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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: muhurgle]
    #2318218 -

muhurgle said:
According to them:

God = Jesus = The Holy Spirit



I know this, I've been indoctrinated for twelve years myself. But they never managed to convey exactly how the trinity worked, or what the Three-As-One God image was based on.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Frog]
    #2318228 -

Frog said:
I learned that Jesus is the Son of God, but also "God" made man. It's basically called "the Trinity", three Gods... Father, Son and Holy Ghost...but they're all one God.


That's what I've been TOLD, too. I guess what I'm really asking is: "Who's thought about it and come up with insight into how this works?"


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2318232 -

Ya gotta ask yourself, If Jesus came back would he be a Christian?
  :confused:

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Spokesman]
    #2318248 -

Spokesman said:
The trinity sounds like a lousy theory to give Jesus the GOD title. Just because god said "man is now like us" in Genesis, doesent mean he was talking to Jesus or the holy spirit. He could have been talking to a million other gods, or maybe he's schitzo i don't now.


This 'we' could be the royal plural, as in "Man is now like us, [king of creation]".


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2318642 -

Quote:
Alan Stone said:
Quote:
Frog said:
I learned that Jesus is the Son of God, but also "God" made man. It's basically called "the Trinity", three Gods... Father, Son and Holy Ghost...but they're all one God.


That's what I've been TOLD, too. I guess what I'm really asking is: "Who's thought about it and come up with insight into how this works?"


Christianity isn't the first religion to have a trinity. It exists in Hinduism as well. Of course, in Hinduism, ALL things are one, so it makes more sense in this context. But I guess you could see it as 3 roles that God plays. It's like how I'm a student, a Shroomerite, a son, a brother, etc. I play different roles in my life, and I guess this is sort of the same thing with God(tho I can't imagine why they'd limit his roles to only 3 if he's an infinite being).


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2319698 -

Yes, I am going with SilverSoul on this one. That's a pretty good analogy.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Frog]
    #2320111 -

well.. its not worshipping 3 gods.. the trinity is comprised of 3 intertwined aspects..

-God as the creator, the truth , the origin
-Jesus as the son of god.. as our salvation through his sacrifice on the cross
-the holey spirit as gods truth within us and as our communicator of the truth.. basically the jesus in us

I am not christian, but I have been spending alot of time lately with some very good and intense christians.. ive really enjoyed it.. very different from my previous experiences with christians/religion..

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: ludik]
    #2320144 -

I would agree with your analysis, ludik.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Frog]
    #2327246 -

This is a long post about Jesus as God and the son of God, the Bible and Muhammad .. I highly recommend the book 'The Choice' for you, as an inquisitive teacher of theology I respect you seeking to preach the truth and hope more would :smile: ..

I don't agree with the trinity. Jesus worshipped God, while some believe they should worship Jesus.. go figure. Nor did he say 'worship me', anywhere, ever. To even consider Jesus, a man, apart of creation to be a part of the Creator, the Divive One, is to deny his Perfection. For the Creator is beyond his creation in all aspects, nor can any of creation approach his Glory and Majesty.

There is only one verse in the whole of the Bible which unequivocally supports this Christian dogma, and that is:
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and Holy Ghost; and these three are one." The First Epistle of John 5:7

Dr. C.I. Scofield, D.D. backed by eight other D.D.'s in a footnote to this verse opine:
"It is generally agreed that this verse has no manuscript authority and has been inserted."
The fundamentalist Christians still retain this fabrication whereas, in all the modern translations including the Revised Standard Version (RSV) this pious fraud has been unceremoniously expunged.

"They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no God except one God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), Verily a gervious penalty will befall the blasphemers among them." Quran 5:76

Jesus not god! Jesus would not allow anyone to even call him "good", let alone call him god.

"One came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?
"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..."  Matthew 28:18

(Jesus') Power not his own:
a) "And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:18

b) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge.." John 5:30

c) "...I by the finger of God cast out devils..." Luke 11:20

d) "And Jesus lifted up his eyes (towards heaven), and said, Father, I thank thee for thou hast heard me.
"And I know that thou hearst me always: but because of the people which stand by I said (my supplication aloud), that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a louc voice, Lazarus, come forth.
"And he that was dead came forth.."    John 11:41-43

Who gave life back to Lazarus? God, for God heard the prayer of Jesus, as "always".

