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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7621099 - 11/11/07 07:12 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Call them what you want. The same 'archetype' arises in almost every culture in every time.
I like celtic druids very much, for example. They are my mind brothers in culture, of the shamans.
Shaman only has become the famous word for this kind of human kind of existence, because it seems this specific siberian tribe was studied primarily. Then the similarities to those in south america were recognized and flux the connections were made to call all those 'people' like that. I think there are many many words in different cultures for this specific kind of human way of existence. I am just too lazy to look it up.
Maybe, modern doctors originally were meant to be the shamans of our present western society. They only left out the psychological aspect of human health on their way to the modern world. Now psychologists have to make their way towards medicinal knowledge. Same for spiritual knowledge.
Castaneda may only be a bridge from that 'shamanistic' archetype of a 'healer' of what he experienced in his life (with this specific indian tribe), mixed with his own subjectivity (also about this 'concept') and then crossed over to the american culture which was in need of some new age-ish 'coloring' of this subject at these times.

BTW:In the last consequence, one could even call Yeshua Ben Miriam (whatever spelling, if this guy existed) a shaman.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (11/11/07 07:27 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7621230 - 11/11/07 10:12 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Supposed to be this way? Ice, I'm suprised at you! You should know better than anyone that there's no such think as "supposed to be." :smirk: Things are, and if we would prefer them to be otherwise we can act to alter them. (That doesn't mean we'll succeed, just that the option to try is out there.)

And as for Hitler, I caught you with your pants down on that one. :smirk: I have  I have to admit it's a pretty good quote.




You are incorrect or you misunderstand me. We are not in charge of anything but how we choose to interpet and feel about events. The rest is the Tao and if things happen in a certain way then they couldn't have happened in any other,(or they would have). So when I say "supposed" to be I am acknowledging things as they really are. It's like saying the sun is "supposed"  to shine on the earth, because it does. We can't really alter that.

Do you know Hitler and I share the same birth date. 4/20! :satansmoking:Time to light up.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7621233 - 11/11/07 10:15 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Don Juan really was a Yaqui shaman,

Castaneda never made any such statement. I thought you read the books?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7621235 - 11/11/07 10:17 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
My culture is a mix of traditions that have been bastardized from various "pure" cultures, so it is fitting that our spiritual traditions reflect this. Ultimately the whole issue of whether something comes from a whole or specific culture is nothing more than elitism. Ideas are ideas...cultures are the dogma that various societies generate. In and of themselves cultures are ultimately irrelevant. Ideas are what have value. Culture is just empty programming. I question the fact that you continue to cling to the notion of what a "real" culturally pure shaman is and ascribe this false purity a value that is in reality empty. The native spiritual traditions of man are ours to do with as we see fit. Belonging to any culture other than "humanity" is not necessary to utilize these ideas.




So right on. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7621773 - 11/11/07 02:03 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Supposed to be this way? Ice, I'm suprised at you! You should know better than anyone that there's no such think as "supposed to be." :smirk: Things are, and if we would prefer them to be otherwise we can act to alter them. (That doesn't mean we'll succeed, just that the option to try is out there.)

And as for Hitler, I caught you with your pants down on that one. :smirk: I have  I have to admit it's a pretty good quote.




You are incorrect or you misunderstand me. We are not in charge of anything but how we choose to interpet and feel about events. The rest is the Tao and if things happen in a certain way then they couldn't have happened in any other,(or they would have). So when I say "supposed" to be I am acknowledging things as they really are. It's like saying the sun is "supposed"  to shine on the earth, because it does. We can't really alter that.

Do you know Hitler and I share the same birth date. 4/20! :satansmoking:Time to light up.:thumbup:




Well, you're a determinist and I'm a libetarian.

It's undeniable that things have happened as they have happened, but rather than believing that there was no other way things could have happened, I tend to  think that the past is almost arbitrary at times. Things occur sometimes by fluke or chance. Hitler was almost assassinated by a bomb timed to go of on the middle of a speech he was to give, but his train stalled and he was late. He was almost never late, but he was that night. Fascists are famed for running thier trains on time! That one chance fuckup inextricably changed the course of history, or rather allowed it to continue on it's path rather than be radically altered. It's unfortunate.

