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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Shamanism
    #7589443 - 11/02/07 10:56 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Something that is painfully irritating to me is how many people think they can just become a shaman by deciding that they are one, or by paying for a class that guides them through some "initiation" process. The definition of a shaman is a person who is culturally recognized as being able to leave thier body, journey to the culture's spirit land, interact with spirits and return to thier body with knowledge. You cannot just decide to be a shaman and be one. If your culture does not have a shamanic tradition, you will never be one. You are of course free to experiment with your consciousness in whatever way you please, but it is terribly disrespectful to the shamanic cultures to ape thier traditions and pretend you can intitiate yourself into something you don't understand.

There is also the fact that the process of becoming a shaman (in cultures that have this pattern) is extremely difficult and often life threatening. I sincerely doubt that any of the weekend courses white folks take come even close to what is involved in the tradition.


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Offlineaaei67
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7589493 - 11/02/07 11:12 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, come on. If someone wants to call themselves a Shaman, they're free to do it, it doesn't mean you have to recognize or respect that. Someone who calls themselves a shaman is a) a shaman or b) some kid who takes some drugs and wants to find a "cool" way to justify it. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch over. I mean all this with total respect, by the way


--------------------
"LSD is really baby blood"

danlennon3 said:
whoever isn't permanently tripping just isn't paying attention


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OfflinePsychedelicPhish
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Re: Shamanism [Re: aaei67]
    #7589517 - 11/02/07 11:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

i feel your pain man, people are like that with everything though


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7589518 - 11/02/07 11:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Please explain why a person must have shamanic tradition in their culture to be a shaman.

Not that I really care, I don't believe in shamanism. But just for the sake of arguement.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7589568 - 11/02/07 11:39 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

People are free to call themselves whatever they want, but it doesn't mean that that's what they are. I can tell people I am the Pope, but that doesn't make me the Pope.


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Invisiblebudmanman
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7589634 - 11/02/07 11:59 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I am insane


--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: budmanman]
    #7589738 - 11/03/07 12:45 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

i have a friend who thinks he's a shaman because he eats lots of mushrooms. i am a shaman because i eat lots of mushrooms...but my friend isnt...just joking, neither of us are shamans. anyway, shamanism can be a broad category. the reason we dont have shamans in our society is because we are so incredibally materialistis, we have to ritual or initiation, we are just devoid of the entire concept. People of our culture, however, can participate in shamanic activity, but doing so takes a hell of a lot more than just taking a class or reading a book, it would have to involve an actual initiation in the truest sense, something that is really so incredibly elusive. a person cant necessarily "decide" to become a shaman, and the be a shaman, they need to be "ushered in" somehow. If one is really interested in the ideas of shamanism, a good place to start is Marcea Eliade's "shamanism: archaic techniques of ecstacy" which is what shamanism is in its most basic form, inducing ecstacy in order to (primarily) cure sickness and disease, although many other tasks are undertaken by that shaman to the aid of the community which he/she is a part of.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7589780 - 11/03/07 12:58 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

If you know this then you should recognize your blatant misuse of the term shamanism. Only ONE culture in the world practices shamanism. That would be the tribal Siberian culture. This is THE ONLY shamanic culture. Native Americans would be very quick to point out that the word shaman does not describe the practitioners of their spiritual traditions, and to use that word is very disrespectful. However we recognize the commonalities shared by many primitive cultures and we use the Siberian term shaman as a general description of that type of practice. Likewise, I recognize that many ideas and techniques used by these traditions are useful to me, and I engage in their practice to achieve a desired end. Getting hung up on labels is an ego game which is best avoided.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinebbaeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7589803 - 11/03/07 01:08 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Huehuecoyotl i agree with you 100% percent, and yes the word shaman does strictly come from siberian origins and i was using the word as a generalisation for what it denotes.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7589805 - 11/03/07 01:08 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Our culture doesn't have shamanism because we are a totally different kind of culture than those that have it. We are a modern state society, and cultures with shamanism tend to be somewhere between hunter-gatherer -> chiefdom level societies. The type of society we have doesn't have a place for the social role of a shaman. Whether one likes this or not, it is the circumstances under which we live.

Anyone is welcome to participate in what may be called 'shamanic activity' - taking psychedelic drugs, dancing themselves into trance, etc. with the intention of entering a spirit world, communicating with spirits and bringing useful knowledge back. But it is simply disrespectful to these traditions for one to call themselves a shaman. We lack the appropriate context. It is important to remember that a shaman is culturally recognized as such. This is key. Thier social role exists because everyone else recognizes it. It is part of a whole.

They recieve a great deal of training in apprenticeship to another shaman including the entire mythology of thier culture, vast knowledge of medicines and the causes of illness, and the techniques of entering trance states. It's a lot more involved than just eating a lot of mushrooms.


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Offlinebbaeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7589814 - 11/03/07 01:10 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

once again, i absolutely agree wholeheartedly. you are right and ther is no argument here NiamhNyx


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7589823 - 11/03/07 01:14 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Huehue, I recognize that the term comes from the Tungus of Siberia. But it is reasonable, with consideration of the differences between various cultures, to use the term to refer to a particular pattern that appears worldwide. There are common features of the role that are shared in every culture that has it. It is incredibly widespread. I would never deny anyone use of the techniques, I am only arguing that it is disrespectful to claim the title.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7589944 - 11/03/07 02:27 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

not only that, but to claim the title without proper context is completely fallacious


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7590767 - 11/03/07 01:42 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I'm glad that we can agree. I'm almost suprised (and, admittedly, a little disappointed) that there hasn't been one poster in here arguing that they are a shaman because they 'felt a calling' and took a weekend course.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7590813 - 11/03/07 01:57 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

...


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OfflineBrandNoob
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7590830 - 11/03/07 02:03 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Gotta love dependent origination. This is a good thread.


--------------------
All posts were channeled through the user by typing the thoughts of telepathic beings.  All photos are of paranormal origin and do not represent the physical world, as we know it.  BrandNoob shall not be held accountable for the actions of deceased or hyperdimensional individuals.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: BrandNoob]
    #7590832 - 11/03/07 02:04 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

What is dependent origination???


