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Why did Shamanism fail?
    #2096591 -

If Shamanism puts us in touch with the Overmind or our Ancestors or the Ground of Being, and can be used for healing and divining (finding food, seeing future enemy attacks) why have almost all shamanic socities failed miserably when it comes to basic survival against technological advancement?

(Please don't tell me it is holier to die or become extinct as a tribe!)


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2096695 -

Making up for lost time with all these posts, huh?


On topic: I have wondered the same thing.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2096751 -

Quote:
If Shamanism puts us in touch with the Overmind or our Ancestors or the Ground of Being, and can be used for healing and divining (finding food, seeing future enemy attacks) why have almost all shamanic socities failed miserably when it comes to basic survival against technological advancement?
 


IMHO for many of the same reasons cancer triumphs over healthy tissue.
WR:rasta: 


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To old for this place

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2096761 -

the Indians were doing just fine until the Europeans wiped them out.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2096788 -

Maybe there is a reason it's called shamanism.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2096808 -

the Indians were doing just fine
Many starving in the winter, tribes attacking other tribes, high infant mortality - these things are "doing just fine"?

until the Europeans wiped them out.
Showing that their Medicine Men were unable to protect them; so perhaps their Ancestors had no power.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2096922 -

the Indians were doing just fine until the Europeans wiped them out.

at the time, they were already becoming more integrated and advanced, and in a great many places were no longer the hunter-gatherer-one-with-nature utopia that pop-education on the subject has led many of us to believe.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2096938 -

> Showing that their Medicine Men were unable to protect them

The indians were given blankets that carried the smallpox virus, something which had never been seen in Americas before. Just like modern day doctors have trouble when a new disease appears, I would expect the medicine men to fail as well. Weak argument.

The medicine men did just fine with the normal day-to-day type of illnesses that they had at the time. Modern medicine still goes out into the rain forests looking for new drugs that the shamans have been using for generations.

History is written by the victors. There is no way of knowing for sure how good or bad life was for the indians before we screwed them.

But since we are on the subject, lets look at what our modern technological marvels have given us... SARS, aids, mad cow disease, alzheimers, cancer, smog, global warming, etc...

I don't know about you, but I will take the starving in winter, tribal attacks, high infant mortality, etc over out modern day plagues any day of the week.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Seuss]
    #2097039 -

Oh well done!

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: ]
    #2097239 -

I would say it's cos the shamans were wrong and none of it worked

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: SoHei]
    #2097334 -

yea, what do you mean?


I consider the american society pretty advanced....but successful?

One in every two people get cancer at some time in their life in Georgia. Its similiar statistics in all states, the least cases being 1 in 4 people, I believe.

This is a very sick and uhealthy society, so tell me - how our OUR medicine men any better?

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #2097434 -

Quote:
One in every two people get cancer at some time in their life in Georgia. Its similiar statistics in all states, the least cases being 1 in 4 people, I believe.

This is a very sick and uhealthy society, so tell me - how our OUR medicine men any better?



Our medicine are much better! But we also smoke, drink, live with 6 billion people, etc. 100 years ago you would probably die before the age of 50. We extended our lifes with more than 25years in 100years. I think that's amazing. Cancer is not always deadly, HIV isn't deadly at all for western people. We can transplant organs, we can create organs in the near future. We can heal nearly every disease. I can't imagine how you can think that our medicine(men) are not better than the medicine(men) of/or shamans.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Annom]
    #2097499 -

^^ Yes, it should also be considered that in earlier times many people died of other causes before succumbing to cancer or heart disease. Also, many more causes of death went undetermined or they may have just been attributed to old age.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2097552 -

... and if you believe the OT, people way back when used to live 600 to 900 years...


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Seuss]
    #2097568 -

That's a pretty big "IF." Maybe the world spun around a helluva lot faster in the OT as well.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Seuss]
    #2097648 -

The indians were given blankets that carried the smallpox virus, something which had never been seen in Americas before. Just like modern day doctors have trouble when a new disease appears, I would expect the medicine men to fail as well. Weak argument.
Weak argument by you. I did not mention smallpox. Apparently the Medicine Men who were exposed to high infant mortality for eons were unable to affect any cure. Hardly new.

History is written by the victors. There is no way of knowing for sure how good or bad life was
No mention of good or bad, just that shamaism was INEFFECTUAL for providing for the survival of the tribe.

...for the indians before we screwed them.
Not me, Kimosabe.

But since we are on the subject, lets look at what our modern technological marvels have given us... SARS, aids, mad cow disease, alzheimers, cancer, smog, global warming, etc...
Quite a tangential rant you go on here. The FACT of the matter is the the least shamanic societies (like the USA) are enormously successful in survival.

I don't know about you, but I will take the starving in winter, tribal attacks, high infant mortality, etc over out modern day plagues any day of the week.
Yeah, right. Please sell your car, TV, computer, microwave; turn off your hot water; etc. If you were willing (and not just spewing) you would already have "returned to the land".



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: ]
    #2097668 -

Oh well done!

Really? A dozen tangential and highly emotional issues were brought up that should have been in a new thread, while the core issue was danced over. Sorry to hear that you consider that good philosophical debate.

The fact remains that shamanic societies may have worked once upon a time, but fail miserably in today's world.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2097723 -

> Yeah, right. Please sell your car, TV, computer, microwave; turn off your hot water; etc. If you were willing (and not just spewing) you would already have "returned to the land".

I don't have a TV, phone, or even a postal mail address... *shrug*


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Seuss]
    #2097834 -

When faced with the civilized war machine how could anyone survive? Civilization uses a lot of tactics to enfold the primitive into it's machine. Shamanism is hardly a failure when considering the kind of fight primitive people have and still continue to put up against the civilized. A spiritual practice is not a shield against a non spiritual threat.

As far as the health of primitive people's is concerned, they were far healthier than the average member of civilization. They ate are more varied, natural diet from nutrient rich soils, and the developed thier healing traditions over long periods of time. Superbugs didn't pop out of nowhere like they do now. Civilization is the sole cause of the majority of our harshest illnesses (mental illness included.)

Of course primitive societies fail, for the mos part, in today's world. Today's world is setup in such a way that it's impossible to become primitive again, or to remain so if you were in the first place. Civilization allows no room for anything but itself. In the name of "economic progress" we are currently in the process of destroying yet more primitive cultures all over the world, namely the Amazon right now. We break treaties and start using land we previously admitted was never our own.

Civilization is not easy to stand up against, in fact it's damn near impossible but yet people still do it. The fact that there are people putting everything they have into staying primitive and not allowing civilization to tear thier culture to nothing speaks volumes. I think we owe it to those primitive cultures to stand in solidarity with them and do what we can to make thier struggle to survive easier.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2097908 -

Quote:
Swami said:
If Shamanism puts us in touch with the Overmind or our Ancestors or the Ground of Being, and can be used for healing and divining (finding food, seeing future enemy attacks) why have almost all shamanic socities failed miserably when it comes to basic survival against technological advancement?
 


Your question is misleading; but its tricky.. it took rereading it just rigth to understand that you have made basic assumtions about the dominator culture witch are simply wrong...
Shamans havent been drastically reduced through technological "advancement". To me, advancement would be living in harmony with  everything including technology. What we are talking about when we discuss why shamanistic cultures have been almost completely wiped out has nothing to do with advancement and everything to do with the phallic-worshipping dominators ripping at the heat of the goddesses of nature and spititual health and well-being.

my question to you is how you can possibly consider the wiping out and racial and cultural assimilation of our ancient ways as "advancement". :rolleyes:


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2097935 -

"It has become appallingly clear that our technology has surpassed
our humanity." - Albert Einstein


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2097997 -

Why did Shamanism fail?

when was it decided that shamanism has failed and who made that decision? shamanistic cultures may have been greatly overshadowed by other cultures, but that doesn't mean shamanism has failed. shamanism works for some people, but not for everyone. the same can be said for all religions and cultures.

why have almost all shamanic socities failed miserably when it comes to basic survival against technological advancement?

what kind of technological advancements are you referring to? shamanism was around before modern technology. shamans were/are responsible for the healing advancements of thier time. some of modern "technology" has evolved from shamanic practices. shamanism has probably adapted to modern technology as well.

the role of the shaman has been removed from many societies and the responsibilities and power has been distributed among multiple individuals.


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Anno cock? Is that some kind of Greek liquer? -Geo's all-knowing sex slave
Scat's way better than mud cause it's warm. -Ythan 4/23/07

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2098003 -

Swami said:
But since we are on the subject, lets look at what our modern technological marvels have given us... SARS, aids, mad cow disease, alzheimers, cancer, smog, global warming, etc...
Quite a tangential rant you go on here. The FACT of the matter is the the least shamanic societies (like the USA) are enormously successful in survival.




Hardly tangential, his point is a direct counterpoint to yours when measuring the "success" of your culture. Has our culture taught us to live better than the natives? Where were their prisons, nursing homes, bankrupt school systems, etc? Surely they didn't survive well during the onslaught of western diseases but neither did the Western culture during the Spanish Flu that killed between 20 to 40 million people world wide before it finally dissipated on its own without a cure. This was during the 20th century!

And if you are measuring "success" in terms of survival when one culture dominates and destroys another I suggest you get a new yardstick. That is, of course, unless you think that might makes right.

I think you are conflating Shamanism with Supermanism. I don't think anyone would argue that the Western culture is more technologically advanced but that doesn't mean that Shamanism was a effective tool for waging war. Hell, they warred with each other and someone had to lose.

