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Offlineyewhew
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Proof That God Does Not Exist
    #2350903 - 02/18/04 05:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Ultimate Logic Theory: My theory that logic is the most ultimate aspect of existence.

My argument reaches 2 OR'd conclusions. Conclusion a) God exists but not in the realm of logic and therefore it is impossible to prove or disprove his existence because proof requires logic, as does thought b) God does not exist. (in the realm of logic, which is the ultimate realm anyway)

Some definitions:

God = something for which responsibility is given for the actuality of existence. [this is the only God I am working with here; any other God is not responsible for the actuality of existence and therefore the question of what is responsible still remains. If God is a super-powerful being that is not responsible for his own existence, he is not the most ultimate being]

The argument in English form:

God created existence. Experience is a part of existence. Therefore God created experience. To be responsible for the creation of something you must have awareness/knowledge of the creation process. To have awareness/knowledge you must have experience, as awareness is itself an experience. Therefore, experience is required for the creation of experience. But, experience did not exist before it was created. Therefore God did not create experience. Therefore God did not create existence. Therefore God does not exist. (read over the definition to learn why.)

The argument in logic form:

G = God exists (using our definition of God)
E = God created existence
X = God created experience
R = God is responsible for the creation of experience
A = God has awareness of the creation of experience

(1)G > E, (2)E > X, (3)X > R, (4)R > A, (5)A > ~X, (6)~X > ~E, (7)~E > ~G, /|- ~G

8. G (Assume; Reductio Ad Absurdum)
9. G > ~G (1-7; Hypothetical Syllogism)
10. ~G (8, 9; Modus Ponens)
11. G & ~G (8, 10; Construction)

11 is logically absurd, therefore God does not exist.


Comments welcome! :wink:


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Edited by yewhew (02/18/04 05:07 PM)


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2350938 - 02/18/04 05:14 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

So you don't believe matter has come out of a vacuum either? That would be a logical conclusion along the same path.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2350949 - 02/18/04 05:15 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

> 11 is logically absurd, therefore God does not exist.

Assuming that God obeys the laws of logic.


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OfflinetrendalM
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2351126 - 02/18/04 05:54 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

So you don't believe matter has come out of a vacuum either? That would be a logical conclusion along the same path.

Countless experiments have already shown that matter is created from "nothing" in a vacuum, quite constantly.

In fact there is no such thing as "empty" space because of this constant creation-destruction-creation that occurs in any vacuum :wink:


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The story book's been read
And every line believed
Curriculum's been set
Logic is a threat
Reason searched and seized


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: trendal]
    #2351363 - 02/18/04 06:47 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Well... if that's true, God could have been created ex nihilo as well.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2351443 - 02/18/04 07:08 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

God created existence.



I think I found your problem right there. God didn't create existence. God IS existence.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2351686 - 02/18/04 08:20 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Ultimate Logic Theory: My theory that logic is the most ultimate aspect of existence.

See my thread titled Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe for why this is probably not true. Also, I have to agree with silversoul. If God is the source of existence, then it must have exnihilated unto its own accord.


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Offlineyewhew
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: silversoul7]
    #2351715 - 02/18/04 08:27 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

If God is existence, God is not responsible for his own existence using ULT (Ultimate Logic Theory). To be responsible you must be aware, to be aware you must experience, etc.


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Offlineyewhew
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: ]
    #2351789 - 02/18/04 08:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"Yet, scientists and mathematicians have been unable to find a pattern in the prime numbers. They appear to be, at this point in time, slightly random."

No they are not random. For something to be random it must come about without having a reason. When I try contemplate a random number between 1 and 5... say 3.. that number is NOT random. Ok back to the prime numbers thing. Prime numbers are not random because they have a definition and a reason. A prime number is a number that the only numbers that divide into it are 1 and itself. 3 is a prime number because only the numbers 1 and 3 divide into it. If the universe was otherwise would 3 not be a prime number? Would 2 suddenly divide perfectly into 3? Your attempt to link randomness and prime numbers fails miserably here.

This reminds me of a very typical sort of thinking. Consider this series: an = (-1)^n
Now, try finding the sum of this series as an infinite series, ie: the sum of the series as n approaches infinity. Well a1 = (-1)^1 = -1, a2 = (-1)^2 = 1, a3 = -1, a4 = 1, etc.

So,
(1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + (1 - 1)... so you would think the answer is zero as all terms cancel, but it can also be:
1 - (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + (1 - 1)... so you would think the answer is 1.
An ancient mathematician thought that this proved that God existed because he has "created something out of nothing". Well, the true answer is that the series is divergent.. it does not converge to any number.  :cool:


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Edited by yewhew (02/18/04 08:45 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2351791 - 02/18/04 08:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I never said he is responsible for his own existence. Existence is not something which is created or destroyed. It is merely in constant change.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2351885 - 02/18/04 09:09 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ultimate Logic Theory: My theory that logic is the most ultimate aspect of existence.





HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

You have a lot to learn, rookie.

Logic is only a small fraction of a greater whole, which is chaos.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2351989 - 02/18/04 09:35 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Just curious. How does this Ultimate Logic Theory hold up to Bells Theorum of Non Locality?


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2352022 - 02/18/04 09:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I think the only conclusion to be made from this is that we have no fucking clue what happened


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2352042 - 02/18/04 09:47 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

VIII. THE NEURO-ATOMIC CIRCUIT
Hold on to your hats and breathe deeply--this is the farthest-out that human intelligence has yet ventured.
Consciousness probably precedes the biological unit or DNA tape-loop. "Out-of-body experiences," "astral projection," contact with alien (extraterrestrial?) "entities" or with a galactic Overmind, etc., such as I've experienced, have all been reported for thousands of years, not merely by the ignorant, the superstitious, the gullible, but often by the finest minds among us (Socrates, Giordano Bruno, Edison, Buckminster Fuller, etc.). Such experiences are reported daily to parapsychologists and have been experienced by such scientists as Dr. John Lilly and Carlos Castaneda. Dr. Kenneth Ring has attributed these phenomena to what he calls, very appropriately, "the extraterrestrial unconscious."

Dr. Leary suggests that circuit VIII is literally neuro-atomic--infra, supra and meta-physiological--a quantum model of consciousness and/or a conscious model of quantum mechanics by the turned-on physicists discussed previously (Prof. John Archibald Wheeler, Saul-Paul Sirag, Dr. Fritjof Capra, Dr. Jack Sarfatti, etc.) indicates strongly that the "atomic consciousness" first suggested by Leary in "The Seven Tongues of God" (1962) is the explanatory link which will unite parapsychology and paraphysics into the first scientific empirical experimental theology in history.

When the nervous system is turned on to this quantum-level circuit, space-time is obliterated. Einstein's speed-of-light barrier is transcended; in Dr. Sarfatti's metaphor, we escape "electromagnetic chauvinism." The contelligence within the quantum projection booth IS the entire cosmic "brain," just as the micro-miniaturized DNA helix IS the local brain guiding planetary evolution. As Lao-tse said from his own Circuit VIII perspective, "The greatest is within the smallest."

Circuit VIII is triggered by Ketamine, a neuro-chemical researched by Dr. John Lilly, which is also (according to a wide-spread but unconfirmed rumor) given to astronauts to prepare them for space. High doses of LSD also produce some circuit VIII quantum awareness.

This neuro-atomic contelligence is four mutations beyond terrestrial domesticity. (The current ideological struggle is between circuit IV tribal moralists-or-collectivists and circuit V hedonic individualists.) When our need for higher intelligence, richer involvement in the cosmic script, further transcendence, will no longer be satisfied by physical bodies, not even by immortal bodies hopping across space-time at Warp 9, circuit VIII will open a further frontier. New universes and realities. "Beyond theology: the science and art of Godmanship," as Alan Watts once wrote.

It is therefore possible that the mysterious "entities" (angels and extraterrestrials) monotonously reported by circuit VIII visionaries are members or races already evolved to this level. But it is also possible, as Leary and Sarfatti more recently suggest, that They are ourselves-in-the-future.

The left-lobe terrestrial circuits contain the learned lessons of our evolutionary past (and present). The right-lobe extraterrestrial circuits are the evolutionary script for out future.

Thus far, there have been two alternative explanations of why the Drug Revolution happened. The first is presented in a sophisticated way by anthropologist Weston LaBarre, and in an ignorant, moralistic way by most anti-drug propaganda in the schools and mass media. This explanation says, in essence, that millions have turned away from the legal DOWN drugs to illegal HIGH drugs because we are living in troubled times and many are seeking escape into fantasy.

This theory, at its best, only partially explains the ugliest and most publicized aspect of the revolution--the reckless drug abuse characteristic of the immature. It says nothing about the millions of respectable doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc., who have turned away from second circuit intoxication with booze to fifth circuit rapture with weed.

Nor does it account at all for the thoughtful, philosophical sixth circuit investigations of persons of high intelligence and deep sensibility, such as Aldous Huxley, Dr. Stanley Grof, Masters-Houston, Alan W. Watts, Carlos Castaneda, Dr. John Lilly and thousands of scientific and lay researchers on consciousness.

