Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
Offlinerepemon
journeyman
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 158
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually?
    #2621200 - 04/30/04 11:56 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Okay, two persons talk to each other.

P1: I believe that the universum has always existed. It is just infinite.

P2: I believe that infinite God created this universum.

Okay, to the conclusion:

They both believe in something that has always existed, and that goes beyond the understanding of human mind. So in other words, they both believe in the same thing actually?

Just think what created god...
Nono, God has always been there....

Just think how old universum is, or will be...
It's infinite...

At the same time I realized that our mind is infinite, and we can not get out of it, and that is why we dont understand it.


--------------------
- When the time stops, evil ones will be pointed out for all to see.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLux
member
Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 189
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2621222 - 04/30/04 12:00 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

What if the universe and everything within is compromised of what you would call god? What if time is simply a layer of perception? Haha, speaking of which, deja vu...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerepemon
journeyman
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 158
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Lux]
    #2621263 - 04/30/04 12:08 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Well, we can believe in anything we want.

Just that the problem with questions about faith is that as there are thousands of religions at earth, and there is no way to decide witch is the right one, wouldnt they negate each other?

What I'm trying to say, is, that it seems so likely that we are only prisoners of our own mind. And as we are not able to experience world without our mind, we are never free before we die (and why is freedom so respected anyways :laugh:), and the heaven is actually what we are experiencing right now. Each individual makes the world of his own, and it can be a world where anything really is possible.

Just theorys though, I dont believe I believe, looping again :wink:


--------------------
- When the time stops, evil ones will be pointed out for all to see.

Edited by repemon (04/30/04 12:08 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepeleg
Gypsy
Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 535
Loc: Christ Light
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2621297 - 04/30/04 12:19 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

God has always been and will always be, the universe is not so He created it and all that is in it,creation still goes on and one day the earth and universe will cease to exist and there will be a new one :grin:


--------------------
"Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLux
member
Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 189
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: peleg]
    #2621317 - 04/30/04 12:23 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

peleg said:
God has always been and will always be, the universe is not so He created it and all that is in it,creation still goes on and one day the earth and universe will cease to exist and there will be a new one :grin:



How do you know this?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepeleg
Gypsy
Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 535
Loc: Christ Light
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Lux]
    #2621458 - 04/30/04 12:52 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

faith,i belive it,it's all self-evident


--------------------
"Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLux
member
Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 189
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: peleg]
    #2621600 - 04/30/04 01:22 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Faith is not knowing. What's all self-evident exactly?

Don't take this the wrong way, you are free to believe what you'd like, I'm just curious.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleNariusFractal
Sat Chit Ananda
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/19/02
Posts: 804
Loc: USA
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2621606 - 04/30/04 01:23 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Yah, maybe we are essence of being, and a creator put us in the mind in order to experience seperately.  Or maybe we chose this body, instead of a "spook in the sky" creator, man is the creator of this reality. 

To an extent we are the creators of what's around us: streets, cities, laws, social hierarchies, and on and on.  I am not so positive that we create the materials to create these things however.  Michael Talbot's, "The Holographic Universe" suggests that perhaps we do create the universe -- in our minds.  Great book.

Anyways, the only thing I know for sure is that there is what Terence Mckenna called the experienced "seamless plenum of being" that is relentless in it's presence.  It is presence I guess.  Back to the essence of being that we are.  This is likely infinite.  Not my indiviudal ego of course, but rather the infinite consciousness, God, the universe, whatever you call it.

Crazy stuff awesome thread. :mushroom2:


--------------------
You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2622338 - 04/30/04 03:44 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Simple logic here.

If God is infinite, then the concept of God creating something separate from itself is impossible and ridiculous. If (as some religions believe) creation is somehow separate from God, then God itself cannot be infinite. Therefore, if the universe is infinite, God and the universe must be one and the same. If the universe is not infinite...?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2623238 - 04/30/04 07:52 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

i can't refer to "the universe" or "the everything" as "god" because too many other people don't see "god" as "the universe" or "the everything."

I hope that made sense...... basically I'm saying that I don't like the word "God" simply because it is too vague and has too many different meanings for too many different people.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerepemon
journeyman
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 158
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2641427 - 05/05/04 11:47 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Yes there is definately too many meanings for God to be used in a conversation.

