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OfflineOrbus
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Shamanic Enlightenment
    #7689751 - 11/28/07 12:16 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I have been wondering about this question for quite some time now and wanted to hear the thoughts of other people. Can shamanic techniques result in the same sort of continual enlightenment experience as the Asian religions, particularly Buddhism, claim to achieve?

By enlightenment I mean a continual state of selfless, non-dual experience, i.e. no distinction between self and other. Now I am very aware that these type of experiences often occur during the course of psychedelic experience in the form of what is often called ego death on these boards, but this experience never persists once the trip ends. Likewise, certain forms of meditation can create this experience, but it too ends when meditation stops. However, the claim of the Buddhists is that eventually this experience can subsist through all experience, waking, sleeping, and in meditation.

Unlike Buddhism with its emphasis on liberation, most shamans are concerned with psychological healing and gaining secret information. At least this is the conventional opinion, but I wonder two things: Is it actually true and is it possible that shamanic techniques particularly those using psychedelics may offer yet unrealized potential for liberation. I think there is a big difference between shamanism that uses techniques such as drumming and dancing and those that use psychedelics. Namely, psychedelic shamanism is much more powerful and indeed can do more than just heal or take one on a shamanic journey.

I just recently watched this shamanism video that was posted on the psychedelic experience board and in it an ex-shaman stated he knew other shamans who "existed outside of space and time, knew everything, and lived only in the present." To me this description sounds just how Buddhist enlightenment is described. I am beginning to see more and more evidence that by implementing psychedelics into Buddhist practice, or simply using them with a "Buddhist" intent may greatly accelerate the time it would take one to achieve this sort of realization.

What do you guys think?


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Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7689816 - 11/28/07 12:36 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I am beginning to see more and more evidence that by implementing psychedelics into Buddhist practice, or simply using them with a "Buddhist" intent may greatly accelerate the time it would take one to achieve this sort of realization.

What do you guys think?


I think psychedelics go well with just about anything.:thumbup: Just ask all those fun loving vets from Viet Nam.

Good tool for focusing intent.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/28/07 12:37 PM)


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #7689983 - 11/28/07 01:26 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yes. It's possible (so they say anyway). Stanislav Grof writes about this in LSD Psychotherapy as the "final ego death". Bache has a few articles on this written also.

The purgation effected through years of monastic discipline is more gradual and therefore gentler than that produced by LSD, which is sudden and traumatic by comparison. A process that takes place slowly and organically in the monastic context is accelerated and intensified many times in LSD therapy, producing a more violent confrontation and catharsis. --Mysticism and Psychedelics:
The Case of the Dark Night, by Christopher M. Bache, Ph.D.


You can check his full article at http://www.primal-page.com/night.htm

PS; what's the title of that video you mention? I wanna check it out too.


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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OfflineOrbus
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #7690949 - 11/28/07 04:58 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8756441303971858561&hl=en-AU

Thanks for the article. This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for.


Edited by Orbus (11/28/07 05:02 PM)


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7694661 - 11/29/07 02:35 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Sure. Thanks for the video! Ah yes, you can also check out Documents for serious Psychonauts (www.markovide.com/psychonaut/). Some good files there too.


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7694709 - 11/29/07 02:50 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

A fascinating path to travel... looking for ego death... and a great teacher. Looking for the right path...

Still, every teacher eventually disappoints his student... unless the student is deaf, dumb and blind.

Brace yourself for disappointment. That too, is a learning experience.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineOrbus
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Rose]
    #7694904 - 11/29/07 03:42 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Teachers disappoint only if one thinks that they are going to gain something from them. Good teachers are a tool just like anything else. However, ultimately the path of spiritual discovery is something you must do for yourself. There are a lot of frauds out there, but I believe there are also some people that are genuinely enlightened. The trick is knowing the difference.


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------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7694916 - 11/29/07 03:47 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

What if it was the teacher's purpose to disappoint you? :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7694927 - 11/29/07 03:50 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Your point is valid... except for the fact you missed the very definition of the word, "TEACHer".

If they didn't have something to offer you, by definition, they could not TEACH you.

While I believe people can be, "Enlightened". I have yet to meet the, "Enlightened" person who is not still, "Human".

You look in a good direction, but you WILL be disappointed... until you learn what I am telling you. :wink:

An, honest to God... Old-School shaman is, "Wise" and, "Human"...

An, "Enlightened" man...is at least 99.999% of the time... nothing but a fraud.

Look for a WISE teacher... not an ENLIGHTENED one... you will  find MUCH more along THAT path.

If you are confused, look those words up: Wise... Enlightened... I think they might not mean what you THINK they mean. They are practically, synonymous... but not quite.

Neither means, "No ego".


