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OfflineAldous
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2109497 - 11/15/03 06:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

C'mon man, admit it when you're out of answers... it would suit a harsh and respectable debater like you somewhat better.

How can you judge shamanism's ability to survive in the long run when history is far from over... or do you believe in Fukuyama?

And do you really believe shamanism is dead? Maybe the best adaptive answer for it was to duck for cover and stay put, let 'civilization' pretend it won, only to come back with a vengeance when the world would be more prepared to understand what it has to teach us. Admittedly, this hasn't happened yet, and maybe never will, but you must admit there's something of a revival there.
And yes indeed, the shamanistic societies are no longer, but I'm talking about shamanism itself, which was the subject of this thread.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Aldous]
    #2109619 - 11/15/03 07:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

In my book, the least shamanic societies, like empires (Rome, the US of A,...), are bound not only to fall, but to cause the demise of humanity in the very end.
You must be a shaman as you are making a prophecy. An argument based on how you see the future has no relevance in logical debate.

On the other hand, the 'most shamanic' societies may not be the most 'advanced' or comfortable to live in, but at least they leave their biotope unharmed for themselves and others.
False. Please give us a full report on sanitation in the places that you lived in. This fallacy is covered by the law of small numbers. Easter Islanders made their biotope almost completely unlivable long before any technology came along.

On the long run, I'd say shamanic societies are the most sustainable.
Your fantasy notwithstanding, history shows otherwise.

Like someone pointed out before me, shamanism HAS survived,
A modern interest on shamanism shows NOTHING about the efficacy of shamanic practices as a healing or divination tool.

but claiming it didn't survive is just a mistake.
*sigh* Another reading comprehension error.

To me, tripping very often should be influential enough to change cultures and worldviews...
And you base this sweeping assumption on what, precisely?




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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2109666 - 11/15/03 07:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

A modern interest on shamanism shows NOTHING about the efficacy of shamanic practices as a healing or divination tool.




Not true, there are scientists that are studying shamanistic brews for medicinal properties, to patent and sell their discoveries so that the tribes can make money. I watched a documentary on this.


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man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: pattern]
    #2109697 - 11/15/03 07:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Herbalism is a component of shamanism, but is not shamanism per se any more than a kick is Shaolin King Fu.

Reread my statement please :" Interest shows nothing...". Interest is a measurement of curiosity not utilitarianism. A high interest in astrology tells nothing of it's validity.




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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: pattern]
    #2109703 - 11/15/03 07:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

true, its in a scientific american article, but their progress is being slowed by governmental beuracracy.... Go Figure!


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What?


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2110070 - 11/15/03 10:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

My mistake, I misread your statement.  Needed a comma or something. :grin:


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2111039 - 11/16/03 09:17 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
On the long run, I'd say shamanic societies are the most sustainable.
Your fantasy notwithstanding, history shows otherwise.


Once again, let history decide for itself and don't call the outcome before it's over.
Also, I don't think it's just my fantasy. The Roman civilization lasted for about a good millennium, and collapsed out of overoptimistic military expansion. The USA has been around for a few centuries, and seems tempted to make a few similar mistakes. How long have precolumbian Amazonian societies lasted? I think it was longer than that.
Quote:

To me, tripping very often should be influential enough to change cultures and worldviews...
And you base this sweeping assumption on what, precisely?


On experience, for instance... I've tripped quite a lot myself, and it's had decisive influences on my life. Most of the other people around here would say exactly the same. That's for the worldview part. Many worldviews make a culture, or at least a subculture. You can't deny the influence of psychedelics on popular culture in the 60's. And psychedelics were just counterculture at the time. So I repeat, if tripping is a mainstream feature of any given culture, I'm very inclined to think this would have a decisive influence on it.

Admittedly, I can't prove this (that's why I used phrases as "to me" and "very inclined to think..."), it's simply experience and deduction. But then, if every time a chick tells you she loves you, you ask her to prove it, you're doomed to remain single, right Swami?    :wink: 


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Aldous]
    #2112358 - 11/16/03 08:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Question: Why did Shamanism Fail to protect a certain tribe from being conquered by another tribe?

