moving very fast, lost .0001 of a second! We could currently travel as fast as one-quarter c if we would like. At that speed one would lose .03 of every second. The closer we get to c, the more time slows. Theoretically, an object moving at c would not move forward in time, because the Lorentz factor is zero. It would seem logical that an object moving faster than c would go backward in time. (Einre)"

So, if the speed of light has relativly no time, then shouldnt moving around 0 have relativly no speed. We are matter, not energy, so we dont always have to move at our matter x c^2.

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Offlinedaba
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: trendal]
    #2658397 - 05/09/04 08:32 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I was pondering your reply for a few minutes, trendal my friend, without reading the last two sentences of your post. It boiled down to a simple Cartesian plane with X as space and Y as time. Simply put, there were many ambivalent gestures between you and I... which are all insignificant now.

After reading the last two sentences, it occurred to me that this was the same cognition that was used to derive e=mc^2!

Interesting, I haven't even read the first post.

*Addendum: Or any other posts for that matter! :lol: :rolleyes:


--------------------
Fold for The Shroomery!

Edited by daba (05/09/04 08:35 PM)

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Redo]
    #2658414 - 05/09/04 08:35 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

So, if the speed of light has relativly no time, then shouldnt moving around 0 have relativly no speed. We are matter, not energy, so we dont always have to move at our matter x c^2.

The speed of light is just a "speed". Particles of light (photons) do not move through time at all. For them time stands still. Not a single second has passed since the beginning of the universe for a photon.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: daba]
    #2658422 - 05/09/04 08:36 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Yes! The idea is analogous to a simple cartesian plane!

I sometimes use a soccer field as an analogy, with the sidelines as Time and the width of the field as Space. :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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