Home | Community | Message Board

Mycohaus
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds, High THC Strains, USA West Coast Strains   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Injection Grain Bag, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
OfflineOrbus
The Liberator
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 85
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Shamanic Enlightenment
    #7689751 - 11/28/07 12:16 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I have been wondering about this question for quite some time now and wanted to hear the thoughts of other people. Can shamanic techniques result in the same sort of continual enlightenment experience as the Asian religions, particularly Buddhism, claim to achieve?

By enlightenment I mean a continual state of selfless, non-dual experience, i.e. no distinction between self and other. Now I am very aware that these type of experiences often occur during the course of psychedelic experience in the form of what is often called ego death on these boards, but this experience never persists once the trip ends. Likewise, certain forms of meditation can create this experience, but it too ends when meditation stops. However, the claim of the Buddhists is that eventually this experience can subsist through all experience, waking, sleeping, and in meditation.

Unlike Buddhism with its emphasis on liberation, most shamans are concerned with psychological healing and gaining secret information. At least this is the conventional opinion, but I wonder two things: Is it actually true and is it possible that shamanic techniques particularly those using psychedelics may offer yet unrealized potential for liberation. I think there is a big difference between shamanism that uses techniques such as drumming and dancing and those that use psychedelics. Namely, psychedelic shamanism is much more powerful and indeed can do more than just heal or take one on a shamanic journey.

I just recently watched this shamanism video that was posted on the psychedelic experience board and in it an ex-shaman stated he knew other shamans who "existed outside of space and time, knew everything, and lived only in the present." To me this description sounds just how Buddhist enlightenment is described. I am beginning to see more and more evidence that by implementing psychedelics into Buddhist practice, or simply using them with a "Buddhist" intent may greatly accelerate the time it would take one to achieve this sort of realization.

What do you guys think?


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7689816 - 11/28/07 12:36 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I am beginning to see more and more evidence that by implementing psychedelics into Buddhist practice, or simply using them with a "Buddhist" intent may greatly accelerate the time it would take one to achieve this sort of realization.

What do you guys think?


I think psychedelics go well with just about anything.:thumbup: Just ask all those fun loving vets from Viet Nam.

Good tool for focusing intent.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/28/07 12:37 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibleredtailedhawk
Explorer of the Mystery
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 558
Loc: The Old Continent
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #7689983 - 11/28/07 01:26 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yes. It's possible (so they say anyway). Stanislav Grof writes about this in LSD Psychotherapy as the "final ego death". Bache has a few articles on this written also.

The purgation effected through years of monastic discipline is more gradual and therefore gentler than that produced by LSD, which is sudden and traumatic by comparison. A process that takes place slowly and organically in the monastic context is accelerated and intensified many times in LSD therapy, producing a more violent confrontation and catharsis. --Mysticism and Psychedelics:
The Case of the Dark Night, by Christopher M. Bache, Ph.D.


You can check his full article at http://www.primal-page.com/night.htm

PS; what's the title of that video you mention? I wanna check it out too.


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineOrbus
The Liberator
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 85
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #7690949 - 11/28/07 04:58 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8756441303971858561&hl=en-AU

Thanks for the article. This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for.


Edited by Orbus (11/28/07 05:02 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibleredtailedhawk
Explorer of the Mystery
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 558
Loc: The Old Continent
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7694661 - 11/29/07 02:35 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Sure. Thanks for the video! Ah yes, you can also check out Documents for serious Psychonauts (www.markovide.com/psychonaut/). Some good files there too.


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,517
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 8 days
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7694709 - 11/29/07 02:50 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

A fascinating path to travel... looking for ego death... and a great teacher. Looking for the right path...

Still, every teacher eventually disappoints his student... unless the student is deaf, dumb and blind.

Brace yourself for disappointment. That too, is a learning experience.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineOrbus
The Liberator
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 85
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Rose]
    #7694904 - 11/29/07 03:42 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Teachers disappoint only if one thinks that they are going to gain something from them. Good teachers are a tool just like anything else. However, ultimately the path of spiritual discovery is something you must do for yourself. There are a lot of frauds out there, but I believe there are also some people that are genuinely enlightened. The trick is knowing the difference.


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 7 months, 12 days
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7694916 - 11/29/07 03:47 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

What if it was the teacher's purpose to disappoint you? :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,517
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 8 days
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7694927 - 11/29/07 03:50 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Your point is valid... except for the fact you missed the very definition of the word, "TEACHer".

