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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7616953 - 11/09/07 11:38 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think anyone knows what Castaneda did when he was in Mexico...that is part of the appeal of his work, BUT my knowledge and experience with shamanism tells me he was dead on the mark in many respects. The concepts he promoted are the root basis of shamanic practice if you can manage to see past the toys and paraphernalia of the shaman and examine the core concepts. I am not really interested in his credibility, but his ideas.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7617129 - 11/10/07 12:43 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I'm basing my opinion regarding his credibility on the BBC documentary about him, which I admit is only one perspective, but a source with a rather good reputation. I can't remember the details, but someone actually figured out which village he went to in Mexico and talked to some elders there who remembered him, and they said that he came around every once in awhile, but that he would just stay in town to chase women around when the shamans and young men went out to do ceremonies.

It also talked about how he was an anthropology graduate student working on his thesis when he did all this stuff, as he mentioned in his book... but the culture he claimed to be learning from didn't have a lot of the concepts he talked about and they also didn't use drugs for thier shamanic practice.

Basically, he had a lot of access to field studies other people did on the subject and made up a composite fiction based on that. That's fine, but he passed it off as authentic work. That's my problem with him. It was damaging and disrespectful to spread false information about the Yaqui. After he became popular thousands upon thousands of Americans descended on Indigenous Mexican villages looking for a trip and that put a pretty big strain on those people. It also caused the authorities to crack down on traditional use of entheogens, heavily damaging the continuity of many traditions.

It's great if you can find valuable insight in his writing, but the fact that his work was completely inauthentic is important to remember. It shows pretty poor integrity on his part, and it makes me wary. Don't let me hold you back though, I'm not questioning the value of the influence he's had on you, just the implications of the way he went about representing himself.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7617180 - 11/10/07 01:10 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

When I pointed that out, my house was fire-bombed and a giant burning cactus was found in my yard. I need to learn of your special immunity.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7617237 - 11/10/07 01:39 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

:lol: Maybe it has something to do with your habit of being really cranky and inflammatory in your style of critique. My "special immunity" probably has something to do with constantly prefacing my critiques with "although your feelings are valid..." or "I see the appeal of this thing you're into..." It may be a holdover from my former fear of confrontation. :smirk:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7617251 - 11/10/07 01:44 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I certainly am not pretentious, but it might be more of a gender issue than diplomacy. Hue and Ice are tough hombres, but softies when it comes to dealing with females.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7617388 - 11/10/07 03:11 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I never said you were pretentious. A bit of a projection, perhaps? :monkeydance:

...and I don't need nobody to be soft on me for my gender. I dare any of y'all to try and break me! Come on, lay it on! :paladin: :waits:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7618277 - 11/10/07 01:09 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)


It's great if you can find valuable insight in his writing, but the fact that his work was completely inauthentic is important to remember. It shows pretty poor integrity on his part, and it makes me wary. Don't let me hold you back though, I'm not questioning the value of the influence he's had on you, just the implications of the way he went about representing himself.


For all the reasons you consider him inauthentic I consider him authentic. A true coyote IMO. (by the way have you every bothered to read his writings?) Of course you don't know if his work even in your amateur opinion is inauthentic because like most everyone else you never knew him and he remains somewhat of an enigma, not to mention the fact that you have no personal experience in Shamanism so you speak only as a pundit.

That's my problem with him.

I'm always glad when someone has a problem with a coyote.:thumbup: It reminds to stay on track with what I personally know.

It was damaging and disrespectful to spread false information about the Yaqui. After he became popular thousands upon thousands of Americans descended on Indigenous Mexican villages looking for a trip and that put a pretty big strain on those people. It also caused the authorities to crack down on traditional use of entheogens, heavily damaging the continuity of many traditions.


This all makes me chuckle. :lol: He damaged and disrespected some people who obviously then can't handle real life and are afraid of what other people say and believe. If that's true about them then they're just like the rest of the world and who gives a fuck. Poor Yaqui's.:hissyfit:

Carlos didn't tell anyone to descend on those people , so blame the idiots who did it and the Indians who didn't immediately run them off.:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/10/07 01:37 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7618362 - 11/10/07 01:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I am a Yaqui Doodle Dandy.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7618371 - 11/10/07 01:35 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I always suspected you were gay.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7618559 - 11/10/07 02:29 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

For all the reasons you consider him inauthentic I consider him authentic. A true coyote IMO. (by the way have you every bothered to read his writings?) Of course you don't know if his work even in your amateur opinion is inauthentic because like most everyone else you never knew him and he remains somewhat of an enigma, not to mention the fact that you have no personal experience in Shamanism so you speak only as a pundit.




