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Anonymous

Are some people not meant to believe in god?
    #1600465 - 06/02/03 04:38 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

As long as I can remember I've never believed there is a god. I never really understood what praying was. I live in a world, a perception, limited only to five senses. If I attempt to pray to god, it just seems silly to me. I feel like I'm just talking to the wall or the ceiling and wasting my time. I'm sitting here trying to figure out what all you spiritual people are raving about. When you pray, do you actually get a sense that you are talking to someone? Because I don't. I could never be able to believe there is a god and it will never change for the rest of my life.

Some other things that have come to my mind... Would you religious people have believed in or acknowledged a higher power if religion hadn't already been established in the world and became a widely accepted practice? I know that's pretty hypothetical, since religion and spirituality have been around forever. But I mean is, if you grew up in an environment that didn't even comprehend the thought of or know god existed, would you believe in god? I hope I don't offend anyone but sometimes I think that religion is mass mind control. But anyway, I guess this all comes down to, does spirituality come naturally within yourself or is it just another widely used thought process that you are adapted to in your environment. Since I could never believe in god, does this mean that some people in the world have certain traits that make them more susceptible to believing in or not believing in god?

I have other stuff to say about religion but it's mostly negative stuff so I won't go into it.


Edited by Anonymous (06/02/03 04:40 AM)


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InvisibleSHiZNO
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: ]
    #1600630 - 06/02/03 06:59 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

religion is pretty fucked up


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Offlinetoned3f
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: SHiZNO]
    #1600860 - 06/02/03 10:27 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Couldn't agree more Shizno. If most of the religious people in the world hadn't been force-fed whatever bullshit they believe since their youth then almost no one would actually have any faith whatsoever.


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Offlinesoylent_green
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: toned3f]
    #1601009 - 06/02/03 11:32 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i think lots of people are 'ment' to not believe in god..
no one can help how they feel about things..so why 'condem' them for it. i think goinig along with what you feel is the best way to go about things...

i grew up knowing about the christian god...but still not much about it till i was about 12, 13ish, and i became friends with a 'hard core' christian gril.
i went to curch with her a couple times, and didn't really feel comfterble with it.
it defently wasn't for me.
i new there had to be something different but i didn't know what (at the time, i never new about anyother religion i figured they were all pretty much the same)
so i just decided not to worry about it.
i figured if there was a god..than i doubt he'd wast his time on condeming me for something i couldn't help.
i still dont' know what i believe...i believe in something..that there is something more..
anything is possible.

and what about when religion was first created...back then there was nothing to feed it...and people still believed.
i wonder what/who started the beliefes in the beginning..?


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What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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Anonymous

Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: soylent_green]
    #1601217 - 06/02/03 01:36 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I always wondered who created religion. If by chance god(s) don't really exist and it's all a sham.... then whoever thought of it first was a genius. Is there actually like a documentary out there that tells about the origions of religion?

Now that I think about it, god isn't really a complex thing. Humans always need to have an answer to everything, to package everything up in a nice clean box. God is a pretty easy answer to how existance started. But anyway, I don't think it takes much to realize that everything just exists because it just exists. There isn't a meaning of life. There's not some guy watching everything everyone does every second of your life, taking notes and such, judging all your actions. Frankly, the idea of that kind of scares me. The whole scheme of it reminds me quite a lot like the book 1984. Somone watching you every minute of the day and scrutinizing every thought in your head. I know some people get positive things from being spiritual but I also know people who are living in their own religious prison throughout their whole life. It seems like the older I get the more religion sounds completely absurd. It's actually frightening how many people in the world easily believe something so obviously made up. I don't like judging people. If I was god, I wouldn't want a single person to have to go to hell. I wish everything and everyone would live in peace and a heaven-like state. I don't even believe there are truly bad people out there (except those evil conservatives in office  :smile:, jk). Wow, I'm really preaching now, so I'll just shut up.