If they didn't have something to offer you, by definition, they could not TEACH you.

While I believe people can be, "Enlightened". I have yet to meet the, "Enlightened" person who is not still, "Human".

You look in a good direction, but you WILL be disappointed... until you learn what I am telling you. :wink:

An, honest to God... Old-School shaman is, "Wise" and, "Human"...

An, "Enlightened" man...is at least 99.999% of the time... nothing but a fraud.

Look for a WISE teacher... not an ENLIGHTENED one... you will  find MUCH more along THAT path.

If you are confused, look those words up: Wise... Enlightened... I think they might not mean what you THINK they mean. They are practically, synonymous... but not quite.

Neither means, "No ego".


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (11/29/07 04:07 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineOrbus
The Liberator
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 85
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Rose]
    #7694972 - 11/29/07 04:09 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I agree and I know the difference between wise and enlightened. Maybe a spiritual guide is a better definition than teacher. I have never met an enlightened person, don't know if I every will, or if I could even spot one if I did. I don't think I'll be disappointed because I'm not really in the search for one. I'm a firm believer in do it yourself and am very skeptical of any kind of guru. There are people that have things to offer, but its important, I think, to always take what people say with a grain of salt. Its like when the Buddha said, "don't believe what I say just because I say it, go find out for yourself if its true."

You're right enlightenment does not mean "no ego" as ego death seems to imply. An enlightened person simply sees the ego for what it is.


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


Edited by Orbus (11/29/07 04:16 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,517
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 8 days
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695012 - 11/29/07 04:22 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Wisdom lies in the TANGIBLE unlike, "SPIRITuality." Look THAT word up too (SPIRITuality), if you don't believe me.

If you want to LEARN... LEARN what is AROUND YOU. Don't waste your time believing in what does not, "Yet" exist.

Enough people are doing THAT already... AND, if they ARE right, they'll find it FOR you. :thumbup:

I assure you, JESUS won't send you to hell for being a, "Good Samaritan". :wink:

... look it up...

Wisdom is what it is... and yet, it creates the illusion of, "Magic."

In the MEANTIME, look at what we ALREADY HAVE.

THAT is wisdom.

THAT is the path to ENLIGHTENMENT.

Until you figure THAT out... you WILL be disappointed.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (11/29/07 04:31 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineOrbus
The Liberator
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 85
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Rose]
    #7695054 - 11/29/07 04:31 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I'm on board man. There is no enlightenment. We are all already enlightened. Heaven is where you are. I don't want to learn or gain anything. There is nothing I can get, so there is nothing to look for. How can I be disappointed.

Agree to agree?


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,517
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 8 days
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695072 - 11/29/07 04:34 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Orbus said:
Agree to agree?




No.

'Cause we STILL don't... yet.

I agree with the FIRST half of your last post, the second half... is utter bulshit. :smirk:

Oh, and it should've ended with a question mark. :o

Read my last post again.

Then try one more time.

This is fun.

:smile:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (11/29/07 04:41 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineOrbus
The Liberator
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 85
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Rose]
    #7695097 - 11/29/07 04:41 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

ahh Ok. You gotta give me something better to work with. And don't give me definitions. I can use a dictionary, but I don't cause they're full of crap. Synonymy provides no new information.


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,517
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 8 days
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695120 - 11/29/07 04:47 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Orbus said:
ahh Ok. You gotta give me something better to work with. And don't give me definitions. I can use a dictionary, but I don't cause they're full of crap. Synonymy provides no new information.




Oy!

If I had a nickel for every person who has used THAT argument against me...

Look.

You ask GOOD questions.

I WANT to discuss them.

I am an OLD SCHOOL Shroomerite. Nice to meet you.

Now.

We MUST AGREE on the DEFINITIONS of CERTAIN WORDS, before we can DISCUSS these COMPLEX issues over an ONLINE BULLETIN BOARD.

:smirk:

I have been arond the block here.

Trust me.

This is the ONLY way we can successfully discuss the interesting subject matter of this thread in THIS forum.

You asked a GREAT question.

Please, allow us to discuss it with WORDS. :wink:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineOrbus
The Liberator
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 85
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Rose]
    #7695168 - 11/29/07 05:00 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Ok you're right. Nice to meet you too. I'm obviously new, but I have been around the philosophical block a few times as well.

Knowledge - information that can be conceptualized, reasoned about, logical, and transmitted through language.