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OfflineBrandNoob
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7590876 - 11/03/07 02:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

As I understand, it's essentially saying that the two things being talked about cannot be described without the context of the other. You cannot describe an object without describing its environment. You may discuss its height, color and general outline - but none of those mean anything without their surrounding context. The height is irrelevant without the heights of other things (or a unit of measure) to compare to. The end of the object is meaningless without the air surrounding it.

There is no shaman without a culture that recognizes the shaman, there is no culture that recognizes a shaman without the existence of the shaman.

What I find interesting is that since our society doesn't respect voyagers of the inner/other realm, an entire subset of society (the psychedelic counterculture) has arisen. Populated with mainly sight-seers and tourists of the mind/soul, there are some recognized individuals who are known to be particularly adept travelers of the spirit. Would not these individuals meet the (non-Siberian) definition of "shaman" that was given above by various posters?


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All posts were channeled through the user by typing the thoughts of telepathic beings.  All photos are of paranormal origin and do not represent the physical world, as we know it.  BrandNoob shall not be held accountable for the actions of deceased or hyperdimensional individuals.


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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7590948 - 11/03/07 02:39 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Something that is painfully irritating to me is how many people think they can just become a shaman by deciding that they are one, or by paying for a class that guides them through some "initiation" process. The definition of a shaman is a person who is culturally recognized as being able to leave thier body, journey to the culture's spirit land, interact with spirits and return to thier body with knowledge. You cannot just decide to be a shaman and be one. If your culture does not have a shamanic tradition, you will never be one. You are of course free to experiment with your consciousness in whatever way you please, but it is terribly disrespectful to the shamanic cultures to ape thier traditions and pretend you can intitiate yourself into something you don't understand.

There is also the fact that the process of becoming a shaman (in cultures that have this pattern) is extremely difficult and often life threatening. I sincerely doubt that any of the weekend courses white folks take come even close to what is involved in the tradition.




word man very fucking true Damn kids and that includes you 40 year old man that goes to one of these thigns and thinks he is.

to become a true medicine man you have to constantly do the shit and be born with it in you. if you learning from someone who your not a decendant from of how to be a medicine man then your not. if you are one and your learning cross culturely practices thats differnt.
a few key things in being one you tend to heal people truely even physical wounds not just spiritual, because healing physical wounds can lead to healing the soul. also you need your tribe,group of people, what ever the fuck they call them selves these days.

i have to say having a healing circle is an amazing feeling but it requires alot of faith and trust. and half the people that claim to be a shaman arnt worthy of that


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


Edited by thedudenj (11/03/07 02:43 PM)


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7591195 - 11/03/07 03:50 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

, but it is terribly disrespectful to the shamanic cultures

This is a problem for me. My "pretending" to be a shaman or whatever is my own business however it turns out. Disrespecting a culture would IMO be killing them off. Are these cultures so fragile that doing something that they don't agree with hurts them? It only does if they let it. Cultures are made up of people and people need to be responsible for their emotional states.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7592166 - 11/03/07 09:18 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I know this, but if you claim cultural purity as a virtue then should you not be true to it? How can you claim others show disrespect when you yourself are demonstrating this self same disrespect? However, I enjoy the freedom to express myself in any way I please or call myself whatever I please. If I want to be The Grand Pubba Of Shamanic Trans-Dimensional Universes then I will embody that to it's fullest extent.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7592435 - 11/03/07 10:29 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

How am I demonstrating disrespect? The generalized use of the word shaman? Come on Hue, you know as well as I do that the word is used generally because it's a lot easier than listing off the title every single culture has for the role. The same essential pattern exists in every single one of the cultures that practices it, with a great deal of elaboration and this is why the word is useful. There's a difference between using a word for the sake of efficacy and ignorantly lumping diverse cultures together as one due to basic similarities. I realize there are major differences between the Tungus and the Kwakuitl or Hopi or Huichol... Obviously.

I'm not denying anyone the right to call themselves whatever they please, I'm just arguing that in this case it's annoying and false. It isn't a matter of cultural 'purity' either. You've put these words in my mouth. If you want to believe that you are a transgendered Samoan midget you are absolutely welcome to. I won't do a thing to hold you back. I might be inclined to point out that you are an American of average proportion, however. Especially if you claim to speak for a group you have no authentic ties to.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7592661 - 11/03/07 11:34 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Come on Hue, you know as well as I do that the word is used generally because it's a lot easier than listing off the title every single culture has for the role.




Yes I know what you say to be true, but MANY native cultures call that disrespect...particularly the Siberian one. Tengerism.org is a site created by the people of this culture, and they discuss this in the following link:
http://www.tengerism.org/origin_of_shaman.html
By the way this site http://www.tengerism.org/ is a very cool informational site.
Now I see your point about the use of the term being a good general term and I see no disrespect whatsoever, but if some guy wants to call  himself a shaman then I see no disrespect there either...which is MY point. Now, using that term to describe ones self might indicate a issue involving self importance...just as any title denotes self importance, but beyond that there is little wrong with it. It is really not worth losing sleep over...and if some idiot can get other people to believe him when he uses that title, then that was a lesson that those people needed to learn. I do believe, however, that shamanic ideas and techniques are relevant to the lives of people in our culture as these views have changed me enormously over the last few years. I did once try to pass myself off as a  transgendered Samoan midget, but being several inches over six foot I could find no one to validate my claim :frown:


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7592771 - 11/04/07 12:07 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Point taken. I'm certainly not losing any sleep over it, I'm just a bit of a curmudgeon. :smirk:


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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7593333 - 11/04/07 02:55 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

lol


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7593915 - 11/04/07 11:42 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shaman
1: a priest or priestess who uses magic for the purpose of curing the sick, divining the hidden, and controlling events
2: one who resembles a shaman




The root of this term means "monk" or "priest/priestess," not "culturally recognized as a priest/priestess."  I'm not sure where your strict limitations on the right to use this term originate, but it is not from the actual definition.  :shrug:

Is not someone who practices shamanism accurately described as "a shaman"?  Certainly you can question whether the practices an individual claims to be involved in are factually shamanistic, but it does not seem reasonable to claim that someone cannot become a shaman without being embedded in a certain culture.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7593928 - 11/04/07 11:47 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

If your skin ain't the right color and you wasn't born in the right place then you can't be in the club. That's how it usually works.