Edited by Anonymous (06/02/03 01:37 PM)


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InvisibleSHiZNO
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: ]
    #1601236 - 06/02/03 01:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

yeah, its weird...they claim god knows all, sees all (THE FUTURE! (revelations etc))...then nothing matters, sincec he KNOWS you are going to be saved or not, so what the fuck is the point then? God must be an attention whore, "worship me or suffer forever"...its pretty screwed up, surely he wouldve known satan would come along...why would he LET that happen?

god made everything (mustve made bad things too, guilt etc)

the christian explanation is "you have free will"..but thats bullshit, god made EVERYTHING, including the sins! things cant 'just happen' after all (in creation)...and the fact you have already been pre determined to be saved or not (if he knows the future, its already set)

oh...and one other thing...PRAYER....what shit...i have NEVER once seen prayer work, or known anyone that has had prayer work...sure...you pray for everything, and SOME things come true "please god, get me from point a to b"...but does that mean praying did anything? No.
Someone should pray for a million dollars to appear, guess what...its not going to happen...i wonder why?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: SHiZNO]
    #1601257 - 06/02/03 01:50 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

God told me not to believe in him and I listened.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: SHiZNO]
    #1601284 - 06/02/03 02:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah. You have the free will.... to do what god wants or you'll go to hell! I refuse to live by God's rules. I will do whatever I want without persecution or judgement by a god. Now that is REAL free will.


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Offlinetoned3f
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: ]
    #1601301 - 06/02/03 02:10 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

There is no documentation on the origin of religion because polytheism alone outdates recorded history. Fatalists, who are almost always religious, believe in the lack of free will (Matrix, anyone?). I couldn't think of a more useless way to live life than that of a fatalist.


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: toned3f]
    #1601414 - 06/02/03 02:45 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

But of course, MATRIX!

Its good to believe and not to believe, i guess it depends how you look at it. All people are have a god, and its all in there heads.

However you have the ones in the box, the ones who say they communicate with the "holy spirit". Like my grandma, she'll shake, or roll around on the floor calming the spirit touched her. lol (of course now she too old to roll around on the floor) These people i don't understand, and in my opinion these are TRUE HALLUCINATIONS!


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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InvisibleSHiZNO
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1601533 - 06/02/03 03:29 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

ive heard people talk in tongues in church, while its interesting at 1st, i noticed they were saying the same shit over and over, every sunday...i can talk in tongues too and make it sound quite like them...anyway, EVERY religion has things like this, they ALL feel 'something/love' (why else would they keep lying to themself)...so is every religion right? No, each one claims to be The Truth (and usually has about 500 different 'versions' because noone can agree on THE TRUTH), and they all have some version of Hell...(well...not all...)



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InvisibleSHiZNO
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: SHiZNO]
    #1601537 - 06/02/03 03:30 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You cant tell me an "all loving" god would send billions of asians to hell because their nations are buddhist etc.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: SHiZNO]
    #1601541 - 06/02/03 03:31 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Most religions are not based on love, but on fear.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: ]
    #1601637 - 06/02/03 04:01 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not religious and I don't pray, but I used to be and I used to....

I think praying gives people false hope most of the time.. Instead of solving a problem themselves they might just sit down every evening and ask God for devine assistance.

"Oh heavenly Lord please save my dying son" - shit like that.. dude take 'im to the fuckin hospital!

I find that without prayer in my life, I tend to tackle problems a bit faster because I'm not counting on/waiting for "God" to assist me.

Its possible that God doesn't want some of us to believe, but I don't understand why that would be - many versions of "God" don't like people worshipping something other than "It."


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: ]
    #1602006 - 06/02/03 06:16 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Christianity as a word was clearly not used by Jesus, whose name really wasn't Jesus, but Y'shua, in Hebrew (which is our English name Joshua), and Isso, in Aramaic, which was probably what his Mother Miriam (not Mary) called Him. Jesus was a Greek name, but again there is no 'J' in Greek, only and 'I,' so really, it should be Iesus. And Christ, which is English for Christos, in Greek, means 'Annointed,' like a king is annointed ritually as a Divine Right of Kingship. In Hebrew, the title for one annointed is Meshiach (or Messiah, in English). All the Hebrew Kings were considered to be kings by Divine Right, and were all referred to as 'son of God,' in the Old Testament.


Christianity is like the game 'telephone,' with a whole historical line of people whispering a single message about the God-Experience of the man Jesus. So much distortion, so many hidden and political agendas from Constantine onward have left hardly any trace of the original Truth surrounding the man Jesus. Most of what people bring up on this forum reflects the doctrines that became dogma over time, dished out to generation after generation with 'believe it or else' attitude - a hostility and violence that has never had anything in common with the Master of Compassion, Forgiveness, Love, Impartiality and Wisdom.

In order to discover the Truth that Jesus manifested, and which began the Church that developed to honor that Truth, every individual must throw off everything they've ever learned about their religion, and make an individual quest for the Truth. This is an inward quest, supported in part by writings both Biblical and extra-Biblical, but put to a patient test - an individual experiment with Truth. This is very private, very personal and not for common conversation with those who are not making such a quest.