Wisdom - knowledge (not the above the definition, but I can't think of anything else. Information surely won't work) that can't be defined or put into language. Something more like feeling, a way of being in the world.

Enlightenment - permanent state of non-dual awareness. Ego still functions for social activity, but there is no longer identification with it. Experience of timelessness, infinite space. Universe as body or body as universe. (This is obviously rough, and ultimately incorrect as enlightenment cannot be put into words)


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695201 - 11/29/07 05:07 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Enlightenment - permanent state of non-dual awareness.

Preposterous, outrageous, ridiculous; not to be found on the third rock from the sun.

Now if you meant "lightenment" (as in using makeup or painting your walls a lighter color, or losing weight) well then I would have to concur.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineOrbus
The Liberator
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 85
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #7695243 - 11/29/07 05:17 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Well what's your definition. I think this is pretty close. The "permanent" part I agree is debatable. However descriptions like this http://www.geocities.com/jiji_muge/dazzdark.html seem the provide evidence that these states can remain.


Edited by Orbus (11/29/07 05:27 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695286 - 11/29/07 05:27 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

That's mostly what I was referring to.

I don't think enlightenment really exists. But if it does it's nothing special and experienced by many people seeking it or not, spiritual/religious or not. It's just wisdom based in logic connected to feeling.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,399
Loc: Under the C
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695308 - 11/29/07 05:32 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

but I believe there are also some people that are genuinely enlightened. The trick is knowing the difference.




Please explain 'the trick' in clear, precise language so that we may all learn something.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7695319 - 11/29/07 05:34 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

The trick is to be influenced by those you consider authority figures.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,399
Loc: Under the C
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695320 - 11/29/07 05:34 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

And don't give me definitions. I can use a dictionary, but I don't cause they're full of crap.




This wins the most ridiculous statement of the week award! :trophy:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7695327 - 11/29/07 05:35 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, that's pretty worthy all right.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineOrbus
The Liberator
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 85
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7695369 - 11/29/07 05:43 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Well if you think you can find real knowledge in a dictionary be my guest. Oh and maybe I wasn't being completely literal with that statement. Just maybe.

As for how to tell who is an enlightened person, they would likely exhibit some of these qualities or describe their experience like this.



1. The experience of nothingness:

No other state of human existence gets to be permeated with the all-encompassing feeling of nothingness. Regularly, we go through life by experiencing the feelings of gain or loss. We reach for something and attain it, or we fail to attain it and then have to cope with the rejection. Or, the flip side of the coin would be that we try to avoid the unpleasant situation and manage to succeed doing it, or fail and have to face the consequences of enduring the unpleasant ordeal. Whichever the case may be, there is no place in this busy enterprise of ours for any feelings of nothingness to creep in.

Upon suddenly seeing into our true self-nature, we are left with that unique 'aroma' of nothingness. Some people think that it is a literal, that is a literal black-and-white not anything nothing nothingness (meaning either everything becomes either pitch black or totally white, with no discernment and differentiation.) Not true. Everything is as it is, and if at that moment a car is rushing toward you, you would see it and you'd move out of its way. So, in this respect, it is important to stress that Enlightenment is not a state where all the cortical neural activity has ceased. You continue to function as every other sentient being.

What is this nothingness business then all about? In Buddhism, Zen, and Enlightenment nothingness is refered to as the "great void" or Sunyata, and in general, presented in the sutras and elsewhere similar to the following:



The sutras often use the word "great void" to explain the significance of Sunyata. In general, we understand the "great void" as something that contains absolutely nothing. However, from a Buddhist perspective, the nature of the "great void" implies something which does not obstruct other things, in which all matters perform their own functions. Materials are form, which by their nature, imply obstruction. The special characteristic of the "great void" is non-obstruction. The "great void" therefore, does not serve as an obstacle to them. Since the "great void" exhibits no obstructive tendencies, it serves as the foundation for matter to function. In other words, if there was no "great void" nor characteristic of non-obstruction, it would be impossible for the material world to exist and function. (source)



Enlightenment, is a very unsophisticated state of affairs. To the mind that used to harbor lofty ideals and grand plans, it is a very disappointing incident indeed. You may be saying to yourself: "All these years I have spent building a more perfect head to put on top my own head, and now I see how it's been totally in vain!"