Yes, I have bothered to read his books. It has been a few years, but I read and enjoyed a couple of his them. When I use the term 'authentic,' I am using it in the formal sense, in that his work was not authentic field work, as he claimed it to be. If, from the get go, he had admitted that he'd written a spectacular work of fiction then there'd be nothing to criticize. My point stands. And no, I have no personal experience with shamanism, but neither does anyone who reads Castaneda's book and tries to mimic the technique he outlines. I am again, and always will, use the word shaman according to it's correct, anthropological definition and not the generalized manner it is often used in pop culture. Following the insights one finds in Castaneda's work is all well and good, but it doesn't make you any more of a shaman, or any more experienced in shamanism, than the next guy. I find it terribly funny how many white folks who think they are engaging in shamanism have never exchanged one word with an indigenous person, and often carry terrible 'drunk indian' sterotypes with them.

Quote:


I'm always glad when someone has a problem with a coyote.:thumbup: It reminds to stay on track with what I personally know.




Coyote certainly is an interesting term for Castaneda. Coyote is a selfish, foolish, naive, troublemaking Trickster. His stories are always told to warn of the consequences of behaving as he does. Coyote was rather fond of tricking women into having sex with him... it appears Castaneda's adventures in Mexico were certainly on par with the role of Coyote.

Quote:


This all makes me chuckle. :lol: He damaged and disrespected some people who obviously then can't handle real life and are afraid of what other people say and believe. If that's true about them then they're just like the rest of the world and who gives a fuck. Poor Yaqui's.:hissyfit:

Carlos didn't tell anyone to descend on those people , so blame the idiots who did it and the Indians who didn't immediately run them off.:tongue:




To purposely spread disinformation and attribute it to a specific culture is problematic. It isn't an issue of being able to 'handle real life,' but rather an issue of suddenly having every bored teenager in America descend on them for drugs... when they didn't even use drugs to begin with. Who gives a fuck? Who gives a fuck about the fact that the world is becoming increasingly culturally homogenized and distinct cultures are being assaulted and assimilated at a break-neck rate. I dunno. I do. :shrug: Maybe Castaneda can't be blamed for the dipshits that descended on Mexico, but he can be blamed for misrepresenting himself and others. It shows an incredible lack of integrity.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7618634 - 11/10/07 02:48 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

If, from the get go, he had admitted that he'd written a spectacular work of fiction then there'd be nothing to criticize.

So a coyote is going to admit he's a coyote? Not how it works.

Personally Don Juan didn't refer to his knowledge as Shamanism. I really don't know what a shaman knows nor does anyone who isn't one. He might just be another third world stoner for all I know. Holy men and mystics have been in question in my mind for a long time.

I have had a conversation with an indigenous person before. I was hitchhiking from Yellowstone to Seattle and he picked me up in his semi. He then invited me to stay at his house and lift some weights and then took me out for a shrimp dinner. He seemed to believe being Indian was a drawback for him and his ancestors were savages. I politely set him straight.:lol:

but rather an issue of suddenly having every bored teenager in America descend on them for drugs..

Sorry but I don't think so.

Who gives a fuck? Who gives a fuck about the fact that the world is becoming increasingly culturally homogenized and distinct cultures are being assaulted and assimilated at a break-neck rate. I dunno. I do.

Well I don't. For me a human is a human and most wars seem to be about ethnic and territorial differences. If humanity ever realized the we are all indigenous to AFRICA then things might just go a little smoother.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7618699 - 11/10/07 03:03 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

So do you think that the solution to territorial and ethnic wars is to completely homogenize the world? Hmm. I don't know about you, but I'm really excited by diversity. It's wonderful to know that there are endless ways to interpret and understand life, and that people live in all sorts of ways. I think that human diversity is a strong argument for there being freedom - there are many living examples of different ways to live, the way we live is not "the way" but one way, and we can be inspired by the existence of different approaches. Cultural diversity has already been severely damaged by colonization and christian missionaries, and I shudder to imagine a world in which everyone drinks pepsi, works in an office and watches television.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7618747 - 11/10/07 03:14 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

You assume (I'm guessing from your post) that I want to impose American/European culture on the whole world. Not even close.

And yes I am saying that cultural diversity is the cause of most of the nastiness in our human world as far as war, famine, degradation of environment and religious fundamentalism goes.

If we as humans were smart we would look at all the cultures and pick out what seems to support our collective goals and then create one big fucking tribe.

If we don't then I believe we are dooooooooooomed.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/10/07 03:15 PM)


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7618769 - 11/10/07 03:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Do you think that perhaps the concept of shaman has evolved from its traditional role in Siberia?

