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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2099411 -

Shamanism didnt require conquest, its point was to live in harmony with the land and use it to aid in the development of their peoples.
Pardon, but your ignorance is showing. Shamanism (and it's sub-branch of sorcery) was used for divination (seeing the future - as in enemy attacks) and for killing one's enemy. Is that "harmonious" living with neighboring tribes?

Who are we to say what it was good and wasnt good for, seeing as how we are not in that time period,
Never mentioned "good" once Mr. Strawman; only present-day survival. Try to stay on track.

Cultures in europe were very much interested in conquest, and cared little if at all for other peoples beliefs, they at most wanted land and gold.
So what?

To my understanding on your position , You believe that they are full of crap, and that if they had been in touch for what they supposedly call "over mind", they could tell it what to do and it would save them.
Even though each shamanic culture was different, that essentially was THEIR CLAIM, not mine - and is proved to be pathetic in the face of real physical power.

But to deny the possibilities of the "powers"/knowledge they DID have is to assume more than is possible.
The "proof is in the pudding" as the saying goes.

Many architects today and within recent history have believed that they
They build for the interests of the people they are contracted to build for. Maybe this is altruistic or whatever you want to call it, but if architects were really interested in building for efficency, they sure would build like it. Im getting to the point.... So if they build these buildings that are ineffecient and only serves as a means to produce more for the economy and those that only serve for their own needs, does that necessarily mean that it is good for everyone and everything over all?
Huh?

Look at our world today, go out into any city, and just stare. Stare around, and breathe the nice smoggy air, let it fill your lungs, go sit inside a nice greasy restauraunt and let the oils float through your skin. You live in vegas right?... look at the signs... look at the people.. just sit and watch... and watch some more...
Relevance? Because Vegas is a city of excess means that shamans were successful?

The shamans had realized this planet was key to ensuring their own survival.. they lived WITH IT not against it.
It was not higher spirituality, but fewer numbers that kept the land relatively unpolluted. India is considered a holy country, but is a cesspool.

But i think its pretty weak argument to assume that because of our technology, that that necessitates a better life style,
I think it is incredibly weak reading comprehension to assume things that I did NOT say.

And sure you may make the argument that without these certain events and the europeans interest in technological advancement we would not be here right now holding this discussion. But does that necessarily mean that shamanism is obsolete?
The shaman DID NOT protect the tribe into the modern era. That would seem to relegate him to obsolescence for that major function, now would it not?

Editor's note: Very few, if any, responses were free from overt emotionalism and going completely astray. Where is the self-control? Have we learned nothing?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099450 -

"The shaman DID NOT protect the tribe into the modern era. That would seem to relegate him to obsolescence for that major function, now would it not?
"

U missed the point man, the shamans werent some suprnatural all healing god that could protect the tribe forever. They were healers of nature, using meditations and herbs and the spirit for healing, something that the humans of today have Long forsaken. And besides, shamanism was just a practice, like todays religions and martial arts. You act like it was suposed to save thier primative society from our booming cannons of waste and disease along with it a cloud of global destruction, fullfilling the ancient prophocies for the end of time, which is 2012

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2099461 -

Oi Vey!


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099605 -

truekimbo2 said:
i would like to point out that nearly every civilization on earth had some form of magic/shamanism. yes even europe, yes even the christians.

not only ARE there poeple with superpowers, who can do things you prefer not to even dream of, but there have always been and always will be until the end.

no civilization is more or less advanced magically or energetically speaking, but its all about individuals who actually dare to aspire. and if every now and again something they find gets passed into the culture so be it.


as far as healing goes i know a jewish kid that walks around new york with a sign offering his services for free that taught himself to heal energetically. no acupuncture or anything. they made a documentary about him, i can't remeber what its called. he's cured cancer, he's like early 20's. he makes cuts and aches go away instantly.





