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Re: to all my relations [Re: medicinebag]
    #2121703 -

Thunderheart and Dances with Wolves are two of my favorite movies. But being Native myself and living with the Lakota long before those movies were ever conceived of gives me the perspective from which I understand life.

Mitakuye Oyasin,

MM

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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: ]
    #2121736 -

Good to hear.

I myself am a member of a Nation, as well. The Choctaw Nation. While we haven't got as much press lately. I would like to say that the Choctaw Code Talkers were the first code talkers during WWI against the Germans. But, since the southwest is so pretty and everyone knows about the Navaho's they made WindTalkers. It should have been about the Original Code Talkers. But maybe one day we will get our place in the movies. I can't think of one Choctaw movie I have ever seen. So maybe one day.


For all you unbelievers that shamanism failed. Here is one of our legends from The People (Chatah) or Choctaw. This legend and others can be found at choctawnation.com for references to the exact details im leaving out just to shorten the story for this post.


We have a legend about a Giant light skinned man who whore Horns upon his head. A few of these giant, light skinned men, came into our villages and we accepted them for a time. Then after they left, the the Minko or leader went to the mountain with his Staff given to him by Father Sun and asked Father sun what to do. After being told, we gathered all of our things and hid in large caverns. For we were told that the strangers would come back and murder us all. And thats what happened to some of us that didn't make it to the caves in time. Our sister tribes the Creeks and Chickasaws were being tore down by disease and war with these Giants as well. We hid in those caves for a very long time, according to the legend for years. Then a boy came of age. That boy told the council he had a way to make the Giants leave who had ran us into the caves because we could not penetrate their "skin" with our arrows. This boy though spiritual contact, devised a way to take poisonous mushrooms and a local Datura and made a poison for blowdarts. We had never used a blowgun before this. At night, the warriors and young boys would sneak out of the caverns and creap up to the Giants tents. They would shoot them with the poison blowdarts at night while they were asleep. In the morning when the Giants woke they noticed some of them had died in their sleep. After a few weeks of them dying in their sleep the condemned the land as evil and headed back north from where they came. These Giants have to be those Vikings that were lost in the new world. As far west as Oklahoma Rhune stones have been dugup on river banks. The vikings were the only ones that could have left that kind of writing on a stone. The Choctaws at that time were in Southeast Mississipi. From that legend I feel we had already won the first ivasion. I don't know what happened the next time. I guess there were too many Giants to kill in their sleep. LOL> later.

Medicinebag

Edited by medicinebag (11/19/03 02:25 AM)

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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: medicinebag]
    #2121809 -

Here is one of our legends from The People (Chatah) or Choctaw. This legend and others can be found at choctawnation.com for references to the exact details im leaving out just to shorten the story for this post.

This story was written down long after the "fact" and is totally unverifiable.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: Swami]
    #2121830 -

What Prophecy are you refering to? the story is about making poison darts via shamansim to kill an enemy. Thats what the story is about. If you would have taken the time to read it instead of the time to mock me, you would have seen that.

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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: medicinebag]
    #2122376 -

medicinebag said:
If you would have taken the time to read it instead of the time to mock me, you would have seen that.


If you would take the time to read Swami's words and attempt to understand them it would really help you a lot. Here's what he stated, 'This story was written down long after the "fact" and is totally unverifiable.' That is not mocking, if you would have comprehended his words you would have seen that.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: Evolving]
    #2122974 -

That is exactly my point, evolving.

You only listened to what Swami had to say and did not read the legend youself throughly. There is no Prophecy in the story. The story is about shamansim and using that to defeat an enemy. Not a prophecy about whites. The story is oral. Everyone (my people) agrees on it. It was not written down until fairly recently. We did not have a written language. I think you are getting us confused with the Chereokee and Sequouyah. Later.

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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: medicinebag]
    #2123324 -

medicinebag said:
You only listened to what Swami had to say...


No, I READ what Swami had to say.

Quote:
and did not read the legend youself throughly.


Wrong again.

Quote:
There is no Prophecy in the story.


Did Swami claim there was prophecy in the story?. Again, this is what he stated, 'This story was written down long after the "fact" and is totally unverifiable.'