Let me dispose of two myths here. First, many shamans didn't practice healing until disease came. There is a body of evidence that shows they didn't begin to use plants for healing until the white man came and brought disease with him.

Second, the idea that the average lifespan has dramatically improved over the years thanks to modern medicine is also false. People lived a lot longer than we commonly assume.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: ]
    #2098016 -

And by the way, before Westerners start bragging about their putative "success" let's give it a little time, shall we? The natives were on these continents for at least 20,000 years.

Let's see how long you last.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2098075 -

Swami said:
If Shamanism puts us in touch with the Overmind or our Ancestors or the Ground of Being, and can be used for healing and divining (finding food, seeing future enemy attacks) why have almost all shamanic socities failed miserably when it comes to basic survival against technological advancement?


First you assume that being "in touch with the Overmind etc" would give some advantage over technological advancement. There is no reason to assume that.

Secondly, shamanism is very old, eventually a new belief system will replace it.  Evolution.  Shamanistic societies were great in their day.  Do you have no respect for history?  :rolleyes: 


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: ]
    #2098091 -

mr.mushrooms.. exactly

and swami you call the US succesfull it has not been here that long.most "technologicly advanced" cultures wouldnt last that long in the amazon unless they tore it down and paved it with cement. and this they call advanced they are all a bunch of Inspector Gadget's. thats all it is stupid gadgets.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: buckwheat]
    #2098251 -

Are we talking about shamanistic culture as of NOW ?

I dont know about you guys but have you talked to many 'native americans'  or other people from shamanistic cultures ? I havn't talked to many but the ones that I have or know someone who knows them they arnt too happy. Alot aspire in one way or another to be more 'modern'. Right now some of those poor ass jungle dwellers arnt the happiest in the world while we plow down their villages... or those shamans in upper canada (i think ontario) that beg us for 'fire water' or for us to fuck their women for money.

Just playing a little devils advocate  :devil:.. i hope some of that made sense 

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2098328 -

well what about better technology?? what could arrows do against gun powder? the reason I say this is because we took the land away from many of the natives, and the weapons had a lot to do with.


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2098380 -

Why couldn't they use their shamanistic powers to put a hex on the invaders or get plans to build better weapons or armour from the spirit world? How come they couldn't foresee the smallpox infected blankets?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: ]
    #2098449 -

And by the way, before Westerners start bragging about their putative "success" let's give it a little time, shall we? The natives were on these continents for at least 20,000 years.

Let's see how long you last.

Right on.


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2098475 -

I don't know where you get your info but the native's in upper Canada Huron/Iroquois were a stones throw away from completely destroying Detroit, and most settlements in the area.. If the French didn't give up the war they would have succeeded in wiping out our ancester's which would of had a huge effect on how the evolution of the northeast evolved.. It's basicaly pure luck they didn't succeed..

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Bhairabas]
    #2098482 -

But they DIDN'T.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2098525 -

Quote:
Swami said:
If Shamanism puts us in touch with the Overmind or our Ancestors or the Ground of Being, and can be used for healing and divining (finding food, seeing future enemy attacks) why have almost all shamanic socities failed miserably when it comes to basic survival against technological advancement?




Survival against what technological advancements? You mean like when we plow down their rainforest? Or when we shoot neutron bombs at them?

Either way you are looking at it from the WRONG angle. If domination of another culture is what is considered advancement in today's society, then we definitely need a change.

Just because they might have been able to forsee a future attack, does not mean they could adequetely defend themselves against forces much more overwhelming. Having the ability to heal minor bodily mishaps with herbs and other natural methods does not mean they can ressurect someone from the dead.

They survived in the wilderness with little but what the "Overmind" gave them. The Europeans could barely survive through a winter in the new world without resorting to cannibalism. All of a sudden we have technology and weapons of destruction, and we are the dominant ones? Think again. If anything, we could learn from them.

Why continue the plight of our technology age by justifying negative and harmful technologies.. when we could be bettering both our society and the shamanistic ones, by creating technology that is harmonious to the environment, and would help everyone? Because that's not the American Dream right? You must dominate and destroy, not help and nourish to grow and evolve.
Well that age is over and done with. Soon the "reality" will be forced back onto the people of Earth, and we will see, the Shamanistic people had it right the first time.

Shamanism did not fail. Human judgement failed.


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2098665 -

Quote:
Many starving in the winter, tribes attacking other tribes, high infant mortality - these things are "doing just fine"?


well, I suppose that depends on what standards you use. Sure, the Indians had hardships, just like everyone else. But I don't believe that any of the pre-European hardships they faced were threatening to wipe out their entire society and culture.

My point is that Shamanism is not self defeating- it takes an outside influence to destroy a shamanistic society. I guess the question you have to ask yourself there is whether the Indians themselves were responsible for not being able to defend themselves, or is it the Europeans' fault for committing the various atrocities and thefts that they did.

I mean, we are currently pretty capable of taking care of ourselves (world problems aside) as it is right now, but some highly advanced alien race could take us out with superior technology. Would that be our fault or theirs?

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2098752 -

And I bet they kick themselves everyday..

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: buckwheat]
    #2099016 -

and this they call advanced they are all a bunch of Inspector Gadget's. thats all it is stupid gadgets.

Yet, YOU are using those gadgets that you decry to transmit your opinion - no hypocrisy there.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: eric_the_red]
    #2099036 -

when was it decided that shamanism has failed and who made that decision?
IT was decided when shamans failed to protect the tribe - simple as that.

shamanistic cultures may have been greatly overshadowed by other cultures, but that doesn't mean shamanism has failed.
I guess NO SURVIVAL equals a smashing success in your mind.

shamanism works for some people, but not for everyone.
Yes, it worked for duping the tribesmen, but not the invaders who did NOT believe.

what kind of technological advancements are you referring to?
(I love it when they play dumb!) A piece of iron tubing and a lead ball apparently is more powerful than the Overmind. How can one defend the power of a seer who cannot "see"? "Well, they could see minor stuff, but nothing life-threatening..."





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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (11/12/03 09:01 PM)

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099037 -

It isn't hypocritical to use a piece of technology while still recognizing that the culture that created it isn't superior to cultures that didn't invent such things. It would be hypocritical if they said it was *wrong* to create or use technologies but they didn't.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099135 -

In your argument i saw that in order to make your position true you posed the question that was leading..in that you think that All shamanism falls under one category, and that nothing of it is true, and that because of their ignorance they have died out, rendering their whole system of knowledge meaningless..

* Uh... Honor... is He Leading the witness?"

this seems like a leading question... and im probably re stating what a lot of what other people have already said. Shamanism didnt require conquest, its point was to live in harmony with the land and use it to aid in the development of their peoples. Who are we to say what it was good and wasnt good for, seeing as how we are not in that time period, and we know little of what knowledge they possesed in relation to healing/taking care of people? Cultures in europe were very much interested in conquest, and cared little if at all for other peoples beliefs, they at most wanted land and gold.

You have to realize that beliefs are just beliefs, and that their culture and belief system for shamanism is like anything else, it changes and it discovers new things. To my understanding on your position , You believe that they are full of crap, and that if they had been in touch for what they supposedly call "over mind", they could tell it what to do and it would save them. Okay sure, i agree with you on the point that it didnt work, and therefor must not be applicable, IN THAT CASE. But to deny the possibilities of the "powers"/knowledge they DID have is to assume more than is possible.

Many architects today and within recent history have believed that they are doing the best to fit the needs which they are building for, (imo if they wish to call themselves an architect). They build for the interests of the people they are contracted to build for. Maybe this is altruistic or whatever you want to call it, but if architects were really interested in building for efficency, they sure would build like it. Im getting to the point.... So if they build these buildings that are ineffecient and only serves as a means to produce more for the economy and those that only serve for their own needs, does that necessarily mean that it is good for everyone and everything over all?

IMHO, NO. So if these shamans are really trying to help out with building naturally, and if this natural means serves to over all help the society in which they are a part of live with the land, wouldnt that be a good thing?

While in europe disease was ravaging many places, peopel dying everywhere, going into churches where they thought they would be safe, but only spread the disease. While they continued to build and create things which they thought were more efficient.

Look at our world today, go out into any city, and just stare. Stare around, and breathe the nice smoggy air, let it fill your lungs, go sit inside a nice greasy restauraunt and let the oils float through your skin. You live in vegas right?... look at the signs... look at the people.. just sit and watch... and watch some more... Then drive out of the city. Breathe in... and what... what is that... Fresh Air? That which sustains our life and gives us breath... yes... The shamans had realized this planet was key to ensuring their own survival.. they lived WITH IT not against it.

You can decide for yourself which route would be better. But i think its pretty weak argument to assume that because of our technology, that that necessitates a better life style, or that we will be saved from the savage unpredictable world!

And sure you may make the argument that without these certain events and the europeans interest in technological advancement we would not be here right now holding this discussion. But does that necessarily mean that shamanism is obsolete?


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What?

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2099219 -

Ask Kali


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...or something






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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2099411 -

Shamanism didnt require conquest, its point was to live in harmony with the land and use it to aid in the development of their peoples.
Pardon, but your ignorance is showing. Shamanism (and it's sub-branch of sorcery) was used for divination (seeing the future - as in enemy attacks) and for killing one's enemy. Is that "harmonious" living with neighboring tribes?

Who are we to say what it was good and wasnt good for, seeing as how we are not in that time period,
Never mentioned "good" once Mr. Strawman; only present-day survival. Try to stay on track.