I have thought out every aspect of this argument and completely acknowledge the question at hand. I have spent at least 3 hours contemplating my argument before placing it. This is not an emotional response. But a clearly thought out response.

Swami,

What kind of shamanism are you referring to? Curanderismo, Brujeria, African Voodo, Jewish Cabalism, Buddhist Tantricism, Shinto, Siberian/Inuit shamanism or just the ability to divine the future and know where ones enemy is? Or are you referring to the Europeans conquering the Amerindians? Your fallacy in this form of thinking is that you don?t understand your own question. Please, excuse my bluntness. I mean the Universal You not YOU. The question is so broad and misunderstood that no one has given you an answer. Well, I?ll try my best.

Here is the gist of what you are hypothesizing: Because one culture/race conquered another, and the conquered culture/race believed in shamans and those shamans failed to protect the conquered, shamanism is fraudulent. If this is referring to the Amerindian Cultures and its assimilation/annihilation by the European Cultures then this is my answer.

One, the conquering race, Europeans, did believe in shamanism/witchcraft. They believed it so much they stopped at nothing until they wiped it out as much as they could. Control cannot be had with free thinkers like shamans. They are not as easily persuaded to follow like sheep. Only a good sheep follows the Shepard. How could a good sheep make its own path? That must clearly be a bad sheep. Thinking done in the head of a Catholic of old. For fear of heretics is the driving force of the Catholic Priests or Prophets, they are the same.
Two, the Indian races were being conquered already by one another whilst building City-States Empires. For you to cognize the conquering of one over another and shamanism not being a part of the process is a fallacy in itself. I assure you shamanism was utilized to the fullest by the conquering and the conquered in these City-State-Empire Assimilation Conquests of the Americas. These City States used Shamanism to conquer neighboring tribes whose shamans were not as powerful as the city state shamans. When conquering the neighboring tribes they used different ?non-lethal? ways to bring back as many new slaves/citizens as possible.
Three, the Catholic Church knew about witchcraft and how to counteract the forces of such crafts. Here's an example of shamanism in the catholic service. When the priest waves around the burning incense or ashes that is for cleansing the church's ceremonial area, that is a form of shamanism or witchcraft, whichever you choose to call it. Why do you think the Catholics were so afraid of the Witches? Because the witches knew the truth and what the Catholics were spewing out to keep control and taxes flowing in is not the truth. I assure you there was more to the Bible than the King James Version. The Alter or Ceremonial Table is another form of shamanism. Catholics use an Alter so do shamans, huh, go figure. The Catholics knew how to counteract witchcraft, i.e. the blocking of seeing where your enemy is or the Blocking of the evil eye. This can be done by wearing a white ribbon on the left wrist. Look at Madonna next time you see her. She always has her protection on for the evil eye since she is in the spotlight. Out of the entire Native Populous less than one percent were shamans. Just like college graduates in the world today, they made up a small minority of the total population. Therefore only a few people in the world were/are shamans, whether they were Indian, European, black, red, yellow, blue, green or whatever had shamans in their nations and either utilized them for the good of the whole or denounced them as devils or frauds or praised them as Prophets suggests to me that shamanism has played a major role in shaping humanities social fabrics.
The ?Technologies? you mention like black powder were invented by shamans for shamanistic purposes, i.e. driving away evil spirits. With the knowledge of Roman tactics, witchcraft, black powder and diseases, Europeans were able to subdue the Amerindians City States with minimal numbers. To stay in power they had to commit religious warfare on the natives to keep the control and use misinformation to make them ignorant to the truths they were forgetting.

