Home | Community | Message Board


FreeSpores.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop: Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/27/98
Posts: 11,114
Loc: Ontario
Right and Wrong
    #407330 - 09/28/01 10:04 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Who gets to decide? I don't think anything is right or wrong.

If my sister takes a shirt out of my closet, she justifies this action by thinking that 1) I won't mind 2) I've done it to her before so it's okay. So in her head, there is no problem. Now when I go to my closet looking for that particular shirt and find that it's not there I am angry at her for not having the common decency to ask first and a loud battle of 'right and wrong' ensues.

Neither of us is right and neither is wrong although we both are positive that we are right. If a mediator were brought in to tell us who is right, that person as well would be able to make neither a right or wrong decision because that person is human.

On a much more dramatic scale, Timothy McVeigh. What he did was justified to himself. He thought that what he was doing was the right thing. In the end, someone had to make the decision that he was to die and someone had to push the button (or whatever) that released poisonous chemicals into his bloodstream. Was that person right, or wrong? Neither.

Not a single human being can make a decision that is either right or wrong...so who gets to decide? Ah, if only the world were a perfect place.

But that wouldn't be any fun, now would it?

O~*
*********************************
It's not who or what you know...it's why... -SM


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDroz
Love of Life
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/16/00
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Floorida
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: CherryBom]
    #407389 - 09/28/01 11:54 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Having no right nor a wrong isn't perfect either.. be happy doing everything... somethings have right and wrong's like video games for instance but in real life there is no right or wrong way to grow vegetables is there? =) Nope...
A perfect world is a happy world. hehe



Love.
Destroy the ego free the real self.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: CherryBom]
    #407618 - 09/28/01 04:53 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I agree.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 280
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: CherryBom]
    #407715 - 09/28/01 06:51 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I'd say there is a right and wrong based on the norms of society, if there weren't a right and wrong then anyone should and could do anything they pleased. Based on that logic I could HYPOTHETICALLY find you, rape you, torture you, and kill you because I justified it to myself that moderators were evil I wouldn't be doing anything wrong(this is not a threat, please don't take it as such). If, however, you were to say there's no right or wrong based solely on nature and man is something that was produced by nature I'd point out that we don't live as one with nature, but in society... I'll continue this another time...



--------------------
Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/27/98
Posts: 11,114
Loc: Ontario
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: MokshaMan]
    #407739 - 09/28/01 07:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

So who gets to decide what the 'norms' of society are? The lawyer who beats his wife? The doctor who operates a kiddie porn site? The almighty judge of the supreme court who is a coke feind? No one deserves to make these decisions. Everyone has skeletons in thier closets.

No one has the 'right' to judge.

O~*
*********************************
It's not who or what you know...it's why... -SM


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinegeokillsA
∙∙∙∙☼ º¿° ☼∙∙∙∙
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/08/01
Posts: 19,247
Loc: city of angels
Last seen: 11 hours, 43 minutes
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: CherryBom]
    #407844 - 09/28/01 09:35 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

that's excellent!

too many people fall into the trap that the morals of society are laws to live by. i'm not saying to go out and kill people, but i don't like the idea that society can classify everyone and as such, judge everyone - which in turn causes people to judge other people. i make it a point to never get down on someone because of something they do or how they think... everyone is entitled to be and/or do what they want to.

? ? ? -????? O ?????-? ? ? ?
Weed Legalization Freedom Fighter
? ? ? -????? O ?????-? ? ? ?


--------------------

--------------------
··∙   long live the shroomery  ∙··
...π╥ ╥π...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 280
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: CherryBom]
    #407882 - 09/28/01 10:49 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I need to remember not to post when I'm in a rush, not only did I not make the point that I wanted to, I ended up making little to no point at all. There is a right and a wrong, that doesn't mean that everything falls into the category of right and wrong. For example, homosexuality is something that's often called wrong. For consenting adults who no one is forcing to participate in homosexual acts, there's no right or wrong attached to it. But say someone forces another against their will to participate in a homosexual act, the person that's forcing the act is wrong. No one has the right to force their will on someone else, therefore the act is wrong. The norms and mores of society is a bad example and I apologize for that. If anything you do infringes on another person's rights or beliefs then you're doing something wrong and the reverse holds true(this must be forcefully, not simply a verbal opinion, objection, etc). I mean if there's no right or wrong, does that mean that the biggest person or the strongest person gets to decide because they can physically force you to do whatever they want. While I'll agree that right and wrong are terms that are carelessly thrown about with little regard to the truth of the statements.

Another much simpler example of there being a right and a wrong, if you add 2 and 2 you get 4 anything else is wrong although I'm sure you'll claim this is a different type of right and wrong more of a true false. Although true and false are similiar to right and wrong, there are things that are true(like 2+2=4), things that are false(such as 3-1=4), and lots of things that fall into neither catogory(that shirt is cool).

