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OfflineJive turkey
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7599378 - 11/05/07 07:30 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't see why you would say westerners can't become shaman , If someone was interested in let's say ''Christianity'' who wasn't born into it went out got a bible and started going to church and found god would they not be able to call themselves a Christian just because they were born in a culture that was absent of that religion?


Edited by Jive turkey (11/05/07 07:34 PM)


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OfflineMinot_6805
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7599384 - 11/05/07 07:31 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

What came first the shaman or the shamanic culture?


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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Shamanism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7599388 - 11/05/07 07:33 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
I am a shaman, magician
The sun is purple
3D dimensions
I am for mental extensions.




:rockon:




:rockon: lol


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Jive turkey]
    #7599391 - 11/05/07 07:33 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Jive turkey said:
I don't see why you would say westerners can't become shaman , If someone was interested in let's say ''Christianity'' who wasn't born into it went out got a bible and started going to church and found god would they not be able to call themselves and Christian just because they were born in a culture that was absent of that religion?



Originally, it was that way. There was a time when you had to be a Jew in order to be a Christian.


--------------------


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Jive turkey]
    #7599529 - 11/05/07 08:08 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

A "shaman" is a specialized role within a culture. It is not a religion itself, rather a particular type of religious practice, so your comparison is not quite on. All one has to do to call themselves a Christian is believe that Jesus was the son of God.

I will explain this in the greatest possible detail one more time:

To become a shaman one must: a) recieve a 'call' which may come in a dream, the strange behaviour of an animal, or something like that b) accept the call and begin training as a shaman's apprentice c) Learn everything there is to know about the culture's mythology in a manner much deeper than many other members of the culture would d)learn about the causes and cures of illnesses e) learn all there is to know about medicines.

After this training, which usually involves activities that are very dangerous and often life threatening, the initiate must go enter the spirit world alone. In this journey they are attacked by hostile spirits and often killed (in spirit, although in the flesh too, often enough.) If they return from the journey the hostile spirits will have become thier helpers for further journeys and they will have returned utterly changed.

Upon return they will now be regarded as a shaman and will begin practicing. The details of training and practice vary incredibly between cultures, but the skeleton, the pattern, are the same. What makes a person a shaman is all of this, and the recognition of the culture that this person has undergone this process as thier tasks are bound up in the needs of the community. One is not a shaman if one does not fulfill the role within the community. One cannot be a shaman if their journeying is for thier own personal development. Shaman is not the correct term for someone who does this. This is not invalidate the activities of the solo journeyer, but the term is incorrectly used to describe this sort of activity and we'd do best to come up with another term. Journeyer, soul traveller, whatever. Pick something. The term shaman is a specialized term to refer to the above described. Some people in our culture have chosen to use it more loosely, but this is problematic as it means the word has lost meaning and become ambiguous. I realize that this happens to language, but it is important to understand the meaning of words so as to apply them appropriately and avoid the confusion of concepts.

For further reading I recommend Mircea Eliade, the anthopologist who first recognized this pattern. Before his work, most anthropologists thought shamans were schizophrenics. This is called "naive realism" - when someone applies thier own cultural concepts to another culture, misunderstanding what is really going on for them.

Icelander: If you didn't notice, you weren't paying attention. :tongue: :wink:


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7599581 - 11/05/07 08:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Here is an interesting site linking together schizophrenia and shamanism: http://website.lineone.net/~crowseed/sands/skzindex.html

very interesting, a lot of it may affirm the experiences of people after ego loss and the period following that

Quote:

It appears to the schizophrenic that everyone else in the world is living in an enlightened state, albeit without free will. The schizophrenic believes that s/he is the only one who cannot attain this sacred state, despite the whole world waiting for them to make that final leap of consciousness. Everyone else appears to be aware of a secret language beneath the apparent meaning of words, a magical subtext which creates and shapes the world, but use it without conscience, for they have invested their free will and hope of salvation in the schizophrenic. The schizophrenic meanwhile becomes so bogged down in the secret meaning of words that they can sometimes only be computable to them as individual syllables. Thus "warm" can equate with "war", for example, a state to be avoided. Even words with particular sounds can become diseased, for example the "p" in "happy" can make it an undesirable state.




wow.. so weird to think back on those times, how real it all was. that period of my life will always get me thinking..


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OfflineLion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7599618 - 11/05/07 08:28 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I can relate to that A LOT.

