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InvisibleIcelander
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Neo-shamanism
    #4917138 - 11/10/05 11:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

OK, so there, this thing called Neo-Shamanism. They have no history or tradition. They have little or no experience. Yet they seem to be having some success in the traditional goals of shamanism, such as emotional or physical healing. Any one has the potential to become one.

People involved in traditional Shamanism sometimes don't think much of Neo-Shamanism. They think you really can't get the job done in non-traditional ways.

I myself think it's a very good way to get things done. You are doing it for yourself and under your own steam. I think since no one really has a clue what this life is for. Following your own path is quite valid. What do you think?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4917267 - 11/10/05 11:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This is very interesting. What is the difference between Neo-Shamanism and traditional Shamanism?

I once heard Jim Morrison state that the shaman was one who was pursuing his own fantasies. I like that.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4917398 - 11/10/05 12:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

haha...

off topic, but I must mention that I changed my nick on irc an hour ago..
fun reading this now..

just had a funny chat (the confusion of me calling me no-body) ..

ahah! gotta love it! :smile:

"No-one knows!"
-Unknown :P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: dorkus]
    #4917454 - 11/10/05 12:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This is a pretty good definition IMO.


Quote:

NeoShamanism is a blending of spiritual and shamanic psychologies, and as such, these principles form its foundation:

We are energetic beings who have free will and choice with respect to our actions.
Our actions and thoughts influence how we lead our lives.

We are born into life as fully loving beings.
We experience some form of primal abandonment early in life and begin doubting our worthiness to be loved.
We fear future abandonment and expend much effort protecting ourselves.
These efforts are largely futile.
We become trapped in a cycle of behaviors that prevents us from being in touch with our true Selves.
The cycle can be broken through awareness then reconnection with our divinity.

Divine reconnection can be initiated either externally, internally, or both. Successful Divine reconnection leads to harmony and fulfillment, heaven on Earth.

NeoShamanism recognizes the understanding that there is no "one" way of doing anything. It is a cliche that there are many paths to enlightenment (reconnecting with our divinity), and it is nonetheless true. It is in this spirit that Neoshamanism blends spiritual and shamanic psychologies together to offer a unique and expanded path of spiritual evolution that while unique is not presented as "the only path."

The benefits of NeoShamanism to the practitioner are many. (By the way, a "practitioner" is anyone who adapts the principles and practices to everyday life-one does not have to formally become a shaman although the avenue is open to anybody!)

Achieving balance and harmony in everyday living
The virtual disappearance of conflict and stress
Happiness
Fulfillment
Physical well-being
A sense of purpose and the means of accomplishing it

NeoShamanism has two goals. The first is to awaken awareness of who a person truly is: the loving Self that is the Divine that is in each one of us. The second goal is to remove the obstacles to reconnecting with that Divinity that is in each of us.

A fuller explanation of how to use NeoShamanism as a "way" or basis for healing is contained in my book, A Tao Of God.





--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBloodNOil
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4917523 - 11/10/05 01:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ice, can you recommend some reading on neo-shamanism?


--------------------
It's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: BloodNOil]
    #4917589 - 11/10/05 01:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BloodNOil said:
Ice, can you recommend some reading on neo-shamanism?




Unfortunately or fortunately, no I cannot. I was practicing before I ever knew the defination. Any authors I might recommend besides Castaneda and McKenna would make you wonder about me. My shamanic path being personal I took a crooked road getting to the place. But heres a name or three that might just get you thinking.

Quote:

Robert Anton Wilson.

Tim Leary

Stanislav Grof

Jan Fries

E.J. Gold




These guys are or were the real thing IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4918024 - 11/10/05 03:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

For me, the two paths (warrior and shaman) are the most desirable paths of my exiastence (as well). As I stem also more from the traditional way/perspective of shamism, naming the total and whole including of pure nature into existence (being a healer), I also did see 'modern shamans' talk about ufos and extraterrestrials. At first, I did find that quite weird, but now, I am beginning to realize, that once, you found that specific 'way', it does not matter so much, from where it stems from. They all lead to the same and use the same energies and won't 'cut out' or defend each others. Quite fascinating...
Who wrote that quote of yours ?  Are you the auther of 'The Tao of God' ? :laugh: :heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4918223 - 11/10/05 03:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Check out the lectures on shamanism. You should find them interesting.
http://futurehi.net/media.html
That quote is from "The Tao of God." :smile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4918325 - 11/10/05 04:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