Quiz:

In the beginning of everything there was nothing, expect for the knowledge that there is nothing. And at the moment of the realization that there ?s nothing, there suddenly is something (the realization). It still exists even though there was nobody experiencing it? Now, what if that started what we might call "evolution". What if the evolution of everything simply started from knowledge, instead of something that could be in material form.

I've been very interested in this question because I realised that in the Western culture the beginning (what you can call "Big Bang" if you like) of everything starts as a material explosion, but what if there was some sort of spiritual world which created eventually the material world (holograph of the spiritual world which is created in the mind?) I dont know if this comes close to any of the philosophys that are already there. Tell me if it does because of the interest I have for this topic :smile:


--------------------
- When the time stops, evil ones will be pointed out for all to see.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: ]
    #2643592 - 05/05/04 10:09 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

The Universe is bounded. The estimate is now something around 15 billion light years. The boundary is impenetrable because there is 'no thing' beyond the expanding boundary. Overcoming the expanding boundary would then move one along the curvature of the expanding bubble, not through it, because one would only penetrate into GOD, and leave space-time, and GOD doesn't admit materiality into the Divine Essence.

'No thing' is called 'Ein Sof' (the Limitless) in Jewish Kabbalism, and maintains that the bubble of our expanding Universe, which emerged from a Singularity (Tsimtsum - the Divine Contraction), is surrounded by the Infinite Godhead into which our finite Universe can theoretically expand eternally, without diminishing GOD's Infinity. Of course, there is the Hindu notion of reabsorption, of the collapsing Universe back into the singularity (as Oscillating Universe theory) only to repeat again. However, in Kabbalism, we humans (and ostensibly, other sentient beings) allows GOD to experience GOD through our awareness. So, GOD actually 'needs' us, rather than creation being a matter of the nature of GOD to create.

In a panentheistic notion, GOD is present throughout creation, yet distinct from the energies that constitute creation (down to Quarks and such). In a pantheistic notion (such as in the Bhagavad Gita) GOD is identical to the spiritual AND material energies that exist. Kabbalism and Judaism as well as Christianity is panENtheistic.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCather
journeyman
Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 91
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2644210 - 05/06/04 02:46 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

So we are inside god's infinite head , We are one of his thoughts and as god is infinite so it is possible for us (the material universe) to be infinite and to have infinite thoughts of our own ?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2644623 - 05/06/04 08:08 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I sometimes think of God as interchangeable with the Universe. Maybe God created the Universe to give us somewhere to "be". Maybe God co-exists with the Universe. Maybe God is parallel to the Universe, and God isn't time/space, whereas the Universe is.

But I agree, too, with what Markos wrote.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineturboturd
stragler

Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 17
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Frog]
    #2646647 - 05/06/04 04:52 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

"In theory you may think of God as the Creator, and he is the personal creator of Paradise and the central universe of perfection, but the universes of time and space are all created and organized by the Paradise corps of the Creator Sons. The Universal Father is not the personal creator of the local universe of Nebadon; the universe in which you live is the creation of his Son Michael. Though the Father does not personally create the evolutionary universes, he does control them in many of their universal relationships and in certain of their manifestations of physical, mindal, and spiritual energies. God the Father is the personal creator of the Paradise universe and, in association with the Eternal Son, the creator of all other personal universe Creators. "

an excellent paragraph from a so-far good book, 'Urantia'

I believe that GOD exists outside of time-space, but also co-exists with all.

Frog, sounds like you've read this book?


--------------------
'In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti'

don't wig out on the turd.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: turboturd]
    #2647086 - 05/06/04 06:48 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Why do so many people believe in time?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Cather]
    #2647968 - 05/06/04 09:37 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Yes to the first part. The creation is more or less the externalized ideas of GOD - external, that is, from the Divine Essence but not the Divine Nature. The possessive quality that you suggest - infinite thoughts of our own - doesn't resonate well with the notion that infinity is a property of GOD, BUT, as St. Paul said: "In Christ [GOD] we live, and move and have out being." Our various human dimensions are of varying 'densities' of Reality, with our most essential Selves partaking of the Divine Nature. While embracing the whole of our being from physical to animal soul to human soul, to mind, to spirit, we must understand that only the highest stage (like a multi-stage rocket) gets to GOD. We must jettison the lower stages after they burn out and have gotten us clear of the planetary gravitation - the involvement in the world as young vital human mammals. Our animal souls and bodily powers diminish with age and our spiritual Selves need transcend to Realize themselves at-one-with GOD.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: d33p]
    #2649903 - 05/07/04 12:21 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Why do so many people believe in time?