It might just be helpful to mankind if we could drop this non-sense and share freely what we know.

Really, should any person who knows they are going to die actually give a shit about all this?


Edited by Icelander (11/04/07 11:50 AM)


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Offlinebbaeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7593985 - 11/04/07 12:06 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

it's reasonable if you undertand what shamanism actually is rather than just looking at a dictionary. if a person claims to be shaman within a context where shamanism isnt recognized or is even scoffed at, that persons shamanism becomes almost useless, because there is no place for it. some people in our culture are begining to recognize shamanic roles, but unfortunately much of this recognition is a superficial one. A person can be a shaman without being embedded in a certain context, for example, if the shaman travels outside of his own culture and into another, but the shaman has got to have roots stemming from a culture that sanctions that. as to the deffinition you've quoted, in numerous cultures, in fact most, the shaman and the priest play completely different roles undertaken by different poeple. In many cases the shaman is not the priest. and the second deffinition, one who resembles a shaman? this could mean anything, like if someone paints their face and shakes a rattle, this could be resembling a shaman, but it would be absurd to say that that person is a shaman. The point i'm making is that one cannot decide "im a shaman" and in doing so becomes a shaman. A person can certainly take part in shaman-like activity, but to the assert that that is true shamanism is a mistake.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7593990 - 11/04/07 12:07 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

the funny thing about humans is that we have to "do" things. we cant just be like the birds


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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7594004 - 11/04/07 12:11 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The point i'm making is that one cannot decide "im a shaman" and in doing so becomes a shaman. A person can certainly take part in shaman-like activity, but to the assert that that is true shamanism is a mistake.




That is your opinion, not a statement of fact. If shamanism is about journeying between worlds, what does culture have to do with it? What does the recognition and approval of others have to do with it? These limitation are elitist nonsense, IMO.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7594026 - 11/04/07 12:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

shamanism is most certainly not just about journeying between worlds, you would be just a traveller then.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7594032 - 11/04/07 12:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

What else then?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7594040 - 11/04/07 12:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Shaman
1: a priest or priestess who uses magic for the purpose of curing the sick, divining the hidden, and controlling events
2: one who resembles a shaman




The root of this term means "monk" or "priest/priestess," not "culturally recognized as a priest/priestess."  I'm not sure where your strict limitations on the right to use this term originate, but it is not from the actual definition.  :shrug:

Is not someone who practices shamanism accurately described as "a shaman"?  Certainly you can question whether the practices an individual claims to be involved in are factually shamanistic, but it does not seem reasonable to claim that someone cannot become a shaman without being embedded in a certain culture.




Your definition is not correct. It is a popularized, generalized definition of the term, a different use of the word entirely. My definition and views on the matter come from, and are broadly accepted in, the field of anthropology. Yeah, there can be a lot to criticize about anthropology. I won't pretend it's flawless, but this is where I'm coming from. A priest is a different kind of thing entirely. There may be some parallels and crossovers, but priest and shaman are essentially different social roles.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7594050 - 11/04/07 12:24 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

is saying that steak is not a vegetable elitist? of course not, because steak and vegetables are specific things...which are different


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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7594060 - 11/04/07 12:27 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

icelander, if you want to know what shamanism is beyond travelling between worlds you can read a book ar an essay or a few. i've already given the name of one of the top books on the subject, you can read that. and you dont even have to read the whole thing to get the idea!


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7594064 - 11/04/07 12:28 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
What else then?




Navigating the spirit land, communicating with spirits and brinking back sought after knowledge to help the community. Diagnosing and curing illness, knowing everything about one's culture's mythology and medicines... etc. A shaman isn't just someone who hangs out in the spirit world for shits and giggles, or for thier personal growth, or to experience an alternative view of reality. There is a specific purpose for the activity and that is the health of the community. This is why, to truly be a shaman, one must be embedded in a cultural context that recognizes it.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7594068 - 11/04/07 12:30 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

that is basically it. now we can all nevermind.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7594197 - 11/04/07 01:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Your definition is not correct. It is a popularized, generalized definition of the term, a different use of the word entirely. My definition and views on the matter come from, and are broadly accepted in, the field of anthropology. Yeah, there can be a lot to criticize about anthropology. I won't pretend it's flawless, but this is where I'm coming from. A priest is a different kind of thing entirely. There may be some parallels and crossovers, but priest and shaman are essentially different social roles.




Anthropology, if I am not mistaken, studies the way things have been done in human cultures. This does not mean that what is studied can never be done differently, or that the definitions of the past are the only valid ones. "My" definition comes from the dictionary, and reflects the etymology of the term. As anthropology views everything through the lens of cultural embeddedness, it is to be expected that this field would define a Shaman as being culturally-determined.

Again, I say that these imposed limitations are elitist and inaccurate. Whether it is possible to be a Shaman or not, the definition is determined by the actions and abilities, not by the cultural acknowledgement and application of said actions and abilities.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7594202 - 11/04/07 01:23 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bbaeker said:
is saying that steak is not a vegetable elitist? of course not, because steak and vegetables are specific things...which are different




A shaman is not a thing, it is an individual with a particular set of abilities.  As such, it is not determined by molecular structure, as is the difference between animal and vegetable matter.  If an individual displays the particular set of abilities, then they are a Shaman whether you think they can be or not.  :shrug:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7594211 - 11/04/07 01:26 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I am a shaman, magician
The sun is purple
3D dimensions
I am for mental extensions.


--------------------


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7594226 - 11/04/07 01:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I am a shaman, magician
The sun is purple
3D dimensions
I am for mental extensions.