Swami, in regards to what you mention, or skirt, of what Shaman's abilities were back in the ancient times and so on... My Theory

here's an excerpt:

Shroomism said:
I think that it far surpasses our current western medical understanding of human anatomy and healing. And considering they had this thousands of years ago, that's a pretty big statement.





Exactly...and thats what I'm questioning and trying to analyze here... how, why, what, where, HOW did it all start? Did it start from basic instinctiod urges that we all naturally have towards progression of health and betterment of ourselves? Or simply just started as an idea, with the minds of that specific era, that time where mind's were almost like brand new blank computers waiting to be programmed with information via experiences, minds that were not really restricted with education of laws of science, nature, and physics, etc... it seems like while the west of the world leaned more towards scientific methods of approaches...the eastern parts of the world leaned towards more inner spiritual approaches towards healing, which, in itself, could be considered a type of science, the west got more into medicine, man-made medicine, chemicals, etc...while the easterners stayed with more natural, alternative, mental, herbal, spirititual, etc approaches towards medicine, as a matter of fact, if you open up most Alternative Medicine books, most of those are derived from Ancient Asian cultural methods, etc...but thousands of years ago... those people had no formal education that restricts imagination like it does to most people TODAY..we all "know" too well about what we CANT do..rather than what we CAN do.... Thousands of years ago, People's minds had the "freedom" to believe as strongly as we do about gravity, about sticking needles in their body and eatin hallucinogenic cactii and chantin with incense, curing illnesses and diseases...so, of course, today you wont see many people being able to cure and heal with pure thought alone...BUT it has been documented before...telekenisis is another example of the power, of the mind...so is it so inconcievable that if one can defy the "laws" of gravity or common sense, or logic, as far as being able to bend spoons with pure mental-willpower, that one could just as easily be able to heal with thought? Tibetan Monks have been known to heat wet sheets on their body, simply by concentrating their mind on making their body radiate heat...Just imagine what else they can do, with THE POWER OF THEIR MINDS...So, was it pure imagination that sparked the IDEA that putting needles in your body would cure certain illnesses...or was it something innate, something instinctiod? or was it some form of higher power pushing them in the right directions, hinting them via subconscious levels? I've known quite a few people who strongly believe that the subconscious mind KNOWS ALL....It not only knows where the fuck your keys are...but it knows that theres somebody looking at you, right now, behind you..and that theres a spider in the left corner of the ceiling...But, because we all ignore this innate, natural, "talent" that we're born with, from day one...most of us aren't honed into it enough to develop it fully, but, some are luckier than us...but I do know that there WAS a lot MORE "Luckier" people back then...namely Shamans..


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2099621 -

So, was it pure imagination that sparked the IDEA that putting needles in your body would cure certain illnesses...or was it something innate, something instinctiod?

I have had several sessions with an acclaimed accupuncturist with ZERO relief.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2099629 -

BUT it has been documented before...telekenisis is another example of the power, of the mind... as far as being able to bend spoons with pure mental-willpower, that one could just as easily be able to heal with thought?

Oh, Jesus! Another rube taken in by Uri Geller's stage magic. Puh-lease! As the first part of your statement is fallacious, your collorary does not follow.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099730 -

Swami said:
I have had several sessions with an acclaimed accupuncturist with ZERO relief.


That's just YOU. What about all those all folks who have experienced it and benefited from it and actually did heal from it?
Could it just be that you were too skeptical-minded? Maybe simply because you didnt truly BELIEVE that it would work, that you didn't benefit from it.


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2099828 -

Could it just be that you were too skeptical-minded? Maybe simply because you didnt truly BELIEVE that it would work, that you didn't benefit from it.

Of course you are making the typical false assumption. I went ACTUALLY hoping (and spending my own hard-earned money) for pain relief. Naturally, when no relief was noted, it must have been my "fault".

So you are saying that the modality is irrelevant? If so, then why not say that "belief" works rather than stimulating meridians works?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099875 -

What exactly did you get acupuncture for?