2. Everybody else is also Enlightened:

The insight that everybody and everything has surfaced to the Enlightened state of mind simultaneously with you is definitely accompanying the very moment of Realization. This is why you know that the reality is perfect. It is not perfect in its potentiality, it is perfect in its fully actualized state, standing with you hand in hand, face to face. The "everybody is also Enlightened" statement can become confusing, of course, because the first thing everybody says is "Hey, I'm Enlightened." However, the Enlightened state is a "non-dualist" attainment, thus there can not be an "I'm," nor a "you Enlightened, them not" as there is no longer a you and them (dualist). In the story at the top of the page the wandering ascetic, called Upaka in the Sutras, meets the Buddha face to face and was unable to discern his Enlightened state. When the one-day-to-become Sixth Patriarch Hui-neng was Awakened out of nowhere as a young boy and met the Fifth Patriarch Hung-jen for the first time, Hung-jen, although remaining silent in front of his disciples, recognized Hui-neng's Attainment. In When Infinities Collide there is another outcome.

In Buddhism, Zen and the Enlightened sphere the foundation of the non-dualist realm is Dependent Origination:

NOT ONE THING Anekaartham:

Dependent Origination, properly understood, denies that anything is absolutely singular. A thing is nothing more than the coming together of all its causes, and no thing has a single cause. So even though a thing may be perceived a single thing, reflection will always reveal that it is in fact a multiplicity of factors complexly arranged. What we take to be an individual (literally undivided whole) is never in fact indivisible. For Nagarjuna this means that no physical thing is simple; every thing is composed of parts, and therefore is liable to decompose. But it also means that no concept is primitive and basic. Every concept is built up of related concepts. Every concept has meaning only within a specific context of other concepts. And so the very attempt to arrive at primitive ideas, or axioms, from which other ideas can be derived, is doomed to failure.

NOT MANY THINGS Anaanaartham:

Nagarjuna was very fond at applying recursive logic. Recursion is the name given to using the output of an operation as input to the same operation. Now we saw above that nothing is simple, because everything is made of a multiplicity of factors. So, for example, we could say that an apparent whole W is in fact a set of parts {a,b,c,d....}. But we can now substitute any one of those parts for W, with the result that we realize that none of the apparent parts of the whole is itself a simple thing. Indeed, if we continue the process of analysis to its logical conclusion, the result is that there are no things at all, even to serve as parts of larger wholes. But if there are no parts at all, then it is really NOT true after all to say of a whole that it is in fact made of many parts(nanaartha). (source)



3. Immediate welcome:

Somebody, something, somehow welcomes you. It is a silent welcome (a thundering, deafening silence), but you definitely feel it in your marrow -- your liberation is being silently celebrated throughout the reality. This is probably why we read that on many accounts people, upon attaining liberation, have exclaimed: "The patriarchs and the Buddhas have not deceived me!" Or, that people say how fish swim in the trees, birds chirp and flutter in the depths of the ocean, and mountains straddle the river.

4. No need to talk about it:

This feeling is extremely pronounced in the first several weeks following the Enlightenment. Talking, even thinking about it is felt to be as superfluous as asking a fellow passenger on a train: "Are you, too, traveling in this train?" It's meaningless. Since everybody else is also Enlightened, what's there to talk about? You just live.

5. The profound body of spiritual literature falls short of capturing it:

You may start developing a mild urge, after several days or so, to go and re-examine and compare your experience with the accounts recorded in the holy scriptures. Prepare yourself for a very disappointing experience. All the exalted words will look very pale and lifeless when put side by side with what you've been through and one of the reasons such historical notable Zen adepts as Te Shan burned all their Zen books and commentaries in the immediate moments following Attainment.

Actually, the entire body of the world literature that was accumulated in thousands of years of written history looks like no more than twenty six letters of the alphabet when compared to the richness of the experience of Enlightenment. Learning and mastering the entire human thought, as it is recorded in the world, would amount to no more than grasping the alphabet. From there on, you'd have to learn to form the words, sentences, paragraphs, chapters, books. Immeasurably much more work lies ahead.

No wonder then that accomplished Zen masters speak about the stink of Enlightenment (or, the sickness of it). It can get unbearably grand.