WoW ! :rofl2: :hotidea: It looks so lovely on the first sight... thanks, for that link.. will be interesting for me for sure :smile: :thumbup:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4918902 - 11/10/05 07:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yes neo shamanism is a good path that most on a spiritual path are kind of following, weather they call it that or not...

to me, shamanism is

1. a process of actively gaining power (over our lives, our minds, our selves)
2. the pracitce of dimensional movement, aka. techniques of experiencing various levels or reality

in my daily life i practice neo shamanism mostly through my dreaming, and through practicing the "warriors way"... and mainly just recognizing power when i see it and hunting it down...

i think the seperation of practice from tradition is happening in all the main spiritual paths, not just shamanism...

for example, im also a neo-buddhist, seeking detachment from the ego and clear sight of the nature behing the ten thousand things, practicing meditation and seeking enlightenment, all without any real grounding in buddhist dogma or doctrine.

im also a neo-christian, in that i seek to experience and serve god, while having nothing to do with the bible and the church...

etc etc etc

peace


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineTheQueen
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4919111 - 11/10/05 07:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

In regards to knowing what kind of shaman is traditional and what kind is neo-traditional, we can agree that the artist is one who does the required actions of the traditional shaman, because they are expresser's of realities unseen, healing methods, awareness and viable travel towards the novel. Some parts of the traditional shaman are out of date, like the rituals and customs the communities partakes in to show respect to the shaman's many eyes, and how seriously they take their 'seer'. from what i can recall, the shaman is one who one has recovered from their paranoia of reality, thus they share themselves effortlessly and with precise intensity.

The shaman's initiation is started when he travels into the belly of hellish paranoia, greed, lust, fatigue, carelessness, groping, conditional happiness (and where it came from)......Can imagine undergoing that all those hidden feelings of negativity all in one night? You are literally eaten alive, ripped to pieces by hungry landscapes, that go crazier when you cry out in pain at the loneliest points.
The shamans task is to undergo their own abusiveness-- when their agony period is over, to recover from being paranoid about flesh and expressing love are of the up most importance, because if the shaman does not reverse their fears into love, the poison will win and destroy you over time. So to be swift in recovery is sort of the key to this; not hesitating to help your compassion emerge from it's turtle shell- breaking apathy with considerate thoughts of circular universality. Ha Ha Ha it seems hard enough to just survive a day of mediation, let alone knowing the inner workings of Natures Games.

What the shaman is good at is knowing the needs of their people and fulfilling it. they pick up transmissions from sources far off, or up close, and utilize the message in a form of communication- i think 100% of the time, that's what we consider art and artistic talent; this ability to clean your mental place up and invite guests, then propose a collaborative project to these extrastelletory guests- the deal is between your body, your spirit and your mind; and as with any deal, the contract is like a promise. the shaman will SEE what they deem necessary to their collaborative project, and in exchange the vision will be translated through the shaman to be perceived by other powers in the universe.
the Neo-Shaman is a threat to the status Quo, and will be condemned in communities that treat vision as useless hallucinations and nieve.

Nonetheless, thanks for reading this. A great book on this topic, is Terrence Mckenna in The Invisible Landscape. Its a bit steep for the beginner but chop full of more then i spoke about. if your just starting our with this sort of story, i suggest Carlos Castaneda's don Juan's Teachings and Siddhartha Herman Hesse. Really this all comes down to being intuitive, so i suggest Tool: Lateralus as a way to learn how to breath in darkness.


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InvisibleVirgilKane
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: TheQueen]
    #4919223 - 11/10/05 08:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Can imagine undergoing that all those hidden feelings of negativity all in one night? You are literally eaten alive, ripped to pieces by hungry landscapes, that go crazier when you cry out in pain at the loneliest points.




Yes.  Ayahuasca under a Shaman.

But I'm no shaman.  :wink:

Great points!


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4919918 - 11/10/05 11:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think that anyone who is taking psychedelics in the modern age and implementing what they learn from their experiences into their everyday life can be considered a shaman, regardless of age, belief, or method.

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
I once heard Jim Morrison state that the shaman was one who was pursuing his own fantasies. I like that.