Cultures in europe were very much interested in conquest, and cared little if at all for other peoples beliefs, they at most wanted land and gold.
So what?

To my understanding on your position , You believe that they are full of crap, and that if they had been in touch for what they supposedly call "over mind", they could tell it what to do and it would save them.
Even though each shamanic culture was different, that essentially was THEIR CLAIM, not mine - and is proved to be pathetic in the face of real physical power.

But to deny the possibilities of the "powers"/knowledge they DID have is to assume more than is possible.
The "proof is in the pudding" as the saying goes.

Many architects today and within recent history have believed that they
They build for the interests of the people they are contracted to build for. Maybe this is altruistic or whatever you want to call it, but if architects were really interested in building for efficency, they sure would build like it. Im getting to the point.... So if they build these buildings that are ineffecient and only serves as a means to produce more for the economy and those that only serve for their own needs, does that necessarily mean that it is good for everyone and everything over all?
Huh?

Look at our world today, go out into any city, and just stare. Stare around, and breathe the nice smoggy air, let it fill your lungs, go sit inside a nice greasy restauraunt and let the oils float through your skin. You live in vegas right?... look at the signs... look at the people.. just sit and watch... and watch some more...
Relevance? Because Vegas is a city of excess means that shamans were successful?

The shamans had realized this planet was key to ensuring their own survival.. they lived WITH IT not against it.
It was not higher spirituality, but fewer numbers that kept the land relatively unpolluted. India is considered a holy country, but is a cesspool.

But i think its pretty weak argument to assume that because of our technology, that that necessitates a better life style,
I think it is incredibly weak reading comprehension to assume things that I did NOT say.

And sure you may make the argument that without these certain events and the europeans interest in technological advancement we would not be here right now holding this discussion. But does that necessarily mean that shamanism is obsolete?
The shaman DID NOT protect the tribe into the modern era. That would seem to relegate him to obsolescence for that major function, now would it not?

Editor's note: Very few, if any, responses were free from overt emotionalism and going completely astray. Where is the self-control? Have we learned nothing?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099450 -

"The shaman DID NOT protect the tribe into the modern era. That would seem to relegate him to obsolescence for that major function, now would it not?
"

U missed the point man, the shamans werent some suprnatural all healing god that could protect the tribe forever. They were healers of nature, using meditations and herbs and the spirit for healing, something that the humans of today have Long forsaken. And besides, shamanism was just a practice, like todays religions and martial arts. You act like it was suposed to save thier primative society from our booming cannons of waste and disease along with it a cloud of global destruction, fullfilling the ancient prophocies for the end of time, which is 2012

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2099461 -

Oi Vey!


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099605 -

truekimbo2 said:
i would like to point out that nearly every civilization on earth had some form of magic/shamanism. yes even europe, yes even the christians.

not only ARE there poeple with superpowers, who can do things you prefer not to even dream of, but there have always been and always will be until the end.

no civilization is more or less advanced magically or energetically speaking, but its all about individuals who actually dare to aspire. and if every now and again something they find gets passed into the culture so be it.


as far as healing goes i know a jewish kid that walks around new york with a sign offering his services for free that taught himself to heal energetically. no acupuncture or anything. they made a documentary about him, i can't remeber what its called. he's cured cancer, he's like early 20's. he makes cuts and aches go away instantly.





Swami, in regards to what you mention, or skirt, of what Shaman's abilities were back in the ancient times and so on... My Theory

here's an excerpt:

Shroomism said:
I think that it far surpasses our current western medical understanding of human anatomy and healing. And considering they had this thousands of years ago, that's a pretty big statement.





Exactly...and thats what I'm questioning and trying to analyze here... how, why, what, where, HOW did it all start? Did it start from basic instinctiod urges that we all naturally have towards progression of health and betterment of ourselves? Or simply just started as an idea, with the minds of that specific era, that time where mind's were almost like brand new blank computers waiting to be programmed with information via experiences, minds that were not really restricted with education of laws of science, nature, and physics, etc... it seems like while the west of the world leaned more towards scientific methods of approaches...the eastern parts of the world leaned towards more inner spiritual approaches towards healing, which, in itself, could be considered a type of science, the west got more into medicine, man-made medicine, chemicals, etc...while the easterners stayed with more natural, alternative, mental, herbal, spirititual, etc approaches towards medicine, as a matter of fact, if you open up most Alternative Medicine books, most of those are derived from Ancient Asian cultural methods, etc...but thousands of years ago... those people had no formal education that restricts imagination like it does to most people TODAY..we all "know" too well about what we CANT do..rather than what we CAN do.... Thousands of years ago, People's minds had the "freedom" to believe as strongly as we do about gravity, about sticking needles in their body and eatin hallucinogenic cactii and chantin with incense, curing illnesses and diseases...so, of course, today you wont see many people being able to cure and heal with pure thought alone...BUT it has been documented before...telekenisis is another example of the power, of the mind...so is it so inconcievable that if one can defy the "laws" of gravity or common sense, or logic, as far as being able to bend spoons with pure mental-willpower, that one could just as easily be able to heal with thought? Tibetan Monks have been known to heat wet sheets on their body, simply by concentrating their mind on making their body radiate heat...Just imagine what else they can do, with THE POWER OF THEIR MINDS...So, was it pure imagination that sparked the IDEA that putting needles in your body would cure certain illnesses...or was it something innate, something instinctiod? or was it some form of higher power pushing them in the right directions, hinting them via subconscious levels? I've known quite a few people who strongly believe that the subconscious mind KNOWS ALL....It not only knows where the fuck your keys are...but it knows that theres somebody looking at you, right now, behind you..and that theres a spider in the left corner of the ceiling...But, because we all ignore this innate, natural, "talent" that we're born with, from day one...most of us aren't honed into it enough to develop it fully, but, some are luckier than us...but I do know that there WAS a lot MORE "Luckier" people back then...namely Shamans..


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2099621 -

So, was it pure imagination that sparked the IDEA that putting needles in your body would cure certain illnesses...or was it something innate, something instinctiod?

I have had several sessions with an acclaimed accupuncturist with ZERO relief.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2099629 -

BUT it has been documented before...telekenisis is another example of the power, of the mind... as far as being able to bend spoons with pure mental-willpower, that one could just as easily be able to heal with thought?

Oh, Jesus! Another rube taken in by Uri Geller's stage magic. Puh-lease! As the first part of your statement is fallacious, your collorary does not follow.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099730 -

Swami said:
I have had several sessions with an acclaimed accupuncturist with ZERO relief.


That's just YOU. What about all those all folks who have experienced it and benefited from it and actually did heal from it?
Could it just be that you were too skeptical-minded? Maybe simply because you didnt truly BELIEVE that it would work, that you didn't benefit from it.


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2099828 -

Could it just be that you were too skeptical-minded? Maybe simply because you didnt truly BELIEVE that it would work, that you didn't benefit from it.

Of course you are making the typical false assumption. I went ACTUALLY hoping (and spending my own hard-earned money) for pain relief. Naturally, when no relief was noted, it must have been my "fault".

So you are saying that the modality is irrelevant? If so, then why not say that "belief" works rather than stimulating meridians works?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099875 -

What exactly did you get acupuncture for?

I know many that have reaped the benefits of acupuncture, myself included. It is certainly not a cure-all, but it can do wonders for improving many things. Also, a proper acupuncturist will recommend certain herbs and certain exercises as a supplement to the acupuncture, for full healing effects.


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099898 -

by saying how I believe that much of our "reality" is deeply rooted in the power of our mind, that IS basically what I'm saying, that "Belief" works, rather than stimulating meridians, or, at least, has a dramatic effect on it....it would depend on the mental conditioning of the person in question.
The bottom line I'm getting to, is with the theory of how much of our reality is "Bent" and "Shaped" and controlled by the power of our minds, how strongly we believe in this and that, etc etc, that it isnt too unplausible that the shamans indeed did have supernatural or paranormal powers, by today's standards at least...because the people at those times were "unrestricted" by the imagination-bounding knowledge that people of today's society is pounded with in their head from day one. Intuition is also another one of our natural abilities that is sadly stunted and hindered by the societies we live in today, with what all the "westernization" rampantly reigning the world and so on.


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2099950 -

Modern medicine and technology cured my mom's breast cancer.

I honestly don't think a shaman could have done that......






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"Puny earthlings do not yet know the meaning of the word suffering!!"


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Necron99]
    #2099955 -

Maybe breast cancer wouldnt have been a problem back when true Shamans existed.... :wink:


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2099972 -

Why would you assume that?

Probably buttloads of tribal women have died of breast cancer....


--------------------

"Puny earthlings do not yet know the meaning of the word suffering!!"


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2099974 -

SkorpivoMusterion said:
(snip)


here's an excerpt:

Shroomism said:
I think that it far surpasses our current western medical understanding of human anatomy and healing. And considering they had this thousands of years ago, that's a pretty big statement.


Exactly...and thats what I'm questioning and trying to analyze here... how, why, what, where, HOW did it all start?


Well, you're assuming that the medical knowledge of the ancients surpassed our own, which it did not. I don't see how believing that "evil spirits" or the like caused disease could be considered "superior" to our own medical knowledge.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Necron99]
    #2099995 -

Quote:
Why would you assume that?

Probably buttloads of tribal women have died of breast cancer....



Why would you assume that? :smirk:

http://altmedangel.com/am.html 


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Necron99]
    #2100004 -

Necron99 said:
Why would you assume that?

Probably buttloads of tribal women have died of breast cancer....