6. The realization of the sublime cosmic joke:

Earlier we said that the all-pervading feeling of nothingness means that there is nothing to transmit, nothing to get, nothing to lose, nothing to achieve, nothing to learn, etc. Now is the time to discuss how the Enlightened being realizes that the Enlightenment is just a first step, and that the learning has just begun. This is the paradox, or the 'cosmic joke', but only in the linguistic sense. In actuality, it is something of a Koan:

Another way to look at it is to recognize that what is characteristic for an Enlightened being is to be in the state of the perennial beginner. This, of course, has to do with the freshness of the general attitude, and with the mind's emptiness (or the lack of experience thereof) which is making the process possible. But, the beginner can exist only in relation to the accomplished master. So, one realizes that at all times, one is the beginner and the accomplished master simultaneously. Since there is no way to express it otherwise, we refer to it as a cosmic joke.

7. All the questions have been answered and exhausted:

Typically, a person who experiences the wondrous Enlightenment is a person who's been on a long, intense journey, searching for something. Usually, such person has some pressing questions, something approaching the matters of life and death in its seriousness and importance. In addition, it is very likely that such person has been through some inordinately strong, long phase of suffering. This may not always be the case, but it's more likely than not. What the Enlightenment does to such person is it dissolves all those things. Everything's gone up in a puff of smoke! The search is once and for all over (but don't fool yourself -- the new one begins!) I will make a very bold statement here and say that if, after attaining what seems to be an Enlightenment, you still have some of the old questions pressing as hard as before, you may have to work some more on your breakthrough.

Not to be mistaken, though, we should stress that usually the first breakthrough is somewhat shallow (Kensho) and will not manage to uproot all the seeds of the habitual consciousness (Satori)). So, the pressing questions will most definitely return (although they've been so gracefully dissolved), but never with the same Fear of Death intensity. This time around, the suffering such thoughts may give rise to will be similar to the suffering we feel upon waking from an unpleasant dream: there are all the symptoms of suffering and uneasiness, but at the same time we don't really care, knowing that it's only a dream. As the great guitarist John McLaughlin once said: "Everything's there but nothing is traumatic."


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695408 - 11/29/07 05:51 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

As for how to tell who is an enlightened person, they would likely exhibit some of these qualities or describe their experience like this.



1. The experience of nothingness:


Gee you lost me so quick. :lol: How would someone "exhibit the quality of the experience of nothingness"?

And especially if they had 4. No need to talk about it:


7. All the questions have been answered and exhausted:

I feel like I'm there. I missed some of the rest so I guess I'm just "lightened", but it's a start.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,399
Loc: Under the C
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #7695440 - 11/29/07 05:59 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I doth nickname thee 'Chricelander' (or is it 'Christlander'). :rofl:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,399
Loc: Under the C
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695449 - 11/29/07 06:02 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I must have missed something. I see no litmus test, merely tons of blather. You will do well on MRP.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineOrbus
The Liberator
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 85
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #7695454 - 11/29/07 06:03 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Well thats the best I could do. I'm just trying to answer his question. Did you read the end of my sentence "or describe their experience like" They could describe an experience of nothingness, (not accurately) and just because they have no need to talk about it doesn't mean they couldn't if asked.

You're right there is no litmus test. Thats why its a trick. Enlightened people are supposed to look and act like everyday normal people. By the way that description isn't by me but it reflects my beliefs.


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


Edited by Orbus (11/29/07 06:07 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Shamanic Enlightenment [Re: Orbus]
    #7695462 - 11/29/07 06:06 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

They could describe an experience of nothingness, (not accurately)

I can describe the experience of nothingness "not accurately". I guess I must be more enlightened then I thought.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds, High THC Strains, USA West Coast Strains   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Injection Grain Bag, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* will any of us reach enlightenment?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Sole_Worthy 5,644 61 10/29/05 12:03 AM
by dblaney
* Spirituality, shamanism? leery11 2,569 18 05/03/06 07:35 AM
by fireworks_god
* On guru's and teachers
( 1 2 3 4 all )
MOTH 4,652 76 08/01/05 12:19 AM
by Icelander
* Neo-shamanism
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Icelander 5,527 68 11/15/05 11:53 AM
by Vertigo6911
* Projection of the Enlightened?
( 1 2 3 all )
Ravus 4,427 48 07/30/05 03:03 AM
by MushmanTheManic
* Why did Shamanism fail?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
Swami 13,540 134 03/08/11 06:27 PM
by Cactilove
* Are hippies enlightened?
( 1 2 3 all )
Dogomush 5,640 49 11/04/03 07:46 AM
by Anonymous
* Why are Buddhists more moral?
( 1 2 all )
SkorpivoMusterion 2,239 35 12/08/03 09:20 PM
by Anonymous

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
3,371 topic views. 1 members, 1 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.041 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 16 queries.