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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #4921585 - 11/11/05 11:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think that the neo-shaman finds mainstream spiritual approaches just as valid in his/her toolbox as any other practice.

For example I like to use Rational Emotive therapy techniques on myself. I believe in Christ or Buddha consciousness and consider myself a Taoist by nature. All this combined with a psychedelic (tool) practice for healing and reprogramming my culturally conditioned bio-computer. And any other thing that works no matter where I find it.

Core shamanism?

I have found personally that the study of any skill that can be applied broadly has core principles. It's not in a technique. It's in a living principle that the power for healthy living is found. There is a core. IMO and to my satisfaction, through my explorations, so far, we are all one, all manifestation is from one source. That is a principle that I base my practice on.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/11/05 11:43 AM)


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: a_h_w]
    #4922030 - 11/11/05 02:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

a_h_w said:
I think you need to explain a little bit better your revulsion with finding the core of shamanism. from your post I understand you don't believe shamanism has a core. but if it doesn't have a core than it can't really be defined. we can only call it a bunch of weird practices that would have nothing in common.
if we think there's a reason to group all this ancient traditions and call it shamanism there must be something they all share, so naturally there must be a core.
neo-shamanism however is not really about finding the core of ancient shamanism. you start on shamanism from what you learn wherever you can. be it second hand or third hand eventually all knowledge roots to its source and that naturally has to be the ancient practices. but only partially of course, transmuted and changed by the path that brought that knowledge to you. when you learn about practices of amazonian tribes through terrence mckenna, whatever comes out of that into your own practice already incorporates a blend of ancient and new visions on what shamanism is.
of course a definition of shamanism is always reductive. in my post however I was just expressing what I feel to be the major differences between traditional shamanism and the emergent neo-shamanism. and I don't really blame neo-shamans for incorporating shamanism together with all their other beliefs and cosmic views on existence. after all that's only being human. only an isolated culture could survive without influence from external world views. in the new world everything changed the moment western civilization arrived. nowadays christian symbols and christian values are incorporated in many shamanic practices that survived transforming themselves. is this necessarily bad? not really. the world and humanity are finally becoming one. every knowledge will be available to everyone. everyone will be free to make their own choices and chose their own path. the individual can now access this huge bank of human knowledge and find in it what deeply resonates within him. more than ever he can be truly himself.




Something can have no core and be defined. Being defined does not imply that the enity that is defined actually exists. The entire definition itself is a vague and clumsy definition made by humans to lump things together that aren't even sure to actually belong together. For instance, what is it that places all things blue in the same category? That they're blue? No, because what is blue? Why wouldn't we choose to focus more on other nuances of these commonly blue things, and so on...

You wrote
"if we think there's a reason to group all this ancient traditions and call it shamanism there must be something they all share, so naturally there must be a core."

OK. Who are we? It's Westerners, right? What we call shamans didn't decide "hey, we're all shamans. Let's all be put in the same category because we all share something". It was Westerners, that thing they stand outside the shamanic traditions, that put labels on these practices and called them shamanism. According to your logic I can put a name on any random things and that would prove that they share something; unfortunately, my friend, it proves nothing more than that they share a name based on some arbitrary conceptualization.

I didn't say neo-shamanism is about finding the core of ancient shamanism. I said there is a tendency within neo-shamanism to do that, which I do not like. Michael Harners is a great protagonist of such a stance.


Amber_Glow: That's a good point. What is it that ties shamanismS together other than our word for some weird "religious" practicies? You can compare it to the development of the concept "African". There was no idea of an African person until white people started calling blacks from African Africans. Over time this term stuck and even those peoples that are called Africans started believing they're Africans. Black in America, for instance, started rallying under the name Africans because it was a useful category for them to unite under, but it was not ever historically true that Africans existed until that point. The same thing has happened with shamanism.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Lakefingers]
    #4922078 - 11/11/05 02:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well it's just a name and has no power or meaning other than what one gives it.

Doesn't really matter to me what it is called actually. But shamanism is the term that comes along and we can use the word to talk to others that share similar interests.

So if someone wants to call it shamanism or neo-shamanism or bullshit it doesn't really matter now does it. What does seem to matter is the experience one is having, doing whatever they are doing, while calling it whatever they call it.

I see a awful lot of arguments about what something or other is called. But to the one having experience that means something to them, they soon learn not to care too much about what someone labels something.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4922355 - 11/11/05 04:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:[/b
I see a awful lot of arguments about what something or other is called. But to the one having experience that means something to them, they soon learn not to care too much about what someone labels something.