That is, if they didn't die first from childhood diseases, childbirth, or even something as simple as a common cold turning into pneumonia. Even at that, most Neolithic era people died before their 30th birthday.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #2100018 -

What 9000 BC europeans? That wouldn't surprise me.

What about the Chinese, who used herbs and other holistic methods for healing? They had a life expectancy of 61 years in that era.


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2100339 -

you never answered my question


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2100607 -

Modern man, to a large degree, has lost contact with any concept of an overmind. Ancient tribal societies had a belief system based upon an overmind. They had Shamans who managed to take care of them for many hundreds of years, meeting the medical and spiritual needs of the communities they lived in. They have only failed in not being able to find a way to coexist with humans i.e us, who have no interest in coexisting, only in domination. Are you suggesting that because we have successfully dominated these cultures that they are in someway flawed? Perhaps the powers attributed to their shamans are overstated, perhaps not, we can all have our opinions on that matter. But just because their shamans were not able to fight off western culture like a bunch of powerful Gandalf's on acid does not in one fell swoop negate any other claims attributed to these shamans.
Perhaps the overmind knows what its doing in the long run anyway...


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2100776 -

Actually shamanism still exists, and its existance is proof of its still having life and viability for those who study it. There are very ancient shamanic systems such as the Bonpos, and the Chodpas, the Shaktas, American Indians, Inuit, and many more. It;s said that England has more Wicca than Anglicans now. Shamanism isn't dead, and it hasn't failed. Religion and Science have failed to protect life on earth. The Earth teeters more precariously now than ever before, because of science and religion. Shamanism could be a cure to the nightmare of modern life.


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...or something






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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: eve69]
    #2100838 -

Very good points.

Peace


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: eve69]
    #2100898 -

The resurgence of Shamanic practice is but one sign that Technophilia is failing.Yes technology while appearing a great boon has not solved one major human condition,not hunger,disease,war,hatred,greed nothing.
Shamanism by it's very nature deals with the human condition.Gnostic Christian Shaman are emerging with a practical paradigm for life,will it be taken or will the flashing lights and plastic beads of technology ride us out of our very humanity?
WR:rasta:


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To old for this place

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2100923 -

Technology has the potential to solve all of the things you mentioned with the exception Greed and war. Technology is not bad. repeat ad nauseam!


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2100936 -

whiterasta said:
The resurgence of Shamanic practice is but one sign that Technophilia is failing.Yes technology while appearing a great boon has not solved one major human condition,not hunger,disease,war,hatred,greed nothing.


... and how long before technology arose did shamanism have to solve hunger, disease, war, hatred, and greed? The persistence of these and the turning of humanity to other means to try to alleviate them must say something about the usefullness of shamanism.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2100966 -

Quote:
Technology has the potential to solve all of the things you mentioned with the exception Greed and war. Technology is not bad 


Technology has NO POWER TO DO ANYTHING! only those who weild it do.
As I said when bell labs and burning man share validity then perhaps until then NOTHING has changed but the toys we play with.
WR:rasta:


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To old for this place

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2101029 -

Perhaps Shamanism developed valuable facets of human understanding that are not currently embraced by mainstream society. Ideas that didnt need a technological footing to be worthwhile and that can exist just as easily in a technological society. If these concepts were reintergrated into society to work together with our technological prowess, we may see improvements in many areas of life.

The whole idea of comparing shamanism to our society and declaring our society a success and shamanism a failure is pointlessly simplistic anyway.

PEACE


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2101030 -

This is why we missed you, Swam.  You bring us good discussions. :smile:

Cheers,

MM

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2101033 -

Quote:
Technology has NO POWER TO DO ANYTHING!



maybe I should have said facilitated. Our "power" is severely reduced without it, thats for sure.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2101052 -

GazzBut said:
Perhaps Shamanism developed valuable facets of human understanding that are not currently embraced by mainstream society.


Which begs the question, why aren't these 'valuable facets of human understanding' not embraced by mainstream society? If they are valuable, surely more people would embrace them. After all, shamanism had most of human history to prove it's value but has largely been abandoned.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2101069 -

Because of the power mongers. Shamanism does not serve their purpose.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: sirreal]
    #2101089 -

But couldn't it serve the purposes of the average shmoe? Take a look at the use of herbs, an ancient practice which still persists to this day and is actually gaining in popularity in western cultures (well, at least in the U.S.). Scientists have established VALIDITY to some claims attributed to various herbs by testing of chemicals derived from them or the whole herbs themselves.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2101101 -

Evolving said:
But couldn't it serve the purposes of the average shmoe? Take a look at the use of herbs, an ancient practice which still persists to this day and is actually gaining in popularity in western cultures (well, at least in the U.S.). Scientists have established VALIDITY to some claims attributed to various herbs by testing of chemicals derived from them or the whole herbs themselves.



Exactly. some of the things they practiced are still viable today. In spite of what the patent crazy pharm. companys want.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: sirreal]
    #2101109 -

Quote:
sirreal said:
Exactly. some of the things they practiced are still viable today. In spite of what the patent crazy pharm. companys want. 


Don't get me started on a political tangent about the undue legislative influence of the medical industries. :mad:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2101116 -

O.K.

I will not. :grin: 


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2101790 -

Swami said:
the Indians were doing just fine
Many starving in the winter, tribes attacking other tribes, high infant mortality - these things are "doing just fine"?

until the Europeans wiped them out.
Showing that their Medicine Men were unable to protect them; so perhaps their Ancestors had no power.



I have a hard time agreeing at all with the accepted views of what constitutes "doing just fine". Why is it so bad to live in a low tech society? When will life be "good enough"? Is it all worthless until they create the miracle drug that allows us to live forever?

I do not think that a high infant mortality rate (subjective) and other such things are necessarily bad. Obviously it causes grief, but it's all part of the experience of life. I would love to live in a society without all these "precious" commodities - TV, computers, smart bombs, etc. Not that these things are bad either (excepting the bombs), but the lazy, self-absorbed lifestyle that most people have embraced is only helped further along by a comfortable existence. The rate at which technology is growing is being surpassed by the rate at which consumerism and mind control is spreading - and all thanks to this wonderful technology. Eventually it will only lead to something worse than what we had before. A bunch of fat-ass, money-hungry corporate whores led by the morons with the loudest voice. No medicine man will be able to help us then either.


--------------------
Like a fiend in a cloud
With howling woe,
After night I do croud
And with night will go;
I turn my back to the east,
From whence comforts have increas'd;
For light doth seize my brain
With frantic pain.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Nirvhead]
    #2101827 -

does it matter why shamanism failed? it happened, and theres no going back. lets think of what could happen in the future instead of arguing about something we cant prove.


--------------------
Here comes the sun, do n do do,
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright...

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: IamHungry]
    #2101888 -

with all this talk about modern medicine i would like to say that modern medicine causes more harm than good.like the overpopulation of our planet may be because of modern medicine. it saves lives but in the long run over population will kill more humans than anything else.some diseases are natures way of dealing with overpopulation, like AIDS a sexually transmited disease. modern medicine is a double edged sword.high birth rates would concern me more than lower birth rates in this present overpopulation situation we are in.

Following natures way and accpet your and loved ones death(for the good of humanity as a whole).would be more benefial than trying to save evrey one witch is pure greed.death is nothing to be afraid of.

Edited by mindcandy (11/13/03 01:35 PM)

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: buckwheat]
    #2102279 -

Like all spirituality it got bogged down by tradition that was passed down through the generations. As exploration became dogma, evolution stopped and stagnated and was cut down to be reborn anew.


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i am another you

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2102340 -

Evolving said:
GazzBut said:
Perhaps Shamanism developed valuable facets of human understanding that are not currently embraced by mainstream society.


Which begs the question, why aren't these 'valuable facets of human understanding' not embraced by mainstream society? If they are valuable, surely more people would embrace them. After all, shamanism had most of human history to prove it's value but has largely been abandoned.


This post seems to assume that most people are rational enough to recognize what is valuable and what is not. In a society in which people buy Britney Spears albums and SUV's and support George W. Bush, I see no evidence of any recognition of true value.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2102697 -

So, shamanism delivers less tangible benefits (is less valuable) than Britney Spears albums, SUV's and support for George W. Bush...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2103123 -

Shroomism said:
What 9000 BC europeans? That wouldn't surprise me.

What about the Chinese, who used herbs and other holistic methods for healing? They had a life expectancy of 61 years in that era.


Good point! But was it due to so-called "Shamanism", or the fact that China was, at the time, one of the more technologically advanced nations?

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2103150 -

Quote:
So, shamanism delivers less tangible benefits (is less valuable) than Britney Spears albums, SUV's and support for George W. Bush... 



I hope you typed that with an ironic smile!  :grin: 


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2103152 -

I fail to see any tangible(or intangible) benefits to be gained from buying a Britney Spears album.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2103247 -

Quote:
Editor's note: Very few, if any, responses were free from overt emotionalism and going completely astray. Where is the self-control? Have we learned nothing?


 

The equation has not been solved, but the steps to get there are being learned :wink:. Thats why your here though... is it not? To teach on how to get through the process?
--------
My responses were the result of the various questions that boggled in my mind... as to why you created the post... To my position, i felt i had to assume different possibilities in order to find your real position on the issue... which i realized what you were asking while writing it... to a degree.
----------------------
My point with the whole Arcchitect construction thing had to do with how people live and build with the land, and how that relates as a desire for more... ie. consumerism, your city of excess, etc. In that regards seeing as how a core structure supports all of the same type of activity, yes in my eye i think some ideas of "shamanism" or living with the Land were a good thing, because the current rate for consumption has no care of the harm it causes on the planet as long as it doesnt keep people from making money.
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Quote:
Even though each shamanic culture was different, that essentially was THEIR CLAIM, not mine - and is proved to be pathetic in the face of real physical power.




thats what i wanted to know.
---------------------------
Quote:
  It was not higher spirituality, but fewer numbers that kept the land relatively unpolluted. India is considered a holy country, but is a cesspool.




