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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7695319 - 11/29/07 05:34 PM (14 years, 5 days ago)

The trick is to be influenced by those you consider authority figures.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695320 - 11/29/07 05:34 PM (14 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

And don't give me definitions. I can use a dictionary, but I don't cause they're full of crap.




This wins the most ridiculous statement of the week award! :trophy:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7695327 - 11/29/07 05:35 PM (14 years, 5 days ago)

Yeah, that's pretty worthy all right.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOrbus
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7695369 - 11/29/07 05:43 PM (14 years, 5 days ago)

Well if you think you can find real knowledge in a dictionary be my guest. Oh and maybe I wasn't being completely literal with that statement. Just maybe.

As for how to tell who is an enlightened person, they would likely exhibit some of these qualities or describe their experience like this.



1. The experience of nothingness:

No other state of human existence gets to be permeated with the all-encompassing feeling of nothingness. Regularly, we go through life by experiencing the feelings of gain or loss. We reach for something and attain it, or we fail to attain it and then have to cope with the rejection. Or, the flip side of the coin would be that we try to avoid the unpleasant situation and manage to succeed doing it, or fail and have to face the consequences of enduring the unpleasant ordeal. Whichever the case may be, there is no place in this busy enterprise of ours for any feelings of nothingness to creep in.

Upon suddenly seeing into our true self-nature, we are left with that unique 'aroma' of nothingness. Some people think that it is a literal, that is a literal black-and-white not anything nothing nothingness (meaning either everything becomes either pitch black or totally white, with no discernment and differentiation.) Not true. Everything is as it is, and if at that moment a car is rushing toward you, you would see it and you'd move out of its way. So, in this respect, it is important to stress that Enlightenment is not a state where all the cortical neural activity has ceased. You continue to function as every other sentient being.

What is this nothingness business then all about? In Buddhism, Zen, and Enlightenment nothingness is refered to as the "great void" or Sunyata, and in general, presented in the sutras and elsewhere similar to the following:



The sutras often use the word "great void" to explain the significance of Sunyata. In general, we understand the "great void" as something that contains absolutely nothing. However, from a Buddhist perspective, the nature of the "great void" implies something which does not obstruct other things, in which all matters perform their own functions. Materials are form, which by their nature, imply obstruction. The special characteristic of the "great void" is non-obstruction. The "great void" therefore, does not serve as an obstacle to them. Since the "great void" exhibits no obstructive tendencies, it serves as the foundation for matter to function. In other words, if there was no "great void" nor characteristic of non-obstruction, it would be impossible for the material world to exist and function. (source)



Enlightenment, is a very unsophisticated state of affairs. To the mind that used to harbor lofty ideals and grand plans, it is a very disappointing incident indeed. You may be saying to yourself: "All these years I have spent building a more perfect head to put on top my own head, and now I see how it's been totally in vain!"

2. Everybody else is also Enlightened:

The insight that everybody and everything has surfaced to the Enlightened state of mind simultaneously with you is definitely accompanying the very moment of Realization. This is why you know that the reality is perfect. It is not perfect in its potentiality, it is perfect in its fully actualized state, standing with you hand in hand, face to face. The "everybody is also Enlightened" statement can become confusing, of course, because the first thing everybody says is "Hey, I'm Enlightened." However, the Enlightened state is a "non-dualist" attainment, thus there can not be an "I'm," nor a "you Enlightened, them not" as there is no longer a you and them (dualist). In the story at the top of the page the wandering ascetic, called Upaka in the Sutras, meets the Buddha face to face and was unable to discern his Enlightened state. When the one-day-to-become Sixth Patriarch Hui-neng was Awakened out of nowhere as a young boy and met the Fifth Patriarch Hung-jen for the first time, Hung-jen, although remaining silent in front of his disciples, recognized Hui-neng's Attainment. In When Infinities Collide there is another outcome.

In Buddhism, Zen and the Enlightened sphere the foundation of the non-dualist realm is Dependent Origination:

NOT ONE THING Anekaartham:

Dependent Origination, properly understood, denies that anything is absolutely singular. A thing is nothing more than the coming together of all its causes, and no thing has a single cause. So even though a thing may be perceived a single thing, reflection will always reveal that it is in fact a multiplicity of factors complexly arranged. What we take to be an individual (literally undivided whole) is never in fact indivisible. For Nagarjuna this means that no physical thing is simple; every thing is composed of parts, and therefore is liable to decompose. But it also means that no concept is primitive and basic. Every concept is built up of related concepts. Every concept has meaning only within a specific context of other concepts. And so the very attempt to arrive at primitive ideas, or axioms, from which other ideas can be derived, is doomed to failure.

NOT MANY THINGS Anaanaartham:

Nagarjuna was very fond at applying recursive logic. Recursion is the name given to using the output of an operation as input to the same operation. Now we saw above that nothing is simple, because everything is made of a multiplicity of factors. So, for example, we could say that an apparent whole W is in fact a set of parts {a,b,c,d....}. But we can now substitute any one of those parts for W, with the result that we realize that none of the apparent parts of the whole is itself a simple thing. Indeed, if we continue the process of analysis to its logical conclusion, the result is that there are no things at all, even to serve as parts of larger wholes. But if there are no parts at all, then it is really NOT true after all to say of a whole that it is in fact made of many parts(nanaartha). (source)



3. Immediate welcome:

Somebody, something, somehow welcomes you. It is a silent welcome (a thundering, deafening silence), but you definitely feel it in your marrow -- your liberation is being silently celebrated throughout the reality. This is probably why we read that on many accounts people, upon attaining liberation, have exclaimed: "The patriarchs and the Buddhas have not deceived me!" Or, that people say how fish swim in the trees, birds chirp and flutter in the depths of the ocean, and mountains straddle the river.

