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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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..sense of right and wrong
    #4227959 - 05/27/05 09:39 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

How can scientists, the ones pulling our entire society, get caught up in such a childish concept, that healthy people have some kind of sense of right and wrong, and those who don't are ill.

How can someone have sense of right and wrong when he himself invented it?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4228036 - 05/27/05 10:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

when he himself invented it?

This isn't entirely correct.

Humans are social animals. It's this evolved property that helped raise us from beasts in the wilderness to complex societies. Where one person could never have hunted a buffalo, a group had no trouble at all.

Hand in hand with this social tendency comes a sense of what's right and wrong in the context of what's best for the entire society because that's usually also what's best for the individual.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: Diploid]
    #4228061 - 05/27/05 10:23 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, but while you may understand what is best for society, there is no rule that tells you that you SHOULD do what is best for society


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4228177 - 05/27/05 11:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

right= whatever benefits myself, family, and country

wrong= anything that hinders the above


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: looner2]
    #4228595 - 05/28/05 01:10 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

scientists have a bad record with that crap
back in the day they were saying one race was superior to others
nowadays they're into things like psychiatry


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisiblemushrx1
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4228770 - 05/28/05 01:55 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)


read on at your own risk:


Well, from the USA political scene it's clear that the scientists are no longer pulling anything. The last presidential election showed economically lax, less educated states dominating the election. In fact, the states which harbor most business and respected higher education arenas voted against Bush, the war, the current state of affairs. So scientists (and anyone really educated in a science way) aren't pulling society along anymore. Kentucky or Kansas wants to pull back on evolution education, in favor of creationism. That's not a win for science in my book. (They voted for Bush).

A personal note on right and wrong: Humans are indeed social, but we're also very idiosyncratic. That which enables us to dominate nature also feeds our greed, thus we've become that which is responsible for killing us off. We are our own best predator, unfortunately that's the price for doing away with the previous best predators... disease, lions, what have you.

It is difficult but necessary to speak in relative terms here too. Good for one group may mean bad for another. The Christian world view may not serve Muslims, Even Catholics and Protestants have their turf staked out in certain areas of the world. Good (what is right), after all, is relative to the speaker. It is a representation of what isn't bad- we do live by these dichotomies. furthermore, it's relative to the badness we experience. To a Beverly Hills socialite a Gucci bag is generally 'passe'. To someone trying to carry water in a straw bucket for two miles back to the village, a sewn leather bag is a godsend. You get the idea.

As for defining the healthy person as one who has a sense of right and wrong: The definition is based entirely on social cohesion. Folks who habitually do things which upset the status quo cause change. That's usually uncomfortable, at least at first. So we define folks outside the envelope as unhealthy only as a definition of the bell curve position relative to our spot in history. If we all peed ourselves today we'd be locked up. In the renaissance the high courtiers took several hours to dress, usually with the help of two or three assistants. They peed themselves as a matter of course. Another example: Freud was an experimenter with cocaine. We don't call him a drug addict, because it was legal in his day. Prohibition turned average drinkers into criminals, and spurred gang organization and income- society in that case decided that alcohol was alright. We're always defining what is right and wrong and that's why the Supreme court nominees have had such a tough time, being the partisan nominations of late. Democratics don't want to lock in to several years of hyper right wing judicial decisions. The parties are split. Similarly, many in the psych arena would disagree about what is right and wrong, likely basing their judgement on legal definitions, thereby getting themselves off the hook. Remember, though, you can't legislate morality- if you do it because you have to it's not your morality anymore.


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OfflineOmEgAx1
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: mushrx1]
    #4228918 - 05/28/05 02:51 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Let me summarize all of this by putting it this way...

When scientists, more specifically psychologists, talk about the "sense right and wrong", what they are really talking about is in Freudian terms, the Super Ego of the brain. When you are a toddler, all you have is the Id, the instictual part of the brain that runs only on needs and fulfillment, this is also how mother/child bonding develops, think about it, in your primitive mind set as a toddler, you have a need, lets say your hungry, that need is met, who is the first person you see when that need is met? Repeat this process thousands of times, thats how child bonding develops.

Then develops the Ego, no not the "Im better than you" Ego, the part of the brain that can make rational decisions, almost mathmatically. This is the part of the brain that we equate to basic problem solving.

Then later in life, some time around 7 years of age I believe it was, develops the Super Ego, thats the part of your thinking that takes into account "right and wrong", ofcourse almost all of this is pressed on us by society, but it would develop even without society, though then your views of "right and wrong" would be extremely different from those in normal society, Im not talking about "its wrong to do drugs" (though for some people it is coded into them), im talking about the right and wrongs that arent even disputed or thought twice about, such as "its wrong to murder".

But what happens when the Super Ego fails to develop? Simple!
You have psychopaths and sociopaths. Not like psychotics, psychopaths can infact operate in normal society, they dont have any sort of basic sense of right and wrong and only fuction on instict and pure problem solving. They dont go around killing people though not because they think its wrong, but because they dont want to be punished. But the problem with only having instict and problem solving, is instinct can at times supercede the ego, leading to people who problem solve ways very intelligently to fulfil their instictual needs because theres no Super Ego to supress the Id.

Thats when you have serial killers.

Hence, no sense of "right and wrong" is infact an illness.


