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OfflineAlan Stone
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God = Jesus?
    #2316945 - 02/09/04 08:44 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Today in my religion class (I'm studying to be a religion teacher) we were talking about the life of Jesus Nazarenus, AKA Emmanuel, AKA son of God. The teacher - who himself is a priest - said that he believed God and Christ are one and the same.
I went ahead and pointed out that in those times, any king would be called 'Son of God' or even 'God'. So, technically, if Jesus was a political rebel with a great philosophical message (which I believe to be true), he could have been seen by some as the King of Jews, so basically 'Son of God' in that function.
Next: the resurrection of Christ. I don't buy this at all. Maybe he was buried alive, maybe he was in a coma or something, but resurrection seems to be highly unlikely. BUT, this and his miracles is what basically proves him to be the son of God, right? Or am I seeing this the wrong way?
The New Testament can't be used as 'evidence', because it was written after his death. Furthermore, Luke had never directly known Christ, and the book's been edited numerous times.
In the book of Genesis there's talk about how the worship of false deities is wrong. Would the worship of a deceased human being not be considered the same?

I'm not trying to disprove the basis of Christianity here, as I'm sure it must seem, but I'm curious as to what (especially) the Christians in this eloquent community think.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Anonymous

Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2317067 - 02/09/04 10:12 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Jesus is no more or less God than you and me. He was simply highly enlightened for his time. He knew absolute truth of love. We are ALL the sons and daughters of god. Jesus was just a great master(teacher) soul that "tried" to show us the way.

when jesus pointed, everybody just looked at his finger, instead of seeing what he was pointing at!......LOVE! he is no more god than hitler or saddam. We are all equal, but he was, like i said, a highly enlightened soul.


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Anonymous

Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2317073 - 02/09/04 10:16 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Jesus is no more or less God than you and me.  He was simply highly enlightened for his time.  He knew absolute truth of love.  We are ALL the sons and daughters of god.  Jesus was just a great master soul that "tried" to show us the way.

when jesus pointed, everybody just looked at his finger, instead of seeing what he was pointing at!......LOVE!  he is no more god than hitler or saddam.  We are all equal, but he was, like i said, a highly enlightened soul....trying to wake all of us up so we could be as enlightened.  that'll be the day... :smirk:  its happening all slower than a fucking slug on weed, but eventually we will all awaken  :grin:


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OfflineSpokesman
The HighPhilosopher

Registered: 08/05/03
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2317107 - 02/09/04 10:32 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I very much agree with much of what your saying. As go able as people were back then you can't give Jesus anymore credibility than Buddha or any other religious figure. Jesus referred to "god" as his father so many called him the son of god. But Jesus ALSO referred to everyone else as children of god.

As for the resurrection, many belive that the bible hints at Jesus being buried alive, escaping and running off to another country but thats another huge discussion that deserves a thread of its own and a conspiracy theorist with time to write away.

Jesus was an incredible smart man who's Philosophy was to ahead of it's time for the Jewish people to accept. He spoke of the kingdom of heaven and shared new teachings of peace and righteousness. But he was no doubt a human, and we cant ignore that we even on the bible his humans traits are noticeable. He expressed anger at times. He asked god if there was anyway that he didn't have to go through what he was about to go through in his last prayers, he even asked god why he had abandoned him in one of his final phrases on the cross.

The fact he predicted his own early demise doesn't make him a supreme being. I mean Tupac Shakur predicted his own death, and many others. Many of them were smart individuals with radical ideas about the world but we're not praising them right? I just think that people were so go able and so swept up on wars and religion that they misinterpret


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2317132 - 02/09/04 10:43 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Does your teacher honestly truly believe in all seriousness, that Jesus died and resurrected on the third day?
I think it's obvious that certain elements of the bible such as these cannot by all means be taken in all seriousness, but moreso on a symbolic level.
Am I being too optimistic in assuming that this conclusion may be prevalent in most educated minds, at least in those of the religion teachers, such as yours?



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2317298 - 02/09/04 12:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)


a few authors who have approached the thorny problem of the incarnation, mission, death, resurrection, & divine nature of yeshua ben yosef...
(the list is by no means inclusive, and it is quite possible that their various viewpoints might, ummm, diverge...)
~
aldous huxley, alan watts, hugh shonfield, robert morton, john shelby spong, teilhard de chardin, albert schweitzer, edmond bordeaux szekely...
plenty more...
~
~
(if your instructor is a priest, does this mean we can assume you are in a roman catholic college of some sorts???)


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineSpokesman
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Registered: 08/05/03
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: gnrm23]
    #2317392 - 02/09/04 12:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've got some Alan Watts audio on this, i'll share it with you if i find it, just PM me. It's called Alan Watts- 'Jesus His Relion or The Religion About Him.'


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Offlinefirstrays
Title? We don'need nosteeenkingtitle!
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Re: God = Alan Stone? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2317425 - 02/09/04 12:52 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

^It's basically the same thing.

Facts: Jesus of Nazarath was a great man, a powerful teacher, and charismatic.

Fiction: Immaculate conception, son of god, raised from the dead.

The Ressurection was adopted from pagan beliefs, as was Christmas... most christian holidays are "borrowed" from older religions. They did this for one reason, to ease the conversion to christianity for the "heathens"... worship "our" god, keep "your" holidays! It's been proven by CHRISTIAN historians that Jesus was born int he spring, not the winter... it's all there, written in history,... you just have to look for it.