In my experience, I didn't decide to believe in anything other than what my rational and intuitive mind showed me, in conjunction with sense data. For me, it was Religious Experience of the mystical type that showed me whole new ways of being and that what is possible far transcended any understanding of life that I formerly had. I followed up with 30 years of study and experimentation with spiritual truths, and the trip has been positively transforming. Many without the enthusiasm and direction and that I have been 'graced' with, have fallen asleep in life, pursuing little more than 'the one who dies with the most toys wins' philosophy, or fallen into depression, despair, drug addiction or death by suicide. These are the rotten fruits of a life lived without Ultimate Meaning. Not everything is a vessel to contain such Meaning, and the quest for such a vessel is the symbolic Quest for the Holy Grail - it is the quest for a Life of Meaning.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1602083 - 06/02/03 06:42 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

and make an individual quest for the Truth. This is an inward quest, supported in part by writings both Biblical and extra-Biblical, but put to a patient test - an individual experiment with Truth. This is very private, very personal and not for common conversation with those who are not making such a quest.


Many people proclaim to live in The Word and fail to demonstrate it, so how can an outsider trust the word of someone who says they have been found? There is no clear-cut methodology for grace - it just happens (if indeed it does).

What is one to believe who has made the sincerest quest that he knows how to and has come up empty-handed? He should hope against hope for some miracle of faith based on your testimony (and others) and that of an ancient and distorted text, though a million steps has brought him not one inch closer to any form of Truth?

Should he give up the fruitless search and enjoy the material world while he may? Or spend his life looking for Alchemical gold though it may not even exist?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: Swami]
    #1602242 - 06/02/03 07:40 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Should he give up the fruitless search and enjoy the material world while he may?

An Epicurean might say so, but not I.

"Prayer does more than help us get what we want; it helps us become what God whats."


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: Swami]
    #1602285 - 06/02/03 07:52 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

STOP! Don't move a neuron. You don't have to DO anything. If the Truth is anywhere, it is closer to you now 'than your jugular vein,' so sayest the Muslims. No, do not wait for anything miraculous in the sense of physics-defying phenomena. IT is Present to you in any given minute. In fact, I have heard, and believed that very boredom is the 'springboard into Eternity.' You cannot come any closer to Truth, or synonymously, to Reality. It is, as Paul said, 'In God, we live and move and have our being.' It is a Realization, a making Real the awareness of this Truth. The utter simplicity of it escapes the mind looking for more, for other than, for something else. The Realization overwhelms the pain of our existence, the fear, the loss, the lack, the losing, the grief, the anxiety, the anticipation of the future moment, the regret for the past. It's not a Dove, a Halo, a roving star. The closest 'thing' is silence, a breath. A moment ago we were a rock, NOW look at us, and the best is yet to come - Awareness Itself - Infinite - Eternal - Transparent - Fearless - Unbearable Compassion. It's Here, Now, I sense it -there's a slight smile on my lips as I type this - through my back pain, though my Father languishes in a nearby home, in sight of my canine friend Ben's gravestone, it's in your words, it's in you - so help me God.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (06/02/03 10:24 PM)


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OfflineVulture
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1602500 - 06/02/03 09:08 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i didnt read all the relies and shit but here are my thoughts



i think some people are just born being skeptical about some things. as with me ive been raised by a familly with very stong christian beliefes. I was taken to church...went to private school (until middle school). My sisters,mom and dad, EVERYONE in my familly is you typacle close minded christian.

oh i forgot an important point. i think it could be a gene or soemthing some people have. when i speak of people as my mom,dad,sister and everything its not really boilogical. See i was adopted by my grandparents when i was an infant because my real dad didnt have the finacial fund to take care of me because my real mom had just left. Later we also found out he had a bad coke/alchohol problem which later led to crack. So when i say mom and dad jsut leep that in mind. Also my mom is my real grandmother and she remarried so my dad is in no way realated to me in blood.....and my sisters are really my aunts (2 not blood related and one is). My dad has recovered and has been living with us for a couple year now trying to get on his feet and make enough money as an electrician to live his own life again, but his time sober. I will call him my real did if i refer to him and not just dad. Also i will refer to my real mom the same way.

so anyway my dads side of the familly is extremely closed minded. Escpecially about religion...if he knew what i thought i would not have a place to live. My mom has the same belifes but she has an open mind and is not all obsessed. Also her side of the familly (my biological one) is the same way, with a few exceptions. Now my real mom which i only have one pic of (prom pic of her and my real dad) and never spoken too untill this dec. and that was only for like 10 secs when she traked me down and called the house and i talked to her and she started crying uncontrollably after about 5 sec....so i handed the phone off to my dad. I have nothing against her really but shes not signifigant to me really. But for the sake of the whole gene thing, i only know what people have told me about her but they sayed she was a con artist from hell and had the same drug problems as my dad and just was generally a wild person.