:rockon:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7594242 - 11/04/07 01:37 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Whether it is possible to be a Shaman or not, the definition is determined by the actions and abilities, not by the cultural acknowledgement and application of said actions and abilities.

yup. Hey, wasn't Jesus a Shaman?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/04/07 01:47 PM)


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7594742 - 11/04/07 04:08 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Did Jesus live in Siberia?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7594747 - 11/04/07 04:09 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

So it is said.:thumbup: What you think he was doing for all those "missing" years dude?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7594780 - 11/04/07 04:23 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I heard he hanging out chewing peyote with the Native Americans in the southwest.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7594855 - 11/04/07 04:47 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I heard he was with Markos doing drops of liquid Acid and lounging around the pool.:thumbup: You know he likes to hang out with the sinners.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/04/07 04:47 PM)


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7594873 - 11/04/07 04:51 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I think our disagreement is essentially definitional. Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. :shrug:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7594876 - 11/04/07 04:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

That means we win.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7594881 - 11/04/07 04:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

In your dreams! :smirk:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7594884 - 11/04/07 04:57 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

There too. It's all dreaming darlin.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7594885 - 11/04/07 04:57 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
I think our disagreement is essentially definitional. Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. :shrug:




That's fine, but remember--"my" definition is the one in the dictionary!  :smirk:

AND demanding that everyone adhere to a standard principle is not very anarchistic of you.  :wink:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7594906 - 11/04/07 05:02 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

That's right and I hope she don't forget.:mad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7594923 - 11/04/07 05:06 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Well mmmyyyy definition comes from my anthropology professor, so there. :tongue: :lol:

That's a low blow lady. When I'm king of the revolution everyone will subscribe to the correct (my) worldview and we'll all live in a paradise on earth with no bosses, politicians or wars. I won't need to coerce anyone because they will be won to my perspective through my flawless logic and incredible charisma. :smirk:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7594944 - 11/04/07 05:11 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

my flawless logic and incredible charisma




Bring it on.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7594976 - 11/04/07 05:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

:popcorn:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7595827 - 11/04/07 08:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Honey, it's already been brought.;)


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Veritas]
    #7597463 - 11/05/07 08:14 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Something that is painfully irritating to me is how many people think they can just become a shaman by deciding that they are one, or by paying for a class that guides them through some "initiation" process. The definition of a shaman is a person who is culturally recognized as being able to leave thier body, journey to the culture's spirit land, interact with spirits and return to thier body with knowledge. You cannot just decide to be a shaman and be one. If your culture does not have a shamanic tradition, you will never be one. You are of course free to experiment with your consciousness in whatever way you please, but it is terribly disrespectful to the shamanic cultures to ape thier traditions and pretend you can intitiate yourself into something you don't understand.

There is also the fact that the process of becoming a shaman (in cultures that have this pattern) is extremely difficult and often life threatening. I sincerely doubt that any of the weekend courses white folks take come even close to what is involved in the tradition.




Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Your definition is not correct. It is a popularized, generalized definition of the term, a different use of the word entirely. My definition and views on the matter come from, and are broadly accepted in, the field of anthropology. Yeah, there can be a lot to criticize about anthropology. I won't pretend it's flawless, but this is where I'm coming from. A priest is a different kind of thing entirely. There may be some parallels and crossovers, but priest and shaman are essentially different social roles.




Anthropology, if I am not mistaken, studies the way things have been done in human cultures.  This does not mean that what is studied can never be done differently, or that the definitions of the past are the only valid ones.  "My" definition comes from the dictionary, and reflects the etymology of the term.  As anthropology views everything through the lens of cultural embeddedness, it is to be expected that this field would define a Shaman as being culturally-determined.

Again, I say that these imposed limitations are elitist and inaccurate.  Whether it is possible to be a Shaman or not, the definition is determined by the actions and abilities, not by the cultural acknowledgement and application of said actions and abilities.




I'm going to go with my usual all-encompassing/integral-like way of understanding and say that in my opinion, I think its both culturally determined and also based on inner abilities and actions.  I see shamanism and shamans in essence as the primordial psychologist/psychotherapist, an innerspace explorer and healer. These common patterns of social role and inner mentality/being/consciousness has been expressed differently and changed throughout cultures and history.

Don't get me wrong, I think its silly when someone calls themselves a shaman as well after just reading some books or attending a workshop, but the actual role or archetype of what the shaman embodies, I think is somewhat expressed, but fragmented across the modern fields of medicine, psychology, ecology, etc.

Don't know if that makes sense to anyone, but just the way I look at it.  :shrug:


--------------------
"We contemplate the same stars, the Heavens are common to us all, and the same world surrounds us. What matters the path of wisdom by which each person seeks the truth? One cannot reach such a great mystery by a single path." - Symmachus, challenging the violent persecution of pagans by Catholic Roman emperor Theodosius I

"When you look at yourself from a universal standpoint, something inside always reminds or informs you that there are bigger and better things to worry about."
-Einstein


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Re: Shamanism [Re: OMniversal]
    #7598529 - 11/05/07 03:28 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

well the all important thing as i said is

A. they heal people and taking on that role via rituals and what have you.(this covers the whole preist hoodness and such)
B. they have a following a clan,tribe,cult,ect

to put things in the most basic easy to understand way.


Edited by thedudenj (11/05/07 04:28 PM)


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7598882 - 11/05/07 05:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Honey, it's already been brought.;)




We didn't notice.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7599337 - 11/05/07 07:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Something that is painfully irritating to me is how many people think they can just become a shaman by deciding that they are one, or by paying for a class that guides them through some "initiation" process.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7345595#Post7345595 :thumbup:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7599378 - 11/05/07 07:30 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't see why you would say westerners can't become shaman , If someone was interested in let's say ''Christianity'' who wasn't born into it went out got a bible and started going to church and found god would they not be able to call themselves a Christian just because they were born in a culture that was absent of that religion?


Edited by Jive turkey (11/05/07 07:34 PM)


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7599384 - 11/05/07 07:31 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

What came first the shaman or the shamanic culture?


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Re: Shamanism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7599388 - 11/05/07 07:33 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
I am a shaman, magician
The sun is purple
3D dimensions
I am for mental extensions.




:rockon:




:rockon: lol


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Jive turkey]
    #7599391 - 11/05/07 07:33 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Jive turkey said:
I don't see why you would say westerners can't become shaman , If someone was interested in let's say ''Christianity'' who wasn't born into it went out got a bible and started going to church and found god would they not be able to call themselves and Christian just because they were born in a culture that was absent of that religion?