Sounds like your instructor is teaching FAITH, not history.


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Everybody knows you love me baby, everybody knows that you really do. Everybody knows that you've been faithfull, awww, give or take a night or two.


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2317472 - 02/09/04 01:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not a Christian, but I've had nine years of forced indoctrination of the protestantic xian faith in school.

According to them:

God = Jesus = The Holy Spirit

Fact: Immaculate conception (possibly not a fact but a mistranslation, but it doesn't matter.. this is a catholic thing), son of god (and at the same time God), raised from the dead (very important and very true, not a metaphor or anything)


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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Offlinefirstrays
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: muhurgle]
    #2317507 - 02/09/04 01:17 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry muhurgle... your basing your facts on faith, not history... Truth? Prove it, without pulling the faith card. Anything without proof is just a really good story.


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Everybody knows you love me baby, everybody knows that you really do. Everybody knows that you've been faithfull, awww, give or take a night or two.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2317511 - 02/09/04 01:19 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Next: the resurrection of Christ. I don't buy this at all. Maybe he was buried alive, maybe he was in a coma or something, but resurrection seems to be highly unlikely.



I suggest reading a book called "The Passover Plot," by Hugh J. Schonfield. It provides an interesting alternative theory about the resurrection.

BTW, Jesus is God, as are you, as am I.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGeeno
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Registered: 08/29/03
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2317561 - 02/09/04 01:36 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Believe me, the last thing jesus cares about is his physical form. Or midgets.


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InvisibleNariusFractal
Sat Chit Ananda
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: firstrays]
    #2317797 - 02/09/04 02:36 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

firstrays said:
Sorry muhurgle... your basing your facts on faith, not history... Truth? Prove it, without pulling the faith card. Anything without proof is just a really good story.




Check muhurgle's post once more, he said "According to them:"

that glaring "FACT" made it hard to distinguish, to me anyways.


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2317844 - 02/09/04 02:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I learned that Jesus is the Son of God, but also "God" made man. It's basically called "the Trinity", three Gods... Father, Son and Holy Ghost...but they're all one God.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Frog]
    #2317877 - 02/09/04 02:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to this and what you already said,

Quote:

Frog said:
... three Gods... Father, Son and Holy Ghost...but they're all one God.




A lot of Muslim and Jewish theologians are curious how Christianity can truthfully call itself a monotheistic religion.

To the Christian, however, the Trinity is composed of 3 'beings' of differeing fundamental existences, yet at the same time it is considered one 'being'.

That description is not very good, though. does it make sense?


--------------------
You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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Invisiblejpod
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Registered: 10/14/03
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2317883 - 02/09/04 03:00 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Stone said:
The New Testament can't be used as 'evidence', because it was written after his death. Furthermore, Luke had never directly known Christ, and the book's been edited numerous times.





What is your reasoning for insisting that written evidence was made before the death of Christ? The book of Matthew, for example, was written by its namesake who was one of Christ's apostles. The purpose of the book was to relate his observations and the teachings of Christ to his fellow men. I would imagine that, being one of Christ's apostles, Matthew would have been busy following Christ while He was still alive, and would leave any teaching up to his master. Of course, after Christ died, it would have been up to Matthew (and other apostles) to spread the word of his master. Also, it is believed that while Matthew wrote the book around 42-68AD in Greek, many of the quotations of Christ were based off of earlier personal notations made in Aramaic.

If one believes that the book of Matthew accurately relates the life of Christ, then the following passage is relevant to the discussion:

Quote:

Matthew 3:16-17
(16.) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (17.) And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.




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OfflineSpokesman
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Registered: 08/05/03
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: Frog]
    #2317885 - 02/09/04 03:00 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The trinity sounds like a lousy theory to give Jesus the GOD title. Just because god said "man is now like us" in Genesis, doesent mean he was talking to Jesus or the holy spirit. He could have been talking to a million other gods, or maybe he's schitzo i don't now.


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: God = Jesus? [Re: firstrays]
    #2317982 - 02/09/04 03:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry, wasn't being clear enough. I'm just explaining what everybody here learns (state religion is a nasty thing). And we learn that these are facts.

I don't think any historical records can be taken as pure facts. There's almost always a bias, and especially so for religious history. For all I know Jesus of Nazareth is purely fictional, but I don't really care.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Registered: 11/23/02
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2318198 - 02/09/04 04:33 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Does your teacher honestly truly believe in all seriousness, that Jesus died and resurrected on the third day?



If he doesn't, he'd be a hypocrite for all the times he's said he does.

Quote:


Am I being too optimistic in assuming that this conclusion may be prevalent in most educated minds, at least in those of the religion teachers, such as yours?




In this case, yeah. However, I think you'd be right on the whole.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Registered: 11/23/02
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Re: God = Jesus? [Re: gnrm23]
    #2318209 - 02/09/04 04:35 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gnrm23 said:(if your instructor is a priest, does this mean we can assume you are in a roman catholic college of some sorts???)



Yeah. It's basically catholic, but people who live by all creeds can go there. You don't have to be a practising Christian to go there, or to become a religion teacher, for that matter. The content of religion classes is mainly Judeo-Christian though, based on the Good News Bible.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Amazon Shop: Aldous Huxley

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