Peter's testimony:
e) "Ye men of Israel (O Jews!) hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN aprove of God (meaning a prophet) among you by miracles and signs, which _God did by him_
in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."  Acts 2:22

Was like inspired by God to say that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the son of Joseph?
"And Jesus himself began to be about ('about' the Holy Ghost did not know for sure) thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph..."  Luke 3:23

The Words "( as was supposed)" appearing in brackets are not in the orignal Greek manuscript of Luke. These words are a gloss of the translators.

In the different vernacular languages of the world, like Arabic, Afrikaans, Zulu etc. the words "as was supposed" are retained in the translations but the brackets are removed. Thus by removing the brackets the words become the declaration of Luke, and if Luke was inspired then the words are transmuted into an utterance of God. This is how easily the word of man is transformed inot the word of God in Christianity.

He had no knowledge of the Hereafter:
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father."  Mark 13:32
A God tempted by the Devil?:
"Where he (Jesus) stayed forty days, being tempted by Satan." Mark 1:13

The Son of God... The Bible ascribes sons by the tons to God, as it was said earlier in the debate, son of God is not mean't to be taken literally.

http://www.islam-for-everyone.com/come_to_islam/dialogue/Has_God_Sons.htm
http://www.islam-for-everyone.com/come_to_islam/true_message/chapter3.htm
http://www.islam-for-everyone.com/come_to_islam/true_message/CHAPTER4.HTM
These are some of the works of Ahmed Deedat, the author of 'The Choice'

a) "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38

b) "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took wives of all which they chose.
"... when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."  Genesis 6:2 and 4

c) ".. Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son even my first born."  Exodus 4:22

d).. and Ephraim is my firstborn."  Jeremaih 31:9 ... (btw, how can there be two firstborns?)

I highly recommend the book, 'Crucifixion or Cruci-fiction?' .. proves how Jesus (pbuh) did not get crucified and resusrected but the word of Jesus (pbuh) got distorted by man, St. Paul, the founder of Christianity, not Jesus (pbuh).

Consider, "The Gospel according to St. Mark", "The Gospel according to St. John", etc. .. The amazing thing about the Christians' sworn affidavits (writings attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) is that not a single one of them is duly attested. Not a single one bears the signature, mark or thumb-print of its author, in the so called orrignals. They now boast of being in possession of over 24 000 "originals" of which no two "originals" are identical. Amazing! Little wonder they name their Gospels "according to".
It is only assumed that they are authored by the names the Gospels carry today. The translators of the "New International Version" have unceremoniously expunged the "According to's" from the four Gospels.

One of the alleged witnesses, St. Mark. tells us that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus - "All his disciples forsook him and fled." Mark 14:50
_All_! Does "all" mean all in your language? I'm sure it does. :smile:

So the so-called "eye-witnesses" were not really eye-witnesses to the happenings, unless St. Mark is not telling us the whole truth.

Original Sin:
the Doctrine of Original Sin is the reason that there is a need for salvation through Jesus' crucifixion. However, this doctrine was invented by Paul and it is strongly negated in the Old Testament (see Ezekiel 18:20, Jeremiah 31:30, Deut. 24:16). This doctrine is an attempt to escape the responsibility of righteousness with the belief that punishment is given to someone else to release us from our burden of sins (see Ephesians 1:7, Romans 4:25, 10:9, Corinthians 15:21) In the Quran, every soul is responsible for its own deeds, good or bad (see 74:38,41:46, 3:25, 6:154).

The Christian dogma that sin is iniherited is against all ethics, morality and common sense. It is against the explicit pronouncement of God:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son (the progeny of Adam) shall not bear the iniquity of the father (Adam), neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Ezekiel 18:20-21 and others stated above.

In Islam the notion of original sin is regarded as inconsistent with the justice of Allah. How could a just and loving God make an innocent child responsible for or atleast bear the guilt for the sins of a distant ancestor?

"No heathen tribe has conceived so grotesque an idea, involving as it does the assumption, that man was born with a hereditary stain upon him, and this stain for which he was not personally responsible was to be atoned for, and that the creator of all things had to sacrifice his only begotten son to neutralise this mysterious curse." (Major Yeats Brown)

Jesus (pbuh) himself regarded children as innocent and pure, and NOT BORN IN SIN:
"Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God..."  Mark 10:14


The Cruci-fiction, where do we begin..
This is a detailed discussion and I refer you to the book, The Choice .. which is a two volume book about the Bible, Muhammad and the Crucifixion of Jesus .. the book, 'Crucifixion or Cruci-fiction' .. I will try to present as much as possible here, otherwise that book is magnificently detailed.