Einstein said it best, "Time is only an illusion, no matter how persistant".

Try explaining your day to day requirements without the use of time, then ask yourself the question again.


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: turboturd]
    #2649965 - 05/07/04 12:39 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

turboturd said:
"In theory you may think of God as the Creator, and he is the personal creator of Paradise and the central universe of perfection, but the universes of time and space are all created and organized by the Paradise corps of the Creator Sons. The Universal Father is not the personal creator of the local universe of Nebadon; the universe in which you live is the creation of his Son Michael. Though the Father does not personally create the evolutionary universes, he does control them in many of their universal relationships and in certain of their manifestations of physical, mindal, and spiritual energies. God the Father is the personal creator of the Paradise universe and, in association with the Eternal Son, the creator of all other personal universe Creators. "

an excellent paragraph from a so-far good book, 'Urantia'

I believe that GOD exists outside of time-space, but also co-exists with all.

Frog, sounds like you've read this book?




No, but maybe I need to take a look, eh? 

I started having thoughts about God and the Universe about 2 years ago, when my world fell apart.  This is my quest, now.  God/Universe.

I'm always finding out that my "original" thoughts ain't so original.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2651115 - 05/07/04 06:09 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Universe is bounded.




Dont the latest funky physicists refer to this as the membrane?

Quote:

The boundary is impenetrable because there is 'no thing' beyond the expanding boundary.




I think m-theory suggests that our boundary compares to the membrane of a bubble in a bath and outside of our membrane there could exist many, many other universes...gotta love those freaky physicists!!

It seems that the religous ideas you describe all seem to see our universe as the only one expanding and contracting within the "godhead". Perhaphs many universes exist in a bubblebath of universi. Perhaps this kind of thinking will only make people brains hurt!!


--------------------
Always Smi2le

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2651533 - 05/07/04 08:22 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

"but what if there was some sort of spiritual world which created eventually the material world"

Well then that spiritual world is "something," requiring another further-back explanation of what started everything.... I would ask you "ok so what started this spiritual world that started the material world?"


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMr_Gubjet


Registered: 03/18/04 Happy 20th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 323
Loc: Infinitus Kosmos
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2651597 - 05/07/04 08:53 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

repemon said:
Okay, two persons talk to each other.

P1: I believe that the universum has always existed. It is just infinite.

P2: I believe that infinite God created this universum.

Okay, to the conclusion:

They both believe in something that has always existed, and that goes beyond the understanding of human mind. So in other words, they both believe in the same thing actually?

Just think what created god...
Nono, God has always been there....

Just think how old universum is, or will be...
It's infinite...

At the same time I realized that our mind is infinite, and we can not get out of it, and that is why we dont understand it.




Space just keeps recreating itself in certain areas. Cellular Astrum is infinite in time and Space. Something that just 'is'. We fear these thoughts because we seem too not understand what it means.

As our Ego can not understand something that has no beginning or end. But the soul understands.

Embrace what you fear and embarrass the knowing of that fear. You should embrace what you know. Change that unknown gap into known.
You embrace the fear. Turn that fear into knowing.

Also the Wu Tei is. Seek and you will find.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2651788 - 05/07/04 10:02 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quite true! One GOD, one Universe. In this light, it seems like the 'reason' the Church Fathers included four Gospels in the cannon - because of four cardinal points and four Aristotelian elements. Seems 'reasonable.' On the other hand, a powerful image from a Nova science show in the early 80's about 10 to the minus 43rd second of creation stands out in my mind, when the Universe was the size of an electron, a golf ball, a beach ball...Whatever the development - Universe or Multiverse - the relation between creation and Creator is still the point.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineendokrin
Stranger

Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 142
Loc: SouthEast
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2651926 - 05/07/04 10:51 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

But where did the universe being? Before the Big Bang, when all was infinitely dense, what created that matter? And if it was created by a God, how and why. Has he been sitting around forever?

