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Anonymous
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 Where Shamanism fails. 
#2101103 - 11/13/03 10:10 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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There is a way to live with earth and a way not to live with earth. We chose the way of earth.
And yet some aspects of Shamanism fail miserably. One such case is the "ghost dance" of the Sioux.
"In early October of 1890, Kicking Bear, a Minneconjou, visited Sitting Bull at Standing Rock. He told him of the visit he and his brother-in-law, Short Bull, had made to Nevada to visit Wovoka. They told him of the great number of other Indians who were there as well. They referred to Wovoka as the Christ and told of the Ghost Dance that they had learned and the way that the Christ had flown over them on their horseback ride back to the railroad tracks, teaching them Ghost Dance songs. And they told him of the phophecy that, next spring, when the grass was high, the earth would be covered with new soil, burying all the white men.The new soil would be covered with sweet grass, running water and trees; the great herds of buffalo and wild horses would return. All Indians who danced the Ghost Dance would be taken up into the air and suspended there while the new earth was being laid down. Then they would be replaced there, with the ghosts of their ancestors, on the new earth. Only Indians would live there then."
link
Taken up in the air? 
What were they thinking?
Obviously there are times when Shamanism is a dismal failure.
But does that mean that it is always a failure?
While the vast majority of natives were rubbed out on this continent we are still here. And many of us follow the old ways. Will we outlast the whites? No one can answer that question with any kind of authority.
Mitakuye Oyasin
Epelo
MM
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 sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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 Re: Where Shamanism fails. [Re: ]
#2101112 - 11/13/03 10:12 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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That sounds more like a motivational speech to me. Although, not very effective. 
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Where Shamanism fails. [Re: ]
#2101124 - 11/13/03 10:14 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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While the vast majority of natives were rubbed out on this continent we are still here.
And we (the Wasichu) are working on that. 
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Where Shamanism fails. [Re: sirreal]
#2101137 - 11/13/03 10:18 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, it culminated in the slaughter of nearly 300 Sioux at Wounded Knee. (the wound that will not heal)
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Anonymous
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Re: Where Shamanism fails. [Re: Swami]
#2101148 - 11/13/03 10:21 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Kola lecel ecun wo!
Hecanu ki, nitunkasila waniyang u ktelo.
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Anonymous
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to all my relations [Re: ]
#2101547 - 11/13/03 12:00 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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The battle of wounded knee. Is that the one of the battles Black Elk was in?
I dont think shamanism is realy a failur. If it gets people threw some tuff times it did its job. Even todays medicine isnt always successful.
Black elks prophacies came true if I am not mistaken. He was the man who talked about the land being taken over by roads and railways, right? He also talked about a new tribe that will carey on the tradidition. The Rainow Family. people of all colors walking the good path.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Where Shamanism fails. [Re: ]
#2101559 - 11/13/03 12:02 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Kola lecel ecun wo!
Hecanu ki, nitunkasila waniyang u ktelo.
Tatanka.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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jiva
dream serpent
Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 141
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Re: Where Shamanism fails. [Re: Swami]
#2102273 - 11/13/03 03:19 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Perhaps you're taking it too literal?
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i am another you
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
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 Re: Where Shamanism fails. [Re: ]
#2103268 - 11/13/03 08:02 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thank you Mr. Mushrooms! You brought out exactly what i was thinking!  
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What?
Edited by Zero7a1 (11/13/03 08:04 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: to all my relations [Re: ]
#2106163 - 11/14/03 11:59 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Black Elk was a great wichasha wakon (holy man) that lived during the Messiah Movement that sweep the Plains during the last part of the 19th century. He wasn't at Wounded Knee though. Most of the Sioux that were there were murdered.
Swami: Buffalo?
Le Cannupa ki le wakan yelo.
Epelo
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: to all my relations [Re: ]
#2106366 - 11/14/03 12:52 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sorry that my Lakota is so limited, but I gotta start somewhere.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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TheDarkSideof_Paco
Seeker
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Posts: 219
Loc: My basement
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: to all my relations [Re: Swami]
#2106611 - 11/14/03 02:06 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Im hungry
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"In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us."
Thich Nhat Hanh
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist
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Last seen: 1 hour, 28 minutes
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Re: to all my relations [Re: ]
#2107632 - 11/14/03 08:18 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Tonka truck Yani wang.