"And they said (in boast), 'We killed christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God': but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no certain knowledge, but they follow only conjecture, for a surety they killed him not." Quran 4:157

.. highly recommended this link.. (would take me alot longer to write up all points of debate) 

http://www.islam-for-everyone.com/come_to_islam/dialogue/Crucifiction.htm

..a dialogue about the Crucifixion.

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46)
Does that sound like a Prophet of God? Jesus (pbuh) to you? Having not trust in God.

I would continue about the Prophecises of Muhammad in the Bible..
http://www.islam-for-everyone.com/come_to_islam/dialogue/Muhammad1.htm
http://www.islam-for-everyone.com/come_to_islam/dialogue/Muhammad2.htm
http://www.islam-for-everyone.com/come_to_islam/dialogue/Muhammad3.htm
http://www.islam-for-everyone.com/come_to_islam/dialogue/Muhammad4.htm
http://www.islam-for-everyone.com/come_to_islam/dialogue/Muhammad5.htm
http://www.islam-for-everyone.com/come_to_islam/dialogue/Muhammad6.htm
http://www.islam-for-everyone.com/come_to_islam/dialogue/Muhammad7.htm
http://www.islam-for-everyone.com/come_to_islam/dialogue/Muhammad8.htm
http://www.islam-for-everyone.com/come_to_islam/dialogue/Muhammad9.htm

More importantly and concise:
http://www.islamworld.net/Muhammad.in.Bible.html
http://www.al-sunnah.com/muhammad_in_the_bible.htm
http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/Muhammad_Bible.HTM

It would take too much space here and abit off topic for all the points of debate.

Just to mention he was mentioned he was stated by name in Song of Solomon 5:16. The hebrew word used there is Muhammaduim. The end letters IM is a plural of respect, majest and grandeur.
Minus "im" the name would be Mahammud translated as "altogether lovely"  in the Authorised Version of the Bible or 'The praised one' - 'the one worth of praise' i.e. Muhammad (pbuh).

Jesus was denied by his people and was a radical of the time, he stood up against the establishment and he is one of the most highly respected Muslim prophets, peace be upon him.
The man, Muhammad, peace be upon him, has brought 1.5 billion people to believe in Jesus (pbuh)!

I leave you with this, sorry about the late reply.


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May Peace and fellicity smile on those who seek it.

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: nemesis]
    #2327353 -

Good job at making a long post ! I'm gonna have to read it again tomorrow and then reply. I'll get back to you on this one.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2327657 -

As a former seminarian, I HIGHLY recommend the best theological book I've read since 1978: 'Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes' by Rev. John Shelby Spong, former Episcopalian Archbishop of Newark, NJ. You are confusing the critically important idea of midrash with a literal-historical take on Biblical writings. In the first place, the earliest legitimate writings of the NT are some of the letters of Paul. NOWHERE does Paul speak of a 'resusitated' physical body as the Resurrection of Jesus the Christ. The 'empty tomb narratives' came much later, and were PR works essentially, yet written 'midrashically.' That is to say, midrash is a colorful and oftentimes miraculous (i.e., defying of physical laws) depiction of person or event that was intended to highlight the importance of said person/event. The were not intended to be understood literally when they were written! When people read about other religious traditions, say, about the baby Siddhartha - whose first baby steps on Earth had lotus blossoms springing up under his feet - few people take this literally. BUT - that an objective reporter from the Bethlehem Gazette (or Nazareth News - depending on the account) was writing copy on a baby born in a manger, under an astronomical anomaly, and visited by Persian astrologer mages bearing gifts, etc. - THAT stuff is believed literally!

Paul's resurrected Christ was a resurrection of the "spiritual" or "inner man," and was revealed to Paul in voice and light. To 'picture' a rususitated corpus - let alone one who was not recognized, let alone with different Synoptic accounts, only makes sense if one understands midrash, drops 21st century phenomenological-scientific thinking, and understands under what circumstances the NT writings were penned. Spong masterfully explains this process using the Biblical writing itself. The Gospels were liturgical pieces, for example, which followed the Jewish calendar of Holy days.