:thumbup:


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4919937 - 11/10/05 11:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

^i agree, although traditionally the roll of a shaman was healer/mediator to the spirit world. people like timothy leary stand out as shaman in our culture.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4920314 - 11/11/05 01:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
I think that anyone who is taking psychedelics in the modern age and implementing what they learn from their experiences into their everyday life can be considered a shaman, regardless of age, belief, or method.

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
I once heard Jim Morrison state that the shaman was one who was pursuing his own fantasies. I like that.




:thumbup:




I agree. :tongue: I can just see the traditionalists jumping up and down in fury or dismay. Just maybe though it's because they have become invested in their beliefs and now want to see a return. As middle men they my not want to see their livelihood endangered. Livelihood as in prestige, not just $$.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4921025 - 11/11/05 05:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Check out the lectures on shamanism. You should find them interesting.
http://futurehi.net/media.html






Great link. Thank you.


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: dorkus]
    #4921093 - 11/11/05 07:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think what separates traditional shamanism and neo-shamanism is that in the former teachings passed directly from one person to another and closed themselves in the meticulously defined tradition of a line.

neo-shamans don't have a line to follow, nor do they learn through direct experience guided by an elder shaman. they collect information from every possible resource, they experiment a wide number and variety of techniques and progressively define a practice of their own.

castaneda's books are quite interesting because in my opinion they convey themselves this transformation that is currently occurring and state very clearly that this happens for the better. ancient shamanism opened the way, no neo-shaman can neglect the inheritance of that knowledge, but we are now moving beyond the obstacles that inhibited ancient shamanism to survive. we are re-working shamanism so as to make it valid and vital again. we are trying our best to save our spirits and the planet itself. we are on the side of life no doubt. ancient shamanism put too much effort in destroying and killing.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: a_h_w]
    #4921111 - 11/11/05 07:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

a_h_w said:
I think what separates traditional shamanism and neo-shamanism is that in the former teachings passed directly from one person to another and closed themselves in the meticulously defined tradition of a line.

neo-shamans don't have a line to follow, nor do they learn through direct experience guided by an elder shaman. they collect information from every possible resource, they experiment a wide number and variety of techniques and progressively define a practice of their own.

castaneda's books are quite interesting because in my opinion they convey themselves this transformation that is currently occurring and state very clearly that this happens for the better. ancient shamanism opened the way, no neo-shaman can neglect the inheritance of that knowledge, but we are now moving beyond the obstacles that inhibited ancient shamanism to survive. we are re-working shamanism so as to make it valid and vital again. we are trying our best to save our spirits and the planet itself. we are on the side of life no doubt. ancient shamanism put too much effort in destroying and killing.




Neo-shamanism has a revolting tendency to find the "core" of shamanism and make it a universal truth that can apply to all humans. This is not radical. This is typical. Westerners love making truths that are applicable in all cases. We wear these truths like jewelry.

In this way shamanism, through neo-shamanism, is relegated to an ornament the neo-shaman can wear without actually putting their entire collection of oranments into jeopardy.

Among all of the faults I have found with neo-shamanism and neo-shamans it is this belief that shamanism has a core that is most absurd and megalomaniacal.


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Lakefingers]
    #4921313 - 11/11/05 09:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think you need to explain a little bit better your revulsion with finding the core of shamanism. from your post I understand you don't believe shamanism has a core. but if it doesn't have a core than it can't really be defined. we can only call it a bunch of weird practices that would have nothing in common.
if we think there's a reason to group all this ancient traditions and call it shamanism there must be something they all share, so naturally there must be a core.
neo-shamanism however is not really about finding the core of ancient shamanism. you start on shamanism from what you learn wherever you can. be it second hand or third hand eventually all knowledge roots to its source and that naturally has to be the ancient practices. but only partially of course, transmuted and changed by the path that brought that knowledge to you. when you learn about practices of amazonian tribes through terrence mckenna, whatever comes out of that into your own practice already incorporates a blend of ancient and new visions on what shamanism is.
of course a definition of shamanism is always reductive. in my post however I was just expressing what I feel to be the major differences between traditional shamanism and the emergent neo-shamanism. and I don't really blame neo-shamans for incorporating shamanism together with all their other beliefs and cosmic views on existence. after all that's only being human. only an isolated culture could survive without influence from external world views. in the new world everything changed the moment western civilization arrived. nowadays christian symbols and christian values are incorporated in many shamanic practices that survived transforming themselves. is this necessarily bad? not really. the world and humanity are finally becoming one. every knowledge will be available to everyone. everyone will be free to make their own choices and chose their own path. the individual can now access this huge bank of human knowledge and find in it what deeply resonates within him. more than ever he can be truly himself.