As far as having the right to judge other people, we don't have that right; however, are we to let men and women run mad through the streets raping, stealing, and killing? I know that the majority wouldn't do this if every authority figure were to suddenly disappear, but I believe a large enough portion of the population would enforce their will on others(becoming a new and possibly worse authority figure) that there would no longer be a need to worry of right and wrong simply a strugle to survive(similiar to what's happening in Afghanistan, which is why mores and norms of society is a bad example). Although I tend to think many of the basic beliefs in the English system of common law are based on the belief of right and wrong develop by society to insure a maximium amount of freedom.



--------------------
Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDroz
Love of Life
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/16/00
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Floorida
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: MokshaMan]
    #407924 - 09/29/01 12:31 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

force is not "wrong" and it may not seem "right" to some people... but to be such a "right" and "wrong" world is only two concepts which aren't really concepts at all just opinions.
Opinions.

Love.
Destroy the ego free the real self.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDragonAlienFest1
Stranger
Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 23
Loc: Seattle metropolitan area...
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: CherryBom]
    #407934 - 09/29/01 01:11 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I agree with the original post. There is no universal right or wrong action. There are actions that are right or wrong for individuals, societies etc. The right and wrong in these situations is determined by what the majority of the group or the individual believe is right, but what they believe is right is only right from their perspective and not universally right.

To say that there are actions that are universally right or wrong is to suggest that there is a higher power.

And just because there are no right or wrong actions doesn't mean that no one should act on what they belive is right or wrong; that would be impossible.



--------------------
Completely straightup downright digging it. Can you dig it?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinetchyted
miestro
Registered: 09/03/01
Posts: 526
Loc: WA near seattle
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: CherryBom]
    #407947 - 09/29/01 01:50 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

be content, even happy that you have a sister to steal your shirt in the first place.

Edited by tchyted on 09/29/01 12:52 AM.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/27/98
Posts: 11,114
Loc: Ontario
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: tchyted]
    #407959 - 09/29/01 02:08 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

My sister is a cool broad.



O~*
*********************************
It's not who or what you know...it's why... -SM


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMrKurtz
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 303
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: CherryBom]
    #408142 - 09/29/01 11:06 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

eh, right and wrong is a very interesting thing to argue over, but if there was no right or wrong, society would suck. The easiest way to decide whether something is right or wrong, is (someone else already brought this up) if someone does something that goes against the will of another.
But, that also gets kind of hazy, like if i enjoy speeding and a cop pulls me over for going twice the speed limit, even though its the middle of the night and no one else is there. To advance the human race, you can't make everything perfect. I think we all would agree that killing, raping, beating people up, and stealing are wrong. But then, is using drugs wrong? It only hurts you really, but what if you go driving stoned out of your mind, get in an accident, and kill someone. It doesn't impair your ability to do things much at all, but its still a little bit. So, you could hurt others. But, driving while getting BJ from your girlfriend is probably just as dangerous, so should we outlaw BJ's?



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 280
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: DragonAlienFest1]
    #408191 - 09/29/01 12:35 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

If there is no universal right and wrong, why are somethings comdemned by all societies? I mean no society accepts the rape, murder, violence against another, and so on; well unless they're state sponsored(doesn't make it right just means they have the power and do what they want). But then I think about canablistic societies, who do kill people as food. Is it hunting or murder? Like I said before I think a lot of things that are called right and wrong aren't really right and wrong, doesn't mean there aren't things that are right or wrong.



--------------------
Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMrKurtz
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 303
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: MokshaMan]
    #408215 - 09/29/01 01:05 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Like the vikings and mongols, its ok to murder rape and pillage people as long as they weren't from your tribe. Its pretty much universal that people are not supposed to harm members of there society that are "citizens", unless you are in someway better then them (the king could do whatever the fuck he wants, but no one would stand for a slave going around punching people in the nose).



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,481
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: CherryBom]
    #409405 - 09/30/01 07:29 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

right & wrong...
hmmmm, "sin" is intentionally causing harm to another...
so now we can look at "intentional", "cause", "harm", and "another"...
(harming yourself may be sily, but it shouldhardly be consderd a "sin" (or a "crime" either)...)

old enough to know better
not old enough to care


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: MokshaMan]
    #409441 - 09/30/01 07:56 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

> No one has the right to force their will on someone else, therefore the act is wrong.

Why not?

> If anything you do infringes on another person's rights or beliefs then you're doing something wrong and the reverse holds true(this must be forcefully, not simply a verbal opinion, objection, etc

What "rights" do we have and how are they determined?

Rights are abstract. There are a system which we created to philosophically justify the law.

Authority is supposed to dictate what is "Right" and may or may not be done, but authority is simply the ability to dictate your will upon others. Authority is an abstraction, as are personal rights.

> I mean if there's no right or wrong, does that mean that the biggest person or the strongest person gets to decide because they can physically force you to do whatever they want.

