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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Why did Shamanism fail?
    #2096591 - 11/12/03 11:52 AM (13 years, 26 days ago)

If Shamanism puts us in touch with the Overmind or our Ancestors or the Ground of Being, and can be used for healing and divining (finding food, seeing future enemy attacks) why have almost all shamanic socities failed miserably when it comes to basic survival against technological advancement?

(Please don't tell me it is holier to die or become extinct as a tribe!)


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2096695 - 11/12/03 12:29 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

Making up for lost time with all these posts, huh?


On topic: I have wondered the same thing.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2096751 - 11/12/03 12:45 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

If Shamanism puts us in touch with the Overmind or our Ancestors or the Ground of Being, and can be used for healing and divining (finding food, seeing future enemy attacks) why have almost all shamanic socities failed miserably when it comes to basic survival against technological advancement?
 



IMHO for many of the same reasons cancer triumphs over healthy tissue.
WR:rasta: 


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To old for this place


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2096761 - 11/12/03 12:49 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

the Indians were doing just fine until the Europeans wiped them out.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2096788 - 11/12/03 12:58 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

Maybe there is a reason it's called shamanism.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2096808 - 11/12/03 01:02 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

the Indians were doing just fine
Many starving in the winter, tribes attacking other tribes, high infant mortality - these things are "doing just fine"?

until the Europeans wiped them out.
Showing that their Medicine Men were unable to protect them; so perhaps their Ancestors had no power.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2096922 - 11/12/03 01:38 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

the Indians were doing just fine until the Europeans wiped them out.

at the time, they were already becoming more integrated and advanced, and in a great many places were no longer the hunter-gatherer-one-with-nature utopia that pop-education on the subject has led many of us to believe.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2096938 - 11/12/03 01:43 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

> Showing that their Medicine Men were unable to protect them

The indians were given blankets that carried the smallpox virus, something which had never been seen in Americas before. Just like modern day doctors have trouble when a new disease appears, I would expect the medicine men to fail as well. Weak argument.

The medicine men did just fine with the normal day-to-day type of illnesses that they had at the time. Modern medicine still goes out into the rain forests looking for new drugs that the shamans have been using for generations.

History is written by the victors. There is no way of knowing for sure how good or bad life was for the indians before we screwed them.

But since we are on the subject, lets look at what our modern technological marvels have given us... SARS, aids, mad cow disease, alzheimers, cancer, smog, global warming, etc...

I don't know about you, but I will take the starving in winter, tribal attacks, high infant mortality, etc over out modern day plagues any day of the week.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Anonymous

Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Seuss]
    #2097039 - 11/12/03 02:12 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

Oh well done!


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OfflineSoHei
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: ]
    #2097239 - 11/12/03 02:58 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

I would say it's cos the shamans were wrong and none of it worked


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: SoHei]
    #2097334 - 11/12/03 03:17 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

yea, what do you mean?


I consider the american society pretty advanced....but successful?

One in every two people get cancer at some time in their life in Georgia. Its similiar statistics in all states, the least cases being 1 in 4 people, I believe.

This is a very sick and uhealthy society, so tell me - how our OUR medicine men any better?


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #2097434 - 11/12/03 03:36 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

One in every two people get cancer at some time in their life in Georgia. Its similiar statistics in all states, the least cases being 1 in 4 people, I believe.

This is a very sick and uhealthy society, so tell me - how our OUR medicine men any better?




Our medicine are much better! But we also smoke, drink, live with 6 billion people, etc. 100 years ago you would probably die before the age of 50. We extended our lifes with more than 25years in 100years. I think that's amazing. Cancer is not always deadly, HIV isn't deadly at all for western people. We can transplant organs, we can create organs in the near future. We can heal nearly every disease. I can't imagine how you can think that our medicine(men) are not better than the medicine(men) of/or shamans.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Annom]
    #2097499 - 11/12/03 03:50 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

^^ Yes, it should also be considered that in earlier times many people died of other causes before succumbing to cancer or heart disease. Also, many more causes of death went undetermined or they may have just been attributed to old age.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2097552 - 11/12/03 04:02 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

... and if you believe the OT, people way back when used to live 600 to 900 years...