My intention was not to argue the aspect of spirituality in regards to the success of the shamans.  My intention was to point out the behavior that they used in regards to their adaptation with the natural environment.

-----------------

Quote:
I think it is incredibly weak reading comprehension to assume things that I did NOT say.




i had full intentions of assuming your point, seeing as how i could not gather that else where.... Im not saying it excuses me or anything, or makes my point any more important... But the whole idea of making assumptions was to get you to react in order for me to find your position.
-------------------------------------
 
Quote:
The shaman DID NOT protect the tribe into the modern era. That would seem to relegate him to obsolescence for that major function, now would it not?




for the major function of protection? Yes i agree with you on that, that is obvious.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Why would you have responded if it did not press some of your buttons? I had to get a rise out of you some how :smile:

It would be hard to avoid so many responses with such an open ended question, and from such a person who is known to get a rise out of the shroomerites :wink:  :grin: 


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What?

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2103304 -

So, shamanism delivers less tangible benefits (is less valuable) than Britney Spears albums, SUV's and support for George W. Bush...

:confused:
less tangible = less valuable???
 

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2103348 -

silversoul7 said:
I fail to see any tangible(or intangible) benefits to be gained from buying a Britney Spears album.


Her record sales would indicate that there are others who gain the emotional benefit of enjoyable entertainment (I am not one of those). If we are being democratic about it, I would say that the people have spoken, via their actions they have shown that Ms Spears is more highly valued than shamanism.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2103380 -

You can't possible reduce all of western culture down to Britney Spears.

Think of your favorite musicians, artists, movies, books... how many of them come from western countries?



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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2103418 -

infidelGOD said:
:confused:
less tangible = less valuable???


Actually, less tangible benefits can be considered less valuable (keeping in mind that value is subjective).  As I stated in my response to Silversoul, some may be getting the emotional benefit of enjoyable entertainment.  Others may appreciate having a vehicle to get them to and from their girlfriend's house (or wherever).  Others may be appreciative of the actions of our current occupant of the White House and like seeing the dollar valuation (or dividends) of their stock in companies that comprise the military industrial complex rise.  Apparently, very few people see shamanism as bringing any benefits to their lives or it would be more widely appreciated.  Perhaps using the word, 'tangible' when referring to what can be felt emotionally or enjoyed is not using the best terminology to communicate what I meant, for that I apologize (feel free to suggest a more approriate word).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Phluck]
    #2103431 -

Phluck said:
You can't possible reduce all of western culture down to Britney Spears.


No you can't. (Not in my mind anyway)

Quote:
Think of your favorite musicians, artists, movies, books... how many of them come from western countries?


The majority of them.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Phluck]
    #2103531 -

can't possible reduce all of western culture down to Britney Spears.

What about Disco?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2103567 -

After listening to Chewing Wolf's Shamanic Chants vol. 4, I've got to say it was really just a rehash of the same ground Buoyant Moose covered in the late 70's, and dozens of artists have been delving into since. I mean, come on people, when is someone really going to reinvent the shamanic chant?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2106187 -

Swami said:
can't possible reduce all of western culture down to Britney Spears.

What about Disco? 


:lol:

That is hysterical.  I just love it when a thread has gone serious and a bit of humor is injected at just the right moment!

That was humor, wasn't it?  :confused:
(crosses fingers) 

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: ]
    #2107510 -

what is shamanism anyway? Does anybody know? A few probably do but most of you are reacting to the distracting and incendiary statements about how technoculture is superior. That's all irrelevant, though. Swami's question is why did it fail to protect the tribe against destruction, so here's the answer, I'll present it as a play:

Paleontologist: The Tyranosaurus Rex used it's mighty teeth and claws to tear into it's prey. These jaw-mounted razorblades ensured the T-rex's survival..

Swami: But wait, the Tyranosaurus is extinct, right?

Paleontologist: Well, yes..

Swami: Then clearly, the teeth and claws were worthless!

Paleontologist: My God.. you're right.. Swami! You're a genius!

See, there's something wrong with that. You're creating this argument attacking something that doesn't exist, which is the claim that a shaman can ensure the tribes survival in all situations. The shaman ensures the survival of the tribe in their "natural" state but when the environment changes rapidly then naturally things are going to have to change. Lack of adaptation results in death. This is called "natural selection" which results in "evolution."

Maybe what you're trying to get at is that shamanism doesn't help people survive in any situation. That's a completetly different argument. This one has been settled, here's our score so far swami:

You- 0
Me- 1

bring on the next round.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2107578 -

Swami said:
and this they call advanced they are all a bunch of Inspector Gadget's. thats all it is stupid gadgets.

Yet, YOU are using those gadgets that you decry to transmit your opinion - no hypocrisy there.



Do you use medicine? Are you aware that a very large percentage of western medicine comes from Shamanism. Shamanic medicine in the Americas was centuries ahead of western medicine not too long ago, and still holds knowledge yet to be discovered by western science.

Are you a hypocrite for using medicine?


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2107729 -

See, there's something wrong with that. You're creating this argument attacking something that doesn't exist, which is the claim that a shaman can ensure the tribes survival in all situations.

You make a good point, but overlook one facet: most shamans, BY THEIR OWN CLAIMS, use their entry into the spirit world to divine the future and sometimes to use black magic to protect their tribe from invaders.

Truly seeing into the future gives one ENORMOUS adaptablity.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2107825 -

well, when they say that they can see into the future do they mean that was we think they do. Take this:

I was reading that the inuit used to read the waves before they set out in their one-man kayaks to hunt whales. Reading the waves would tell them whether it was going to be a good day to ride out in their kayaks or not. Reading the waves involves considering the interplay between 5 waves:waves of the weather system leaving, waves of the weather systm arriving, waves of the tide, waves caused by the shape of the shore and the terrain beneath the water, and one other one I can't remember.

Maybe someone reading the waves or doing something similiar once told someone that they could see the future to someone who took that to mean something completely different. Could be a translation problem.

Because really I'm skeptical that there are many shamans who claim to be able to see the future because it's a ridiculous claim. Any shaman who claims to be able to see into the future probably gets more media attention than others. If one shaman in 10 said that one effect from ayahuasca was to see the future you can bet that one will get into the list of effects, and suddenly one nut-case is speaking for all the shamans.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2109133 -

Swami said:
The FACT of the matter is the the least shamanic societies (like the USA) are enormously successful in survival.

Oh really? In my book, the least shamanic societies, like empires (Rome, the US of A,...), are bound not only to fall, but to cause the demise of humanity in the very end. On the other hand, the 'most shamanic' societies may not be the most 'advanced' or comfortable to live in, but at least they leave their biotope unharmed for themselves and others. On the long run, I'd say shamanic societies are the most sustainable.

Quote:
shamanistic cultures may have been greatly overshadowed by other cultures, but that doesn't mean shamanism has failed.
I guess NO SURVIVAL equals a smashing success in your mind.

Like someone pointed out before me, shamanism HAS survived, and is coming back quickly, precisely within very technological societies (coincidence?). I guess it's improbable it will prevail over what we know as 'Western' culture, but claiming it didn't survive is just a mistake.

And yet, Swami, you do have a point. I've been thinking along those lines as well. I used to idealise shamanism and shamans in a way. I used to see shamans as some kind of saints. To me, if you came in contact with the 'Overmind' (call it whatever you will) on a very regular base and for a long period of time, you were inevitably bound to become someone very enlightened. Until I traveled to Peru this summer, to finally meet real shamans...

Not that I was disappointed. Shamans are, it seems, very gentle people, very knowledgeable, they have many features I expected. But they also tend to be very manipulative, specially when it comes to women and sexual issues, and they definitely did not eliminate greed, some of them are even very good at it... I noticed these things myself, and they were confirmed to me by people who've worked with shamans for most of their lives, so I'm not just wildly generalising.
Like you stated, shamanism was used (and probably still is, in a way) to gain insights in how to efficiently wage wars against the enemy. While I, naive as I was, would have thought that tripping this often would make anyone give up any kind of violence forever...

The only plausible answer that was ever given to me about this question is that when it comes to shamanism, you have to distinguish between the tool itself (shamanism) and the people who use(d) it: premodern tribes. The assumption that tripping makes people better probably only fits our modern culture, where the individual can reflect on himself as such. In tribal cultures, there's no real individuality. Every member of a tribe is a part of his tribe in the first place, the tribe is good and the enemy is bad. If something goes wrong, the obvious answer is to look for outside causes and wage war against them if necessary. Shamans do not practice shamanism to become better people or to change their fellow tribesmen, but to gain advantages (health, good hunts, victory over enemies...) for themselves and their tribes. Spiritual evolution is a concept that fits better with our culture than theirs, but for which shamanism could be very usefull still...

So, I don't know about this explanation. To me, tripping very often should be influential enough to change cultures and worldviews... so I still don't know. Thanks for asking, but don't be misled by some of your phoney arguments... :wink:   

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2109270 -

The FACT of the matter is the the least shamanic societies (like the USA) are enormously successful in survival.


You know Swami, THAT is a temporary illusion.