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(•_•)
<) )~ ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (> SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )> SOLDIERS
/ \
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: to all my relations [Re: ]
#2107650 - 11/14/03 08:24 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Is it true that Swami's Native American name can be translated to 'Throws Like A Girl?'
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: to all my relations [Re: Evolving]
#2107716 - 11/14/03 08:56 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Tee hee, you silly!
*drops voice one octave*
I mean, "Heh heh!"
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,865
Last seen: 2 months, 5 days
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Re: to all my relations [Re: Swami]
#2108191 - 11/15/03 12:35 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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"Tonka truck Yani wang. "
heh.. wang.
Anyway..
I think a lot of it was just motivated by hope. They were really confronting a horrible situation.. the only way they knew how to live was being destroyed before their eyes, and they could do nothing about it but die. In such a situation any answer, even one that under normal circumstances you might not agree with, becomes more than welcome
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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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Anonymous
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Re: to all my relations [Re: Swami]
#2110183 - 11/15/03 09:17 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hey, you guys are ruining a perfectly good thread. I want everyone to act serious now.
I mean it.
Really.
Ok?
Good
(cheap imitation ala Enter)
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medicinebag
Hunting
Registered: 11/15/03
Posts: 344
Loc: The land of The People
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Re: to all my relations [Re: ]
#2113143 - 11/16/03 09:15 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok,
First off. After you "die" you don't "die". Those that performed the ghost dance are living right next door to some of you and you can't see them>LOLO. There are a multitude of similar realities running along side this "reality". In those other realities We are living our lives. After the Murderers and Rapist performed their unholy acts in the name of Manifest Destiny, those that were "slain" woke up in the "promised lands" that the elders spoke of. They are living in peace and harmony in a "new" land. I can't prove any of this to you. You will have to "see" them and talk with them yourselves.
Medicinebag Choctaw Nation
P.s. The "Failure" you all are looking for didn't happen. What happened is they shamans made sure that their people would go into that next world. The world that only belongs to them. No one can penetrate its membrane with anger or hatred in their hearts. If you try to you will not see this world. THis world can only be penetrated by those that it was created for. What I am saying is that there are planes of existence, far from "death", right next door to you. In these planes of existence The PEOPLE are residing. Hunting, praying, living their lives without intrusion. Because no POWER hungry individual can enter this realm, it will always be a sanctuary.
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Noviseer
Percussion isFree
Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 3,994
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: to all my relations [Re: Swami]
#2113170 - 11/16/03 09:20 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said:
Tee hee, you silly!
*drops voice one octave*
I mean, "Heh heh!"
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_______________________________________________________________
namaste said:
no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
_________________________________________________________________
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medicinebag
Hunting
Registered: 11/15/03
Posts: 344
Loc: The land of The People
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Re: to all my relations [Re: medicinebag]
#2113174 - 11/16/03 09:20 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Mr. Mushrooms,
You been watching Thunderheart lately? LOL. I like that movie also. When Jimmy says that line it was great. Yes. We can choose to live with earth or not to live with earth. We choose earth. That line summs up my whole argument. They chose earth. They did not choose to fight to annahilate the whites. They fought to defend themselves after being attacked like animals. Some chose to "leave this realm for a new realm". A new home in earth. Not death like Swami suggests in his post concearning the fraudulence of Shamanism. But Life in a new realm. Where one can spend eternity if they wish. Living with earth. This plane of existence is not going to last much longer. When this plane crashes. You will see the other planes of existence and then get to choose which on suits you.
Medicinebag
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Anonymous
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Re: to all my relations [Re: medicinebag]
#2121703 - 11/19/03 01:40 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thunderheart and Dances with Wolves are two of my favorite movies. But being Native myself and living with the Lakota long before those movies were ever conceived of gives me the perspective from which I understand life.
Mitakuye Oyasin,
MM
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medicinebag
Hunting
Registered: 11/15/03
Posts: 344
Loc: The land of The People
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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: ]
#2121736 - 11/19/03 01:57 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Good to hear.