What if the term entheogenic was only applicable to the traditional plants that were used for sacrament? Could LSD be considered entheogenic? Of course it isn't recognized by culture or society as such, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. If you look at one of my previous posts, you can find the roots of the word shaman. The current records indicate that the word shaman finds its roots in many different cultures, fundamentally stemming from the Sanskrit word for Buddhist aesthetic. Etymology for shaman

Of course anything that is going to be called sacramental or religious is going to carry some cultural baggage, but what something definably is, is its function and relationships with reality, and most particularly mankind. Perhaps your right in this sense, I'm not sure exactly what a shaman's or medicine man's function is. So why exactly are you asserting that this relationship can't exist in modern culture? Being white or indigenous is only correlated with man's place in nature/culture. Not all white people listen to bad rap, eat unhealthy, and eventually end up being doctors or lawyers....


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7618883 - 11/10/07 03:43 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

If we wanted to be real shaman (and shawoman) we would be drinking Amanita-laced reindeer piss instead of orange juice/cubensis smoothies.


--------------------


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7618934 - 11/10/07 03:54 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You assume (I'm guessing from your post) that I want to impose American/European culture on the whole world. Not even close.

And yes I am saying that cultural diversity is the cause of most of the nastiness in our human world as far as war, famine, degradation of environment and religious fundamentalism goes.

If we as humans were smart we would look at all the cultures and pick out what seems to support our collective goals and then create one big fucking tribe.

If we don't then I believe we are dooooooooooomed.




I'm not assuming that you want to impose a Euro-American culture on the world, but in reality this is what is happening. It is the dominant culture, and it imposes it's values everywhere it goes, whether intentionally or accidentally.

I don't think that cultural diversity is to blame for these problems. I think that there are other culprits, including nationalism and religious fundamentalism. Dominant powers (like the US) have foreign policies that cause trouble all over the world, and instigate violence and warfare. Cultural homogenization inevitably results in the imposition of the values of the dominant culture. For sheer force of numbers, or due to economic clout.

The thing about your vision for the future is that never in a million years are you gonna get everyone on earth to agree what values support our collective goals. People always have and always will have different goals and different concepts of what defines a good life. There are many people who's most pressing goal is to not be assimilated, to not lose touch with thier traditional culture. Or to decolonize and rediscover thier heritage. I strongly support this.

I take more of a live and let live attitude. I also think that we'd be better off decentralizing power, so that smaller communities had more control over thier daily lives. Regional and affinity based groups can make autonomous decisions, but get together with each other to talk about mutual goals and needs and how they can support each other. The Iroquois Confederacy is a pretty rad example for how enemies can get together and have a really free and democratic relationship with each other.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619252 - 11/10/07 05:26 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Coyote is a selfish, foolish, naive, troublemaking Trickster.



:oogle:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619302 - 11/10/07 05:41 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

including nationalism and religious fundamentalism.

Well now thanks for making my point. It's just that some cultures have been a little more successful with this takeover. Every culture calls themselves "the human beings" and all have gone to war over territory, religion or race.

I also think that we'd be better off decentralizing power,

and you say my views will never happen in a million years.:lol: But I'm not saying my views are realistic for humanity, I'm just saying I believe they are the only ones that would save it.:monkeydance:

The Iroquois Confederacy is a pretty rad example for how enemies can get together and have a really free and democratic relationship with each other.


I'm not so sure the Iroquois were peaceful neighbors to surrounding tribes.  I'm not sure but didn't they pretty much exterminate the Huron? Weren't they also experts at torture?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMyOwnReality
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Re: Shamanism [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7619339 - 11/10/07 05:50 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

The role of the shaman is many, one may act as a healer, a clown, a master of ceremonies, a spiritual leader, and most importantly a go between for the different realms. The shaman is the first to the ceremony and the last to leave. He or she must communicate with the the other than human beings and act as a representative for humanity to the wrest of the world.

My personal goal for this humanity: to start moving off the planet and planting the seeds of life else where in the universe. We have the ability to serve as a vector for the life force of this planet to move and grow elsewhere. Like the mycologist with his syringes, we have the ability to spread the life from medium to medium, innoculating the universe for infinity to come.

I feel we are at a point where one of three things is going to happen: We are going to completely destroy ourselves as a race, we are going to work towards ascention / interplanetary and stellar travel, or we are going to decide that all of this work and technology really just complicates things and voids us of true happiness and we will revert back to our terrestrial nomadic roots, though maby with some added technology. Personally i like the second option, it seems like the most interesting to me.

I have recieved permission from mushrooms to speak on his behalf(mushrooms is a he by the way). Yes, plants and animals do have conciousness, but it is different from that which humans are use to. Plants tend to be less emotive, and of a higher nature. In general the species mind is much stronger among members of the plant kingdom, and in some members of the animal kingdom. Plants and animals have voice as well, but they don't speak unless one learns how to listen.

Now I must sleep.
-MOR


--------------------
www.youtube.com/morstories


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: MyOwnReality]
    #7619349 - 11/10/07 05:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I have recieved permission from mushrooms to speak

You talkin about those little white ones from the grocery store? :crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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