This least shamanic society has become so disconnected that they fail to realize something: Their methods of survival is not an example of equilibrium... an important tennet that many tribes of ancient times had a firm grip upon.

Their appetites are getting so large, that their demand is overwhelming the rest of the world.




They are also "successful" because of their "toys".. In a "battlebot" competition, the USA wins hands down...

But then, this dosen't seem like co-existance anymore... I think I saw something like this in elementary school a few times: AKA- Bullying.

Other nations are getting edgy... There's talk about NUK's... It's getting pretty crazy!




There HAVE been battles in ancient times before as well... Some real BIG ones too.. But never has it gotten to such a state that EVERYONE's safety was in question..




It is withing the relative present, that society in general has let go of the spiritual realm.. It is within the relative present that the most chaos potential is becomming apparent.






Ancient tribes felt their connection and had genuine respect for their surroundings... Maybe it is time to take a few steps back to our roots.



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2109450 -

For the FINAL time, I never once stated ANYTHING about morals or ethics or desirability; merely about survival value. Indigneous tribes relying on shamanic guides are being (or have been)wiped out or absorbed all around the planet, thus their survival mechanisms are not very utilitarian.

Most counter arguments (how does one argue with facts?) are emotional appeals to "shoulds" and "ought tos".

See my upcoming thread on Current Reality.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2109491 -

yeah guys stay on topic.. be less emotionally attached to all these weird ideals and shit, it helps you see through crap and build an argument against swami's simple question: why did shamanism fail to keep indigenous tribes alive?

It's such a simple topic, don't write huge irrelevant essays

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2109497 -

C'mon man, admit it when you're out of answers... it would suit a harsh and respectable debater like you somewhat better.

How can you judge shamanism's ability to survive in the long run when history is far from over... or do you believe in Fukuyama?

And do you really believe shamanism is dead? Maybe the best adaptive answer for it was to duck for cover and stay put, let 'civilization' pretend it won, only to come back with a vengeance when the world would be more prepared to understand what it has to teach us. Admittedly, this hasn't happened yet, and maybe never will, but you must admit there's something of a revival there.
And yes indeed, the shamanistic societies are no longer, but I'm talking about shamanism itself, which was the subject of this thread.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Aldous]
    #2109619 -

In my book, the least shamanic societies, like empires (Rome, the US of A,...), are bound not only to fall, but to cause the demise of humanity in the very end.
You must be a shaman as you are making a prophecy. An argument based on how you see the future has no relevance in logical debate.

On the other hand, the 'most shamanic' societies may not be the most 'advanced' or comfortable to live in, but at least they leave their biotope unharmed for themselves and others.
False. Please give us a full report on sanitation in the places that you lived in. This fallacy is covered by the law of small numbers. Easter Islanders made their biotope almost completely unlivable long before any technology came along.

On the long run, I'd say shamanic societies are the most sustainable.
Your fantasy notwithstanding, history shows otherwise.

Like someone pointed out before me, shamanism HAS survived,
A modern interest on shamanism shows NOTHING about the efficacy of shamanic practices as a healing or divination tool.

but claiming it didn't survive is just a mistake.
*sigh* Another reading comprehension error.

To me, tripping very often should be influential enough to change cultures and worldviews...
And you base this sweeping assumption on what, precisely?




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2109666 -

Quote:
A modern interest on shamanism shows NOTHING about the efficacy of shamanic practices as a healing or divination tool.


Not true, there are scientists that are studying shamanistic brews for medicinal properties, to patent and sell their discoveries so that the tribes can make money. I watched a documentary on this.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: pattern]
    #2109697 -

Herbalism is a component of shamanism, but is not shamanism per se any more than a kick is Shaolin King Fu.

Reread my statement please :" Interest shows nothing...". Interest is a measurement of curiosity not utilitarianism. A high interest in astrology tells nothing of it's validity.




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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: pattern]
    #2109703 -

true, its in a scientific american article, but their progress is being slowed by governmental beuracracy.... Go Figure!


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What?

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2110070 -

My mistake, I misread your statement.  Needed a comma or something. :grin:


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2111039 -

Swami said:
On the long run, I'd say shamanic societies are the most sustainable.
Your fantasy notwithstanding, history shows otherwise.

Once again, let history decide for itself and don't call the outcome before it's over.
Also, I don't think it's just my fantasy. The Roman civilization lasted for about a good millennium, and collapsed out of overoptimistic military expansion. The USA has been around for a few centuries, and seems tempted to make a few similar mistakes. How long have precolumbian Amazonian societies lasted? I think it was longer than that.
Quote:
To me, tripping very often should be influential enough to change cultures and worldviews...
And you base this sweeping assumption on what, precisely?

On experience, for instance... I've tripped quite a lot myself, and it's had decisive influences on my life. Most of the other people around here would say exactly the same. That's for the worldview part. Many worldviews make a culture, or at least a subculture. You can't deny the influence of psychedelics on popular culture in the 60's. And psychedelics were just counterculture at the time. So I repeat, if tripping is a mainstream feature of any given culture, I'm very inclined to think this would have a decisive influence on it.

Admittedly, I can't prove this (that's why I used phrases as "to me" and "very inclined to think..."), it's simply experience and deduction. But then, if every time a chick tells you she loves you, you ask her to prove it, you're doomed to remain single, right Swami?    :wink: 

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Aldous]
    #2112358 -

Question: Why did Shamanism Fail to protect a certain tribe from being conquered by another tribe?

I have thought out every aspect of this argument and completely acknowledge the question at hand. I have spent at least 3 hours contemplating my argument before placing it. This is not an emotional response. But a clearly thought out response.

Swami,

What kind of shamanism are you referring to? Curanderismo, Brujeria, African Voodo, Jewish Cabalism, Buddhist Tantricism, Shinto, Siberian/Inuit shamanism or just the ability to divine the future and know where ones enemy is? Or are you referring to the Europeans conquering the Amerindians? Your fallacy in this form of thinking is that you don?t understand your own question. Please, excuse my bluntness. I mean the Universal You not YOU. The question is so broad and misunderstood that no one has given you an answer. Well, I?ll try my best.

Here is the gist of what you are hypothesizing: Because one culture/race conquered another, and the conquered culture/race believed in shamans and those shamans failed to protect the conquered, shamanism is fraudulent. If this is referring to the Amerindian Cultures and its assimilation/annihilation by the European Cultures then this is my answer.

One, the conquering race, Europeans, did believe in shamanism/witchcraft. They believed it so much they stopped at nothing until they wiped it out as much as they could. Control cannot be had with free thinkers like shamans. They are not as easily persuaded to follow like sheep. Only a good sheep follows the Shepard. How could a good sheep make its own path? That must clearly be a bad sheep. Thinking done in the head of a Catholic of old. For fear of heretics is the driving force of the Catholic Priests or Prophets, they are the same.
Two, the Indian races were being conquered already by one another whilst building City-States Empires. For you to cognize the conquering of one over another and shamanism not being a part of the process is a fallacy in itself. I assure you shamanism was utilized to the fullest by the conquering and the conquered in these City-State-Empire Assimilation Conquests of the Americas. These City States used Shamanism to conquer neighboring tribes whose shamans were not as powerful as the city state shamans. When conquering the neighboring tribes they used different ?non-lethal? ways to bring back as many new slaves/citizens as possible.
Three, the Catholic Church knew about witchcraft and how to counteract the forces of such crafts. Here's an example of shamanism in the catholic service. When the priest waves around the burning incense or ashes that is for cleansing the church's ceremonial area, that is a form of shamanism or witchcraft, whichever you choose to call it. Why do you think the Catholics were so afraid of the Witches? Because the witches knew the truth and what the Catholics were spewing out to keep control and taxes flowing in is not the truth. I assure you there was more to the Bible than the King James Version. The Alter or Ceremonial Table is another form of shamanism. Catholics use an Alter so do shamans, huh, go figure. The Catholics knew how to counteract witchcraft, i.e. the blocking of seeing where your enemy is or the Blocking of the evil eye. This can be done by wearing a white ribbon on the left wrist. Look at Madonna next time you see her. She always has her protection on for the evil eye since she is in the spotlight. Out of the entire Native Populous less than one percent were shamans. Just like college graduates in the world today, they made up a small minority of the total population. Therefore only a few people in the world were/are shamans, whether they were Indian, European, black, red, yellow, blue, green or whatever had shamans in their nations and either utilized them for the good of the whole or denounced them as devils or frauds or praised them as Prophets suggests to me that shamanism has played a major role in shaping humanities social fabrics.
The ?Technologies? you mention like black powder were invented by shamans for shamanistic purposes, i.e. driving away evil spirits. With the knowledge of Roman tactics, witchcraft, black powder and diseases, Europeans were able to subdue the Amerindians City States with minimal numbers. To stay in power they had to commit religious warfare on the natives to keep the control and use misinformation to make them ignorant to the truths they were forgetting.