Lets start with the beginning. Shamanism is almost as old as man. Just because one can utilize ?supernatural? forces doesn?t mean they will use them in an ethical and beneficial manner. Look up the definitions of a Curandero, (healer) and a Brujo (sorcerer). The former uses power for healing the latter for hurting. For you to think that the American Indians were the only shamans is a major fallacy in its own right. The Catholic Church was as wicked a witch as there ever was. The wicked witch of the east. LOL. You see, you are not considering an issue. The Catholics had witches and wizards or ones that could ?see?, divine the future, and call upon the counsel of spirits or ?saints? of their own, as does the CIA today. The Catholic ?witches? knew as much as the ?native? shamans did, and more, i.e. gunpowder. We will get to that one here in a minute. They had been battling with European witchcraft for centuries and centuries. Before the Catholics, it was the Roman Shamans or soothsayers battling with the whole ?known? world for the one thing that man is always hungry for, POWER>. For you to suggest that because the Europeans conquered this land and stole it from the Indians means that shamanism is fraudulent is just not fair to the rest of the shamans in the world. LOLOLO. Man, Do you not think that it is remotely possible that European Shamans were battling with Native shamans for this land as well? It?s also probable that the European Shamans had more ?experience? in totally conquering a nation. They learned from the best, ROME>. As does the US>or as I like to call it ROME III. Rome the third. Or the Third Reich>Empire. That's what it all boils down to, POWER AND CONTROL. Who ever has the most powerful shamans/Evil rules the world. That is the foreshadowing to the CIA>

Let?s go back to ancient China. Black powder was invented to drive evil spirits/forces/entities out of the village every New Year as a way of cleansing the village of the evil that was dragged into it by everyday life. Would you not agree then that the invention of black powder is a form of shamanism? Then European Alchemist/wizards took the black powder and turned it into gunpowder via shamanism or through communion with spirits/forces/entities. In the ~700?s the city of Byzantium was being invaded by the Muslims. An Assyrian engineer came up with what is know as Greek Fire. It was a medieval flamethrower that would keep an invading navy at bay. And that's just what it did. The Greek Fire totally annihilated the Muslim Ships in the harbor. I?ll bet the house that the Assyrian Engineer utilized Syrian Rue as a Helper spirit in figuring out how to keep the Turks at bay. To this day they cannot replicate Greek Fire? With what the known ingredients were, they still don?t understand how it ignited upon contact with water. Truly, witchcraft or Alchemy? Some may call it Technology. But it?s not technology when someone receives the answers through spiritual contact rather than trial error and the scientific method, that?s shamanism. And through shamanism the same results or answers can be known as through modern technology. How far apart are they? One states a scientific method the other states the existence of ?supernatural? forces. They both exist simultaneously, IMHO>