Originally, it was that way. There was a time when you had to be a Jew in order to be a Christian.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Jive turkey]
    #7599529 - 11/05/07 08:08 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

A "shaman" is a specialized role within a culture. It is not a religion itself, rather a particular type of religious practice, so your comparison is not quite on. All one has to do to call themselves a Christian is believe that Jesus was the son of God.

I will explain this in the greatest possible detail one more time:

To become a shaman one must: a) recieve a 'call' which may come in a dream, the strange behaviour of an animal, or something like that b) accept the call and begin training as a shaman's apprentice c) Learn everything there is to know about the culture's mythology in a manner much deeper than many other members of the culture would d)learn about the causes and cures of illnesses e) learn all there is to know about medicines.

After this training, which usually involves activities that are very dangerous and often life threatening, the initiate must go enter the spirit world alone. In this journey they are attacked by hostile spirits and often killed (in spirit, although in the flesh too, often enough.) If they return from the journey the hostile spirits will have become thier helpers for further journeys and they will have returned utterly changed.

Upon return they will now be regarded as a shaman and will begin practicing. The details of training and practice vary incredibly between cultures, but the skeleton, the pattern, are the same. What makes a person a shaman is all of this, and the recognition of the culture that this person has undergone this process as thier tasks are bound up in the needs of the community. One is not a shaman if one does not fulfill the role within the community. One cannot be a shaman if their journeying is for thier own personal development. Shaman is not the correct term for someone who does this. This is not invalidate the activities of the solo journeyer, but the term is incorrectly used to describe this sort of activity and we'd do best to come up with another term. Journeyer, soul traveller, whatever. Pick something. The term shaman is a specialized term to refer to the above described. Some people in our culture have chosen to use it more loosely, but this is problematic as it means the word has lost meaning and become ambiguous. I realize that this happens to language, but it is important to understand the meaning of words so as to apply them appropriately and avoid the confusion of concepts.

For further reading I recommend Mircea Eliade, the anthopologist who first recognized this pattern. Before his work, most anthropologists thought shamans were schizophrenics. This is called "naive realism" - when someone applies thier own cultural concepts to another culture, misunderstanding what is really going on for them.

Icelander: If you didn't notice, you weren't paying attention. :tongue: :wink:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7599581 - 11/05/07 08:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Here is an interesting site linking together schizophrenia and shamanism: http://website.lineone.net/~crowseed/sands/skzindex.html

very interesting, a lot of it may affirm the experiences of people after ego loss and the period following that

Quote:

It appears to the schizophrenic that everyone else in the world is living in an enlightened state, albeit without free will. The schizophrenic believes that s/he is the only one who cannot attain this sacred state, despite the whole world waiting for them to make that final leap of consciousness. Everyone else appears to be aware of a secret language beneath the apparent meaning of words, a magical subtext which creates and shapes the world, but use it without conscience, for they have invested their free will and hope of salvation in the schizophrenic. The schizophrenic meanwhile becomes so bogged down in the secret meaning of words that they can sometimes only be computable to them as individual syllables. Thus "warm" can equate with "war", for example, a state to be avoided. Even words with particular sounds can become diseased, for example the "p" in "happy" can make it an undesirable state.




wow.. so weird to think back on those times, how real it all was. that period of my life will always get me thinking..


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Re: Shamanism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7599618 - 11/05/07 08:28 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I can relate to that A LOT.

It's hard not to wonder who's in on the joke, and why I am not in on the joke.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Lion]
    #7599842 - 11/05/07 09:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I thought being a christian was more then just sayin jesus is the direct son of god, but more about emulating jesus/being christ like but I dont really know.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Minot_6805]
    #7600973 - 11/06/07 01:21 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

that is more close to the point. the term christian came from the romans mocking those who were "followers of The Way" by calling them "little Christs", this is the root of the term "christian" and it is very close to the point, which is to in a sense be Christ.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7601036 - 11/06/07 01:35 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

What one must commit to in order to define themselves as a Christian varies from sect to sect, but my point is still that there is a difference between being a member of a religion and being a particular type of practitioner within that religion. Let's say it's the difference between being a Christian and being a Bishop. To be a Bishop you have to be a Catholic and follow all of the prescribed steps that allow one to claim the title. It's the same with being a shaman.

There's also a big difference between Christianity and shamanistic religions, in that a defining feature of Christianity, at least these days, is that it actively seeks converts. Most shamanic traditions are not looking for converts but are rather designed by and for the people of the culture. Hence the issue of context.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7601758 - 11/06/07 11:24 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

"Please don't squeeze the Shaman"

I fulfill the shamanic role in my culture but no one ever comes to see me. Hey that's not my fault.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7601925 - 11/06/07 12:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Wow, this thread is so full of misinformation it's not even funny.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Kinematics]
    #7601943 - 11/06/07 12:24 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Misinformation? Do you care to make an argument here, because my information comes from my studies in anthropology. If you have a different perspective, please share, and please cite your sources. I, however, have not misinformed anybody.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7602474 - 11/06/07 02:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I think he was talking to me. (it's not all about you ya know:lol:)

I do spread misinformation whenever possible. It works just as well here and is easier to come by.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7604021 - 11/06/07 08:29 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I dont really know much about shamanism but what about some of the shamanic cultures dying out and the spirits of those cultures calling out to people of other cultures? Ive read and heard a few things to that accord.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7604360 - 11/06/07 10:04 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
(it's not all about you ya know:lol:)





Really? :undecided:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7605728 - 11/07/07 08:33 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Terence McKenna said in one of his lectures, that "the Shaman is the smart guy." And if you are this shaman, this smart guy, and go to a completely different culture, for example an amazonian or siberian tribal shamanic culture, the shaman will know you, and you will know the shaman, you maybe can't communicate with the other tribe members, because of cultural differences, but you can communicate with the shaman. You are on a different level, than the others.