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4921514 - 11/11/05 11:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Neo-shamanism just sounds like a very broad term people have come up with to try and label any assortment of outside the mainstream spiritual practices. In this way, it seems neo-shamanism truly has no definition, and people are just using it as a term to cling onto to try to label and validate what they are doing. I don't want to be insulting to anyone here, but how am I wrong?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #4921585 - 11/11/05 11:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think that the neo-shaman finds mainstream spiritual approaches just as valid in his/her toolbox as any other practice.

For example I like to use Rational Emotive therapy techniques on myself. I believe in Christ or Buddha consciousness and consider myself a Taoist by nature. All this combined with a psychedelic (tool) practice for healing and reprogramming my culturally conditioned bio-computer. And any other thing that works no matter where I find it.

Core shamanism?

I have found personally that the study of any skill that can be applied broadly has core principles. It's not in a technique. It's in a living principle that the power for healthy living is found. There is a core. IMO and to my satisfaction, through my explorations, so far, we are all one, all manifestation is from one source. That is a principle that I base my practice on.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/11/05 11:43 AM)


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: a_h_w]
    #4922030 - 11/11/05 02:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

a_h_w said:
I think you need to explain a little bit better your revulsion with finding the core of shamanism. from your post I understand you don't believe shamanism has a core. but if it doesn't have a core than it can't really be defined. we can only call it a bunch of weird practices that would have nothing in common.
if we think there's a reason to group all this ancient traditions and call it shamanism there must be something they all share, so naturally there must be a core.
neo-shamanism however is not really about finding the core of ancient shamanism. you start on shamanism from what you learn wherever you can. be it second hand or third hand eventually all knowledge roots to its source and that naturally has to be the ancient practices. but only partially of course, transmuted and changed by the path that brought that knowledge to you. when you learn about practices of amazonian tribes through terrence mckenna, whatever comes out of that into your own practice already incorporates a blend of ancient and new visions on what shamanism is.
of course a definition of shamanism is always reductive. in my post however I was just expressing what I feel to be the major differences between traditional shamanism and the emergent neo-shamanism. and I don't really blame neo-shamans for incorporating shamanism together with all their other beliefs and cosmic views on existence. after all that's only being human. only an isolated culture could survive without influence from external world views. in the new world everything changed the moment western civilization arrived. nowadays christian symbols and christian values are incorporated in many shamanic practices that survived transforming themselves. is this necessarily bad? not really. the world and humanity are finally becoming one. every knowledge will be available to everyone. everyone will be free to make their own choices and chose their own path. the individual can now access this huge bank of human knowledge and find in it what deeply resonates within him. more than ever he can be truly himself.




Something can have no core and be defined. Being defined does not imply that the enity that is defined actually exists. The entire definition itself is a vague and clumsy definition made by humans to lump things together that aren't even sure to actually belong together. For instance, what is it that places all things blue in the same category? That they're blue? No, because what is blue? Why wouldn't we choose to focus more on other nuances of these commonly blue things, and so on...

You wrote
"if we think there's a reason to group all this ancient traditions and call it shamanism there must be something they all share, so naturally there must be a core."

OK. Who are we? It's Westerners, right? What we call shamans didn't decide "hey, we're all shamans. Let's all be put in the same category because we all share something". It was Westerners, that thing they stand outside the shamanic traditions, that put labels on these practices and called them shamanism. According to your logic I can put a name on any random things and that would prove that they share something; unfortunately, my friend, it proves nothing more than that they share a name based on some arbitrary conceptualization.

I didn't say neo-shamanism is about finding the core of ancient shamanism. I said there is a tendency within neo-shamanism to do that, which I do not like. Michael Harners is a great protagonist of such a stance.


Amber_Glow: That's a good point. What is it that ties shamanismS together other than our word for some weird "religious" practicies? You can compare it to the development of the concept "African". There was no idea of an African person until white people started calling blacks from African Africans. Over time this term stuck and even those peoples that are called Africans started believing they're Africans. Black in America, for instance, started rallying under the name Africans because it was a useful category for them to unite under, but it was not ever historically true that Africans existed until that point. The same thing has happened with shamanism.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Lakefingers]
    #4922078 - 11/11/05 02:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well it's just a name and has no power or meaning other than what one gives it.

