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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7619358 - 11/10/07 05:57 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I spoke without fungal permission - not even a note. :lipsrsealed: But then again, I am a ballsy MF...


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7619449 - 11/10/07 06:28 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

tisk tisk orgone, how presumptuous of you! Next time make sure to obtain formal, written permission from him before presuming to open your big mouth!


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7619469 - 11/10/07 06:33 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Ice, I don't think violence is going anywhere. Conflict will never cease to exist to matter how pure our unrealistic ideologies. So yeah, the Iroquois were pretty ruthless warriors, but the example of the 5 (and soon 6) nations getting together after generations of fighting to work out one of the most democratic, consensus based, free forms of social organization around is pretty cool. And they didn't even have to homogenize themselves, but remained distinct tribes. Back home in Europe, 'peace' was generally (historically) achieved through conquest and the supression of diverse groups. It's a shit strategy if you ask me.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619493 - 11/10/07 06:38 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

They became part of the Huron now.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619515 - 11/10/07 06:47 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Something that is painfully irritating to me is how many people think they can just become a shaman by deciding that they are one, or by paying for a class that guides them through some "initiation" process. The definition of a shaman is a person who is culturally recognized as being able to leave thier body, journey to the culture's spirit land, interact with spirits and return to thier body with knowledge. You cannot just decide to be a shaman and be one. If your culture does not have a shamanic tradition, you will never be one. You are of course free to experiment with your consciousness in whatever way you please, but it is terribly disrespectful to the shamanic cultures to ape thier traditions and pretend you can intitiate yourself into something you don't understand.

There is also the fact that the process of becoming a shaman (in cultures that have this pattern) is extremely difficult and often life threatening. I sincerely doubt that any of the weekend courses white folks take come even close to what is involved in the tradition.





Cute..


I bet you wish you were a shaman..


It is sad to see what you do to yourself, by trying to impose it on others...

:tomato:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619548 - 11/10/07 06:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think violence is going anywhere.

So true,and while I like the form of Govt they created it was only their lack of numbers that kept them from extending their territory one way or another.

Humans are human and their tribal considerations only extended to those in their tribe.

It's so easy to hold up other cultures as proof of how good it is somewhere else until you actually get to know all the details. Again humans are humans and cultures will fight it out for territory and other less concrete considerations every time.

I honestly have little respect for culture in general and am not enamored by the little guy any more than the big one except for rare exceptions and I'm really not sure about them.

As a famous man once said. "When I hear the word culture I reach for my revolver" -Adolph Hitler.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Gomp]
    #7619689 - 11/10/07 07:27 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:

Cute..


I bet you wish you were a shaman..


It is sad to see what you do to yourself, by trying to impose it on others...

:tomato:




:rolleyes: I don't wish in the slightest that I was a shaman. I'm not. I'm pretty fond of the life that I have, and although I have a lot of deep animosity for the planet-and-diversity destroying industial society in which I live, I am fully capable of living here and now, and see much potential around me for creating a satisfying life for myself. I don't need to wish I was a shaman. You can go right ahead and stuff your presumptuous insights right back up your ass, where they came from.

I'd like to know exactly what it is that I am 'doing to myself' by 'imposing it on others.' Defining words correctly? Respecting the integrity of cultures that are not my own by challenging cooptation and 'culture vulturing'?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619706 - 11/10/07 07:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

No flaming kiddies.:nono:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7619738 - 11/10/07 07:39 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't think violence is going anywhere.

So true,and while I like the form of Govt they created it was only their lack of numbers that kept them from extending their territory one way or another.

Humans are human and their tribal considerations only extended to those in their tribe.

It's so easy to hold up other cultures as proof of how good it is somewhere else until you actually get to know all the details. Again humans are humans and cultures will fight it out for territory and other less concrete considerations every time.

I honestly have little respect for culture in general and am not enamored by the little guy any more than the big one except for rare exceptions and I'm really not sure about them.

As a famous man once said. "When I hear the word culture I reach for my revolver" -Adolph Hitler.




Well, one reason band and tribe societies had lower populations is that they practiced birth control, so they were self limiting. They knew that it put too much strain on their landbase to have too many babies, so they took it easy. Women in hunter gatherer societies usually only give birth every 5 years or so. It's only when people shift to intensive agriculture that there is a population explosion and expansionist warring comes into play.

