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Offlinejoeshitragpicker
Home Sweet Home

Registered: 10/17/02
Posts: 1,265
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2097935 - 11/12/03 06:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"It has become appallingly clear that our technology has surpassed
our humanity." - Albert Einstein


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Invisibleeric_the_red
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Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 12,831
Loc: happy land
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2097997 - 11/12/03 06:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Why did Shamanism fail?

when was it decided that shamanism has failed and who made that decision? shamanistic cultures may have been greatly overshadowed by other cultures, but that doesn't mean shamanism has failed. shamanism works for some people, but not for everyone. the same can be said for all religions and cultures.

why have almost all shamanic socities failed miserably when it comes to basic survival against technological advancement?

what kind of technological advancements are you referring to? shamanism was around before modern technology. shamans were/are responsible for the healing advancements of thier time. some of modern "technology" has evolved from shamanic practices. shamanism has probably adapted to modern technology as well.

the role of the shaman has been removed from many societies and the responsibilities and power has been distributed among multiple individuals.


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Anno cock? is that some kind of Greek liqueur? -Geo's All Knowing Sex Slave


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Anonymous

Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2098003 - 11/12/03 06:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:

But since we are on the subject, lets look at what our modern technological marvels have given us... SARS, aids, mad cow disease, alzheimers, cancer, smog, global warming, etc...
Quite a tangential rant you go on here. The FACT of the matter is the the least shamanic societies (like the USA) are enormously successful in survival.






Hardly tangential, his point is a direct counterpoint to yours when measuring the "success" of your culture. Has our culture taught us to live better than the natives? Where were their prisons, nursing homes, bankrupt school systems, etc? Surely they didn't survive well during the onslaught of western diseases but neither did the Western culture during the Spanish Flu that killed between 20 to 40 million people world wide before it finally dissipated on its own without a cure. This was during the 20th century!

And if you are measuring "success" in terms of survival when one culture dominates and destroys another I suggest you get a new yardstick. That is, of course, unless you think that might makes right.

I think you are conflating Shamanism with Supermanism. I don't think anyone would argue that the Western culture is more technologically advanced but that doesn't mean that Shamanism was a effective tool for waging war. Hell, they warred with each other and someone had to lose.

Let me dispose of two myths here. First, many shamans didn't practice healing until disease came. There is a body of evidence that shows they didn't begin to use plants for healing until the white man came and brought disease with him.

Second, the idea that the average lifespan has dramatically improved over the years thanks to modern medicine is also false. People lived a lot longer than we commonly assume.


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Anonymous

Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: ]
    #2098016 - 11/12/03 06:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

And by the way, before Westerners start bragging about their putative "success" let's give it a little time, shall we? The natives were on these continents for at least 20,000 years.

Let's see how long you last.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2098075 - 11/12/03 06:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
If Shamanism puts us in touch with the Overmind or our Ancestors or the Ground of Being, and can be used for healing and divining (finding food, seeing future enemy attacks) why have almost all shamanic socities failed miserably when it comes to basic survival against technological advancement?




First you assume that being "in touch with the Overmind etc" would give some advantage over technological advancement. There is no reason to assume that.

Secondly, shamanism is very old, eventually a new belief system will replace it.  Evolution.  Shamanistic societies were great in their day.  Do you have no respect for history?  :rolleyes: 


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man = monkey + mushroom


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Invisiblebuckwheat
Cynically Insane

Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: ]
    #2098091 - 11/12/03 06:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

mr.mushrooms.. exactly

and swami you call the US succesfull it has not been here that long.most "technologicly advanced" cultures wouldnt last that long in the amazon unless they tore it down and paved it with cement. and this they call advanced they are all a bunch of Inspector Gadget's. thats all it is stupid gadgets.


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OfflineCrass
Explorer of theMind

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 626
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: buckwheat]
    #2098251 - 11/12/03 07:45 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Are we talking about shamanistic culture as of NOW ?