4. No need to talk about it:

This feeling is extremely pronounced in the first several weeks following the Enlightenment. Talking, even thinking about it is felt to be as superfluous as asking a fellow passenger on a train: "Are you, too, traveling in this train?" It's meaningless. Since everybody else is also Enlightened, what's there to talk about? You just live.

5. The profound body of spiritual literature falls short of capturing it:

You may start developing a mild urge, after several days or so, to go and re-examine and compare your experience with the accounts recorded in the holy scriptures. Prepare yourself for a very disappointing experience. All the exalted words will look very pale and lifeless when put side by side with what you've been through and one of the reasons such historical notable Zen adepts as Te Shan burned all their Zen books and commentaries in the immediate moments following Attainment.

Actually, the entire body of the world literature that was accumulated in thousands of years of written history looks like no more than twenty six letters of the alphabet when compared to the richness of the experience of Enlightenment. Learning and mastering the entire human thought, as it is recorded in the world, would amount to no more than grasping the alphabet. From there on, you'd have to learn to form the words, sentences, paragraphs, chapters, books. Immeasurably much more work lies ahead.

No wonder then that accomplished Zen masters speak about the stink of Enlightenment (or, the sickness of it). It can get unbearably grand.

6. The realization of the sublime cosmic joke:

Earlier we said that the all-pervading feeling of nothingness means that there is nothing to transmit, nothing to get, nothing to lose, nothing to achieve, nothing to learn, etc. Now is the time to discuss how the Enlightened being realizes that the Enlightenment is just a first step, and that the learning has just begun. This is the paradox, or the 'cosmic joke', but only in the linguistic sense. In actuality, it is something of a Koan:

Another way to look at it is to recognize that what is characteristic for an Enlightened being is to be in the state of the perennial beginner. This, of course, has to do with the freshness of the general attitude, and with the mind's emptiness (or the lack of experience thereof) which is making the process possible. But, the beginner can exist only in relation to the accomplished master. So, one realizes that at all times, one is the beginner and the accomplished master simultaneously. Since there is no way to express it otherwise, we refer to it as a cosmic joke.

7. All the questions have been answered and exhausted:

Typically, a person who experiences the wondrous Enlightenment is a person who's been on a long, intense journey, searching for something. Usually, such person has some pressing questions, something approaching the matters of life and death in its seriousness and importance. In addition, it is very likely that such person has been through some inordinately strong, long phase of suffering. This may not always be the case, but it's more likely than not. What the Enlightenment does to such person is it dissolves all those things. Everything's gone up in a puff of smoke! The search is once and for all over (but don't fool yourself -- the new one begins!) I will make a very bold statement here and say that if, after attaining what seems to be an Enlightenment, you still have some of the old questions pressing as hard as before, you may have to work some more on your breakthrough.

Not to be mistaken, though, we should stress that usually the first breakthrough is somewhat shallow (Kensho) and will not manage to uproot all the seeds of the habitual consciousness (Satori)). So, the pressing questions will most definitely return (although they've been so gracefully dissolved), but never with the same Fear of Death intensity. This time around, the suffering such thoughts may give rise to will be similar to the suffering we feel upon waking from an unpleasant dream: there are all the symptoms of suffering and uneasiness, but at the same time we don't really care, knowing that it's only a dream. As the great guitarist John McLaughlin once said: "Everything's there but nothing is traumatic."


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Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695408 - 11/29/07 05:51 PM (14 years, 5 days ago)

As for how to tell who is an enlightened person, they would likely exhibit some of these qualities or describe their experience like this.



1. The experience of nothingness:


Gee you lost me so quick. :lol: How would someone "exhibit the quality of the experience of nothingness"?

And especially if they had 4. No need to talk about it:


7. All the questions have been answered and exhausted:

I feel like I'm there. I missed some of the rest so I guess I'm just "lightened", but it's a start.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #7695440 - 11/29/07 05:59 PM (14 years, 5 days ago)

I doth nickname thee 'Chricelander' (or is it 'Christlander'). :rofl:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695449 - 11/29/07 06:02 PM (14 years, 5 days ago)

I must have missed something. I see no litmus test, merely tons of blather. You will do well on MRP.


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OfflineOrbus
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #7695454 - 11/29/07 06:03 PM (14 years, 5 days ago)

Well thats the best I could do. I'm just trying to answer his question. Did you read the end of my sentence "or describe their experience like" They could describe an experience of nothingness, (not accurately) and just because they have no need to talk about it doesn't mean they couldn't if asked.

You're right there is no litmus test. Thats why its a trick. Enlightened people are supposed to look and act like everyday normal people. By the way that description isn't by me but it reflects my beliefs.


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------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


Edited by Orbus (11/29/07 06:07 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695462 - 11/29/07 06:06 PM (14 years, 5 days ago)

They could describe an experience of nothingness, (not accurately)

I can describe the experience of nothingness "not accurately". I guess I must be more enlightened then I thought.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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