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Offlinerepemon
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Registered: 04/25/04
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Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually?
    #2621200 - 04/30/04 01:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, two persons talk to each other.

P1: I believe that the universum has always existed. It is just infinite.

P2: I believe that infinite God created this universum.

Okay, to the conclusion:

They both believe in something that has always existed, and that goes beyond the understanding of human mind. So in other words, they both believe in the same thing actually?

Just think what created god...
Nono, God has always been there....

Just think how old universum is, or will be...
It's infinite...

At the same time I realized that our mind is infinite, and we can not get out of it, and that is why we dont understand it.


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- When the time stops, evil ones will be pointed out for all to see.


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OfflineLux
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2621222 - 04/30/04 02:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What if the universe and everything within is compromised of what you would call god? What if time is simply a layer of perception? Haha, speaking of which, deja vu...


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Offlinerepemon
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Lux]
    #2621263 - 04/30/04 02:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well, we can believe in anything we want.

Just that the problem with questions about faith is that as there are thousands of religions at earth, and there is no way to decide witch is the right one, wouldnt they negate each other?

What I'm trying to say, is, that it seems so likely that we are only prisoners of our own mind. And as we are not able to experience world without our mind, we are never free before we die (and why is freedom so respected anyways :laugh:), and the heaven is actually what we are experiencing right now. Each individual makes the world of his own, and it can be a world where anything really is possible.

Just theorys though, I dont believe I believe, looping again :wink:


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- When the time stops, evil ones will be pointed out for all to see.


Edited by repemon (04/30/04 02:08 PM)


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Offlinepeleg
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2621297 - 04/30/04 02:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

God has always been and will always be, the universe is not so He created it and all that is in it,creation still goes on and one day the earth and universe will cease to exist and there will be a new one :grin:


--------------------
"Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....


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OfflineLux
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: peleg]
    #2621317 - 04/30/04 02:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

peleg said:
God has always been and will always be, the universe is not so He created it and all that is in it,creation still goes on and one day the earth and universe will cease to exist and there will be a new one :grin:



How do you know this?


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Offlinepeleg
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Lux]
    #2621458 - 04/30/04 02:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

faith,i belive it,it's all self-evident


--------------------
"Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....


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OfflineLux
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: peleg]
    #2621600 - 04/30/04 03:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Faith is not knowing. What's all self-evident exactly?

Don't take this the wrong way, you are free to believe what you'd like, I'm just curious.


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2621606 - 04/30/04 03:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yah, maybe we are essence of being, and a creator put us in the mind in order to experience seperately.  Or maybe we chose this body, instead of a "spook in the sky" creator, man is the creator of this reality. 

To an extent we are the creators of what's around us: streets, cities, laws, social hierarchies, and on and on.  I am not so positive that we create the materials to create these things however.  Michael Talbot's, "The Holographic Universe" suggests that perhaps we do create the universe -- in our minds.  Great book.

Anyways, the only thing I know for sure is that there is what Terence Mckenna called the experienced "seamless plenum of being" that is relentless in it's presence.  It is presence I guess.  Back to the essence of being that we are.  This is likely infinite.  Not my indiviudal ego of course, but rather the infinite consciousness, God, the universe, whatever you call it.

Crazy stuff awesome thread. :mushroom2:


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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Anonymous

Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2622338 - 04/30/04 05:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Simple logic here.

If God is infinite, then the concept of God creating something separate from itself is impossible and ridiculous. If (as some religions believe) creation is somehow separate from God, then God itself cannot be infinite. Therefore, if the universe is infinite, God and the universe must be one and the same. If the universe is not infinite...?


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2623238 - 04/30/04 09:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

i can't refer to "the universe" or "the everything" as "god" because too many other people don't see "god" as "the universe" or "the everything."

I hope that made sense...... basically I'm saying that I don't like the word "God" simply because it is too vague and has too many different meanings for too many different people.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinerepemon
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2641427 - 05/05/04 01:47 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Yes there is definately too many meanings for God to be used in a conversation.

Quiz:

In the beginning of everything there was nothing, expect for the knowledge that there is nothing. And at the moment of the realization that there ?s nothing, there suddenly is something (the realization). It still exists even though there was nobody experiencing it? Now, what if that started what we might call "evolution". What if the evolution of everything simply started from knowledge, instead of something that could be in material form.

I've been very interested in this question because I realised that in the Western culture the beginning (what you can call "Big Bang" if you like) of everything starts as a material explosion, but what if there was some sort of spiritual world which created eventually the material world (holograph of the spiritual world which is created in the mind?) I dont know if this comes close to any of the philosophys that are already there. Tell me if it does because of the interest I have for this topic :smile:


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- When the time stops, evil ones will be pointed out for all to see.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: ]
    #2643592 - 05/06/04 12:09 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

The Universe is bounded. The estimate is now something around 15 billion light years. The boundary is impenetrable because there is 'no thing' beyond the expanding boundary. Overcoming the expanding boundary would then move one along the curvature of the expanding bubble, not through it, because one would only penetrate into GOD, and leave space-time, and GOD doesn't admit materiality into the Divine Essence.