ok so as i said i was raised surrounded by the whole god thing and ever since the first thing i remeber i have doubted it. I have always thought about deep stuff and philisofical stuff. I always was skepticle about religion....it just never made sense to me to just believe it bacause everyone says its right. I knew there were other religions although i didnt know anything about them or anyone that practiced them. But i just wouldent believe something simply because a book said so. Everyone i knew was christian so to me most people were christian. I considered myself christian.....but i knew consiously that the basis for me believing that was just because i was ignorent about everything but that. I was ignorent of the fact that the bible wasent proven to be historically acurate, at least not most of the key parts.

everytime i would ask anyone something questioning the bible or why it was like that or why other religions arent right i would get the typical christian answered that had no hard truth or evedence. stuff like.... because the bible is the truth and its all in faith. So i knew i woudlent get anything constructive out of them so i jsut went along with the whole thing to this day for fear of people in my familly thinking im a bad person or something. But even in my young mind it was impossible for me to just "have faith". I cant just do that without some kind of personal interaction or soemthing. Kind of like how my parent used to always use that "because i said so thing" constantly and i would get so pissed because i wanted a damn good reason and all i got was that. I would argue about how that wasent a reason that just an ascuse becasue you really dont have a good reason.

and to this day i keep it to myself when it comes to familly, because i love my familly ad i dont want to dissapoint them or have them think bad of me. I mean my grandpa preaches constantly if you do so much as grow your hair past your eyebrows.

so all my life i see people just base there life on stuff because other people said so. or becasue that waht everyone did. I really dweeled on this in high school. I dispised how people would follow the crowd and i would let everyone know it. I had (and still do) have many friends that are like this. I dont hold it against them or discriminate casue they are good people and i dont really think its there fault. But i jsut dont see what kind of logic these people have. I have givin up arguing witht hem about it casue it wont work. At least with people like me i can have a good argument with reasons that make sense. without that its just a waste of time.

all through high school me and a few friends always wondered what was different about us. How come we ware like this? How come we dont have some kind of fucked up logic like the rest of the sheep?

when i went to college i took sociology and that has opened my eyes a lot. I realized that noone can help the way they are....i have pearned about how babys and kids imitate the people they look up to and that they are automattically conditioned to have the same beliefes as there familly as long as they have a good familly life. My familly life was great....and ive thought the way i think since i was little. So why did the whole conditioning and sociolozing not work for me. Why did i not have the kind of warped thinking as everyone else? I know i didnt get it from anyone else.

so in conclusion i think some people are just born to resist some kinds of sociolozation and are born with there own logic and ways of thinking that cant be affected by conditioning.....they have a different sort of way of thinking and logic than the sheep.


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Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.


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OfflineVulture
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Re: Are some people not meant to believe in god? [Re: Vulture]
    #1602550 - 06/02/03 09:23 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

btw i consider myself agnostic. I dont think any religion is right untill proven so. I think one should leran about all religions. Personally i take aspects of a lot of them and incorperate those into my life. I think most religions are good in that they help people lead good lives. But i also think that there bad in a way and go against themselves because it causes people to really loses part of there free will and if its not tru then its a lie...and thats contradicting itself. They are bad because they make people fight. They are the reason for a lot of the struggle and wars and conflict in this world. They help people lead good lives in the small picture....but in the big one (which is more important and signifigant to me) they casue more harm than good.

so mabe the bible is right to an extent. mabe a lot of the philosofies are right but are merely misinterpreted. If you think of god as yourself then you can lead your life like a christian but intead of beliveing in god as its pictured in the bible you believe in yourself. I know that how i am. Maby we are god. we are ment to have faith in ourselves. And the bible could be the work of satan because it makes people beilieve something else before themselves. They dont even think naturally....they base everything on what someone else did. Mabe religion is the work of satan and its really part of the whole revalations thing. Revalations is a book that i think has something more to it becasue you can apply it to a lot of stuff. Religion or christianity falls under a lot of the things revelation talks about being of satan. The whole illusion thing and how everyone its gonna seem like everyone believes it and  how it seems like it can solve the world problems but tis really the base of the problems but people dont see it.


Believe in yourself. Think for yourself. Treat others how you would be treated. And have an open mind. Thats my philosofy.

:smile:


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Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.


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