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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: eve69]
    #2100838 - 11/13/03 10:21 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Very good points.

Peace


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: eve69]
    #2100898 - 11/13/03 10:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The resurgence of Shamanic practice is but one sign that Technophilia is failing.Yes technology while appearing a great boon has not solved one major human condition,not hunger,disease,war,hatred,greed nothing.
Shamanism by it's very nature deals with the human condition.Gnostic Christian Shaman are emerging with a practical paradigm for life,will it be taken or will the flashing lights and plastic beads of technology ride us out of our very humanity?
WR:rasta:


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To old for this place


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2100923 - 11/13/03 10:58 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Technology has the potential to solve all of the things you mentioned with the exception Greed and war. Technology is not bad. repeat ad nauseam!


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2100936 - 11/13/03 11:05 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
The resurgence of Shamanic practice is but one sign that Technophilia is failing.Yes technology while appearing a great boon has not solved one major human condition,not hunger,disease,war,hatred,greed nothing.



... and how long before technology arose did shamanism have to solve hunger, disease, war, hatred, and greed? The persistence of these and the turning of humanity to other means to try to alleviate them must say something about the usefullness of shamanism.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2100966 - 11/13/03 11:17 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Technology has the potential to solve all of the things you mentioned with the exception Greed and war. Technology is not bad 



Technology has NO POWER TO DO ANYTHING! only those who weild it do.
As I said when bell labs and burning man share validity then perhaps until then NOTHING has changed but the toys we play with.
WR:rasta:


--------------------
To old for this place


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2101029 - 11/13/03 11:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Perhaps Shamanism developed valuable facets of human understanding that are not currently embraced by mainstream society. Ideas that didnt need a technological footing to be worthwhile and that can exist just as easily in a technological society. If these concepts were reintergrated into society to work together with our technological prowess, we may see improvements in many areas of life.

The whole idea of comparing shamanism to our society and declaring our society a success and shamanism a failure is pointlessly simplistic anyway.

PEACE


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Anonymous

Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2101030 - 11/13/03 11:44 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

This is why we missed you, Swam.  You bring us good discussions. :smile:

Cheers,

MM


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2101033 - 11/13/03 11:46 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Technology has NO POWER TO DO ANYTHING!




maybe I should have said facilitated. Our "power" is severely reduced without it, thats for sure.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2101052 - 11/13/03 11:52 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Perhaps Shamanism developed valuable facets of human understanding that are not currently embraced by mainstream society.



Which begs the question, why aren't these 'valuable facets of human understanding' not embraced by mainstream society? If they are valuable, surely more people would embrace them. After all, shamanism had most of human history to prove it's value but has largely been abandoned.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2101069 - 11/13/03 11:58 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Because of the power mongers. Shamanism does not serve their purpose.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: sirreal]
    #2101089 - 11/13/03 12:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

But couldn't it serve the purposes of the average shmoe? Take a look at the use of herbs, an ancient practice which still persists to this day and is actually gaining in popularity in western cultures (well, at least in the U.S.). Scientists have established VALIDITY to some claims attributed to various herbs by testing of chemicals derived from them or the whole herbs themselves.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2101101 - 11/13/03 12:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
But couldn't it serve the purposes of the average shmoe? Take a look at the use of herbs, an ancient practice which still persists to this day and is actually gaining in popularity in western cultures (well, at least in the U.S.). Scientists have established VALIDITY to some claims attributed to various herbs by testing of chemicals derived from them or the whole herbs themselves.





Exactly. some of the things they practiced are still viable today. In spite of what the patent crazy pharm. companys want.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: sirreal]
    #2101109 - 11/13/03 12:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

sirreal said:
Exactly. some of the things they practiced are still viable today. In spite of what the patent crazy pharm. companys want. 



Don't get me started on a political tangent about the undue legislative influence of the medical industries. :mad:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2101116 - 11/13/03 12:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

O.K.

I will not. :grin: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflineNirvhead
-State of Art-

Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 313
Loc: WA State, USA
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2101790 - 11/13/03 03:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
the Indians were doing just fine
Many starving in the winter, tribes attacking other tribes, high infant mortality - these things are "doing just fine"?

until the Europeans wiped them out.
Showing that their Medicine Men were unable to protect them; so perhaps their Ancestors had no power.





I have a hard time agreeing at all with the accepted views of what constitutes "doing just fine". Why is it so bad to live in a low tech society? When will life be "good enough"? Is it all worthless until they create the miracle drug that allows us to live forever?

I do not think that a high infant mortality rate (subjective) and other such things are necessarily bad. Obviously it causes grief, but it's all part of the experience of life. I would love to live in a society without all these "precious" commodities - TV, computers, smart bombs, etc. Not that these things are bad either (excepting the bombs), but the lazy, self-absorbed lifestyle that most people have embraced is only helped further along by a comfortable existence. The rate at which technology is growing is being surpassed by the rate at which consumerism and mind control is spreading - and all thanks to this wonderful technology. Eventually it will only lead to something worse than what we had before. A bunch of fat-ass, money-hungry corporate whores led by the morons with the loudest voice. No medicine man will be able to help us then either.


--------------------
Like a fiend in a cloud
With howling woe,
After night I do croud
And with night will go;
I turn my back to the east,
From whence comforts have increas'd;
For light doth seize my brain
With frantic pain.


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OfflineIamHungry
Stranger
Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 220
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Nirvhead]
    #2101827 - 11/13/03 03:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

does it matter why shamanism failed? it happened, and theres no going back. lets think of what could happen in the future instead of arguing about something we cant prove.


--------------------
Here comes the sun, do n do do,
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright...


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Invisiblebuckwheat
Cynically Insane

Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: IamHungry]
    #2101888 - 11/13/03 03:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

with all this talk about modern medicine i would like to say that modern medicine causes more harm than good.like the overpopulation of our planet may be because of modern medicine. it saves lives but in the long run over population will kill more humans than anything else.some diseases are natures way of dealing with overpopulation, like AIDS a sexually transmited disease. modern medicine is a double edged sword.high birth rates would concern me more than lower birth rates in this present overpopulation situation we are in.

Following natures way and accpet your and loved ones death(for the good of humanity as a whole).would be more benefial than trying to save evrey one witch is pure greed.death is nothing to be afraid of.


Edited by mindcandy (11/13/03 03:35 PM)


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Offlinejiva
dream serpent

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 141
Loc: everywhere all the time
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: buckwheat]
    #2102279 - 11/13/03 05:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Like all spirituality it got bogged down by tradition that was passed down through the generations. As exploration became dogma, evolution stopped and stagnated and was cut down to be reborn anew.


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i am another you


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2102340 - 11/13/03 05:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

GazzBut said:
Perhaps Shamanism developed valuable facets of human understanding that are not currently embraced by mainstream society.



Which begs the question, why aren't these 'valuable facets of human understanding' not embraced by mainstream society? If they are valuable, surely more people would embrace them. After all, shamanism had most of human history to prove it's value but has largely been abandoned.



This post seems to assume that most people are rational enough to recognize what is valuable and what is not. In a society in which people buy Britney Spears albums and SUV's and support George W. Bush, I see no evidence of any recognition of true value.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2102697 - 11/13/03 07:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

So, shamanism delivers less tangible benefits (is less valuable) than Britney Spears albums, SUV's and support for George W. Bush...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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