I believe "all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration"
Reading about superstrings reinforces this for me.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMr_Gubjet


Registered: 03/18/04 Happy 20th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 323
Loc: Infinitus Kosmos
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: endokrin]
    #2651995 - 05/07/04 11:12 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

endokrin said:
But where did the universe being? Before the Big Bang, when all was infinitely dense, what created that matter? And if it was created by a God, how and why. Has he been sitting around forever?

I believe "all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration"
Reading about superstrings reinforces this for me.




There was no before. It just 'was'. The Big Bang happening over and over in different places in infinite Space. I guess timelessness is a simple element of Space.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: endokrin]
    #2652028 - 05/07/04 11:21 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

One of the best summations i've heard was by trendal a while ago either here or in sci forum. Before the big bang it was energy and the singularity formed. Something like that.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
and fell

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 537
Loc: MI
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2652057 - 05/07/04 11:29 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I've always thought of the universe as infinite, despite this membrane whether it exists or not.

Like a loop.


To put it as simply as I can, the smallest unit will always be bigger than the biggest unit.


--------------------
If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #2652086 - 05/07/04 11:37 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah.  Daba knows what that is called.  I forget what that is, at the moment.  I don't suppose this tequila has anything to do with memory loss, d'ya think?  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: nubious]
    #2652114 - 05/07/04 11:44 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

nubious said:
Quote:

d33p said:
Why do so many people believe in time?




Einstein said it best, "Time is only an illusion, no matter how persistant".

Try explaining your day to day requirements without the use of time, then ask yourself the question again.




Time is simply an illusion of movement. In an atomic clock the vibrations of an atom are measured. The atom vibrates but there is nothing physical between those vibrations. As if there was no separate dimension of time and space so it was just blank. The differece would be like comparing a cube with 3 axis to 2 a square with 2 axis.

The idea of time seems so absurd to me. Right up there with creationism. Time introces many problems for the universe which would seem to imply there are dimensions within dimensions. A plane which would somehow flow. Just doesnt seem right to me, but im probably wrong.

Also is that new space mission trying to prove einstien correct by showing that time and space is a dimension bu showing that it can be bent my extreme gravity? What extacly do the balls measure that is so precise?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: d33p]
    #2652125 - 05/07/04 11:46 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
WHERE DID THE GASSES COME FROM, scientists like to debunk creation with big bang, but dont they ever think " hey, where did those molecule atoms come from that combined to create life/existance".

This is actually a well understood process.

In the beginning (sorry to sound like a bible :smirk:) there was only energy. The first few moments of the universe were much too hot for matter to exist. Eventually, the universe had expanded to a point (and thus cooled down enough) where the energy could begin to condense into matter. At first this matter consisted only of electrons and free quarks, as the energy level was still too high for quarks to combine. After a few minutes or hours the universe had cooled such that quarks could combine into protons. Now the universe consisted of a very hot cloud of mostly hydrogen plasma (hydrogen being a single proton). After yet more time the temp lowered to where electrons could be captured by the protons - forming the first atoms (mostly hydrogen, with some helium and a small ammount of lithium).

Next gravitational waves, set up during the first few moments of the big bang and reverberating since, caused the formless cloud of hydrogen to begin collapsing into various points. These points formed the first galaxies, and in these galaxies the first stars formed. These stars were extremely massive, and consisted only of hydrogen.

The stars combined hydrogen in their cores into helium, as is done in all stars to this day. Nearing the end of their lives, when the star's hydrogen core began to run out, helium began fusing into heavier elements. This process continued until iron was reached, which cannot be fused by stars. When the core of the star was almost entirely iron, it collapsed under the intense gravitational force and then rebounded in a massive explosion (a supernova). During this intense explosion, much more massive elements are formed out of the iron. In fact all of the naturally-occuring elements which are heavier than iron have been formed in this way.

After 10-15 billion years, we have our galaxy the Milky Way. On one of the spiral arms a new star was forming from the remnants of a supernova. Around the star, heavier elements formed into rock bodies. The third from the star, Sol, happened to be at the right distance from the star for liquid water to occur.

This planet, of course, is the Earth.