Doesn't really matter to me what it is called actually. But shamanism is the term that comes along and we can use the word to talk to others that share similar interests.

So if someone wants to call it shamanism or neo-shamanism or bullshit it doesn't really matter now does it. What does seem to matter is the experience one is having, doing whatever they are doing, while calling it whatever they call it.

I see a awful lot of arguments about what something or other is called. But to the one having experience that means something to them, they soon learn not to care too much about what someone labels something.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4922355 - 11/11/05 04:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:[/b
I see a awful lot of arguments about what something or other is called. But to the one having experience that means something to them, they soon learn not to care too much about what someone labels something.




Well put / Yea


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4924028 - 11/11/05 11:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

There is no neo-shamanism. The cornerstone of shamanism in cultures all around the world is that one has a set of tools and techniques that one uses to find ones own spiritual path to healing and happiness. There is a basic animist philosophy underlying it all. So, your definition of neo-shamanism is nothing more than shamanism. One does not need to bang a drum or shake a rattle to practice. These toys are mostly used for drama, though there are cultures that can use drums to create a trance state. When watching National Geographic one never sees the counseling that the shaman gives before or after the ceremony...one sees only the drama. Shamanism is merely a spiriitual path to healing the self and others based in self discovery.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4925399 - 11/12/05 12:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

word


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4925708 - 11/12/05 02:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

On the "Ayahuasca Forum" we have posted to there are several knowledgeable people, but there are also posers and snobs. Most of the people there who claim to have had a "traditional" introduction to shamanism most likely were corresponding with someone over the internet or dealing with posers with money likely involved. The derision towards core shamanism and "neo-shamanism" there is based in ignorance and self importance. One discovers the path through through experiencing unhappiness and personal reflection...not by banging a drum.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4925846 - 11/12/05 03:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

word

My path work has never been stronger or better. But to an outsider without an inner knowledge, my path, what I do, might seem like mere drug addiction or misuse. Each person follows a tortured path of their own evolution, with all it's corresponding ups and downs. I figured out for myself that everyone is on a spiritual path of one sort or another. My guess at ultimate path or truth is just as likely to be wrong as the next guy. So for each one of us we can choose and not be wrong. We can choose to lead ourselves or follow others or both or anything, and we can call it anything or nothing. If it's true, as I believe, we are all manifesting from the source, then we are all magicians and shamans, weather we know it consciously or not.

This constant battle over words and systems and who's for real and who isn't is besides the point. And once you see you can see that, and you begin to share your experience from your heart in a more humble and courageous way, and you realize that you are just a man, and no more important or unimportant than anything else in this world of wonders.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4925872 - 11/12/05 03:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"what I do, might seem like mere drug addiction or misuse"

Entheogens are mostly medically harmless and non-addictive. I can see no negative side to their use unless they are used to do harm in some way.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4925889 - 11/12/05 03:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Right, but tell that to the police and the priests. The point is that over at a place like the Ayahuasca forums I will have to defend my practice because it doesn't agree with someone elses strange belief system. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4925991 - 11/12/05 04:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"Right, but tell that to the police and the priests."

We could move to New Mexico.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4926005 - 11/12/05 04:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My shamanic brothers and I have been discussing buying a home together with our families.  :thumbup:

Interesting thing is when I left Seattle I was headed to New Mexico to try my luck when I got waylaid here. Now it's 17 years later.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4926047 - 11/12/05 04:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I would have thought they would have made the things legal in the northwest quicker than in the southwest. It is a cool situation to keep an eye on. It could be used a precedent in other states someday. The only way it would become legal in Kentucky is if you could get some of the preachers using it...maybe hand some out in church.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4926894 - 11/12/05 10:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"There is no neo-shamanism. "

while its true that neo-shamanism is still shamanism, that doesnt make the term meaningless. Neo-shamanism is just "new" shamanism... shamanism practiced by a new generation who are "winging it" and experimenting with brand new techniques as opposed to being instructed in the oral tradition of a tribe...

so i see it


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4928305 - 11/13/05 10:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I just tend to view neo-shamanism as just "shamanism". The term "neo" tend to confuse some people into believing it means "invalid".