I'm not arguing in favour of the 'noble savage' view. That is just a skewed and biased as the opposite view. I'm just saying that I find it inspiring and interesting that there is a multitude of ways in which people have lived, and that fact alone proves to me that there is no 'right way to live' and thus we are not bound to what we have (which isn't working so well.)

I think Hitler was probably refering to culture in the sense of liberal Berlin and all the avant-garde jews and fags that were making great art and experimenting with sexual liberation in the 20's. He certainly was a fan of 'Volk' culture - Germanic mythology, Wagner, blood and soil, etc. He hated culture in the sense of liberal arts, not in the sense of a common identity and mythology shared by a group.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619779 - 11/10/07 07:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not arguing in favour of the 'noble savage' view. That is just a skewed and biased as the opposite view. I'm just saying that I find it inspiring and interesting that there is a multitude of ways in which people have lived, and that fact alone proves to me that there is no 'right way to live' and thus we are not bound to what we have (which isn't working so well.)


I agree totally that there is no right way to live. In fact although I don't prefer much of what goes on, my view is that if things weren't supposed to be this way then they would be different. That's how I interpret the Tao.

You're right about AH,  but I have always loved that quote and use it for my own purposes. You're the first one who ever called me on it.:blush:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7619996 - 11/10/07 08:50 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Supposed to be this way? Ice, I'm suprised at you! You should know better than anyone that there's no such think as "supposed to be." :smirk: Things are, and if we would prefer them to be otherwise we can act to alter them. (That doesn't mean we'll succeed, just that the option to try is out there.)

And as for Hitler, I caught you with your pants down on that one. :smirk: I have  I have to admit it's a pretty good quote.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7620147 - 11/10/07 09:56 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Your missing my point about Castaneda. He may very well(maybe) have been a huge liar or con man, BUT the way in which his ideas were presented and the ideas themselves are the single most useful self help ideas I have encountered. I have used them to shrug off alcoholism and gain mastery of my health and my profession. If I had never read Castaneda I would most likely still be a disgruntled and disenfranchised alcoholic with a severe weight and health problem...or maybe even dead. As it stands I have transcended those limitations in every way. He kindled in me a desire to know, and that is gold to me. So you see it doesn't matter what he did or said, but what he said to me. Healing is the essence of shamanism and the shaman must first heal the self before any other progress is made.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7620215 - 11/10/07 10:23 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I have repeatedly said that I think it's awesome if his writing has been inspiring to you or anyone else, and I would never try and take that away from you. I don't expect you to defend your interest in it, because just about anything that can inspire a person to grow into a stronger, healthier person is great. I only bother to bring up his sketchiness because I want to make it clear that he is not representing any culture accurately. It's awesome if a person takes personal lessons out of it, but it's not great to think that Don Juan really was a Yaqui shaman, or that what Castaneda talks about has anything to do with the realities of that, or any other, specific culture. That's all. I'm stoked for you that he has been so influential, and has helped you on your path to becoming the person you want to be.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7620220 - 11/10/07 10:25 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

As a side note, I think this is the only topic I've ever made that's elicited anywhere near this many responses!


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7620313 - 11/10/07 11:03 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If I had never read Castaneda I would most likely still be a disgruntled and disenfranchised alcoholic...




Now you are gruntled? :confused:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7620406 - 11/10/07 11:44 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Totally gruntled.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7620423 - 11/10/07 11:54 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

My culture is a mix of traditions that have been bastardized from various "pure" cultures, so it is fitting that our spiritual traditions reflect this. Ultimately the whole issue of whether something comes from a whole or specific culture is nothing more than elitism. Ideas are ideas...cultures are the dogma that various societies generate. In and of themselves cultures are ultimately irrelevant. Ideas are what have value. Culture is just empty programming. I question the fact that you continue to cling to the notion of what a "real" culturally pure shaman is and ascribe this false purity a value that is in reality empty. The native spiritual traditions of man are ours to do with as we see fit. Belonging to any culture other than "humanity" is not necessary to utilize these ideas.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7620442 - 11/11/07 12:03 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I am plagiarizing this entire paragraph for my new book.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7620483 - 11/11/07 12:26 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Just make sure I get a cut.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7620644 - 11/11/07 01:40 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Just make sure I get a cut.



What part of "plagiarize" don't you understand?


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