And that's the story of Creation, as told by science :wink:




--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Mr_Gubjet]
    #2652998 - 05/08/04 10:09 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Space is not infinite. Space is expanding, but not into more space. There IS no space beyond the boundary. Space means 'extension,' and it is a physical dimension. Beyond the boundary, I believe the Reality is, rather, Metaphysical [prior to physics] - which is to say, GOD.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: endokrin]
    #2653077 - 05/08/04 10:47 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Someone once asked St. Augustine (c. 4th century) what GOD was doing before 'He' created the heavens and the Earth. Augustine supposedly replied: "Preparing Hell for people who ask presumptuous questions like yours."

It defies imagination to create a model because image means extension, dimension. A singularity has zero dimensions. It is a mathematical point - literally. It is smaller than an electron. If one imagines an electron, or a point, it must be imagined against a background of some sort, which would mean that there need exist MORE than just the point. One cannot imagine, or picture such a condition. Of course, when one achieves 'one-pointedness' in Yoga, and arrives at the state of Sat Chit Ananda [Being-Knowledge-Bliss] - the Gnosis [Knowledge] of Yoga, then one is said to arrive at Union with GOD. One becomes 'the Point' alone, or, all-one, which again IS 'the point.'

The Kabbalists say that the Eternal Godhead - THAT which transcends even the personal GOD - withdrew or 'contracted' 'His' Infinite and Eternal Essence, omnidirectionally, like an amoeba contracts its cytoplasm to create a 'contractile vacuole' within itself. Only GOD contracted only enough of 'His' Essence to form - yup - a singularity. This 'Void,' this 'no thing' was " without form and void...and the Spirit of GOD moved upon the face of the [cosmic] waters. And GOD said, 'Let there be light: and there was light'." (Genesis 1:1-3). The Eternal Ideas began to take manifestation outside of the Divine Essence (Primal Being) through what Philo of Alexandria and later, Christians called the Logos (Expressive Being). While still 'suffused with' or 'present with' the Divine Nature (GOD's immanence), creation takes existence 'external to' GOD's Essence. The receding horizon of the Universe's boundary (or membrane) is expanding 'into the Divine Essence' which is Infinite and Eternal and can accommodate the expansion ad infinitum.

What happens to the expanding Universe is a question of course. Does it expand forever? Does entropy set in and does gravitation cause slowing, stoppage and then reversal so that the Universe collapses again into a singularity? If that occurs, will time run backwards? Will the creation then occur again, ad infinitum as the Oscillation Theory suggests (which is very mechanical-sounding)? Will the physical Universe be 'transubstantiated' into the Body of Christ (which Pierre Teilhard de Chardin the Catholic mystic said), or the Body of Adam Kadmon in Kabbalism? Is this not another unanswerable question? Is it not presumptuous to think that a human mind can contain the Divine Plan? Who still thinks that the Universe, origin to dissolution is just a big 'clockworks' that can be comprehended, and purpose known while yet human? Silly person.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2653131 - 05/08/04 11:04 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

> Space is not infinite. Space is expanding, but not into more space. There IS no space beyond the boundary.

This is one of my favorite concepts to contemplate. The universe requires itself to define itself. Although the universe is finite, it has no definite bound...


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerepemon
journeyman
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 158
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2655955 - 05/09/04 06:08 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

So anything that can be true, whether it was experienced by one or many, will be true. hrhr


--------------------
- When the time stops, evil ones will be pointed out for all to see.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedo
CTA

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2656643 - 05/09/04 12:18 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Time is movement in space, if there was no movement there would be no time. Its already proven that time can be speed up by moving faster. The universe is expanding faster and faster, but does that mean space is expanding or just what is inside space?

E = MC^2 means that energy = matter * constant^2, so at the beggining there was energy turning into matter, kind of freaky isnt it :smile:.

But irregardless, that dosent say that space was created with energy or matter, but however both energy and matter manipulate space.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Redo]
    #2657752 - 05/09/04 05:28 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Its already proven that time can be speed up by moving faster.

Actually it's the other way around. It has already been proven that time is slowed down by movement.

Time is not movement through space. Time is another dimension, just like the three that make up space (length, width, height). Think of time and the spatial dimensions as being perpendicular to eachother. There is a maximum speed which you can travel through spacetime (the combination of space and time) and that speed is equal to the speed of light. Because space and time are "perpendicular" to eachother, you can either travel at c (speed of light) through space...or you can travel at c through time. If you are sitting COMPLETELY still in space, you are moving through the temporal dimension at the speed of light. As soon as you begin to move through space, some of your velocity through time is moved to velocity through space.