I sometimes think about myself as a smart guy :smirk:, but never tested this theory... Last night under the influence of enormous amount of alcohol I met a black guy, who claimed that he was from Haiti. I tried to get information from him about voodoo and zombies, but he was very secretive.  :shrug: We laughed a lot nevertheless... He was too funny.  :biggrin:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Bard]
    #7606495 - 11/07/07 01:20 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

i dont have a problem if it dies out as long as curent medical practices die too! or imporves


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


Edited by thedudenj (11/07/07 01:36 PM)


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Bard]
    #7606624 - 11/07/07 01:51 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bard said:
Terence McKenna said in one of his lectures, that "the Shaman is the smart guy." And if you are this shaman, this smart guy, and go to a completely different culture, for example an amazonian or siberian tribal shamanic culture, the shaman will know you, and you will know the shaman, you maybe can't communicate with the other tribe members, because of cultural differences, but you can communicate with the shaman. You are on a different level, than the others.

I sometimes think about myself as a smart guy :smirk:, but never tested this theory... Last night under the influence of enormous amount of alcohol I met a black guy, who claimed that he was from Haiti. I tried to get information from him about voodoo and zombies, but he was very secretive.  :shrug: We laughed a lot nevertheless... He was too funny.  :biggrin:




Uh, this is ridiculous. The shaman is the smart guy? No other social role requires intelligence in band and tribe level societies? You think that some white dude who can't manage to communicate with a regular person about regular things is gonna manage to communicate with a shaman about complex, abstract concepts about the culture and thier mythos? What, because he likes drugs? Don't you think this is a little self inflated and unrealistic?


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7607457 - 11/07/07 05:37 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Actually, TM said "the Shaman knows when to hold on and when to let go."

I am a neo-shaman. Therefore I get to make up my own rules.:hissyfit:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7607813 - 11/07/07 06:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The shaman is the smart guy?




Hell yes! He makes a living giving out spiritual advice and talking to spirits while every other guy in the tribe is busting their asses with hard work. :thumbup:


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7607892 - 11/07/07 07:07 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

:lol: Sure, at the expense of a traumatic, life threatening training and initation. Would you rather take on malevolent spirits that are definitly going to kill you (at least temporarily) in your intiation journey, or pick berries and go fishing?


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7610014 - 11/08/07 08:12 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I think Terence meant that the shaman is not just an ordinary smart guy, or intelligent person, but the smart guy... The one who knows, who can see behind the illusion, the Maya, etc. Maybe, as Hue said, that is why he/she can make his living without hard work, and just talking spiritual... That is one aspect of the whole thing. The traumatic initiation is can be true also, it is required for him, or anybody to make to that spiritual level... Icelander you are right too, I remember that he said that too... Ha spoke a lot about shamanism... :laugh:

Quote:


You think that some white dude who can't manage to communicate with a regular person about regular things is gonna manage to communicate with a shaman about complex, abstract concepts about the culture and their mythos?




I don't know... I never had this experience... But maybe two real shamans will not even want to speak about complex abstract concepts... Maybe they completely satisfied with communicating nonverbally or getting high together or something...  :shrug:


--------------------
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I don't belive. I fear.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Bard]
    #7610463 - 11/08/07 12:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Shamanism is hard work- mentally, emotionally and physically. It isn't just 'talking spiritual.'


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7612073 - 11/08/07 07:12 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think that shamanism is hard work or even work. For one who has been through the "initiation" or crisis there is really no choice. It is a gift that one cannot refuse. Castaneda called such gifts "gifts of power" for that very reason.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7612699 - 11/08/07 10:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Fair enough, my point is that it isn't bumming around, it isn't easy. It's a pretty big thing to step up to and it's silly to characterize it as a great way to get out of having to do the kind of work everyone else does.

Castaneda was a huckster though, so I really can't take him seriously as a source. He never apprenticed with anyone, but rather hung out in a village a few times chasing pretty women around while the shamans went to the mountains to do ceremonies. He amalgamated a bunch of info he found in various field studies other people did and just sort of made up a believable and interesting story. It's a great work of fiction, but he isn't an authoritative source. This doesn't mean that a person can't get valuable insights from reading him. :shrug:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7613168 - 11/09/07 12:57 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

He never apprenticed with anyone, but rather hung out in a village a few times chasing pretty women around while the shamans went to the mountains to do ceremonies.




I think he was on to something...


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Re: Shamanism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7613200 - 11/09/07 01:07 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps. :smirk:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7613609 - 11/09/07 04:00 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

"To become a shaman one must: a) recieve a 'call' which may come in a dream, the strange behaviour of an animal, or something like that b) accept the call and begin training as a shaman's apprentice c) Learn everything there is to know about the culture's mythology in a manner much deeper than many other members of the culture would d)learn about the causes and cures of illnesses e) learn all there is to know about medicines."

First of all, you speak in very definite terms for one who lives in such a subjective universe. Were you to drop the terms 'is, am, and are' from your vocabulary you might start to understand science in a whole new light.

First of all, I am of mostly european descent, a little cherokee, but mostly irish, german, and scottish. All my ancesters were of a shamanic culture before that was wiped out by the romans, but more so the catholic church. I define my own culture, not the other way around, because it is my own reality.

A) I recieved the call when i was 17 in the form of a heavenly voice, I've been following visions through my life since. They seem to manifest.

B) who should I apprentice under? I looked and quested for years but eventually I found my spirit guide to be the best teacher. The best shamans work as fascilitators any ways, and as I've stated to the wise men of the other tribes, who taught the first shaman?

C)How can one know everything about ones culture and mythology? Stories and visions very from village to village, with each telling of a story the story changes. Given this thought how is it possible to know everything?

D)This is something that is a life time process, though I've been involved for sometime. As a child I wanted to be a doctor, and thusly medicine is an interesting topic I've been research through out my life. Though I've not the paper or formal training I've been practicing massage for some 14 years now, and energy work for the past 4.

E) Knowing everything about the medicines is once again impossible. To know everything seems very limiting, that places a finite level on ones consciousness. Ideally one constantly learns through life, new lessons lead to new ideas and we grow as individuals and collectives. But I've been studying chemistry, ethnobotony, and medicine for the past 8 years.

I'm not sure why you are so adamant about this subject. It seems that the college folk (of which I use to be a part) think everything has to be so structured, and everything is black and white. All orders must be elite, and anything which isn't generally approved of is heresy. Might I remind you that some time ago Newton was an outcast among his world?