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (11/29/07 04:07 PM)


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OfflineOrbus
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Rose]
    #7694972 - 11/29/07 04:09 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I agree and I know the difference between wise and enlightened. Maybe a spiritual guide is a better definition than teacher. I have never met an enlightened person, don't know if I every will, or if I could even spot one if I did. I don't think I'll be disappointed because I'm not really in the search for one. I'm a firm believer in do it yourself and am very skeptical of any kind of guru. There are people that have things to offer, but its important, I think, to always take what people say with a grain of salt. Its like when the Buddha said, "don't believe what I say just because I say it, go find out for yourself if its true."

You're right enlightenment does not mean "no ego" as ego death seems to imply. An enlightened person simply sees the ego for what it is.


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


Edited by Orbus (11/29/07 04:16 PM)


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695012 - 11/29/07 04:22 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Wisdom lies in the TANGIBLE unlike, "SPIRITuality." Look THAT word up too (SPIRITuality), if you don't believe me.

If you want to LEARN... LEARN what is AROUND YOU. Don't waste your time believing in what does not, "Yet" exist.

Enough people are doing THAT already... AND, if they ARE right, they'll find it FOR you. :thumbup:

I assure you, JESUS won't send you to hell for being a, "Good Samaritan". :wink:

... look it up...

Wisdom is what it is... and yet, it creates the illusion of, "Magic."

In the MEANTIME, look at what we ALREADY HAVE.

THAT is wisdom.

THAT is the path to ENLIGHTENMENT.

Until you figure THAT out... you WILL be disappointed.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (11/29/07 04:31 PM)


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OfflineOrbus
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Rose]
    #7695054 - 11/29/07 04:31 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I'm on board man. There is no enlightenment. We are all already enlightened. Heaven is where you are. I don't want to learn or gain anything. There is nothing I can get, so there is nothing to look for. How can I be disappointed.

Agree to agree?


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695072 - 11/29/07 04:34 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Orbus said:
Agree to agree?




No.

'Cause we STILL don't... yet.

I agree with the FIRST half of your last post, the second half... is utter bulshit. :smirk:

Oh, and it should've ended with a question mark. :o

Read my last post again.

Then try one more time.

This is fun.

:smile:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (11/29/07 04:41 PM)


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OfflineOrbus
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Rose]
    #7695097 - 11/29/07 04:41 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

ahh Ok. You gotta give me something better to work with. And don't give me definitions. I can use a dictionary, but I don't cause they're full of crap. Synonymy provides no new information.


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695120 - 11/29/07 04:47 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Orbus said:
ahh Ok. You gotta give me something better to work with. And don't give me definitions. I can use a dictionary, but I don't cause they're full of crap. Synonymy provides no new information.




Oy!

If I had a nickel for every person who has used THAT argument against me...

Look.

You ask GOOD questions.

I WANT to discuss them.

I am an OLD SCHOOL Shroomerite. Nice to meet you.

Now.

We MUST AGREE on the DEFINITIONS of CERTAIN WORDS, before we can DISCUSS these COMPLEX issues over an ONLINE BULLETIN BOARD.

:smirk:

I have been arond the block here.

Trust me.

This is the ONLY way we can successfully discuss the interesting subject matter of this thread in THIS forum.

You asked a GREAT question.

Please, allow us to discuss it with WORDS. :wink:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineOrbus
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Rose]
    #7695168 - 11/29/07 05:00 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Ok you're right. Nice to meet you too. I'm obviously new, but I have been around the philosophical block a few times as well.

Knowledge - information that can be conceptualized, reasoned about, logical, and transmitted through language.

Wisdom - knowledge (not the above the definition, but I can't think of anything else. Information surely won't work) that can't be defined or put into language. Something more like feeling, a way of being in the world.

Enlightenment - permanent state of non-dual awareness. Ego still functions for social activity, but there is no longer identification with it. Experience of timelessness, infinite space. Universe as body or body as universe. (This is obviously rough, and ultimately incorrect as enlightenment cannot be put into words)


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695201 - 11/29/07 05:07 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Enlightenment - permanent state of non-dual awareness.

Preposterous, outrageous, ridiculous; not to be found on the third rock from the sun.

Now if you meant "lightenment" (as in using makeup or painting your walls a lighter color, or losing weight) well then I would have to concur.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOrbus
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #7695243 - 11/29/07 05:17 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Well what's your definition. I think this is pretty close. The "permanent" part I agree is debatable. However descriptions like this http://www.geocities.com/jiji_muge/dazzdark.html seem the provide evidence that these states can remain.


Edited by Orbus (11/29/07 05:27 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695286 - 11/29/07 05:27 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

That's mostly what I was referring to.

I don't think enlightenment really exists. But if it does it's nothing special and experienced by many people seeking it or not, spiritual/religious or not. It's just wisdom based in logic connected to feeling.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695308 - 11/29/07 05:32 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

but I believe there are also some people that are genuinely enlightened. The trick is knowing the difference.




Please explain 'the trick' in clear, precise language so that we may all learn something.


--------------------


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