A more plausible theory, devised by psychiatrist Norman Zinberg out of the work of Marshall McLuhan, holds that modern electronic media have so shifted the nervous system's parameters that young people no longer enjoy "linear" drugs like alcohol and find meaning only in "non-linear" weed and psychedelics.

This is certainly part of the truth, but it is too narrow and overstresses TV and computers without sufficiently stressing the general technological picture--the ongoing Science-Fiction Revolution of which the most significant aspects are Space Migration, Increased Intelligence and Life Extension, which Leary has condensed into his SMI?LE formula.

Space Migration plus Increased Intelligence plus Life Extension means expansion of humanity into all space-time. SM + I? + LE = infinity.

Without totally endorsing Charles Fort's technological mysticism ("It steam-engines when it comes steam-engine time"), it is obvious that the DNA metaprogram for planetary evolution is far wiser than any of our individual nervous systems--which are, in a sense, giant robots or sensors for DNA. Early science-fiction of brilliant writers like Stapledon, Clarke, Heinlein; Kubrick's 2001--all were increasingly clear DNA signals transmitted through the intuitive right lobe of sensitive artists, preparing us for the extraterrestrial mutation.

It is scarcely coincidental that mainstream "literary" intellectuals--the heir of the Platonic-aristocratic tradition that a gentleman never uses his hands, monkeys with tools or learns a manual craft--despise both science-fiction and the dope culture. Nor is it coincidental that the WHOLE EARTH CATALOGS - created by Stewart Brand, a graduate of Ken Kesey's Merry Pranksters--are the New Testament of the rural drop-out culture, each issue bulging with tons of eco-technological information about all the manual, dextrous, gadgety know-how that Plato and his heirs consider fit only for slaves. Not surprisingly, Brand's latest publication, CO-EVOLUTION QUATERLY, has been devoted to publicizing Prof. Gerard O'Neill's space-habitat, L5.

Nor is it an accident that dopers seem to prefer science-fiction to any other reading, even including the extraterrestrial-flavored Hindu scriptures and occult-shamanic circuit VI-VIII trip-poets like Crowley and Hesse.

The circuit VI drugs may have contributed much to the metaprogramming consciousness that has led to sudden awareness of "male chauvinism" (women's liberationists), "species chauvinism" (ecology, Lilly's dolphin studies), "type-G star chauvinism" (Carl Sagan), even "oxygen chauvinism" (the CETI conference), etc. The imprinted tunnel-realities which identify one as "white-male-American-earthian" etc. or "black-female-Cuban" etc. are no longer big enough to enclose our exploding contelligence.

As TIME magazine said on November 26, 1973, "Within ten years, according to pharmacologists, they will have perfected pills and cranial electrodes of providing life-long bliss for everyone on Earth." The 1960s hysteria about weed and acid was just the overture to this fifth circuit break-through. Nathan S. Kline, M.D., predicts real aphrodisiacs, drugs to speed up learning, drugs to foster or terminate any behavior. ... Those who were jailed or beaten by cops in the 1960s were forerunners of the Revolution of Inner Technology.


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Anonymous

Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2352142 - 02/18/04 10:04 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

If you look up the word random in your dictionary, you'll see they are random according to the definition of "having no specific pattern", although your definition of the word is also valid. The prime numbers are random in comparison to the natural numbers. If we actually counted in prime numbers instead of the natural numbers, you would see that other numbers can be derived from multiplication of them. Thus I assert that prime numbers literally are the original numbers of the universe and that all other numbers "in between" them were derived by necessity, for obvious practical purposes. If we take away the definition and labels we give to "prime numbers" there are still numbers that exist in nature that are indivisible by "whole" numbers (except by the number itself and 1, which can be ignored anyway because it is a technical nicety espoused by mathematicians which serves no purpose as no one for any reason needs to divide by 1). Do you know why we count by 1? Because it is the smallest prime number which is valued more than nothing. (Well duh) BUT suppose we counted by prime numbers, and suppose you were counting a row of windows on a building and were counting by 2. Now suppose there are "16" windows (but you don't really have a name for that number because you count in primes). So you count 2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2 windows, or 8 sets of two windows. So we give this sum 16 a label according to base-10 rather than identifying it as 2*2*2*2. My point is, the primes are not derived from or an inherent property of the natural numbers. Rather, the "missing" natural numbers arise from multiplication of primes. And I will add that division and multiplication are basically the same operation, just in opposite directions.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: ]
    #2352196 - 02/18/04 10:17 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

another real-life example of randomness:

When mitosis occurs, the cells quite frequently make 'typos' when transcribing the genetic code, either deleting genes from or adding new genes to the chromosome. The result is mutation, which fuels the process of evolution and natural selection. Without mutation, there would be very little, if any, difference or progress in organisms.

