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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7592166 - 11/03/07 09:18 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I know this, but if you claim cultural purity as a virtue then should you not be true to it? How can you claim others show disrespect when you yourself are demonstrating this self same disrespect? However, I enjoy the freedom to express myself in any way I please or call myself whatever I please. If I want to be The Grand Pubba Of Shamanic Trans-Dimensional Universes then I will embody that to it's fullest extent.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7592435 - 11/03/07 10:29 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

How am I demonstrating disrespect? The generalized use of the word shaman? Come on Hue, you know as well as I do that the word is used generally because it's a lot easier than listing off the title every single culture has for the role. The same essential pattern exists in every single one of the cultures that practices it, with a great deal of elaboration and this is why the word is useful. There's a difference between using a word for the sake of efficacy and ignorantly lumping diverse cultures together as one due to basic similarities. I realize there are major differences between the Tungus and the Kwakuitl or Hopi or Huichol... Obviously.

I'm not denying anyone the right to call themselves whatever they please, I'm just arguing that in this case it's annoying and false. It isn't a matter of cultural 'purity' either. You've put these words in my mouth. If you want to believe that you are a transgendered Samoan midget you are absolutely welcome to. I won't do a thing to hold you back. I might be inclined to point out that you are an American of average proportion, however. Especially if you claim to speak for a group you have no authentic ties to.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7592661 - 11/03/07 11:34 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Come on Hue, you know as well as I do that the word is used generally because it's a lot easier than listing off the title every single culture has for the role.




Yes I know what you say to be true, but MANY native cultures call that disrespect...particularly the Siberian one. Tengerism.org is a site created by the people of this culture, and they discuss this in the following link:
http://www.tengerism.org/origin_of_shaman.html
By the way this site http://www.tengerism.org/ is a very cool informational site.
Now I see your point about the use of the term being a good general term and I see no disrespect whatsoever, but if some guy wants to call  himself a shaman then I see no disrespect there either...which is MY point. Now, using that term to describe ones self might indicate a issue involving self importance...just as any title denotes self importance, but beyond that there is little wrong with it. It is really not worth losing sleep over...and if some idiot can get other people to believe him when he uses that title, then that was a lesson that those people needed to learn. I do believe, however, that shamanic ideas and techniques are relevant to the lives of people in our culture as these views have changed me enormously over the last few years. I did once try to pass myself off as a  transgendered Samoan midget, but being several inches over six foot I could find no one to validate my claim :frown:


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7592771 - 11/04/07 12:07 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Point taken. I'm certainly not losing any sleep over it, I'm just a bit of a curmudgeon. :smirk:


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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7593333 - 11/04/07 02:55 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

lol


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7593915 - 11/04/07 11:42 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shaman
1: a priest or priestess who uses magic for the purpose of curing the sick, divining the hidden, and controlling events
2: one who resembles a shaman




The root of this term means "monk" or "priest/priestess," not "culturally recognized as a priest/priestess."  I'm not sure where your strict limitations on the right to use this term originate, but it is not from the actual definition.  :shrug:

Is not someone who practices shamanism accurately described as "a shaman"?  Certainly you can question whether the practices an individual claims to be involved in are factually shamanistic, but it does not seem reasonable to claim that someone cannot become a shaman without being embedded in a certain culture.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7593928 - 11/04/07 11:47 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

If your skin ain't the right color and you wasn't born in the right place then you can't be in the club. That's how it usually works.

It might just be helpful to mankind if we could drop this non-sense and share freely what we know.

Really, should any person who knows they are going to die actually give a shit about all this?


Edited by Icelander (11/04/07 11:50 AM)


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Offlinebbaeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7593985 - 11/04/07 12:06 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

it's reasonable if you undertand what shamanism actually is rather than just looking at a dictionary. if a person claims to be shaman within a context where shamanism isnt recognized or is even scoffed at, that persons shamanism becomes almost useless, because there is no place for it. some people in our culture are begining to recognize shamanic roles, but unfortunately much of this recognition is a superficial one. A person can be a shaman without being embedded in a certain context, for example, if the shaman travels outside of his own culture and into another, but the shaman has got to have roots stemming from a culture that sanctions that. as to the deffinition you've quoted, in numerous cultures, in fact most, the shaman and the priest play completely different roles undertaken by different poeple. In many cases the shaman is not the priest. and the second deffinition, one who resembles a shaman? this could mean anything, like if someone paints their face and shakes a rattle, this could be resembling a shaman, but it would be absurd to say that that person is a shaman. The point i'm making is that one cannot decide "im a shaman" and in doing so becomes a shaman. A person can certainly take part in shaman-like activity, but to the assert that that is true shamanism is a mistake.