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4928313 - 11/13/05 10:18 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I like the term Neo-shamanism. It defines my path better that just shamanism because not much of my practice is like traditional shamanism. But it doesn't really matter. I like Castanedas term Warriors path. Or Man of Knowledge is good to. You might even come up with a better one for yourself.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4928336 - 11/13/05 10:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well the view that you subscribe to is in keeping with a shamanic lifestyle...so why rename something that was already named. I think the Siberians chose an excellent word to describe their beliefs and practice. A shaman may practice what you call "traditional", but all people in primitive cultures are responsible for their own spiritual growth. Ideas like the accumulation of personal power and guidance through dreams and visions is common to all of shamanic cultures, and practiced by the members of the culture. The shaman just lends a guiding hand. So, your practice is not dissimilar to this way.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4928346 - 11/13/05 10:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, I take your point. I am comfortable with the term. I use it freely amoung my friends here at home. But we are all on the same page. Our paths have a different look but the principles and foundation are the same.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4928350 - 11/13/05 10:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This does not mean that I call myself a shaman. I do not want to be the "Grand Poobah" of anything.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4928370 - 11/13/05 10:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well why not? Is your definition of shaman synonymous with "grand Poobah"? Mine is not. I would call you a shaman or a practitioner of shamanism without putting you on a pedestal. You are still just a man like me. But we share an outlook and path defined by the term shamanism. We can use the term to communicate with each other.

Or, I in my personal work am my own shaman. I don't need to label myself that if others might not understand. Maybe that's what you mean.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4928380 - 11/13/05 11:03 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No...but other people think so. I would rather just call myself Grand Poobah....maybe I will. I have a title now!


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4928382 - 11/13/05 11:04 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"The Grand Poobah of Time, Space, and Dimension"...I like it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4928399 - 11/13/05 11:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Your Supreme Royalnessness! :bowdown: We who are about to die salute you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4928404 - 11/13/05 11:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

We are all about to die...so I must be important.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4928449 - 11/13/05 11:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

In a way, each and every person is a shaman- because each one of us is given the strength to use the imagination mussel. No matter the task, we can be creative with our doings. This is the fundamental power of growth, as was already said, one's personal experience in self discovery.
The imitators are soon found out by their lack of experience on 3 plains- Upper Middle Higher. You can't know dark without light, pleasure without pain, nor courage without regret. These extremes teach us how to see the bad in the good, and good in the unfortunate. Again, i say art is a sure sign of someone who is on the path of self discovery. Creativity pushes us to learn that our external environment is part of who they are- what they are- and learning how the physicle is connected to the spiritual, and how to maintain communication between the two. The ability to activate the inner verse, leads to the ability to activate the outer; making good things happen, i think, no matter what medium our attention manipulates- simply because it shows the rest of us the possibility of doing the same in our own way.



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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: TheQueen]
    #4928454 - 11/13/05 11:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

imagination mussel


  New shamanic term alert. :smile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4929213 - 11/13/05 05:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i think a shaman is basicly like a pioneer of the mind.
a person who has the guts to go boldly where no1 else dares to
go and comes back with interesting exotic gifts to inspire the rest
of us.

the main difference between the shaman and the neo shaman imo is
the fact that nobody listens to us.

the traditional shaman had the respect and admiration of the community, and they have well developed traditions etc.
but they were not anywhere near in as good a position to
gain understanding of things as we are with all these technological
resources.


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #4930036 - 11/13/05 10:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I would think that the goal would be to do more than "inspire". How about healing the self, the community, and the planet?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #4930429 - 11/13/05 11:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Using your influence to save the planet is what it is all about. One person alone has little real influence, but the combined efforts of 5000 to 10,000 acid shamen should eventually do the trick. Always try to put something of yourself that is substantial into your works and relationships, and pass that love on to your children so that it grows in a viral fashion.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4930513 - 11/14/05 12:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

IF the planet really needs saving. That is some of the best advice I've heard.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4930596 - 11/14/05 12:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

thats right- i like to think of art as the virus of illumination infecting the system.... of the rock boned body, status quo capitalistic witless sperm germs, fucking like rabbits to feed and secure the future of ignorance. There are many acid shamans coming into play by the way, i think i would be considered one; we see the effects of that new breed of person arising in the most casual circumstances. take Mario Cart's adventure, on super NES. thats sort of how an artfull being travels from pillar to pillar- following a specific path, with many obstacles along the way, gathering coins of info for more points at the finish line- you don't exactly have to be first to win, but the 1 place winner has sure fine experience on that level and is regarded as a master of the realm hahaha



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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4930611 - 11/14/05 12:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I think since no one really has a clue what this life is for. Following your own path is quite valid. What do you think?