It's hard not to wonder who's in on the joke, and why I am not in on the joke.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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OfflineMinot_6805
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Lion]
    #7599842 - 11/05/07 09:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I thought being a christian was more then just sayin jesus is the direct son of god, but more about emulating jesus/being christ like but I dont really know.


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Offlinebbaeker
baeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Minot_6805]
    #7600973 - 11/06/07 01:21 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

that is more close to the point. the term christian came from the romans mocking those who were "followers of The Way" by calling them "little Christs", this is the root of the term "christian" and it is very close to the point, which is to in a sense be Christ.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7601036 - 11/06/07 01:35 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

What one must commit to in order to define themselves as a Christian varies from sect to sect, but my point is still that there is a difference between being a member of a religion and being a particular type of practitioner within that religion. Let's say it's the difference between being a Christian and being a Bishop. To be a Bishop you have to be a Catholic and follow all of the prescribed steps that allow one to claim the title. It's the same with being a shaman.

There's also a big difference between Christianity and shamanistic religions, in that a defining feature of Christianity, at least these days, is that it actively seeks converts. Most shamanic traditions are not looking for converts but are rather designed by and for the people of the culture. Hence the issue of context.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7601758 - 11/06/07 11:24 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

"Please don't squeeze the Shaman"

I fulfill the shamanic role in my culture but no one ever comes to see me. Hey that's not my fault.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineKinematics
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7601925 - 11/06/07 12:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Wow, this thread is so full of misinformation it's not even funny.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Kinematics]
    #7601943 - 11/06/07 12:24 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Misinformation? Do you care to make an argument here, because my information comes from my studies in anthropology. If you have a different perspective, please share, and please cite your sources. I, however, have not misinformed anybody.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7602474 - 11/06/07 02:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I think he was talking to me. (it's not all about you ya know:lol:)

I do spread misinformation whenever possible. It works just as well here and is easier to come by.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMinot_6805
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7604021 - 11/06/07 08:29 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I dont really know much about shamanism but what about some of the shamanic cultures dying out and the spirits of those cultures calling out to people of other cultures? Ive read and heard a few things to that accord.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7604360 - 11/06/07 10:04 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
(it's not all about you ya know:lol:)





Really? :undecided:


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OfflineBard
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7605728 - 11/07/07 08:33 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Terence McKenna said in one of his lectures, that "the Shaman is the smart guy." And if you are this shaman, this smart guy, and go to a completely different culture, for example an amazonian or siberian tribal shamanic culture, the shaman will know you, and you will know the shaman, you maybe can't communicate with the other tribe members, because of cultural differences, but you can communicate with the shaman. You are on a different level, than the others.

I sometimes think about myself as a smart guy :smirk:, but never tested this theory... Last night under the influence of enormous amount of alcohol I met a black guy, who claimed that he was from Haiti. I tried to get information from him about voodoo and zombies, but he was very secretive.  :shrug: We laughed a lot nevertheless... He was too funny.  :biggrin:


--------------------
So dreaming let's you know reality exists.



I don't belive. I fear.


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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Bard]
    #7606495 - 11/07/07 01:20 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

i dont have a problem if it dies out as long as curent medical practices die too! or imporves


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


Edited by thedudenj (11/07/07 01:36 PM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Bard]
    #7606624 - 11/07/07 01:51 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bard said:
Terence McKenna said in one of his lectures, that "the Shaman is the smart guy." And if you are this shaman, this smart guy, and go to a completely different culture, for example an amazonian or siberian tribal shamanic culture, the shaman will know you, and you will know the shaman, you maybe can't communicate with the other tribe members, because of cultural differences, but you can communicate with the shaman. You are on a different level, than the others.

I sometimes think about myself as a smart guy :smirk:, but never tested this theory... Last night under the influence of enormous amount of alcohol I met a black guy, who claimed that he was from Haiti. I tried to get information from him about voodoo and zombies, but he was very secretive.  :shrug: We laughed a lot nevertheless... He was too funny.  :biggrin:




Uh, this is ridiculous. The shaman is the smart guy? No other social role requires intelligence in band and tribe level societies? You think that some white dude who can't manage to communicate with a regular person about regular things is gonna manage to communicate with a shaman about complex, abstract concepts about the culture and thier mythos? What, because he likes drugs? Don't you think this is a little self inflated and unrealistic?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7607457 - 11/07/07 05:37 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Actually, TM said "the Shaman knows when to hold on and when to let go."

I am a neo-shaman. Therefore I get to make up my own rules.:hissyfit:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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