Ancient American City State Empires, i.e. Aztec, Mayan, and Incan, were based and built with fear, witchcraft and power-lust just like the Roman, and Roman Catholic Empires were built. They were all built with the blood and bones of conquered surrounding peoples. Had the American City States had a few more centuries to develop and finish assimilating the surrounding peoples to Rome?s standards of civilization they might not have been so easy to conquer. They were conquered each one by some of the most cunning and unscrupulous men there ever where. The utilization of the neighboring tribes against the City States was one of the key factors of their success. You have to remember that the total conquistador numbers where in the thousands whilst the populous of the Americas were in the millions. They did not single handily conquer the Americas. They did it with Native Help. Just like in North America when the English had their Native Allies and the French had theirs and they managed to kill one another until some tribes vanished before the country gained its freedom from England.
The diseases and black powder were the other main factors. The diseases could not be dealt with by just administering a plant. Most were viruses and antibiotics will not cure a virus. No, the people that are here today who, like myself, are descendents of those ?conquered? peoples are the descendents of the few that were not killed by the diseases. The few that miraculously did not die were saved by shamanism. Other wise the diseases would have wiped us ALL out. And they did not thanks to shamanism Not a medicinal plant but true healing. I say that is enough right there to show that somehow the diseases didn?t kill all of us. Apparently, some of us survived or I wouldn?t be here.
Upon assimilation and total utilization of every known aspect of how to gain and keep power, these American City States had Brujos or evil shamans that used Datura for power. The City-State shamans were more powerful shamans than the ones that lived in the villages of the conquered neighboring tribes. Except for a few exceptions. The Caribs of Panama/ Costa Rica /Colombia were never conquered until Modern Times. Due to their ferocious reputations as headhunters and voodoo witch doctors that could shrink a head. Also, some tribes escaped even knowing about the Spanish invasion or white people until the twentieth century, secluded in the depths of the vast and almost never ending Amazon. I would say that those tribes of Amazonians that were "discovered" in the 1970's had Shamans who were very powerful and knowledgeable enough to disappear into the Amazon when the proverbial Shiite hit the fan.
When the first Conquistadors started to try to take over these city states they realized they needed local help, they had to use the help of the other tribes that the City states were assimilating into their own. Those neighboring tribes lost thousands or warriors trying to free themselves from one tyrant in place of another. Both the American City State and Rome had the same goals. Conquer and Control all that they could. Then After ?using? the neighboring tribes the Conquistadors pulled a classic power maneuver. Screw your partner over so you can have it all.
The way the Catholics conquered the peoples was through shamanism. Religious war. The Catholics first make it a crime punishable by damnation to practice your native Religion because it is devil worship. Do you think that the Catholic Church and its government didn?t know about witchcraft? I assure you they knew allot more than they let on about witchcraft, shamanism and how to counter act the forces of witchcraft or shamanism. Hell, they had been trying to get rid of ?heretics? since their beginning. If one is trying to ?see? where their enemy is, a ?block? can be placed to stop that person from ?seeing? their enemy if their enemy knows how to ?block? them from ?seeing? and is more powerful. YOU SEE> Just because one is a shaman doesn?t mean that they are the most powerful shaman. Just like athletes some are stronger than others.
The Catholics knew how to counteract the ?witchcraft? of the American City states. They knew how to counteract the witchcraft of the Old World and now they understand the witchcraft of the New World, isn't that right, NEO.lOL. I assure you that there are passages in the bible that are as powerful an incantation as the Mayan book of the dead. The Lords Prayer is a powerful protection incantation. If you don?t believe me say it the next time you are confronted with evil. So it all boils down to the conqueror having more ?power, knowledge, or shamanism? than the conquered. Not whether or not shamanism works because it did and does still today. It worked when it was used to conquer this land and it will be used to defend it as well.

What my final conclusion states is this.

The three main factors contributing to such an enormous and overwhelming conquering by the Europeans are Black Powder, Disease and a Knowledge of Witchcraft. The black powder is a form of shamanism or alchemy or witchcraft disguised as technology. Then when utilized as a weapon that witchcraft goes from being a useful tool in exorcizing evil to creating evil. Do you see the relationships. The black powder is a neutral power/force it knows no prejudice. When used for good it helps the village when used for evil it harms the village, yet when used for defense it saves the village. Just like the shamans powers when used for evil they harm when used for good they heal and protect. Those powers are as neutral as the black powder and ball they know no prejudice. The European conquistadors had in their possession the foreknowledge to counteract some but not all the powers that the native shamans possessed.
The diseases were mostly Viral infections which can't be treated with plants or antibiotics. They had to be "removed" and that takes a very powerful shaman. Not all Shamans can do everything. Some have certain skills in this and others in that. One is a healer the other a hurter. The diseases didn't kill all of us. Miraculously some of us survived. Or I wouldn't be here typing. Those of us were saved by shamanism. How could some of us survive from an invasion of diseases we had no immunities for. A miracle? No shamans.
The catholics knew about witchcraft/shamanism and also knew how to counteract those forces. Therefore, battles occured in this reality and other realities. Through, religous warfare the Catholic "shamans" defeated the city state shamans. Witchcraft when used for power is almost an undefeatable opponent. Unless you know how to counteract those powers, you will not survive.
These factors along with an adamant desire to control, are the reasons why the Amerindians lost this land to the Europeans. However, Not all was lost. Some native shamans were so powerful that they took their people into remote lands not to be discovered until centuries later, or not at all. I believe that the most powerful shamans lead their people through portals into another world that is in the same space as this world but is phased out of time slightly. Right now they are walking through us and we through them. I "saw" one the other day. And she looked fine, not like some conquered "fool" swami would like us to believe. But like a proud and noble woman, of Choctaw Blood.