So your speed through spacetime always equals the speed of light. That speed is split between time and space to make up your velocity through spacetime (a vector quantity).


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedo
CTA

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: trendal]
    #2658387 - 05/09/04 08:30 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, sorry, your right.

"The Lorentz factor can be observed today. We have taken very accurate clocks up into an SR-71 blackbird, while leaving one on the ground. A pilot moving very fast, lost .0001 of a second! We could currently travel as fast as one-quarter c if we would like. At that speed one would lose .03 of every second. The closer we get to c, the more time slows. Theoretically, an object moving at c would not move forward in time, because the Lorentz factor is zero. It would seem logical that an object moving faster than c would go backward in time. (Einre)"

So, if the speed of light has relativly no time, then shouldnt moving around 0 have relativly no speed. We are matter, not energy, so we dont always have to move at our matter x c^2.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedaba
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/30/02
Posts: 3,881
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: trendal]
    #2658397 - 05/09/04 08:32 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I was pondering your reply for a few minutes, trendal my friend, without reading the last two sentences of your post. It boiled down to a simple Cartesian plane with X as space and Y as time. Simply put, there were many ambivalent gestures between you and I... which are all insignificant now.

After reading the last two sentences, it occurred to me that this was the same cognition that was used to derive e=mc^2!

Interesting, I haven't even read the first post.

*Addendum: Or any other posts for that matter! :lol: :rolleyes:


--------------------
Fold for The Shroomery!

Edited by daba (05/09/04 08:35 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Redo]
    #2658414 - 05/09/04 08:35 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

So, if the speed of light has relativly no time, then shouldnt moving around 0 have relativly no speed. We are matter, not energy, so we dont always have to move at our matter x c^2.

The speed of light is just a "speed". Particles of light (photons) do not move through time at all. For them time stands still. Not a single second has passed since the beginning of the universe for a photon.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: daba]
    #2658422 - 05/09/04 08:36 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Yes! The idea is analogous to a simple cartesian plane!

I sometimes use a soccer field as an analogy, with the sidelines as Time and the width of the field as Space. :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedo
CTA

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: trendal]
    #2658435 - 05/09/04 08:38 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Im talking about mass moving at the speed of light, not light itself ;D.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Redo]
    #2658449 - 05/09/04 10:43 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

It would not experience any movement through time :wink:

Though it's technically impossible for mass to travel at the speed of light...


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTheShroomHermit
Divine Hermit of the Everything
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 7,575
Loc: border of Canada and Mexi...
Last seen: 9 months, 21 hours
Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2661565 - 05/11/04 12:04 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Religion doesn't strive to accurately reflect actuality. In fact, when actuality comes into conflict with religion, often the religion attempts to denounce it as blasphemy. This doesn't allow for change, or an accurate reflection of reality. Thats why I give a  :thumbup: to science. It's truth for everybody, not dellusional truth for the individual. I think a common understanding of how the universe works might bring people closer together and conflicts caused by ideas factualized on an individual basis (read beliefs) may end all together. The decline of religion since the advent of science gives me hope for the future.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* More on Descartes UrQuattro 998 8 06/05/02 05:41 AM
by Papaver
* How will it all end?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Havoc 7,000 98 09/07/08 02:19 AM
by deCypher
* Religion and God
( 1 2 3 all )
RandalFlagg 3,926 40 09/19/03 01:49 PM
by Clover
* Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions...
( 1 2 all )
Joshua 6,388 30 04/12/02 03:47 PM
by skaMariaPastora
* Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
World Spirit 14,269 176 01/22/03 09:14 AM
by World Spirit
* Dose God exist? Take a look around.
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Bavet 6,996 68 02/06/03 10:46 AM
by Strumpling
* God Cannot Exist
( 1 2 all )
jim_dewit 5,365 39 08/22/02 06:29 PM
by Xlea321
* God (again) friartuck 727 3 04/03/03 04:21 PM
by friartuck

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,444 topic views. 1 members, 6 guests and 25 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.047 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 14 queries.