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OfflineDoom
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4228948 - 05/28/05 03:08 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
How can scientists, the ones pulling our entire society, get caught up in such a childish concept, that healthy people have some kind of sense of right and wrong, and those who don't are ill.

How can someone have sense of right and wrong when he himself invented it?




?????

are you for real?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: Doom]
    #4229206 - 05/28/05 04:47 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Mark this occasion, because for once I completely agree with OldWoodSpecter.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: Doom]
    #4229368 - 05/28/05 08:32 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Doom said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
How can scientists, the ones pulling our entire society, get caught up in such a childish concept, that healthy people have some kind of sense of right and wrong, and those who don't are ill.

How can someone have sense of right and wrong when he himself invented it?




?????

are you for real?




how am I supose to respond to this post? I don't know what is it that you don't understand and what your views are. So either tell me what do you think on the subject or ask me questions about my post.
All I can say now is:
a) yes I am for real
b) no I am for unreal

and both carry little or no meaning


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: looner2]
    #4229369 - 05/28/05 08:34 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
right= whatever benefits myself, family, and country

wrong= anything that hinders the above




something that is right for your country is wrong for your enemy country. So then all that your body and brain ever tells you is what YOU WANT and what YOU DON'T WANT, it doesn't tell you what is right and what is wrong.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOmEgAx1
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4229974 - 05/28/05 02:36 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Wrong once again, obviously no one read my post, sense of right and wrong as stated by psychologists is infact the Super Ego sense of the brain, and without it you are a psychopath with the risk of becomming a serial killer and other such things.

Maybe go back and actually READ the long but informative post, and you can stop going back and forth with meaningless arguments since the answere has already been posted.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #4230145 - 05/28/05 03:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Wrong once again, obviously no one read my post, sense of right and wrong as stated by psychologists is infact the Super Ego sense of the brain, and without it you are a psychopath with the risk of becomming a serial killer and other such things.

Maybe go back and actually READ the long but informative post, and you can stop going back and forth with meaningless arguments since the answere has already been posted.


Yeah I read it, but two problems. First, psychologists aren't scientists. Second, Freudian psychology is largly discredited in the field of modern psychology, so whats the point?


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4230150 - 05/28/05 03:40 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)


something that is right for your country is wrong for your enemy country. So then all that your body and brain ever tells you is what YOU WANT and what YOU DON'T WANT, it doesn't tell you what is right and what is wrong.



I don't understand.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineOmEgAx1
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: looner2]
    #4230178 - 05/28/05 03:58 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Most of Freudians ideas are discredited, but the idea of Id, Ego, SuperEgo which he pioneered are not.

But fact is fact, a person without a sence of right and wrong is a psychopath by definition.


Ohh and check this out...

psy?chol?o?gist n. 1. a specialist in one or more branches of psychology 2. a scientist trained in psychology

psy?chol?o?gy n. 1. The science that deals with mental processes and behavior.


So if your really gonna tell me psychologists arent scientists (even though the suffix "logist" directly implies a branch of science), then you better go rewrite the dictionary and the base definition and meaning of science.


Edited by OmEgAx1 (05/28/05 04:03 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #4230627 - 05/28/05 06:22 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OmEgAx1 said:
Wrong once again, obviously no one read my post, sense of right and wrong as stated by psychologists is infact the Super Ego sense of the brain, and without it you are a psychopath with the risk of becomming a serial killer and other such things.

Maybe go back and actually READ the long but informative post, and you can stop going back and forth with meaningless arguments since the answere has already been posted.




Even if this "superego" does exist, it is manufactured by society. So the same way you can make a man have a sense of milk and orange juice and which one is the right one to drink in different ocasions.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #4230636 - 05/28/05 06:25 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OmEgAx1 said:
Most of Freudians ideas are discredited, but the idea of Id, Ego, SuperEgo which he pioneered are not.

But fact is fact, a person without a sence of right and wrong is a psychopath by definition.


Ohh and check this out...

psy?chol?o?gist n. 1. a specialist in one or more branches of psychology 2. a scientist trained in psychology

psy?chol?o?gy n. 1. The science that deals with mental processes and behavior.


So if your really gonna tell me psychologists arent scientists (even though the suffix "logist" directly implies a branch of science), then you better go rewrite the dictionary and the base definition and meaning of science.




yea, in definition he is a sociopath,
and the stuff that comes out of cows tit is by definition milk.
Wouldn't it be cool if we switched definitions? So that the stuff coming out of cows tit is a sociopath, and people who don't know what is right and wrond are milk..

words words..


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: looner2]
    #4230640 - 05/28/05 06:27 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:

something that is right for your country is wrong for your enemy country. So then all that your body and brain ever tells you is what YOU WANT and what YOU DON'T WANT, it doesn't tell you what is right and what is wrong.



I don't understand.




ok, supose we are standing facing each other, you have a strong motive to kill me, perhapse I am putting you in danger somehow, and you kill me, so it is "right" for you, but for me it is "wrong" if you kill me because I don't want to die.

So how can a human have sense of right and wrong when it is so subjective?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4230797 - 05/28/05 07:12 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I guess all Libertarians are sociopaths then.... watch out, they got a little over 2% of the vote!!!


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Invisiblewandrnshaman
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Re: ..sense of right and wrong *DELETED* [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4230803 - 05/28/05 07:12 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by wandrnshaman

Reason for deletion: .



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