The answer to your question is that shamanism did not fail. The Amerindians form of shamanism was not as powerful as European witchcraft when it came to Conquering Lands. The European Witches were more powerful Shamans when it came to POWERLUST>

OFF the subject but still pertains to the post:

CIA> When 9/11 went down and they showed us the Bin Laden Videos. He stated that one of their "holy" men (shamans) had a prophetic vision in a dream of fire and the two buildings going down two years before it happened. He told the man to keep quiet and not speak or think of it again as not to alert any one to their plans. Why. For Fear that his "holy" man would not be powerful enough to keep the knowledge inside his head and it would be extracted by US "shamans" hired by the CIA. I know it sounds crazy, take it any way you want. This is the way I see it going down. The US uses psychics/shamans/whatever you want to call them for intelligence purposes. And their enemies do too. The spy world is nothing compared to the battles that go on in other levels of this reality. I know. Sounds crazy, but so did going to the moon in the 20's. And so did sailing around the world without falling of the edge in the 1400's.



Medicinebag




Edited by medicinebag (11/16/03 08:52 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: medicinebag]
    #2112488 - 11/16/03 08:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Hau Kola

Nice post.


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2112557 - 11/16/03 09:06 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

We still have Shamans,but they're called "psychiatrists". And just like shamanism,some of what they say works,and some is a pile of shit.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: monoamine]
    #2112845 - 11/16/03 10:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The pile of shiite is spewed from Liars. Shamnanism doesn't mean that a person is an ethical person. Some shamans, Brujos, lie, steal, cheat and are only obsessed with power. Not healing. Those psychiatrists use substances that were discovered through shamanism to cure. Ie. MAOI's. Just becuase you are prescribed an MAOI or SSRI doesn't mean that it will cure your depression. The cure comes from an experiened shaman plus the powerplant. Not just from the powerplant and a dosage schedule from a phsych doc. When the docs prescribe antidepressants they are not exactly like the powerplants. Theyare weeker imho.

Medicinebag

On a similar note: If one has to take an anti-depressant every day of their lives where is the cure? I cured myself from manic depression with a single years session of High Doses of Psilocybin. When the docs prescribe SSRI's OR MAOI's the dosages are so low that the drug will never cure the patient. That is why they always have to up the dose after a few months or so. Becasue they never gave the proper dose to cure in the first place. Therefore, they are never cured only kept in a sick but not cured state, IMHO.


Edited by medicinebag (11/17/03 01:49 AM)


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: medicinebag]
    #2113694 - 11/17/03 01:04 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks, Mr. Mushrooms K+ back to you.

I don't speak lakota. The language I was taught is not spoken outloud to others. It is only used during cerimony and communion.

Medicinebag


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2113909 - 11/17/03 02:05 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

perhaps then the goal is not to become like the shamanisms, but integrate what good the shamans had into our world view.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #2114567 - 11/17/03 04:49 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I beieve my goal is to become exactly like the shamans as much as I possibly can. Hopefully, within the next five years I will be off the grid and my Inet posting days will be over. And my new life can begin. Living without "western" lies. Peace all.


Medicinebag


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OfflinePillar
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #8549164 - 06/22/08 01:29 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Oh well done!

Really? A dozen tangential and highly emotional issues were brought up that should have been in a new thread, while the core issue was danced over. Sorry to hear that you consider that good philosophical debate.

The fact remains that shamanic societies may have worked once upon a time, but fail miserably in today's world.
 





That was well put. Just as free market societies thrived before in the 1920's -1980's, Now there is no place for it.


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-----PILLAR-----
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Destruction is the purest form of Creation.


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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Pillar]
    #8550261 - 06/22/08 12:16 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Shamanic cultures only failed in the view of the modern world.  Shaman's act as a link to the spirit world, connecting tribes to nature, allowing them to live in harmony with nature.  In that aspect Shaman's have not failed at all.  I think that the Shaman's have it all right, we have lost our spiritual connection and this disconnect from nature is causing irreversible harm to our planet.  We have lost our real spiritual connections, and we need a new breed of Shaman's to restore it.