I dont know about you guys but have you talked to many 'native americans'  or other people from shamanistic cultures ? I havn't talked to many but the ones that I have or know someone who knows them they arnt too happy. Alot aspire in one way or another to be more 'modern'. Right now some of those poor ass jungle dwellers arnt the happiest in the world while we plow down their villages... or those shamans in upper canada (i think ontario) that beg us for 'fire water' or for us to fuck their women for money.

Just playing a little devils advocate  :devil:.. i hope some of that made sense 


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2098328 - 11/12/03 07:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

well what about better technology?? what could arrows do against gun powder? the reason I say this is because we took the land away from many of the natives, and the weapons had a lot to do with.


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2098380 - 11/12/03 08:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Why couldn't they use their shamanistic powers to put a hex on the invaders or get plans to build better weapons or armour from the spirit world? How come they couldn't foresee the smallpox infected blankets?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblechunder
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 966
Loc: The City
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: ]
    #2098449 - 11/12/03 08:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

And by the way, before Westerners start bragging about their putative "success" let's give it a little time, shall we? The natives were on these continents for at least 20,000 years.

Let's see how long you last.


Right on.


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OfflineBhairabas
Stranger

Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 889
Loc: Toronto Canada
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2098475 - 11/12/03 08:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I don't know where you get your info but the native's in upper Canada Huron/Iroquois were a stones throw away from completely destroying Detroit, and most settlements in the area.. If the French didn't give up the war they would have succeeded in wiping out our ancester's which would of had a huge effect on how the evolution of the northeast evolved.. It's basicaly pure luck they didn't succeed..


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Bhairabas]
    #2098482 - 11/12/03 08:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

But they DIDN'T.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2098525 - 11/12/03 08:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
If Shamanism puts us in touch with the Overmind or our Ancestors or the Ground of Being, and can be used for healing and divining (finding food, seeing future enemy attacks) why have almost all shamanic socities failed miserably when it comes to basic survival against technological advancement?





Survival against what technological advancements? You mean like when we plow down their rainforest? Or when we shoot neutron bombs at them?

Either way you are looking at it from the WRONG angle. If domination of another culture is what is considered advancement in today's society, then we definitely need a change.

Just because they might have been able to forsee a future attack, does not mean they could adequetely defend themselves against forces much more overwhelming. Having the ability to heal minor bodily mishaps with herbs and other natural methods does not mean they can ressurect someone from the dead.

They survived in the wilderness with little but what the "Overmind" gave them. The Europeans could barely survive through a winter in the new world without resorting to cannibalism. All of a sudden we have technology and weapons of destruction, and we are the dominant ones? Think again. If anything, we could learn from them.

Why continue the plight of our technology age by justifying negative and harmful technologies.. when we could be bettering both our society and the shamanistic ones, by creating technology that is harmonious to the environment, and would help everyone? Because that's not the American Dream right? You must dominate and destroy, not help and nourish to grow and evolve.
Well that age is over and done with. Soon the "reality" will be forced back onto the people of Earth, and we will see, the Shamanistic people had it right the first time.

Shamanism did not fail. Human judgement failed.


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OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2098665 - 11/12/03 09:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Many starving in the winter, tribes attacking other tribes, high infant mortality - these things are "doing just fine"?




well, I suppose that depends on what standards you use. Sure, the Indians had hardships, just like everyone else. But I don't believe that any of the pre-European hardships they faced were threatening to wipe out their entire society and culture.

My point is that Shamanism is not self defeating- it takes an outside influence to destroy a shamanistic society. I guess the question you have to ask yourself there is whether the Indians themselves were responsible for not being able to defend themselves, or is it the Europeans' fault for committing the various atrocities and thefts that they did.

I mean, we are currently pretty capable of taking care of ourselves (world problems aside) as it is right now, but some highly advanced alien race could take us out with superior technology. Would that be our fault or theirs?


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'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineBhairabas
Stranger

Registered: 07/21/03
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Loc: Toronto Canada
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2098752 - 11/12/03 09:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

And I bet they kick themselves everyday..


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Loc: In the hen house
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: buckwheat]
    #2099016 - 11/12/03 10:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

and this they call advanced they are all a bunch of Inspector Gadget's. thats all it is stupid gadgets.