I agree. I think your own path is the only way to go. Someone elses path is there own. Take pointers from someone else, but live in the reality given to you. Since we all veiw reality differently, soneone else path will lead somewhere different. Just mt POV from behind these two eyes.


Edited by shymanta (12/06/05 05:15 PM)


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4930750 - 11/14/05 12:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The planet always needs saving...and it always has.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4930776 - 11/14/05 01:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What makes you say that? Humans feel that they need saving, but the earth has always survived the loss of some life forms. What are we saving her from and what are we saving her for?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4930795 - 11/14/05 01:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"the earth has always survived the loss of some life forms"

Yeah, but I mean that we should make it where it doesn't kick us off.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4930813 - 11/14/05 01:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Wouldn't it really be ourselves kicking ourselves off.  Ourselves need saving from ourselves. :grin:


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Cherk]
    #4930820 - 11/14/05 01:11 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Correct, but I am not in my right mind. So, change everything I said to agree with you and you got it.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4930823 - 11/14/05 01:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The left mind needs company too! :wink:


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4930824 - 11/14/05 01:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

There is no way to guarantee that. And humans haven't always been on earth as far as we know. You said earth always needs saving.

So maybe Hue we need to save ourselves. The earth my not have anything to worry about.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4930837 - 11/14/05 01:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

O.K. Then that is what I said...or meant to say.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4930894 - 11/14/05 01:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yes! I love this earth. That is my predilection also.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4931792 - 11/14/05 11:59 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I love earth and especially the imense variety of life !
It sucks to see humans destroy this and it is poor for life on earth to perhaps start again. It wil, but much time is lost and it looked real great before man came. That makes me sad, as guilt lies only in humans for this. They did know the preachings all the time and ignored it constantly. I am not sad for humans, but for the variety of beautiful life, which could be forced to redevelop in millions of years (say thrown back millions of years).


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4931800 - 11/14/05 12:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

this is not a requirement to be a shaman, nor is it exclusivly the shamans domain.
this is responsibility that every single individual human being has
and the only thing that it requires is self expression.


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-Know ye not that ye are gods?-
My homepage


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #4931946 - 11/14/05 12:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Some humans search the healer, some humans need the warriors smite.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4932078 - 11/14/05 01:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

what i mean is that the shaman ends up changing the world for the better, but as a consequence of who and what he is.
it doesent matter how hard we try, if we are true to ourselves
and expressing ourselves as we truely are then the full potential of
effecting the rest of the world will express itself aswell.

in the case of a shaman it means his visions end up leading to cures, spychotherapy, information on prey movements etc.
even is the shaman only deals with individuals 1 on 1, the results will tricle down to the rest of society just as it would if he had
attempted to adress the rest of society as a group.


--------------------
-Know ye not that ye are gods?-
My homepage


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #4932500 - 11/14/05 03:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Spreading light and helping people is one thing making money off of them is another.

Being a healer now and in our social situations with todays standards can be tuff. Every one thinks you need credentials. People who heal, people who speak the truths, people who use herbs, people who know the plants and ssacrements know because they know.

People who study the traditional ways look down apon it because they fear a loss.


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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #4933319 - 11/14/05 06:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

total agreement


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineHerbus
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4933345 - 11/14/05 07:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Unfortunately, there are also 'neo-shamans' that charge money, for basically nothing, and fill people's heads with useless bullshit. Although, the one thing I really like about this Neo-Shamanism, as the Icelander put it, recognizes that there is no 'ONE' or 'Right' way to proceed religiously or philosophically.

This is surely a principle I hold true.


--------------------
...


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: Neo-shamanism [Re: Herbus]
    #4936495 - 11/15/05 11:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

in my recent experiances with some simply irresponsible
vendors ive gotten a strong impression that these people
are very ill informed.
for instance: vendors selling datura, belladonna, salvia, amanita etc.
who are of the oppinions that mushrooms and DMT are to dangerous to
be an acceptable product to sell.

it seems to me that these vendors are mostly oriented towards pleasure
and recreation.

so there is no intention aquire anything of value from the experiance,
wich means they do not qualify as 'neo shamans'


--------------------
-Know ye not that ye are gods?-
My homepage


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