None of Spong's work ill-effected my own faith as a Christian. In fact, he was instrumental in helping me to reconcile both reason and faith in my consideration of the written Word. I have read, and own half a dozen of his books, but THIS book is killer! Much of what we have learned is WRONG and this book is amazing!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2327765 -

John McQuarrie's 'Principles of Christian Theology' contains the best rendering of Trinitarian theology that I have ever read, and I've read Tertullian who coined the term 'Trinity' as well as Augustine who wrote a huge treatise on it. This rendering is so clear and effective, that it was able to convey understanding to my Lady's 72 year old Muslim father, who, like most Muslims, never grok the meaning intended by the doctrine. Father-Son-Spirit is discussed in terms of Primordial-Expressive-Unifying BEING, and each of these aspects are elaborated.

The Trinity is neither 3 Gods, nor 3 modes of GOD (Modalism), but rather a doctrine that suggests "dynamism" (Jung) in the 'Divine Economia' (Inner Life of the Godhead), whereas a monolithic 'oneness' depicts a lifeless, gray, neutral infinity that suggests little more than the mathematical idea of infinity. GOD is indeed ONE, but 3 [Eyes - I] suggests a living relationship within the Godhead, a living symbolism on the human-psychospiritual plane, and many other important notions about the plural Names of GOD in the Scriptures as well as the veiled notion of the Eternal Feminine - Wisdom - in the Godhead. The Aramaic Name that Jesus (Issa in Aramaic) used would have been "Abwoon" which translates variously into 'Cosmic Mother-Father' or 'Cosmic Birther' rather than the Hebrew "Abba" - a familiar name for Father ['Daddy']. Feminine AND Masculine (and the implied Union of both - a 3rd).

Hebrew Qabalism even contains Ayn-Ayn Soph-Ayn Soph Aur which can be translated as [Un-Namable]-The Limitless-The Limitless Light - perhaps the Name "Elohim" from Genesis which is a plural Name for GOD.

Brahman-Vishnu-Shiva the Hindu Trinity of Creator-Preserver-Destroyer is conceptually different, yet Trinitarian NOT merely polytheistic as the unlettered might think. Ultimate Reality is described in Triune terms in Hinduism as Sat-Chit-Ananda or Being-Knowledge-Bliss, again different but Trinitarian. The archetype of 3 has long arisen from the ONE. The archetype of '4' is a different story, and like ONE, suggests stasis rather than dynamism. Zoroastrianism is the greatest example of cosmic dualism - '2' - Ahura Mazda (GOD) and Ahriman (Devil) or Light and Dark, Good and Evil, etc. co-existing equally and eternally. There is a certain 'something' about a Trinity that can convey the ONE.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2328718 -

Jesus rocks!


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: ergot]
    #2328859 -

ergot said:
Jesus rocks!


He raves too.



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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2328966 -

Some heavy posts there folks...

OK... Let's suppose that Jesus is the human expression of God.

As it was Man who screwed things up, a real Man, bound by the same limitations and subject to the same desires and temptations as the rest of us, was needed to put it back together...

God made the rules of the Universe, both physical & spiritual, and will not break his own rules. Jesus fulfills the full legal requirements of the Law as dictated by God. He is a Man (born of Woman) and was fully part of this Space/Time universe while he was here physically. He is, physically and legally, a Man.

Also, as the 'seed' he originated from was not 'Human Stock' (born of the Spirit through Immaculate Conception), he was not bound by the 'Curse'(Original Sin). So the Book talks about him as the '2nd Adam' (able to do properly what the 1st one stuffed up).

In order to be truly human, Jesus needed to be separate and contained from God (the Father). 2 elements, God-Man & God-Spirit, had to BE in order for this to happen... (I believe the 'Spirit' was responsible for conception...?)

As all beings with 'souls' exist in the "Infinate Present" as well as the Space/Time universe, Jesus, as a true man, must also...

As God exists in the "Eternal Present", it therefore stands to reason that there was no 'point of creation' for these other elements, they simply ARE in the same way that God IS.

Which all explains God's apparent Multiple Personality Disorder!

All this is of course pure bullshit, but it's amusing to think about anyway...