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Seuss]
    #2097568 - 11/12/03 04:04 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

That's a pretty big "IF." Maybe the world spun around a helluva lot faster in the OT as well.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Seuss]
    #2097648 - 11/12/03 04:20 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

The indians were given blankets that carried the smallpox virus, something which had never been seen in Americas before. Just like modern day doctors have trouble when a new disease appears, I would expect the medicine men to fail as well. Weak argument.
Weak argument by you. I did not mention smallpox. Apparently the Medicine Men who were exposed to high infant mortality for eons were unable to affect any cure. Hardly new.

History is written by the victors. There is no way of knowing for sure how good or bad life was
No mention of good or bad, just that shamaism was INEFFECTUAL for providing for the survival of the tribe.

...for the indians before we screwed them.
Not me, Kimosabe.

But since we are on the subject, lets look at what our modern technological marvels have given us... SARS, aids, mad cow disease, alzheimers, cancer, smog, global warming, etc...
Quite a tangential rant you go on here. The FACT of the matter is the the least shamanic societies (like the USA) are enormously successful in survival.

I don't know about you, but I will take the starving in winter, tribal attacks, high infant mortality, etc over out modern day plagues any day of the week.
Yeah, right. Please sell your car, TV, computer, microwave; turn off your hot water; etc. If you were willing (and not just spewing) you would already have "returned to the land".



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: ]
    #2097668 - 11/12/03 04:24 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

Oh well done!

Really? A dozen tangential and highly emotional issues were brought up that should have been in a new thread, while the core issue was danced over. Sorry to hear that you consider that good philosophical debate.

The fact remains that shamanic societies may have worked once upon a time, but fail miserably in today's world.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2097723 - 11/12/03 04:39 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

> Yeah, right. Please sell your car, TV, computer, microwave; turn off your hot water; etc. If you were willing (and not just spewing) you would already have "returned to the land".

I don't have a TV, phone, or even a postal mail address... *shrug*


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Seuss]
    #2097834 - 11/12/03 05:28 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

When faced with the civilized war machine how could anyone survive? Civilization uses a lot of tactics to enfold the primitive into it's machine. Shamanism is hardly a failure when considering the kind of fight primitive people have and still continue to put up against the civilized. A spiritual practice is not a shield against a non spiritual threat.

As far as the health of primitive people's is concerned, they were far healthier than the average member of civilization. They ate are more varied, natural diet from nutrient rich soils, and the developed thier healing traditions over long periods of time. Superbugs didn't pop out of nowhere like they do now. Civilization is the sole cause of the majority of our harshest illnesses (mental illness included.)

Of course primitive societies fail, for the mos part, in today's world. Today's world is setup in such a way that it's impossible to become primitive again, or to remain so if you were in the first place. Civilization allows no room for anything but itself. In the name of "economic progress" we are currently in the process of destroying yet more primitive cultures all over the world, namely the Amazon right now. We break treaties and start using land we previously admitted was never our own.

Civilization is not easy to stand up against, in fact it's damn near impossible but yet people still do it. The fact that there are people putting everything they have into staying primitive and not allowing civilization to tear thier culture to nothing speaks volumes. I think we owe it to those primitive cultures to stand in solidarity with them and do what we can to make thier struggle to survive easier.


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Offlinejoeshitragpicker
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2097908 - 11/12/03 05:59 PM (13 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
If Shamanism puts us in touch with the Overmind or our Ancestors or the Ground of Being, and can be used for healing and divining (finding food, seeing future enemy attacks) why have almost all shamanic socities failed miserably when it comes to basic survival against technological advancement?
 



Your question is misleading; but its tricky.. it took rereading it just rigth to understand that you have made basic assumtions about the dominator culture witch are simply wrong...
Shamans havent been drastically reduced through technological "advancement". To me, advancement would be living in harmony with  everything including technology. What we are talking about when we discuss why shamanistic cultures have been almost completely wiped out has nothing to do with advancement and everything to do with the phallic-worshipping dominators ripping at the heat of the goddesses of nature and spititual health and well-being.

my question to you is how you can possibly consider the wiping out and racial and cultural assimilation of our ancient ways as "advancement". :rolleyes:


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