I myself am a member of a Nation, as well. The Choctaw Nation. While we haven't got as much press lately. I would like to say that the Choctaw Code Talkers were the first code talkers during WWI against the Germans. But, since the southwest is so pretty and everyone knows about the Navaho's they made WindTalkers. It should have been about the Original Code Talkers. But maybe one day we will get our place in the movies. I can't think of one Choctaw movie I have ever seen. So maybe one day.
For all you unbelievers that shamanism failed. Here is one of our legends from The People (Chatah) or Choctaw. This legend and others can be found at choctawnation.com for references to the exact details im leaving out just to shorten the story for this post.
We have a legend about a Giant light skinned man who whore Horns upon his head. A few of these giant, light skinned men, came into our villages and we accepted them for a time. Then after they left, the the Minko or leader went to the mountain with his Staff given to him by Father Sun and asked Father sun what to do. After being told, we gathered all of our things and hid in large caverns. For we were told that the strangers would come back and murder us all. And thats what happened to some of us that didn't make it to the caves in time. Our sister tribes the Creeks and Chickasaws were being tore down by disease and war with these Giants as well. We hid in those caves for a very long time, according to the legend for years. Then a boy came of age. That boy told the council he had a way to make the Giants leave who had ran us into the caves because we could not penetrate their "skin" with our arrows. This boy though spiritual contact, devised a way to take poisonous mushrooms and a local Datura and made a poison for blowdarts. We had never used a blowgun before this. At night, the warriors and young boys would sneak out of the caverns and creap up to the Giants tents. They would shoot them with the poison blowdarts at night while they were asleep. In the morning when the Giants woke they noticed some of them had died in their sleep. After a few weeks of them dying in their sleep the condemned the land as evil and headed back north from where they came. These Giants have to be those Vikings that were lost in the new world. As far west as Oklahoma Rhune stones have been dugup on river banks. The vikings were the only ones that could have left that kind of writing on a stone. The Choctaws at that time were in Southeast Mississipi. From that legend I feel we had already won the first ivasion. I don't know what happened the next time. I guess there were too many Giants to kill in their sleep. LOL> later.
Medicinebag
Edited by medicinebag (11/19/03 02:25 AM)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Here is one of our legends from The People (Chatah) or Choctaw. This legend and others can be found at choctawnation.com for references to the exact details im leaving out just to shorten the story for this post.
This story was written down long after the "fact" and is totally unverifiable.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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medicinebag
Hunting
Registered: 11/15/03
Posts: 344
Loc: The land of The People
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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: Swami]
#2121830 - 11/19/03 02:45 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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What Prophecy are you refering to? the story is about making poison darts via shamansim to kill an enemy. Thats what the story is about. If you would have taken the time to read it instead of the time to mock me, you would have seen that.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Quote:
medicinebag said:
If you would have taken the time to read it instead of the time to mock me, you would have seen that.
If you would take the time to read Swami's words and attempt to understand them it would really help you a lot. Here's what he stated, 'This story was written down long after the "fact" and is totally unverifiable.' That is not mocking, if you would have comprehended his words you would have seen that.
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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medicinebag
Hunting
Registered: 11/15/03
Posts: 344
Loc: The land of The People
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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: Evolving]
#2122974 - 11/19/03 02:15 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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That is exactly my point, evolving.
You only listened to what Swami had to say and did not read the legend youself throughly. There is no Prophecy in the story. The story is about shamansim and using that to defeat an enemy. Not a prophecy about whites. The story is oral. Everyone (my people) agrees on it. It was not written down until fairly recently. We did not have a written language. I think you are getting us confused with the Chereokee and Sequouyah. Later.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Quote:
medicinebag said:
You only listened to what Swami had to say...
No, I READ what Swami had to say.
Quote:
and did not read the legend youself throughly.
Wrong again.
Quote:
There is no Prophecy in the story.
Did Swami claim there was prophecy in the story?. Again, this is what he stated, 'This story was written down long after the "fact" and is totally unverifiable.'
Quote:
The story is about shamansim and using that to defeat an enemy. Not a prophecy about whites.
I read it, I know. As Swami stated, 'This story was written down long after the "fact" and is totally unverifiable.'
Quote:
I think you are getting us confused with the Chereokee and Sequouyah.
How did you come to that unfounded (and wrong) conclusion?