Quote:
The story is about shamansim and using that to defeat an enemy. Not a prophecy about whites.


I read it, I know. As Swami stated, 'This story was written down long after the "fact" and is totally unverifiable.'

Quote:
I think you are getting us confused with the Chereokee and Sequouyah.


How did you come to that unfounded (and wrong) conclusion?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Where Shamanism fails. [Re: jiva]
    #2124024 -

jiva said:
Perhaps you're taking it too literal?


exactly.


--------------------
i've always been mad like the most of us have

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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: Swami]
    #2124594 -

Swami said:
Here is one of our legends from The People (Chatah) or Choctaw. This legend and others can be found at choctawnation.com for references to the exact details im leaving out just to shorten the story for this post.

This story was written down long after the "fact" and is totally unverifiable.   


Incorrect.  If artifacts were found that verified the story it is verifiable.

medicinebag:  Read Swami's posts carefully before you respond.  He likes to incite people by playing with words.  He can't help himself.

:lol:

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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: ]
    #2124690 -

If i remember correctly, Black Elk himself had visions of immense victory of his people over the whites right before Wounded Knee.


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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: Grav]
    #2126340 -

In early October of 1890, Kicking Bear, a Minneconjou, visited Sitting Bull at Standing Rock. He told him of the visit he and his brother-in-law, Short Bull, had made to Nevada to visit Wovoka. They told him of the great number of other Indians who were there as well. They referred to Wovoka as the Christ and told of the Ghost Dance that they had learned and the way that the Christ had flown over them on their horseback ride back to the railroad tracks, teaching them Ghost Dance songs. And they told him of the phophecy that, next spring, when the grass was high, the earth would be covered with new soil, burying all the white men.The new soil would be covered with sweet grass, running water and trees; the great herds of buffalo and wild horses would return. All Indians who danced the Ghost Dance would be taken up into the air and suspended there while the new earth was being laid down. Then they would be replaced there, with the ghosts of their ancestors, on the new earth. Only Indians would live there then."

And everything he said came true. Those that partook in the Ghost dance and "died" reawoke in that promised land. Notice the wording, A NEW soil. will be laid down, sweet grass and all the animals would return. That is most definately a metaphor for a new land not this land. But a promised land. Right now those that "died" are living their lives in peace and harmony in that promised land. I hope to see them soon. Anybody else think so?

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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: Grav]
    #2126366 -

If i remember correctly, Black Elk himself had visions of immense victory of his people over the whites right before Wounded Knee.

verification?


--------------------
I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: Jellric]
    #2126380 -

All Indians who danced the Ghost Dance would be taken up into the air and suspended there while the new earth was being laid down. Then they would be replaced there, with the ghosts of their ancestors, on the new earth. Only Indians would live there then."


I hope they let us Half-Breeds get in too.
I wonder if I'll have to have my Roll number?

Edited by medicinebag (11/20/03 10:35 PM)

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Re: Where Shamanism fails. [Re: ]
    #2126433 -

Another great movie is 'The Last of the Mohicans'.

I am part Choctaw. My own view on the Ghost Dance was that it was a cultural adaptation for the diehards to keep hope alive. Those who couldn't imagine any other way of life clung to the false hope it gave. The tragedy demonstrates what happens when a culture is overwhelmed with change too rapidly to adapt. (Culture shock).

But some were able to adapt, which is why my hero of the time was Black Elk. He was a shaman totally immersed in Native American culture, but he saw the writing on the wall and became a Christian. Through his example he led many to transition into the new world while still maintaining their spiritual core. His spiritual attainment was revealed by his adherance to the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. Spirit over dogma and ritual. The Pathless path.


--------------------
I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Where Shamanism fails. [Re: Jellric]
    #2126460 -

Yeah, that last one was an attempt at lightening up things around here. So far it has been kinda "tip-toeish". But I see your point Jellric.

Exactly, since the Ghost Dance was a multi-tribe thing, its not about "who" gets in to this plane of existence is about ones attitude. You can'nt get their by forcing your way in, you must have the proper attitude when entering this realm.

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