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"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Cannashroom]
    #8550269 - 06/22/08 12:20 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You don't need a shaman to be connected to nature. You need a truly logical mind. We are from the earth and return to it. This seems true. Don't shit where you sleep. Understand how fear motivates unskillful action.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #8553635 - 06/23/08 10:57 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by LunarEclipse

Reason for deletion: yuk



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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Cannashroom]
    #8553794 - 06/23/08 12:15 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Shamanic cultures only failed in the view of the modern world.  Shaman's act as a link to the spirit world, connecting tribes to nature, allowing them to live in harmony with nature.  In that aspect Shaman's have not failed at all.  I think that the Shaman's have it all right, we have lost our spiritual connection and this disconnect from nature is causing irreversible harm to our planet.  We have lost our real spiritual connections, and we need a new breed of Shaman's to restore it.




i have to say the true connections will never fade or go away theres a system of transmigration and communication of souls beyond these physical bodies. Its all about communion and union. Whats to say they higher forces didnt want the tribes that failed to the white man to fail. you talk about how they had high infant mortality rate why dont you really take a look at the western people. Whats to say that all of them werent just sacrifices to appease the gods for the long run I.E. now and the up comming future. 

Medicine men get their power from the gods or higher energies and let it be aliens(space invaders at times),ancestors,or currently living people on the other side of the world giving em a message. there is a balance pretty much and its being restored to one that suits everyone as one.

the hopi never had a problem with shit they had their prophecy of everyone joining and becoming one. no shit alot of people have to die alot of souls need to be put to rest and reformed in a new light.

there is what is right! and righteous always and there is whats not, sometimes whats right must go thru what appears to be wrong to stabilize and balance what was originally right and what was originally wrong. there really is no confusion ever unless your lieing to yourself or lieing to who your talking about cause your lieing to yourself which sometimes happens cause you dont know any better but, you will only not know better if you dont only seek righteousness


and as for the dont shit where you sleep, its more like dont cheat your wife or neightbor, cause you always gota shit where you sleep it just really depends how far away. suprising like plumbing is far grosser  then out houses cause all those shit particals stay in the air no matter how much you clean that shit at least with an out house that stuff its way more difusion into the air and you only gota visit for that moment and with proper ventalation that shit wont stink unless it drops out of you really stinky and from there on thats more of a diet thing. btw this shit paricles thing was on mythbusters the they put a tooth brush in the next room and it had shit matter on it but its not a harmful amount appearently its just there and shitty, but not shitty that for people to notice unless they do alot of tests to find out I.E. mythbusters people. Which is a burning example of modern culture Of stuck up people


btw theres more then one type of medicine man or shaman. some villages have both and one just does it for pretend while others dont and shit is not pretend at all



Medicine Man

Many distant miles away
Past the shores of ever dark
There stays a magic man
Who bears an evil mark
He helps all concerned
Those who come again return
Injecting lies while fires burn
The devil's heart
With angel's words
Have you wondered
What heaven's like?
He can show you in one night
Overwhelming with euphoric lift
To lure you to steal your gift

Intoxication
Seeping down to the bone
And there's no question
Where you have to go

Understand just take his hand
He's the medicine man

Once proud and fearless men
With desire in their eyes
Lost strong and fruitful lives
To self-indulgent ties
Their souls were dipped in venom
And put into a box
Then placed upon a crowded shelf
Where countless souls now rot
Have you ever wondered what hell's like?
He can take you there
Just one taste and you'll be back
And by the high you'll swear

Intoxication
Seeping down to the bone
And there's no question
Where you have to go

Understand just take his hand
He's the medicine man

It really depends if how far the adgenda of the medicine man goes into the future and what their true aim is you have shamans in south american treating cancer and other ones making a buck off tourists and ect.


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


Edited by thedudenj (06/23/08 01:01 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #8553961 - 06/23/08 01:14 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

Don't shit where you sleep.




What about pee?




Don't pee on your knee. (or into the wind)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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