Somebody else mentioned that a shaman who travels outside of his realm wouldn't be recognized, but why then does Narby describe the shamans of the amazon as being required to leave their village and tribe to learn shamanism from another tribe? Somebody else mentioned that the shamans recognize each other, this is true. I've experienced mutual recognition with others on many occasions, though sometimes its an uncomfortable one. In this loose society it seems very easy for one to become lost in the seedy part of the spirit world, and not all shamans behave well.

As far as being recognized, I don't go around tellin every body about my spiritual life. It is not important that they know what I do for them. However, often times I find myself being asked spiritual questions and being looked to for guidance. Generally among my tribe I'm recognized for having a gift of speech, a gift of clear vision, and a gift for the healing touch.

On a side note, in most societies it seems that the shaman is paid some due, if he becomes crippled he will be taken care of(but aren't all people in those societies). But generally shamans tend to be quite avid hunters, gathers and builders. We work just as hard as everyone else in the tribe, but do to our calling we have extra duties, that while at times might excuse us from the daily chores; generally end up in an added workload. Though the 'medicine men' in the suburbs of south american cities who cater to tourists probably aren't big on work.

And so are my thoughts on this conversation, it seems somebodies has to throw a rock at the other side of the scale to try and balance it.
-MOR


--------------------
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7614200 - 11/09/07 11:03 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Shamanism is hard work- mentally, emotionally and physically. It isn't just 'talking spiritual.'




And you know this how?

I think many regular folk in their personal struggles (mostly unseen) do the same thing every day.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/09/07 11:04 AM)


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7614487 - 11/09/07 12:36 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I know this the same way I know anything else I haven't experienced: observation, research and certain amount of educated assumption. You're probably right about the personal struggles thing. And I know you know that ain't easy. Point made.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7615527 - 11/09/07 04:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

NN, you get props for dissing Castaneda in front of the Dynamic Duo, Hue and Ice. :thumbup:

When I do, they attack like a pack of rabid dogs and I run off ragged and bleeding...


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Re: Shamanism [Re: BrandNoob]
    #7615875 - 11/09/07 05:50 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BrandNoob said:
As I understand, it's essentially saying that the two things being talked about cannot be described without the context of the other. You cannot describe an object without describing its environment. You may discuss its height, color and general outline - but none of those mean anything without their surrounding context. The height is irrelevant without the heights of other things (or a unit of measure) to compare to. The end of the object is meaningless without the air surrounding it.

There is no shaman without a culture that recognizes the shaman, there is no culture that recognizes a shaman without the existence of the shaman.

What I find interesting is that since our society doesn't respect voyagers of the inner/other realm, an entire subset of society (the psychedelic counterculture) has arisen. Populated with mainly sight-seers and tourists of the mind/soul, there are some recognized individuals who are known to be particularly adept travelers of the spirit. Would not these individuals meet the (non-Siberian) definition of "shaman" that was given above by various posters?




If our use of words is based upon what is socially and culturally recognized, is there even such thing as a drug use that isn't drug abuse? By popular definition aren't we all just drug fiends here? I realize this is an exageration of the concept, but it might demonstrate the point. What something is, is what it does. Are there any words that are more fitting for the general spiritual or conscious-expanding use of drugs, in modern society?


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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7616363 - 11/09/07 08:38 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
NN, you get props for dissing Castaneda in front of the Dynamic Duo, Hue and Ice. :thumbup:

When I do, they attack like a pack of rabid dogs and I run off ragged and bleeding...




:lol: That's because you're a fun target. You know how it goes: when you're the fastest shot in town, every little punk with something to prove wants to take you on.

To make that context appropriate: when you're the most critical curmudgeon on the board, every cranky intellectual with something to prove wants to take you on.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7616392 - 11/09/07 08:46 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:

If our use of words is based upon what is socially and culturally recognized, is there even such thing as a drug use that isn't drug abuse? By popular definition aren't we all just drug fiends here? I realize this is an exageration of the concept, but it might demonstrate the point. What something is, is what it does. Are there any words that are more fitting for the general spiritual or conscious-expanding use of drugs, in modern society?




This doesn't work, because there is a wide diversity of opinion with regards to drugs in our society. The word 'drugs' isn't inherently bound to any specific value statement.

Also, the word "drugs" refers to an objective category of things. It is not a word that refers to a social role and thus must be defined specifically to be of any meaning. If someone picked up a clock radio and said "this is a drug," people would either think that they were deluded or that they were addicted to listening to the radio.

As for words refering to the spiritual potential of drugs: what about entheogen?


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7616564 - 11/09/07 09:31 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

yes that is exactly the term I was thinking of. But a substance is only an entheogen in relation to us, so what are we in relation to it?

What is the correct word for a modern appreciator of entheogens?


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Re: Shamanism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7616641 - 11/09/07 09:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't know what we are in relation to it. I don't know if fungi or plants experience some sort of consciousness entirely unlike ours. It's possible I suppose. Maybe we aren't anything to it. Maybe we're that fucker that keeps picking it to eat when it's growing perfectly contended on its own.

I'm not sure what the correct word would be. Theres probably a bunch to choose from. Maybe psychonaut? Inner-space explorer? Other-world journeyer? I dunno.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7616776 - 11/09/07 10:34 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
yes that is exactly the term I was thinking of. But a substance is only an entheogen in relation to us, so what are we in relation to it?

What is the correct word for a modern appreciator of entheogens?



I was contemplating this just the other day. Those of us who traverse the other realms, what are we labeled as in our own culture? Drug users..hippies..."urban shaman" maybe, lol.

I have turned on many people to this lifestyle, introduced them to psychedelics and gave them guidance on their own personal journeys into the unknown. I feel like some sort of teacher, guide, mentor kinda thing during those times.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7616890 - 11/09/07 11:14 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

yea I usually say something along these lines when its necessary. For some reason I never get any respect when I refer to myself as a conquistador of consciousness though.

I looked up the etymology for shaman and it seems to be cross- cultural:

1698, "priest of the Ural-Altaic peoples,"

probably via Ger. Schamane, from Rus. shaman, from Tungus shaman, which is perhaps from Chinese sha men "Buddhist monk," from Prakrit samaya-, from Skt. sramana-s "Buddhist ascetic."

Just some food for thought...