Yet, YOU are using those gadgets that you decry to transmit your opinion - no hypocrisy there.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: eric_the_red]
    #2099036 - 11/12/03 11:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

when was it decided that shamanism has failed and who made that decision?
IT was decided when shamans failed to protect the tribe - simple as that.

shamanistic cultures may have been greatly overshadowed by other cultures, but that doesn't mean shamanism has failed.
I guess NO SURVIVAL equals a smashing success in your mind.

shamanism works for some people, but not for everyone.
Yes, it worked for duping the tribesmen, but not the invaders who did NOT believe.

what kind of technological advancements are you referring to?
(I love it when they play dumb!) A piece of iron tubing and a lead ball apparently is more powerful than the Overmind. How can one defend the power of a seer who cannot "see"? "Well, they could see minor stuff, but nothing life-threatening..."





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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (11/12/03 11:01 PM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099037 - 11/12/03 11:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It isn't hypocritical to use a piece of technology while still recognizing that the culture that created it isn't superior to cultures that didn't invent such things. It would be hypocritical if they said it was *wrong* to create or use technologies but they didn't.


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099135 - 11/12/03 11:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

In your argument i saw that in order to make your position true you posed the question that was leading..in that you think that All shamanism falls under one category, and that nothing of it is true, and that because of their ignorance they have died out, rendering their whole system of knowledge meaningless..

* Uh... Honor... is He Leading the witness?"

this seems like a leading question... and im probably re stating what a lot of what other people have already said. Shamanism didnt require conquest, its point was to live in harmony with the land and use it to aid in the development of their peoples. Who are we to say what it was good and wasnt good for, seeing as how we are not in that time period, and we know little of what knowledge they possesed in relation to healing/taking care of people? Cultures in europe were very much interested in conquest, and cared little if at all for other peoples beliefs, they at most wanted land and gold.

You have to realize that beliefs are just beliefs, and that their culture and belief system for shamanism is like anything else, it changes and it discovers new things. To my understanding on your position , You believe that they are full of crap, and that if they had been in touch for what they supposedly call "over mind", they could tell it what to do and it would save them. Okay sure, i agree with you on the point that it didnt work, and therefor must not be applicable, IN THAT CASE. But to deny the possibilities of the "powers"/knowledge they DID have is to assume more than is possible.

Many architects today and within recent history have believed that they are doing the best to fit the needs which they are building for, (imo if they wish to call themselves an architect). They build for the interests of the people they are contracted to build for. Maybe this is altruistic or whatever you want to call it, but if architects were really interested in building for efficency, they sure would build like it. Im getting to the point.... So if they build these buildings that are ineffecient and only serves as a means to produce more for the economy and those that only serve for their own needs, does that necessarily mean that it is good for everyone and everything over all?

IMHO, NO. So if these shamans are really trying to help out with building naturally, and if this natural means serves to over all help the society in which they are a part of live with the land, wouldnt that be a good thing?

While in europe disease was ravaging many places, peopel dying everywhere, going into churches where they thought they would be safe, but only spread the disease. While they continued to build and create things which they thought were more efficient.

Look at our world today, go out into any city, and just stare. Stare around, and breathe the nice smoggy air, let it fill your lungs, go sit inside a nice greasy restauraunt and let the oils float through your skin. You live in vegas right?... look at the signs... look at the people.. just sit and watch... and watch some more... Then drive out of the city. Breathe in... and what... what is that... Fresh Air? That which sustains our life and gives us breath... yes... The shamans had realized this planet was key to ensuring their own survival.. they lived WITH IT not against it.

You can decide for yourself which route would be better. But i think its pretty weak argument to assume that because of our technology, that that necessitates a better life style, or that we will be saved from the savage unpredictable world!

And sure you may make the argument that without these certain events and the europeans interest in technological advancement we would not be here right now holding this discussion. But does that necessarily mean that shamanism is obsolete?


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What?


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Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2099219 - 11/12/03 11:45 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Ask Kali


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...or something







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