These genetic errors could be said to be random, because they follow no set pattern, and the mechanism behind why they occur is not understood by science.

Chaos is the essence of life and the universe. Without it, everything would be static and unchanging.


--------------------
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Offlinefirstrays
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2352470 - 02/18/04 11:37 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

>Ultimate Logic Theory: My theory that logic is the most ultimate aspect of existence.

Theory is not proof until tested... SHOW me.

Not that I'm saying "god" exists anymore than yourself... I just think your idea of subjecting the idea of god to logic is a little thin. According to the established religion, man cannot understand god, what makes you think that the idea of god follows logic, theory or laws?


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Everybody knows you love me baby, everybody knows that you really do. Everybody knows that you've been faithfull, awww, give or take a night or two.


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Offlineyewhew
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2352495 - 02/18/04 11:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"These genetic errors could be said to be random, because they follow no set pattern, and the mechanism behind why they occur is not understood by science."

Just because we do not understand that process, it CERTAINLY DOES NOT mean it is random. I have come across many a person confusing this until they actually think it through and realize what a HUGE mistake they are making. Example: you ask me to think of a number between 1 and 10. I say 5. You have absolutely no way of knowing that I was going to think of 5. Is 5 a randomly generated number? NO. Is it randomly generated to you? NO. Maybe to you it SEEMS like its random, but it most certainly is not! If a number is generated randomly it means that there is no reason why that number was generated. No reason means no logic and hence randomness does not exist in the realm of logic. Randomness, God, Fairies and Peter Pan CAN exist beyond the realm of logic, however.


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Edited by yewhew (02/18/04 11:44 PM)


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Offlineyewhew
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: firstrays]
    #2352520 - 02/18/04 11:49 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Not that I'm saying "god" exists anymore than yourself... I just think your idea of subjecting the idea of god to logic is a little thin. According to the established religion, man cannot understand god, what makes you think that the idea of god follows logic, theory or laws?

*Yaaaawn*. How many people have made this mistake after reading my theory I can't even count. Sheesh. If you actually read the conclusion part of the theory at the top (yeah that would have been a good idea before posting an objection) you would realize there are 2 OR'd conclusions. My argument says that God necessarily cannot exist in the realm of logic, however, if logic is removed from the equation, it is not impossible for him to exist. I basically am forcing any believer to accept the fact that if God exists he exists beyond logic. I personally think its an accomplishment.. it's as far as human reasoning can go with respect to the question of God.


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Edited by yewhew (02/18/04 11:51 PM)


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Proof That God Does Not Exist [Re: yewhew]
    #2352605 - 02/19/04 12:13 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I believe that randomness can exist in reality because reality is bigger than logic.

Determinists use the "we don't understand that yet" excuse all the time, and it gets old real quick, because it has always been applicable, and I believe it always will. I believe that there will always be something that we do not understand. Until you understand how EVERYTHING works, with no unkown variables, you cannot say with certainty that randomness is impossible. You're calling the game early and I aint buyin it. I hate to be a doubting thomas, here but SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!! If you can find a way to predict the stockmarket I'm sure you'll have plenty of it.

As far as your refutation of my example goes, I will concede that i do not know for sure that the process of mutation is random. But isnt not knowing for sure a part of being random? The point I'm really trying to get across here is that logic has limits as to what it can describe and explain.

But I believe the process is random as opposed to deliberate because it makes so many mistakes: why would the process intentionally create bizarre disfigurements with no utilitarian function? The mutation doesnt determine utility, the situation does. And the situation is in a state of constant flux.

but here, let me try another one:

The first stars in the universe were much bigger in than the ones today. They were created by density fluctuations in the initial cloud of hydrogen atoms created by the big bang. These density fluctuations caused pools of atoms to bunch together and eventually collapse on their own gravity and become stars. What caused these fluctuations? Physics says gravity ripples that resonated from the Big Bang, but the fluctuations did not appear to behave in any kind of uniform fashion; if they did, the universe would be a lot more uniform. I would say that those fluctuations would have to be random, or at least as close to random as they could possibly be, in order to produce the diversified universe that we see. I mean, its not like the first stars were in neat little rows and columns.


Quote:

My argument says that God necessarily cannot exist in the realm of logic, however, if logic is removed from the equation, it is not impossible for him to exist.




Why can't both God and Logic exist, with God being superior to Logic?

Quote:

I basically am forcing any believer to accept the fact that if God exists he exists beyond logic.




that I can agree with. Fortunately humans are equipped with both logic and abstract intuition, so we can know both God and the Universe if we learn how to use both.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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