--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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strangebrew
Registered: 04/28/03
Posts: 45
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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Re: Where Shamanism fails. [Re: jiva]
#2124024 - 11/19/03 10:05 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
jiva said:
Perhaps you're taking it too literal?
exactly.
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i've always been mad like the most of us have
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Anonymous
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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: Swami]
#2124594 - 11/20/03 08:22 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said:
Here is one of our legends from The People (Chatah) or Choctaw. This legend and others can be found at choctawnation.com for references to the exact details im leaving out just to shorten the story for this post.
This story was written down long after the "fact" and is totally unverifiable.
Incorrect. If artifacts were found that verified the story it is verifiable.
medicinebag: Read Swami's posts carefully before you respond. He likes to incite people by playing with words. He can't help himself.
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Grav
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: ]
#2124690 - 11/20/03 09:14 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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If i remember correctly, Black Elk himself had visions of immense victory of his people over the whites right before Wounded Knee.
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medicinebag
Hunting
Registered: 11/15/03
Posts: 344
Loc: The land of The People
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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: Grav]
#2126340 - 11/20/03 10:18 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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In early October of 1890, Kicking Bear, a Minneconjou, visited Sitting Bull at Standing Rock. He told him of the visit he and his brother-in-law, Short Bull, had made to Nevada to visit Wovoka. They told him of the great number of other Indians who were there as well. They referred to Wovoka as the Christ and told of the Ghost Dance that they had learned and the way that the Christ had flown over them on their horseback ride back to the railroad tracks, teaching them Ghost Dance songs. And they told him of the phophecy that, next spring, when the grass was high, the earth would be covered with new soil, burying all the white men.The new soil would be covered with sweet grass, running water and trees; the great herds of buffalo and wild horses would return. All Indians who danced the Ghost Dance would be taken up into the air and suspended there while the new earth was being laid down. Then they would be replaced there, with the ghosts of their ancestors, on the new earth. Only Indians would live there then."
And everything he said came true. Those that partook in the Ghost dance and "died" reawoke in that promised land. Notice the wording, A NEW soil. will be laid down, sweet grass and all the animals would return. That is most definately a metaphor for a new land not this land. But a promised land. Right now those that "died" are living their lives in peace and harmony in that promised land. I hope to see them soon. Anybody else think so?
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Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: Grav]
#2126366 - 11/20/03 10:29 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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If i remember correctly, Black Elk himself had visions of immense victory of his people over the whites right before Wounded Knee.
verification?
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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.
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medicinebag
Hunting
Registered: 11/15/03
Posts: 344
Loc: The land of The People
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Re: Mr. Musrhooms [Re: Jellric]
#2126380 - 11/20/03 10:34 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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All Indians who danced the Ghost Dance would be taken up into the air and suspended there while the new earth was being laid down. Then they would be replaced there, with the ghosts of their ancestors, on the new earth. Only Indians would live there then."
I hope they let us Half-Breeds get in too.
I wonder if I'll have to have my Roll number?
Edited by medicinebag (11/20/03 10:35 PM)
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Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
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Re: Where Shamanism fails. [Re: ]
#2126433 - 11/20/03 10:58 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Another great movie is 'The Last of the Mohicans'.
I am part Choctaw. My own view on the Ghost Dance was that it was a cultural adaptation for the diehards to keep hope alive. Those who couldn't imagine any other way of life clung to the false hope it gave. The tragedy demonstrates what happens when a culture is overwhelmed with change too rapidly to adapt. (Culture shock).
But some were able to adapt, which is why my hero of the time was Black Elk. He was a shaman totally immersed in Native American culture, but he saw the writing on the wall and became a Christian. Through his example he led many to transition into the new world while still maintaining their spiritual core. His spiritual attainment was revealed by his adherance to the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. Spirit over dogma and ritual. The Pathless path.
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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.
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medicinebag
Hunting
Registered: 11/15/03
Posts: 344
Loc: The land of The People
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Re: Where Shamanism fails. [Re: Jellric]
#2126460 - 11/20/03 11:11 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah, that last one was an attempt at lightening up things around here. So far it has been kinda "tip-toeish". But I see your point Jellric.
Exactly, since the Ghost Dance was a multi-tribe thing, its not about "who" gets in to this plane of existence is about ones attitude. You can'nt get their by forcing your way in, you must have the proper attitude when entering this realm.
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