Lets start with the beginning. Shamanism is almost as old as man. Just because one can utilize ?supernatural? forces doesn?t mean they will use them in an ethical and beneficial manner. Look up the definitions of a Curandero, (healer) and a Brujo (sorcerer). The former uses power for healing the latter for hurting. For you to think that the American Indians were the only shamans is a major fallacy in its own right. The Catholic Church was as wicked a witch as there ever was. The wicked witch of the east. LOL. You see, you are not considering an issue. The Catholics had witches and wizards or ones that could ?see?, divine the future, and call upon the counsel of spirits or ?saints? of their own, as does the CIA today. The Catholic ?witches? knew as much as the ?native? shamans did, and more, i.e. gunpowder. We will get to that one here in a minute. They had been battling with European witchcraft for centuries and centuries. Before the Catholics, it was the Roman Shamans or soothsayers battling with the whole ?known? world for the one thing that man is always hungry for, POWER>. For you to suggest that because the Europeans conquered this land and stole it from the Indians means that shamanism is fraudulent is just not fair to the rest of the shamans in the world. LOLOLO. Man, Do you not think that it is remotely possible that European Shamans were battling with Native shamans for this land as well? It?s also probable that the European Shamans had more ?experience? in totally conquering a nation. They learned from the best, ROME>. As does the US>or as I like to call it ROME III. Rome the third. Or the Third Reich>Empire. That's what it all boils down to, POWER AND CONTROL. Who ever has the most powerful shamans/Evil rules the world. That is the foreshadowing to the CIA>

Let?s go back to ancient China. Black powder was invented to drive evil spirits/forces/entities out of the village every New Year as a way of cleansing the village of the evil that was dragged into it by everyday life. Would you not agree then that the invention of black powder is a form of shamanism? Then European Alchemist/wizards took the black powder and turned it into gunpowder via shamanism or through communion with spirits/forces/entities. In the ~700?s the city of Byzantium was being invaded by the Muslims. An Assyrian engineer came up with what is know as Greek Fire. It was a medieval flamethrower that would keep an invading navy at bay. And that's just what it did. The Greek Fire totally annihilated the Muslim Ships in the harbor. I?ll bet the house that the Assyrian Engineer utilized Syrian Rue as a Helper spirit in figuring out how to keep the Turks at bay. To this day they cannot replicate Greek Fire? With what the known ingredients were, they still don?t understand how it ignited upon contact with water. Truly, witchcraft or Alchemy? Some may call it Technology. But it?s not technology when someone receives the answers through spiritual contact rather than trial error and the scientific method, that?s shamanism. And through shamanism the same results or answers can be known as through modern technology. How far apart are they? One states a scientific method the other states the existence of ?supernatural? forces. They both exist simultaneously, IMHO>

Ancient American City State Empires, i.e. Aztec, Mayan, and Incan, were based and built with fear, witchcraft and power-lust just like the Roman, and Roman Catholic Empires were built. They were all built with the blood and bones of conquered surrounding peoples. Had the American City States had a few more centuries to develop and finish assimilating the surrounding peoples to Rome?s standards of civilization they might not have been so easy to conquer. They were conquered each one by some of the most cunning and unscrupulous men there ever where. The utilization of the neighboring tribes against the City States was one of the key factors of their success. You have to remember that the total conquistador numbers where in the thousands whilst the populous of the Americas were in the millions. They did not single handily conquer the Americas. They did it with Native Help. Just like in North America when the English had their Native Allies and the French had theirs and they managed to kill one another until some tribes vanished before the country gained its freedom from England.
The diseases and black powder were the other main factors. The diseases could not be dealt with by just administering a plant. Most were viruses and antibiotics will not cure a virus. No, the people that are here today who, like myself, are descendents of those ?conquered? peoples are the descendents of the few that were not killed by the diseases. The few that miraculously did not die were saved by shamanism. Other wise the diseases would have wiped us ALL out. And they did not thanks to shamanism Not a medicinal plant but true healing. I say that is enough right there to show that somehow the diseases didn?t kill all of us. Apparently, some of us survived or I wouldn?t be here.
Upon assimilation and total utilization of every known aspect of how to gain and keep power, these American City States had Brujos or evil shamans that used Datura for power. The City-State shamans were more powerful shamans than the ones that lived in the villages of the conquered neighboring tribes. Except for a few exceptions. The Caribs of Panama/ Costa Rica /Colombia were never conquered until Modern Times. Due to their ferocious reputations as headhunters and voodoo witch doctors that could shrink a head. Also, some tribes escaped even knowing about the Spanish invasion or white people until the twentieth century, secluded in the depths of the vast and almost never ending Amazon. I would say that those tribes of Amazonians that were "discovered" in the 1970's had Shamans who were very powerful and knowledgeable enough to disappear into the Amazon when the proverbial Shiite hit the fan.
When the first Conquistadors started to try to take over these city states they realized they needed local help, they had to use the help of the other tribes that the City states were assimilating into their own. Those neighboring tribes lost thousands or warriors trying to free themselves from one tyrant in place of another. Both the American City State and Rome had the same goals. Conquer and Control all that they could. Then After ?using? the neighboring tribes the Conquistadors pulled a classic power maneuver. Screw your partner over so you can have it all.
The way the Catholics conquered the peoples was through shamanism. Religious war. The Catholics first make it a crime punishable by damnation to practice your native Religion because it is devil worship. Do you think that the Catholic Church and its government didn?t know about witchcraft? I assure you they knew allot more than they let on about witchcraft, shamanism and how to counter act the forces of witchcraft or shamanism. Hell, they had been trying to get rid of ?heretics? since their beginning. If one is trying to ?see? where their enemy is, a ?block? can be placed to stop that person from ?seeing? their enemy if their enemy knows how to ?block? them from ?seeing? and is more powerful. YOU SEE> Just because one is a shaman doesn?t mean that they are the most powerful shaman. Just like athletes some are stronger than others.
The Catholics knew how to counteract the ?witchcraft? of the American City states. They knew how to counteract the witchcraft of the Old World and now they understand the witchcraft of the New World, isn't that right, NEO.lOL. I assure you that there are passages in the bible that are as powerful an incantation as the Mayan book of the dead. The Lords Prayer is a powerful protection incantation. If you don?t believe me say it the next time you are confronted with evil. So it all boils down to the conqueror having more ?power, knowledge, or shamanism? than the conquered. Not whether or not shamanism works because it did and does still today. It worked when it was used to conquer this land and it will be used to defend it as well.

What my final conclusion states is this.

The three main factors contributing to such an enormous and overwhelming conquering by the Europeans are Black Powder, Disease and a Knowledge of Witchcraft. The black powder is a form of shamanism or alchemy or witchcraft disguised as technology. Then when utilized as a weapon that witchcraft goes from being a useful tool in exorcizing evil to creating evil. Do you see the relationships. The black powder is a neutral power/force it knows no prejudice. When used for good it helps the village when used for evil it harms the village, yet when used for defense it saves the village. Just like the shamans powers when used for evil they harm when used for good they heal and protect. Those powers are as neutral as the black powder and ball they know no prejudice. The European conquistadors had in their possession the foreknowledge to counteract some but not all the powers that the native shamans possessed.
The diseases were mostly Viral infections which can't be treated with plants or antibiotics. They had to be "removed" and that takes a very powerful shaman. Not all Shamans can do everything. Some have certain skills in this and others in that. One is a healer the other a hurter. The diseases didn't kill all of us. Miraculously some of us survived. Or I wouldn't be here typing. Those of us were saved by shamanism. How could some of us survive from an invasion of diseases we had no immunities for. A miracle? No shamans.
The catholics knew about witchcraft/shamanism and also knew how to counteract those forces. Therefore, battles occured in this reality and other realities. Through, religous warfare the Catholic "shamans" defeated the city state shamans. Witchcraft when used for power is almost an undefeatable opponent. Unless you know how to counteract those powers, you will not survive.
These factors along with an adamant desire to control, are the reasons why the Amerindians lost this land to the Europeans. However, Not all was lost. Some native shamans were so powerful that they took their people into remote lands not to be discovered until centuries later, or not at all. I believe that the most powerful shamans lead their people through portals into another world that is in the same space as this world but is phased out of time slightly. Right now they are walking through us and we through them. I "saw" one the other day. And she looked fine, not like some conquered "fool" swami would like us to believe. But like a proud and noble woman, of Choctaw Blood.

The answer to your question is that shamanism did not fail. The Amerindians form of shamanism was not as powerful as European witchcraft when it came to Conquering Lands. The European Witches were more powerful Shamans when it came to POWERLUST>

OFF the subject but still pertains to the post:

CIA> When 9/11 went down and they showed us the Bin Laden Videos. He stated that one of their "holy" men (shamans) had a prophetic vision in a dream of fire and the two buildings going down two years before it happened. He told the man to keep quiet and not speak or think of it again as not to alert any one to their plans. Why. For Fear that his "holy" man would not be powerful enough to keep the knowledge inside his head and it would be extracted by US "shamans" hired by the CIA. I know it sounds crazy, take it any way you want. This is the way I see it going down. The US uses psychics/shamans/whatever you want to call them for intelligence purposes. And their enemies do too. The spy world is nothing compared to the battles that go on in other levels of this reality. I know. Sounds crazy, but so did going to the moon in the 20's. And so did sailing around the world without falling of the edge in the 1400's.



Medicinebag



Edited by medicinebag (11/16/03 06:52 PM)

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: medicinebag]
    #2112488 -

Hau Kola

Nice post.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2112557 -

We still have Shamans,but they're called "psychiatrists". And just like shamanism,some of what they say works,and some is a pile of shit.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: monoamine]
    #2112845 -

The pile of shiite is spewed from Liars. Shamnanism doesn't mean that a person is an ethical person. Some shamans, Brujos, lie, steal, cheat and are only obsessed with power. Not healing. Those psychiatrists use substances that were discovered through shamanism to cure. Ie. MAOI's. Just becuase you are prescribed an MAOI or SSRI doesn't mean that it will cure your depression. The cure comes from an experiened shaman plus the powerplant. Not just from the powerplant and a dosage schedule from a phsych doc. When the docs prescribe antidepressants they are not exactly like the powerplants. Theyare weeker imho.