There is no "should be" or "couldn't have been otherwise" there is just what has been and what currently is. The future unfolds in front of us with a certain realm of possibility already written upon it, due to the momentum and trajectory of the past and present. But there is much room for the agency of willfull groups and individuals to mark upon it. History is like a locamotive charging into the abyss, but people can choose to wave it along, or be bandits. I agree that much is determined, but human agency is a distinct possibility, realized through breaking down socialization.



I read the books like 5 years ago. Sorry if I forget the details.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7621878 - 11/11/07 02:46 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

No matter what you say could have happened the facts state otherwise and always have and always will.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7621988 - 11/11/07 03:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Things did happen the way they did, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been any other way, or that things are the way they are because they are supposed to be the way they are. But if determinism makes you happy, than we'll have to agree to disagree.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7622002 - 11/11/07 03:27 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Yes it does mean it couldn't have been any other way. You don't seem to understand that your position is theory and has never been shown to be possible. On the other hand my position has always proved itself to be true.

Life is the way it is and can be no other way. This is always true and will always show it self to be true. It's the Tao. There is no way to change what has happened and that is because it was "supposed" to happen and it was supposed to happen because it did. There is no way around this. Any thing else is mind games based on delusion and misunderstanding.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/11/07 03:30 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622005 - 11/11/07 03:28 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Do you know Hitler and I share the same birth date.




Yeah, but did you hafta mimic his ludicrous moustache?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7622016 - 11/11/07 03:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Do you know Hitler and I share the same birth date.




Yeah, but did you hafta mimic his ludicrous moustache?



He copied that off of Charlie Chaplain anyway.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7622045 - 11/11/07 03:44 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Did you know that CC and AH were related?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622126 - 11/11/07 04:07 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yes it does mean it couldn't have been any other way. You don't seem to understand that your position is theory and has never been shown to be possible. On the other hand my position has always proved itself to be true.

Life is the way it is and can be no other way. This is always true and will always show it self to be true. It's the Tao. There is no way to change what has happened and that is because it was "supposed" to happen and it was supposed to happen because it did. There is no way around this. Any thing else is mind games based on delusion and misunderstanding.




You don't seem to understand that your position is just as theoretical as any other, and that no matter what position you take on anything, it's all just mind games.

My view is consistent and reasonable, as it is based on the fact that people have the ability to make choices, and do. When you make a choice do you feel that it couldn't possibly be any other way? That it is the only choice you could have possibly made? I certainly don't feel that way at all. The thing that's scary about choice is that once you've done it, there's no going back and choosing differently. But that doesn't negate the fact that, in the moment before a choice has been made, one is able to go either way. The past cannot be changed, but that does not negate the fact that every single person could have made different choices. They didn't, and here we are. There is no changing what has already be done. But this does not mean that anything is "supposed" to be anything at all. Things are the way they are, because they are. "Supposed to" doesn't have anything to do with it.


Edited by NiamhNyx (11/11/07 04:19 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622162 - 11/11/07 04:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Did you know that CC and AH were related?




Carlos and Adolph?


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7622170 - 11/11/07 04:18 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7622211 - 11/11/07 04:29 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

One may think they are able to go either way but they never do, they always go one way. And this is the way things are and the evidence for this is that things went that way and no other. Thus the Tao continues on [it's] way, forever creating exactly what is needed for it's fulfillment.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7622215 - 11/11/07 04:30 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Did you know that CC and AH were related?




Carlos and Adolph?




You little shit. I was using that as a set up for silversoul. :rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622228 - 11/11/07 04:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

:blush:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622234 - 11/11/07 04:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I find these debates about free will vs. determinism are based on verbal gymnastics with no side really making any intelligible argument. Free will can be said to exist to the extent that we have the experience of making choices and rightly hold people responsible for the choices they make. Beyond that, who cares?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7622245 - 11/11/07 04:35 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Come on, NN. Don't be afraid to dip your cute painted toe into my "Amazon Magic" thread. It is about a 'real' shaman, not some theoretical construct. It was written by Jaya Bear, the widow of famed Hopi shaman, Sun Bear.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7622293 - 11/11/07 04:47 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I find these debates about free will vs. determinism are based on verbal gymnastics with no side really making any intelligible argument.  Free will can be said to exist to the extent that we have the experience of making choices and rightly hold people responsible for the choices they make.  Beyond that, who cares?




I care. That's why I debate the idea. :wink: I have no choice but to care until I don't and I have no choice about when I don't care because it will happen when it is supposed to. Shall we dance?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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