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Offlinebbaeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7593990 - 11/04/07 12:07 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

the funny thing about humans is that we have to "do" things. we cant just be like the birds


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7594004 - 11/04/07 12:11 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The point i'm making is that one cannot decide "im a shaman" and in doing so becomes a shaman. A person can certainly take part in shaman-like activity, but to the assert that that is true shamanism is a mistake.




That is your opinion, not a statement of fact. If shamanism is about journeying between worlds, what does culture have to do with it? What does the recognition and approval of others have to do with it? These limitation are elitist nonsense, IMO.


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Offlinebbaeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7594026 - 11/04/07 12:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

shamanism is most certainly not just about journeying between worlds, you would be just a traveller then.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7594032 - 11/04/07 12:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

What else then?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7594040 - 11/04/07 12:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Shaman
1: a priest or priestess who uses magic for the purpose of curing the sick, divining the hidden, and controlling events
2: one who resembles a shaman




The root of this term means "monk" or "priest/priestess," not "culturally recognized as a priest/priestess."  I'm not sure where your strict limitations on the right to use this term originate, but it is not from the actual definition.  :shrug:

Is not someone who practices shamanism accurately described as "a shaman"?  Certainly you can question whether the practices an individual claims to be involved in are factually shamanistic, but it does not seem reasonable to claim that someone cannot become a shaman without being embedded in a certain culture.




Your definition is not correct. It is a popularized, generalized definition of the term, a different use of the word entirely. My definition and views on the matter come from, and are broadly accepted in, the field of anthropology. Yeah, there can be a lot to criticize about anthropology. I won't pretend it's flawless, but this is where I'm coming from. A priest is a different kind of thing entirely. There may be some parallels and crossovers, but priest and shaman are essentially different social roles.


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Offlinebbaeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7594050 - 11/04/07 12:24 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

is saying that steak is not a vegetable elitist? of course not, because steak and vegetables are specific things...which are different


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Offlinebbaeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7594060 - 11/04/07 12:27 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

icelander, if you want to know what shamanism is beyond travelling between worlds you can read a book ar an essay or a few. i've already given the name of one of the top books on the subject, you can read that. and you dont even have to read the whole thing to get the idea!


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7594064 - 11/04/07 12:28 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
What else then?




Navigating the spirit land, communicating with spirits and brinking back sought after knowledge to help the community. Diagnosing and curing illness, knowing everything about one's culture's mythology and medicines... etc. A shaman isn't just someone who hangs out in the spirit world for shits and giggles, or for thier personal growth, or to experience an alternative view of reality. There is a specific purpose for the activity and that is the health of the community. This is why, to truly be a shaman, one must be embedded in a cultural context that recognizes it.


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Offlinebbaeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7594068 - 11/04/07 12:30 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

that is basically it. now we can all nevermind.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7594197 - 11/04/07 01:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Your definition is not correct. It is a popularized, generalized definition of the term, a different use of the word entirely. My definition and views on the matter come from, and are broadly accepted in, the field of anthropology. Yeah, there can be a lot to criticize about anthropology. I won't pretend it's flawless, but this is where I'm coming from. A priest is a different kind of thing entirely. There may be some parallels and crossovers, but priest and shaman are essentially different social roles.




Anthropology, if I am not mistaken, studies the way things have been done in human cultures. This does not mean that what is studied can never be done differently, or that the definitions of the past are the only valid ones. "My" definition comes from the dictionary, and reflects the etymology of the term. As anthropology views everything through the lens of cultural embeddedness, it is to be expected that this field would define a Shaman as being culturally-determined.

Again, I say that these imposed limitations are elitist and inaccurate. Whether it is possible to be a Shaman or not, the definition is determined by the actions and abilities, not by the cultural acknowledgement and application of said actions and abilities.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7594202 - 11/04/07 01:23 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bbaeker said:
is saying that steak is not a vegetable elitist? of course not, because steak and vegetables are specific things...which are different




A shaman is not a thing, it is an individual with a particular set of abilities.  As such, it is not determined by molecular structure, as is the difference between animal and vegetable matter.  If an individual displays the particular set of abilities, then they are a Shaman whether you think they can be or not.  :shrug:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7594211 - 11/04/07 01:26 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I am a shaman, magician
The sun is purple
3D dimensions
I am for mental extensions.


--------------------


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