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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2353532 -

You can't prove or disprove the existence of God logically or philosophically.  Although you could potentially define the rationality of such a belief, the proof won't be solid evidence.

If a sandwich exists, I dont read an essay to find out.  I pick it up and eat it before someone else does.  If God exists, then there will be a way to empirically experience God, outside of some formula.

:sun:


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2354324 -

"Why can't both God and Logic exist, with God being superior to Logic?"

You misunderstood; i meant God and logic cannot exist if logic is the most ultimate aspect of existence.

"But I believe the process is random as opposed to deliberate because it makes so many mistakes: why would the process intentionally create bizarre disfigurements with no utilitarian function? The mutation doesnt determine utility, the situation does. And the situation is in a state of constant flux. "

How can you "believe" something is random? Just because you know zero about it, it does not mean "oh its probably just random".

I would say that those fluctuations would have to be random, or at least as close to random as they could possibly be, in order to produce the diversified universe that we see. I mean, its not like the first stars were in neat little rows and columns.

"close to random"

It now is apparent and blatantly obvious that you don't know what random is. Nothing can be 'close' to random. It seems like you have this infatuation with randomness and chaos theory.

Until you understand how EVERYTHING works, with no unkown variables, you cannot say with certainty that randomness is impossible.

Okay let me analyze your statement right there and give you more of an idea of my perspective. You statement involved thought. Your statement makes a logical claim. until i understand how everything works, I cannot say randomness is impossible. I'm going to take a step back here and ask you why you think your statement means anything to me? As far as your theory goes, logic isn't the most ultimate aspect of existence. But, that statement is based on a logical conclusion. I can understand that statement because it makes 'sense' - it's logical. But this statement poses a claim that deals with EVERYTHING, as you put it. So, if logic is not the most ultimate aspect of existence, your sentence means nothing. It passes by as if it never was. I am trying to show you how necessary logic is. 1 + 1 = 2. if god created logic, could he have changed that?

Now to answer that claim. Once again, my theory has 2 OR'd conclusions. Not 1, but 2! randomness cannot exist in the realm of logic is all I am saying. beyond logic, nothing can be proven impossible because proof requires logic!!!

:stoned:

pattern: this is not solid proof. ONCE AGAIN. read the conclusions at the top of the argument. *sigh*


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Edited by yewhew (02/19/04 10:41 AM)

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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2354636 -

Quote:
You misunderstood; i meant God and logic cannot exist if logic is the most ultimate aspect of existence.




OK, that makes sense. 

Quote:
How can you "believe" something is random? Just because you know zero about it, it does not mean "oh its probably just random".



I wouldn't say I know "zero" about it.  And I'm not assuming its "probably just random".  I have concluded that it may be random based on the observable data that we have right now.  I noticed you didnt respond to my actual arguement.  If the process is deliberate, then why does it make so many mistakes?  Evolution is just a series of accidents; the happy ones get selected and the unhappy ones don't.  I think most biologists would agree to that. 

 
Quote:
"close to random"

It now is apparent and blatantly obvious that you don't know what random is. Nothing can be 'close' to random. It seems like you have this infatuation with randomness and chaos theory.




I'm pretty sure I know what random is.  I was accomodating your position by adding a provisio that perhaps there is no such thing as random.  Perhaps things can have an asymptotic relationship with chaos. 

What I mean by "not quite random, but close" is like computer random number generators.  No they are not truly random, they work on an algorythm of some kind (perhaps you know something about these and could explain it to me), but they are "pretty close"- close enough for programming an object that behaves like a tossed die in a manner that is very close to the real thing. 

And no, I'm not a big fan of chaos theory.  My understanding of it is that it doesnt actually support the idea of chaos.  It basically says that no process is random if you have enough data about the mechanisms and situational parameters that govern it.  My position is that there will never be "enough data" to do this for the totality of all things.

Quote:
Okay let me analyze your statement right there and give you more of an idea of my perspective. You statement involved thought. Your statement makes a logical claim. until i understand how everything works, I cannot say randomness is impossible. I'm going to take a step back here and ask you why you think your statement means anything to me? As far as your theory goes, logic isn't the most ultimate aspect of existence. But, that statement is based on a logical conclusion. I can understand that statement because it makes 'sense' - it's logical. But this statement poses a claim that deals with EVERYTHING, as you put it. So, if logic is not the most ultimate aspect of existence, your sentence means nothing. It passes by as if it never was. I am trying to show you how necessary logic is. 1 + 1 = 2. if god created logic, could he have changed that?




Yes, I am aware of the fallacy of using logic to disprove the validty of logic.  But if i am correct then that fallacy doesnt matter  :tongue:

Oh, and God didnt create logic; humans did.  You could say that God created the universe to behave logically, but how would you know that we are simply just percieving it that way?  Reason is best assigned after the fact.  It is very difficult to apply reason to the present, nearly impossible to apply it to the future.  If it were possible for you to predict the future with 100% accuracy (which could never really be established, given your finite lifespan), then I would gladly invest in whatever stocks you pick. 

Quote:
pattern: this is not solid proof. ONCE AGAIN. read the conclusions at the top of the argument. *sigh*


read the title of your post *sigh*

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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2355913 -

read the title of your post *sigh*

I need to get people interested enough to read this :grin:


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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2355974 -

Aside from the glorious wank that this entire thread is, the only true point of the god does/does not exist argument is the question, does the concept of god serve any useful function. I think not. It certainly has no predictive value and any position on anything can be justified by reference to a deity. The toaster was not invented by someone praying for lightning. There is nothing positive that can come from a belief in god that could not otherwise be more easily obtained through other methods. A worthless, and as history has proved deleterious, concept. K. Vonnegut, "if god gave me intelligence why would he/it expect me to believe in him." Or something like that.