Sure. And the technologically advanced could then defend themselves from bullies. And groups of humans could for "societies" to maintain relative peace.

> Another much simpler example of there being a right and a wrong, if you add 2 and 2 you get 4 anything else is wrong although I'm sure you'll claim this is a different type of right and wrong more of a true false. Although true and false are similiar to right and wrong, there are things that are true(like 2+2=4), things that are false(such as 3-1=4), and lots of things that fall into neither catogory(that shirt is cool).

The original post was about ethics and morality, IMO. What does mathematics have to do with this? Can mathematical truth be used in a court of law as a rationale for passing laws? I think not.

> As far as having the right to judge other people, we don't have that right;

But I do it anyways, all the time.

> however, are we to let men and women run mad through the streets raping, stealing, and killing?

You don't have to let them when there's no right or wrong. Anyway, in this world, the authorities do run around detaining, arresting, stealing and killing people (classified as "criminals").

> I believe a large enough portion of the population would enforce their will on others(becoming a new and possibly worse authority figure)

Yep, authority is just an abstraction, and has nothing to do with right or wrong.

> Although I tend to think many of the basic beliefs in the English system of common law are based on the belief of right and wrong develop by society to insure a maximium amount of freedom.

You mean egocentric freedom in a well-developed hierarchical capitalist class system?



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: MokshaMan]
    #409452 - 09/30/01 08:04 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

> If there is no universal right and wrong, why are somethings comdemned by all societies? I mean no society accepts the rape, murder, violence against another, and so on;

Well, if the examples you listed were actually condemned by all societies, it still wouldn't make it a universal right or wrong. The human race is simply not the entire universe. Do animals not count? Or the possibility of life on other worlds?

Rape, murder and violence have all been acceptable in societies depending on their context. In war, rape was considered acceptable (long ago, pre-modern times). Murder is accepted in the form of war. Violence in the arresting of criminals.

Context dictates when an action (eg// killing a person) is to be condemned (such as if the person is a total stranger) or not (such as in self defence).

So you see, by decontextualizing, actions are not universally right or wrong across the human race. By using words such as "murder" you are putting an action (killing a human) into a given context. And by the way, the definition of murder is contextualized within moral boundaries (murder is the *wrongful* killing of a human being, whatever "wrongful" is).



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Right and Wrong [Re: Kid]
    #409587 - 09/30/01 10:44 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

>>What "rights" do we have and how are they determined?

Every human has the right of free will. They may do whatever they choose to express their free will as long as it does not infinge upon the free will of another human.
That is our right. It is determined by Creation.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMrKurtz
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 303
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: Kid]
    #409597 - 09/30/01 10:49 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

So, do you think people would be better off if there was no right or wrong or are you just playing devils advocate? Nothing is perfect, but the idea of "Right and Wrong" in our society is close enough.

"In war, rape was considered acceptable (long ago, pre-modern times). Murder is accepted in the form of war. Violence in the arresting of criminals."

Well, I don't think we are talking about long ago, and no one today thinks its ok to rape women of other nations you are at war with. Murder in war is pretty much self defense, and war itself is usually thought of as wrong. If you use a necessary amount of force on a criminal, you use just enough to keep yourself safe and make sure the criminal doesn't escape and cause more harm. If you beat a criminal up because you think hes mean, thats wrong. If you don't run, the cops aren't gonna beat you up unless they're bad cops.

You can argue just about anything as not being universal or provable, theres no way i can prove you aren't just an apparition of my imagination. But its not very likely that you are, so i would believe that you are a "real" person, and this world is "real".




Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMrKurtz
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 303
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Right and Wrong [Re: ]
    #409601 - 09/30/01 10:51 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

what if the free will of 2 beings conflict?



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Amazon Shop: Scales

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Non-Violence explained (by my all time hero!)...
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Shroomalicious 6,995 107 05/03/10 03:26 AM
by Withinity
* the need for violence spewed 4th 817 6 11/09/02 01:08 AM
by Zero7a1
* appeal for a mystical society,
( 1 2 all )
Mitchnast 2,824 34 03/19/03 07:31 PM
by Zero7a1
* Wrong Hakim0777 1,305 12 06/11/07 11:46 PM
by FocusHawaii
* Living off of "wrong" emotions (plz read) bandaid 690 11 08/23/04 06:34 PM
by Teragon
* tv the drug of the masses control of society hippi 1,565 11 06/13/06 05:28 AM
by slaphappy
* Subconscious Guilt Of Using Drugs In A Narcophobic Society Twirling 787 3 08/20/04 02:10 PM
by Twirling
* Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence?
( 1 2 3 4 ... 10 11 all )
OrgoneConclusion 9,249 206 07/21/09 05:47 PM
by blewmeanie

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
3,300 topic views. 1 members, 4 guests and 11 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Radical Mycology Book by Chthaeus Press
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.038 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 20 queries.