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Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: nemesis]
    #2329180 -

Your Islamic interpretation of Christ is precisely that - an Islamic interpretation. It holds no internal validity to the Christian weltanshauung [world view] but rather stands outside of it. It is no more valid than a Hindu interpretation of Christ, which views Him as an Avatar, or a Buddhist position that considers Jesus to be a Bodhisattva, or the Jewish Talmudic view that Y'shua was a Magician, learned of the arts of Thoth-Isis.

The notion of eye-witness accounts of NT writings is doubtful to me, and I am a Jewish Christian of Gnostic persuasion. My Gnostic orientation does not mean that I do not believe that Jesus was crucified in His physical body - I believe that He was. It is simple arrogance on a world-wide scale to proclaim with self-assuredness that a Prophet of the LORD would not die a shameful death. A - the ontological nature of Jesus - though a Mystery and not definable, except by faith - was not equal to the ontological status of a Prophet. B - Jesus was not replaced by another individual. That is insultingly cowardly. C - if ANY aspect of the crucifixion is accurate, then the Spear of Longinus (the Centurian) thrust into the pericardium, filled with edema water and blood, would be invariably fatal. D - the words of Matthew that you quote: "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" are the opening Words to the 22nd Psalm! Jesus was praying, and moreover, His choice of prayer was perfectly reflective of the human condition of death and despair that He was experiencing at that moment - demonstrating the depth to which GOD Incarnated (yes, Incarnated - dwelt in a tabernacle of flesh) the human condition. THIS is the Orthodox Christian doctrine or model - like it or not. From its internal validity, it is not 'association,' not 'shirk.' That is from an external position devised much later by Islamic theologians failing to see or understand (if not accept) the internal 'logic' of Christian theology and endeavoring to maintain absolute monotheism. The monotheism of Islam does however contain the 100 Names of GOD, and attributes are assigned to the Names. One might suggest that the absolute Oneness is compromised by this, if one is rigid enough in thinking.

Now ALL of these NT writings might turn out to be insertions and additions that were intended to focus all of the OT prophesies upon Jesus. The translations are numerous, unlike the Qur'an, but that Book was written after-the-fact as well by Caliphs, since Muhammad wrote nothing himself. Be that as it may - the correspondance in Christianity to Islam is NOT Jesus to Muhammed, it is Jesus to the Qur'an. It is a man to a book that is deemed equivalent ontologically. My Gnostic take is that the Word in Spirit precedes the Word in Letter. I get a sense from Scriptures, but the Living Reality of my faith comes through Experience [Gnosis] - through prayer [and prayer's results], through faith, through my growth in Wisdom and peace and fearlessness, and MOST of all through my growth in Compassion ["Allah the Merciful, the Compassionate"], which is the Highest Wisdom.

BTW, the only knowledge that the writers of the Qur'an had about Trinitarian doctrine, came from the very pagan Roman Catholic Church, whose non-Semitic Neoplatonic (Plotinus, Dionysus the Areopagite) underpinnings turned off those early evaluators of Catholic Trinitarian thought. Merely thinking that 3 Gods are involved shows the absolute misunderstanding of the doctrine that then became Scripture. All the subtlety was lost and pagan polytheism was seen in place of the difficult abstraction (some of which I summarized in another post in this thread).
Bottom line: Islam has a radical misunderstanding of Christian doctrine, and fought Christianity as they fought the paganism among the children of Ishmael.

Salaam Aleichem. Shalom. Pax. Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2330845 -

BTW...I am not GOD, and neither are you.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2330851 -

the deification of jesus christ, or the belief that christ is THE god, or thet 'the only way to heaven is through (him)" is just a result of the human need to be 'right'
what i mean is, jesus was no more the absolute god than me and you, than mohammed or moses of buddha or krishna, but when a brilliant compassionate man says 'follow me and you will be happy' it is the instinct of those you follow him to want to kill the people who dont..
i dunno, its amazing how no matter how diametrically opposed a religious teacher or his philosophy may be to dogma and extremism, his teaching, if popular enough, will give rise to exactly that

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2330885 -

True, the opposite of one profound dogma may be another profound dogma.


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----

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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2330889 -

and Dogma is a real bitch.  Get it dog MA(like female, female dog)? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----

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* Do you believe in God(christian)? jinc 1,128 7 11/27/01 09:49 PM
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