Medicinebag

On a similar note: If one has to take an anti-depressant every day of their lives where is the cure? I cured myself from manic depression with a single years session of High Doses of Psilocybin. When the docs prescribe SSRI's OR MAOI's the dosages are so low that the drug will never cure the patient. That is why they always have to up the dose after a few months or so. Becasue they never gave the proper dose to cure in the first place. Therefore, they are never cured only kept in a sick but not cured state, IMHO.

Edited by medicinebag (11/16/03 11:49 PM)

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: medicinebag]
    #2113694 -

Thanks, Mr. Mushrooms K+ back to you.

I don't speak lakota. The language I was taught is not spoken outloud to others. It is only used during cerimony and communion.

Medicinebag

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2113909 -

perhaps then the goal is not to become like the shamanisms, but integrate what good the shamans had into our world view.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #2114567 -

I beieve my goal is to become exactly like the shamans as much as I possibly can. Hopefully, within the next five years I will be off the grid and my Inet posting days will be over. And my new life can begin. Living without "western" lies. Peace all.


Medicinebag

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #8549164 -

Swami said:
Oh well done!

Really? A dozen tangential and highly emotional issues were brought up that should have been in a new thread, while the core issue was danced over. Sorry to hear that you consider that good philosophical debate.

The fact remains that shamanic societies may have worked once upon a time, but fail miserably in today's world.
 



That was well put. Just as free market societies thrived before in the 1920's -1980's, Now there is no place for it.


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-----PILLAR-----
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Destruction is the purest form of Creation.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Pillar]
    #8550261 -

Shamanic cultures only failed in the view of the modern world.  Shaman's act as a link to the spirit world, connecting tribes to nature, allowing them to live in harmony with nature.  In that aspect Shaman's have not failed at all.  I think that the Shaman's have it all right, we have lost our spiritual connection and this disconnect from nature is causing irreversible harm to our planet.  We have lost our real spiritual connections, and we need a new breed of Shaman's to restore it.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Cannashroom]
    #8550269 -

You don't need a shaman to be connected to nature. You need a truly logical mind. We are from the earth and return to it. This seems true. Don't shit where you sleep. Understand how fear motivates unskillful action.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #8553635 -

Post deleted by LunarEclipse

Reason for deletion: yuk



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Cannashroom]
    #8553794 -

Cannashroom said:
Shamanic cultures only failed in the view of the modern world.  Shaman's act as a link to the spirit world, connecting tribes to nature, allowing them to live in harmony with nature.  In that aspect Shaman's have not failed at all.  I think that the Shaman's have it all right, we have lost our spiritual connection and this disconnect from nature is causing irreversible harm to our planet.  We have lost our real spiritual connections, and we need a new breed of Shaman's to restore it.


i have to say the true connections will never fade or go away theres a system of transmigration and communication of souls beyond these physical bodies. Its all about communion and union. Whats to say they higher forces didnt want the tribes that failed to the white man to fail. you talk about how they had high infant mortality rate why dont you really take a look at the western people. Whats to say that all of them werent just sacrifices to appease the gods for the long run I.E. now and the up comming future. 

Medicine men get their power from the gods or higher energies and let it be aliens(space invaders at times),ancestors,or currently living people on the other side of the world giving em a message. there is a balance pretty much and its being restored to one that suits everyone as one.

the hopi never had a problem with shit they had their prophecy of everyone joining and becoming one. no shit alot of people have to die alot of souls need to be put to rest and reformed in a new light.

there is what is right! and righteous always and there is whats not, sometimes whats right must go thru what appears to be wrong to stabilize and balance what was originally right and what was originally wrong. there really is no confusion ever unless your lieing to yourself or lieing to who your talking about cause your lieing to yourself which sometimes happens cause you dont know any better but, you will only not know better if you dont only seek righteousness


and as for the dont shit where you sleep, its more like dont cheat your wife or neightbor, cause you always gota shit where you sleep it just really depends how far away. suprising like plumbing is far grosser  then out houses cause all those shit particals stay in the air no matter how much you clean that shit at least with an out house that stuff its way more difusion into the air and you only gota visit for that moment and with proper ventalation that shit wont stink unless it drops out of you really stinky and from there on thats more of a diet thing. btw this shit paricles thing was on mythbusters the they put a tooth brush in the next room and it had shit matter on it but its not a harmful amount appearently its just there and shitty, but not shitty that for people to notice unless they do alot of tests to find out I.E. mythbusters people. Which is a burning example of modern culture Of stuck up people


btw theres more then one type of medicine man or shaman. some villages have both and one just does it for pretend while others dont and shit is not pretend at all



Medicine Man

Many distant miles away
Past the shores of ever dark
There stays a magic man
Who bears an evil mark
He helps all concerned
Those who come again return
Injecting lies while fires burn
The devil's heart
With angel's words
Have you wondered
What heaven's like?
He can show you in one night
Overwhelming with euphoric lift
To lure you to steal your gift

Intoxication
Seeping down to the bone
And there's no question
Where you have to go

Understand just take his hand
He's the medicine man

Once proud and fearless men
With desire in their eyes
Lost strong and fruitful lives
To self-indulgent ties
Their souls were dipped in venom
And put into a box
Then placed upon a crowded shelf
Where countless souls now rot
Have you ever wondered what hell's like?
He can take you there
Just one taste and you'll be back
And by the high you'll swear

Intoxication
Seeping down to the bone
And there's no question
Where you have to go

Understand just take his hand
He's the medicine man

It really depends if how far the adgenda of the medicine man goes into the future and what their true aim is you have shamans in south american treating cancer and other ones making a buck off tourists and ect.


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

Edited by thedudenj (06/23/08 11:01 AM)

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #8553961 -

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
Don't shit where you sleep.


What about pee?


Don't pee on your knee. (or into the wind)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Icelander]
    #8554530 -

ha ha you can pee into the wind dont pee against the wind silly. then it will hit you. when your peeing with the breeze the pee flys with it meaning your back is turned to it.  i agree not to pee on your knee tho.

also i guess it fails kinda cause when it comes down to it, it means the social sturcture isnt perfect as where the pigmi poeple werea and they were a tribe that didnt need a medicine man just the old tribal bong. they managed their shit together rather then being divided and having a person responsible for their health they all took it in on their own


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Icelander]
    #8555913 -

Is this whole discussion really necessary?
Wasn't shamanism used to heal spiritually rather than physically?

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Alma Mistica]
    #8556158 -

not at all its to heal both. also on that point physical problems happen cause physical ones either past or present. Take for example headaches or tension in the body. Your soul cries out to you in the form of that pain. a shaman can talk to you and give you ointment to relax those muscles and also to you why those muscles were so tense and what thats related to and then can help them heal the psychological issuse.

from there one can summerize that if you have a physical injury that in another area is of a similar nature cept you walked into it rather then your body walking you thru it. Its a bit hard to explain that i guess.


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #8556480 -

Post deleted by LunarEclipse

Reason for deletion: =



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #8556911 -

whats jim corce have to do with that, if anything about spiting in the wind its simliar to pissing on it just make sure when it goes down stream you dont hit anyone else or you will have a pissed off or spiten person. unleas your doing it for spite then i guess its alright but it makes you not that great of a person unless they are into strange shit like that then its your lover


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #14075733 -

Reading through these post almost offended me but definitely saddened me. Shamans have survived through the passing down of knowledge longer than most today's religions if not all of them. I know shamanism isn't actually a religion but I don't see how shamanism has failed. Many tribes survived the horrible injustices done on to them by the europeans. Also these tribes helped our western medicine get where it is today. Many plants that shamans have used have been identified and important chemicals have been isolated from them and turned into modernized medicine. IMO the doctors and nurses today may have surpassed  the physical healing powers of the traditional shaman but have forgotten the equally important spiritual healing process that the traditional medicine man posses. What kind of doctor will heal your spiritual problems these days? Only the shaman. One more thing I would like to add is that many people still practice shamanism in today's modern society. They are all around you. You just need to look closer and you will find that shamans are alive and well and still protect our communities.


--------------------
Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Cactilove]
    #14075739 -

Please don't squeeze the Shaman.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Cactilove]
    #14075798 -

Quote:
Many tribes survived the horrible injustices done on to them by the europeans.


Many Europeans survived the horrible injustices done on to them by the tribes.

Many tribes survived the horrible injustices done on to them by the other tribes.


--------------------

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14076143 -

OC what was that book about a bloke who did a shamanic apprentice you were saying about awhile back and how was it if you read it?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14076171 -

Are you talking about the video "The Shaman's Apprentice"?

http://mirandaproductions.com/shaman/


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14081303 -

I agree it goes both ways  but to say that europeons didn't do anything to the natives is plain ignorance

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Cactilove]
    #14081550 -

Huh?

Either way, how is a tribe getting its ass kicked into near or non-existence not a failure?


--------------------

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14084308 -

It's a failure for the assholes that destroyed a rich and beautiful culture. Just as great of loss to them as it is to the native people.


--------------------
Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.

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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Cactilove]
    #14084332 -

The Native tribes that survived before the evil White Man arrived did so often at the expense of weaker or more peaceful tribes that no one has heard of because they were wiped out.

Get mad all you want at The Great Spirit, but that is how life works. You are here because your ancestors kicked ass.


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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14087635 -

All I'm sayin is that if some mother fuckers no matter what skin color came to my land and tried to start some shit I would try and put and end to it.


--------------------
Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.

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