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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2356080 -

All assertions of inherent value are subjective. You could prove why a person doesn't need a toaster with ease. The belief in God has nothing to do with 'use'. It's all about the dimensions beyond the visual reality, and the miracle the All is.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2356340 -

What an unrelenting totalty of nonsense that post was. It should be preserved as one of the finest examples of dogmatic, circular pap, especially the signature, ever penned. Awe inspiring. My hat's off to you.


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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2356439 -

Please don't make any assumptions about how dogmatic I am. If you're not mystically inclined, that's fine. So you don't wonder about the beauty of existance. Just politely disagree with me, if you could.
I'm not monotheistic, by the way, and don't believe in a God with a personality. Assumption: void.

Here's the argument for not needing a toaster: why heat your bread to a crunch if you can eat it as it was baked? It's analogous to your argument for being an atheist. I can spell it out for you if you think it's circular pap.

Regarding the signature: it's from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, a good read in itself. So our senses of humour differ. No problem. Good luck growing.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2356647 -

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was a farce. It was a joke. "Don't forget your towel." I didn't say you were dogmatic, I said what you wrote was dogmatic drivel. Hell why not just chew the wheat raw, why bake at all. Why cook? "We're living on nuts and berries" David Byrne, at least the equal of Richard(?) Adams.

I don't mean to be rude but I just thought your first post to me was insane, something Syd Barret would say. Today. It sure didn't seem like you thought the signature was a joke. How 'bout this, just for fun, "the unlived life is not worth examining"


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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2356685 -

*shrug*
Yeah I'm thinking god doesnt exist either...but everyyone is entitled to their own opinion. So yeah.

(Slightly drunk, please excuse errors)
-dose


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For a reliable vendor with high quality merchandise at a great price, try BBB

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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2358760 -

This thread reminds me of a network of computers arguing over whether or not humans exist.... :grin:

Seriously.
Peace.


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2359126 -

zappaisgod said:
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was a farce. It was a joke. "Don't forget your towel."


That I know. Note that I wrote "So our senses of humour differ".

Quote:
I didn't say you were dogmatic, I said what you wrote was dogmatic drivel. Hell why not just chew the wheat raw, why bake at all. Why cook? "We're living on nuts and berries" David Byrne, at least the equal of Richard(?) Adams.


So you didn't get my analogy. A toaster is a device used by those who want to make more of their gastronomy than ordinary bread will offer. I didn't say we shouldn't bake bread. I said toasting it is an extra. I never eat toast. Personal preference. Searching for the divine is for those who seek out the beauty, the multi-layeredness and the more-than-perceivable. It's personal preference whether you choose to believe, as it is to acquire a toaster. Just because you yourself don't feel religion has anything to offer, doesn't go to say it can't for everyone else.

Quote:
I don't mean to be rude but I just thought your first post to me was insane, something Syd Barret would say. Today. It sure didn't seem like you thought the signature was a joke.


The value of any way of life is subjective. Even the use of an invention is subjective, since not everyone's life will be enriched by the invention in question. How is this insane?
Religion isn't about practicality. Pragmatism is based on the material, whereas religion is not. How is it insane?

Quote:
How 'bout this, just for fun, "the unlived life is not worth examining"


I disagree. Empathy is one of the most important qualities a human being can have.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2359153 -

Quote:
This thread reminds me of a network of computers arguing over whether or not humans exist....


:smile: :smile: :smile:

:thumbup:

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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2359947 -

i love how everybody talks as if they actually have answers to these questions...we know NOTHING!


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ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.

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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: TODAY]
    #2360235 -

I know all, but nobody listens. Call me .....Cassandra

The first clause in my original post referred to what a glorious wank this whole thread is.

Doctor, you overrate humans. Soon enough there will be no reason for computers to consider us deities, although they will be able to.

Alan, "The unlived life is not worth examining" line has nothing to do with empathy. It has to do with the concept of pointless navel-gazing espoused by one of the "great" Psychotherapists, "the unexamined life is not worth living." I can't recall which fraud said this, Freud, Jung, Adler... Arrogant jackasses that they were.


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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2360319 -

Quote:
Alan, "The unlived life is not worth examining" line has nothing to do with empathy.


Seems to me that line does, as you do not live the lives of others. I just gave my interpretation of those words, since I'd never seen them before.

Quote:
"the unexamined life is not worth living."


Since that's another quote, it means a different thing.

That's the last I'll say, since this is getting way off-topic.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2360835 -

Quote:
Doctor, you overrate humans. Soon enough there will be no reason for computers to consider us deities, although they will be able to.



"Soon enough"? I study neuroscience at UTD- the department they have there is closely linked (you might even say subordinate) to the Computer science department. They are working on AI and neural network emulation pretty hardcore up there with TI's and EDS's money. Maybe they keep the good shit from me, but from what I know they're still rubbing two sticks together on that shit.

I will not exclude your prediction from the realm of possibility, however, I will add that if computers do surpass humans it doesnt make them any better than us. Without us there would be no computers, just like without the universe there would be no us.

But you probably are right about me overrating humans. My expectations of humanity are WAY too high, and this is a constant source of frustration for me.

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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2362679 -

Soon enough there will be no reason for computers to consider us deities
unless they crash and start crying for their mommy to reboot them

although they will be able to.
if by consider you mean following an instruction

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