Well put / Yea


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4924028 - 11/11/05 11:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

There is no neo-shamanism. The cornerstone of shamanism in cultures all around the world is that one has a set of tools and techniques that one uses to find ones own spiritual path to healing and happiness. There is a basic animist philosophy underlying it all. So, your definition of neo-shamanism is nothing more than shamanism. One does not need to bang a drum or shake a rattle to practice. These toys are mostly used for drama, though there are cultures that can use drums to create a trance state. When watching National Geographic one never sees the counseling that the shaman gives before or after the ceremony...one sees only the drama. Shamanism is merely a spiriitual path to healing the self and others based in self discovery.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4925399 - 11/12/05 12:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

word


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4925708 - 11/12/05 02:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

On the "Ayahuasca Forum" we have posted to there are several knowledgeable people, but there are also posers and snobs. Most of the people there who claim to have had a "traditional" introduction to shamanism most likely were corresponding with someone over the internet or dealing with posers with money likely involved. The derision towards core shamanism and "neo-shamanism" there is based in ignorance and self importance. One discovers the path through through experiencing unhappiness and personal reflection...not by banging a drum.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4925846 - 11/12/05 03:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

word

My path work has never been stronger or better. But to an outsider without an inner knowledge, my path, what I do, might seem like mere drug addiction or misuse. Each person follows a tortured path of their own evolution, with all it's corresponding ups and downs. I figured out for myself that everyone is on a spiritual path of one sort or another. My guess at ultimate path or truth is just as likely to be wrong as the next guy. So for each one of us we can choose and not be wrong. We can choose to lead ourselves or follow others or both or anything, and we can call it anything or nothing. If it's true, as I believe, we are all manifesting from the source, then we are all magicians and shamans, weather we know it consciously or not.

This constant battle over words and systems and who's for real and who isn't is besides the point. And once you see you can see that, and you begin to share your experience from your heart in a more humble and courageous way, and you realize that you are just a man, and no more important or unimportant than anything else in this world of wonders.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4925872 - 11/12/05 03:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"what I do, might seem like mere drug addiction or misuse"

Entheogens are mostly medically harmless and non-addictive. I can see no negative side to their use unless they are used to do harm in some way.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4925889 - 11/12/05 03:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Right, but tell that to the police and the priests. The point is that over at a place like the Ayahuasca forums I will have to defend my practice because it doesn't agree with someone elses strange belief system. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4925991 - 11/12/05 04:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"Right, but tell that to the police and the priests."

We could move to New Mexico.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4926005 - 11/12/05 04:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My shamanic brothers and I have been discussing buying a home together with our families.  :thumbup:

Interesting thing is when I left Seattle I was headed to New Mexico to try my luck when I got waylaid here. Now it's 17 years later.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4926047 - 11/12/05 04:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I would have thought they would have made the things legal in the northwest quicker than in the southwest. It is a cool situation to keep an eye on. It could be used a precedent in other states someday. The only way it would become legal in Kentucky is if you could get some of the preachers using it...maybe hand some out in church.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4926894 - 11/12/05 10:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"There is no neo-shamanism. "

while its true that neo-shamanism is still shamanism, that doesnt make the term meaningless. Neo-shamanism is just "new" shamanism... shamanism practiced by a new generation who are "winging it" and experimenting with brand new techniques as opposed to being instructed in the oral tradition of a tribe...

so i see it


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4928305 - 11/13/05 10:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I just tend to view neo-shamanism as just "shamanism". The term "neo" tend to confuse some people into believing it means "invalid".


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4928313 - 11/13/05 10:18 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I like the term Neo-shamanism. It defines my path better that just shamanism because not much of my practice is like traditional shamanism. But it doesn't really matter. I like Castanedas term Warriors path. Or Man of Knowledge is good to. You might even come up with a better one for yourself.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4928336 - 11/13/05 10:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well the view that you subscribe to is in keeping with a shamanic lifestyle...so why rename something that was already named. I think the Siberians chose an excellent word to describe their beliefs and practice. A shaman may practice what you call "traditional", but all people in primitive cultures are responsible for their own spiritual growth. Ideas like the accumulation of personal power and guidance through dreams and visions is common to all of shamanic cultures, and practiced by the members of the culture. The shaman just lends a guiding hand. So, your practice is not dissimilar to this way.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4928346 - 11/13/05 10:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, I take your point. I am comfortable with the term. I use it freely amoung my friends here at home. But we are all on the same page. Our paths have a different look but the principles and foundation are the same.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4928350 - 11/13/05 10:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This does not mean that I call myself a shaman. I do not want to be the "Grand Poobah" of anything.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4928370 - 11/13/05 10:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well why not? Is your definition of shaman synonymous with "grand Poobah"? Mine is not. I would call you a shaman or a practitioner of shamanism without putting you on a pedestal. You are still just a man like me. But we share an outlook and path defined by the term shamanism. We can use the term to communicate with each other.

Or, I in my personal work am my own shaman. I don't need to label myself that if others might not understand. Maybe that's what you mean.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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