I know many that have reaped the benefits of acupuncture, myself included. It is certainly not a cure-all, but it can do wonders for improving many things. Also, a proper acupuncturist will recommend certain herbs and certain exercises as a supplement to the acupuncture, for full healing effects.


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099898 -

by saying how I believe that much of our "reality" is deeply rooted in the power of our mind, that IS basically what I'm saying, that "Belief" works, rather than stimulating meridians, or, at least, has a dramatic effect on it....it would depend on the mental conditioning of the person in question.
The bottom line I'm getting to, is with the theory of how much of our reality is "Bent" and "Shaped" and controlled by the power of our minds, how strongly we believe in this and that, etc etc, that it isnt too unplausible that the shamans indeed did have supernatural or paranormal powers, by today's standards at least...because the people at those times were "unrestricted" by the imagination-bounding knowledge that people of today's society is pounded with in their head from day one. Intuition is also another one of our natural abilities that is sadly stunted and hindered by the societies we live in today, with what all the "westernization" rampantly reigning the world and so on.


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099950 -

Modern medicine and technology cured my mom's breast cancer.

I honestly don't think a shaman could have done that......






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"Puny earthlings do not yet know the meaning of the word suffering!!"


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Necron99]
    #2099955 -

Maybe breast cancer wouldnt have been a problem back when true Shamans existed.... :wink:


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2099972 -

Why would you assume that?

Probably buttloads of tribal women have died of breast cancer....


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"Puny earthlings do not yet know the meaning of the word suffering!!"


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2099974 -

SkorpivoMusterion said:
(snip)


here's an excerpt:

Shroomism said:
I think that it far surpasses our current western medical understanding of human anatomy and healing. And considering they had this thousands of years ago, that's a pretty big statement.


Exactly...and thats what I'm questioning and trying to analyze here... how, why, what, where, HOW did it all start?


Well, you're assuming that the medical knowledge of the ancients surpassed our own, which it did not. I don't see how believing that "evil spirits" or the like caused disease could be considered "superior" to our own medical knowledge.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Necron99]
    #2099995 -

Quote:
Why would you assume that?

Probably buttloads of tribal women have died of breast cancer....



Why would you assume that? :smirk:

http://altmedangel.com/am.html 


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Necron99]
    #2100004 -

Necron99 said:
Why would you assume that?

Probably buttloads of tribal women have died of breast cancer....


That is, if they didn't die first from childhood diseases, childbirth, or even something as simple as a common cold turning into pneumonia. Even at that, most Neolithic era people died before their 30th birthday.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #2100018 -

What 9000 BC europeans? That wouldn't surprise me.

What about the Chinese, who used herbs and other holistic methods for healing? They had a life expectancy of 61 years in that era.


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2100339 -

you never answered my question


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2100607 -

Modern man, to a large degree, has lost contact with any concept of an overmind. Ancient tribal societies had a belief system based upon an overmind. They had Shamans who managed to take care of them for many hundreds of years, meeting the medical and spiritual needs of the communities they lived in. They have only failed in not being able to find a way to coexist with humans i.e us, who have no interest in coexisting, only in domination. Are you suggesting that because we have successfully dominated these cultures that they are in someway flawed? Perhaps the powers attributed to their shamans are overstated, perhaps not, we can all have our opinions on that matter. But just because their shamans were not able to fight off western culture like a bunch of powerful Gandalf's on acid does not in one fell swoop negate any other claims attributed to these shamans.
Perhaps the overmind knows what its doing in the long run anyway...


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2100776 -

Actually shamanism still exists, and its existance is proof of its still having life and viability for those who study it. There are very ancient shamanic systems such as the Bonpos, and the Chodpas, the Shaktas, American Indians, Inuit, and many more. It;s said that England has more Wicca than Anglicans now. Shamanism isn't dead, and it hasn't failed. Religion and Science have failed to protect life on earth. The Earth teeters more precariously now than ever before, because of science and religion. Shamanism could be a cure to the nightmare of modern life.


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...or something






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