'No thing' is called 'Ein Sof' (the Limitless) in Jewish Kabbalism, and maintains that the bubble of our expanding Universe, which emerged from a Singularity (Tsimtsum - the Divine Contraction), is surrounded by the Infinite Godhead into which our finite Universe can theoretically expand eternally, without diminishing GOD's Infinity. Of course, there is the Hindu notion of reabsorption, of the collapsing Universe back into the singularity (as Oscillating Universe theory) only to repeat again. However, in Kabbalism, we humans (and ostensibly, other sentient beings) allows GOD to experience GOD through our awareness. So, GOD actually 'needs' us, rather than creation being a matter of the nature of GOD to create.

In a panentheistic notion, GOD is present throughout creation, yet distinct from the energies that constitute creation (down to Quarks and such). In a pantheistic notion (such as in the Bhagavad Gita) GOD is identical to the spiritual AND material energies that exist. Kabbalism and Judaism as well as Christianity is panENtheistic.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineCather
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2644210 - 05/06/04 04:46 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

So we are inside god's infinite head , We are one of his thoughts and as god is infinite so it is possible for us (the material universe) to be infinite and to have infinite thoughts of our own ?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: repemon]
    #2644623 - 05/06/04 10:08 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I sometimes think of God as interchangeable with the Universe. Maybe God created the Universe to give us somewhere to "be". Maybe God co-exists with the Universe. Maybe God is parallel to the Universe, and God isn't time/space, whereas the Universe is.

But I agree, too, with what Markos wrote.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlineturboturd
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Frog]
    #2646647 - 05/06/04 06:52 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"In theory you may think of God as the Creator, and he is the personal creator of Paradise and the central universe of perfection, but the universes of time and space are all created and organized by the Paradise corps of the Creator Sons. The Universal Father is not the personal creator of the local universe of Nebadon; the universe in which you live is the creation of his Son Michael. Though the Father does not personally create the evolutionary universes, he does control them in many of their universal relationships and in certain of their manifestations of physical, mindal, and spiritual energies. God the Father is the personal creator of the Paradise universe and, in association with the Eternal Son, the creator of all other personal universe Creators. "

an excellent paragraph from a so-far good book, 'Urantia'

I believe that GOD exists outside of time-space, but also co-exists with all.

Frog, sounds like you've read this book?


--------------------
'In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti'

don't wig out on the turd.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: turboturd]
    #2647086 - 05/06/04 08:48 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Why do so many people believe in time?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: Cather]
    #2647968 - 05/06/04 11:37 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Yes to the first part. The creation is more or less the externalized ideas of GOD - external, that is, from the Divine Essence but not the Divine Nature. The possessive quality that you suggest - infinite thoughts of our own - doesn't resonate well with the notion that infinity is a property of GOD, BUT, as St. Paul said: "In Christ [GOD] we live, and move and have out being." Our various human dimensions are of varying 'densities' of Reality, with our most essential Selves partaking of the Divine Nature. While embracing the whole of our being from physical to animal soul to human soul, to mind, to spirit, we must understand that only the highest stage (like a multi-stage rocket) gets to GOD. We must jettison the lower stages after they burn out and have gotten us clear of the planetary gravitation - the involvement in the world as young vital human mammals. Our animal souls and bodily powers diminish with age and our spiritual Selves need transcend to Realize themselves at-one-with GOD.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinenubious
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Registered: 10/20/02
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: d33p]
    #2649903 - 05/07/04 02:21 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Why do so many people believe in time?




Einstein said it best, "Time is only an illusion, no matter how persistant".

Try explaining your day to day requirements without the use of time, then ask yourself the question again.


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: turboturd]
    #2649965 - 05/07/04 02:39 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

turboturd said:
"In theory you may think of God as the Creator, and he is the personal creator of Paradise and the central universe of perfection, but the universes of time and space are all created and organized by the Paradise corps of the Creator Sons. The Universal Father is not the personal creator of the local universe of Nebadon; the universe in which you live is the creation of his Son Michael. Though the Father does not personally create the evolutionary universes, he does control them in many of their universal relationships and in certain of their manifestations of physical, mindal, and spiritual energies. God the Father is the personal creator of the Paradise universe and, in association with the Eternal Son, the creator of all other personal universe Creators. "

an excellent paragraph from a so-far good book, 'Urantia'

I believe that GOD exists outside of time-space, but also co-exists with all.

Frog, sounds like you've read this book?




No, but maybe I need to take a look, eh? 

I started having thoughts about God and the Universe about 2 years ago, when my world fell apart.  This is my quest, now.  God/Universe.

I'm always finding out that my "original" thoughts ain't so original.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2651115 - 05/07/04 08:09 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Universe is bounded.




Dont the latest funky physicists refer to this as the membrane?

Quote:

The boundary is impenetrable because there is 'no thing' beyond the expanding boundary.




I think m-theory suggests that our boundary compares to the membrane of a bubble in a bath and outside of our membrane there could exist many, many other universes...gotta love those freaky physicists!!

It seems that the religous ideas you describe all seem to see our universe as the only one expanding and contracting within the "godhead". Perhaphs many universes exist in a bubblebath of universi. Perhaps this kind of thinking will only make people brains hurt!!


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Always Smi2le


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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