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Re: Shamanism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7616909 - 11/09/07 11:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Its hard to believe that language actually reflects life to the extent that there is no word for modern shaman, or whatever you wanna call it.

I mean Imagine youre being tried in court to justify your religious/spiritual use of mushrooms, but you cant make any statement, because theres no such words. :lol:

By the way, great thread NiamhNyx, I usually dont ever post here anymore...


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7616953 - 11/09/07 11:38 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think anyone knows what Castaneda did when he was in Mexico...that is part of the appeal of his work, BUT my knowledge and experience with shamanism tells me he was dead on the mark in many respects. The concepts he promoted are the root basis of shamanic practice if you can manage to see past the toys and paraphernalia of the shaman and examine the core concepts. I am not really interested in his credibility, but his ideas.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7617129 - 11/10/07 12:43 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I'm basing my opinion regarding his credibility on the BBC documentary about him, which I admit is only one perspective, but a source with a rather good reputation. I can't remember the details, but someone actually figured out which village he went to in Mexico and talked to some elders there who remembered him, and they said that he came around every once in awhile, but that he would just stay in town to chase women around when the shamans and young men went out to do ceremonies.

It also talked about how he was an anthropology graduate student working on his thesis when he did all this stuff, as he mentioned in his book... but the culture he claimed to be learning from didn't have a lot of the concepts he talked about and they also didn't use drugs for thier shamanic practice.

Basically, he had a lot of access to field studies other people did on the subject and made up a composite fiction based on that. That's fine, but he passed it off as authentic work. That's my problem with him. It was damaging and disrespectful to spread false information about the Yaqui. After he became popular thousands upon thousands of Americans descended on Indigenous Mexican villages looking for a trip and that put a pretty big strain on those people. It also caused the authorities to crack down on traditional use of entheogens, heavily damaging the continuity of many traditions.

It's great if you can find valuable insight in his writing, but the fact that his work was completely inauthentic is important to remember. It shows pretty poor integrity on his part, and it makes me wary. Don't let me hold you back though, I'm not questioning the value of the influence he's had on you, just the implications of the way he went about representing himself.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7617180 - 11/10/07 01:10 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

When I pointed that out, my house was fire-bombed and a giant burning cactus was found in my yard. I need to learn of your special immunity.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7617237 - 11/10/07 01:39 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

:lol: Maybe it has something to do with your habit of being really cranky and inflammatory in your style of critique. My "special immunity" probably has something to do with constantly prefacing my critiques with "although your feelings are valid..." or "I see the appeal of this thing you're into..." It may be a holdover from my former fear of confrontation. :smirk:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7617251 - 11/10/07 01:44 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I certainly am not pretentious, but it might be more of a gender issue than diplomacy. Hue and Ice are tough hombres, but softies when it comes to dealing with females.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7617388 - 11/10/07 03:11 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I never said you were pretentious. A bit of a projection, perhaps? :monkeydance:

...and I don't need nobody to be soft on me for my gender. I dare any of y'all to try and break me! Come on, lay it on! :paladin: :waits:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7618277 - 11/10/07 01:09 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)


It's great if you can find valuable insight in his writing, but the fact that his work was completely inauthentic is important to remember. It shows pretty poor integrity on his part, and it makes me wary. Don't let me hold you back though, I'm not questioning the value of the influence he's had on you, just the implications of the way he went about representing himself.


For all the reasons you consider him inauthentic I consider him authentic. A true coyote IMO. (by the way have you every bothered to read his writings?) Of course you don't know if his work even in your amateur opinion is inauthentic because like most everyone else you never knew him and he remains somewhat of an enigma, not to mention the fact that you have no personal experience in Shamanism so you speak only as a pundit.

That's my problem with him.

I'm always glad when someone has a problem with a coyote.:thumbup: It reminds to stay on track with what I personally know.

It was damaging and disrespectful to spread false information about the Yaqui. After he became popular thousands upon thousands of Americans descended on Indigenous Mexican villages looking for a trip and that put a pretty big strain on those people. It also caused the authorities to crack down on traditional use of entheogens, heavily damaging the continuity of many traditions.


This all makes me chuckle. :lol: He damaged and disrespected some people who obviously then can't handle real life and are afraid of what other people say and believe. If that's true about them then they're just like the rest of the world and who gives a fuck. Poor Yaqui's.:hissyfit:

Carlos didn't tell anyone to descend on those people , so blame the idiots who did it and the Indians who didn't immediately run them off.:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/10/07 01:37 PM)


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7618362 - 11/10/07 01:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I am a Yaqui Doodle Dandy.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7618371 - 11/10/07 01:35 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I always suspected you were gay.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7618559 - 11/10/07 02:29 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

For all the reasons you consider him inauthentic I consider him authentic. A true coyote IMO. (by the way have you every bothered to read his writings?) Of course you don't know if his work even in your amateur opinion is inauthentic because like most everyone else you never knew him and he remains somewhat of an enigma, not to mention the fact that you have no personal experience in Shamanism so you speak only as a pundit.




Yes, I have bothered to read his books. It has been a few years, but I read and enjoyed a couple of his them. When I use the term 'authentic,' I am using it in the formal sense, in that his work was not authentic field work, as he claimed it to be. If, from the get go, he had admitted that he'd written a spectacular work of fiction then there'd be nothing to criticize. My point stands. And no, I have no personal experience with shamanism, but neither does anyone who reads Castaneda's book and tries to mimic the technique he outlines. I am again, and always will, use the word shaman according to it's correct, anthropological definition and not the generalized manner it is often used in pop culture. Following the insights one finds in Castaneda's work is all well and good, but it doesn't make you any more of a shaman, or any more experienced in shamanism, than the next guy. I find it terribly funny how many white folks who think they are engaging in shamanism have never exchanged one word with an indigenous person, and often carry terrible 'drunk indian' sterotypes with them.

Quote:


I'm always glad when someone has a problem with a coyote.:thumbup: It reminds to stay on track with what I personally know.




Coyote certainly is an interesting term for Castaneda. Coyote is a selfish, foolish, naive, troublemaking Trickster. His stories are always told to warn of the consequences of behaving as he does. Coyote was rather fond of tricking women into having sex with him... it appears Castaneda's adventures in Mexico were certainly on par with the role of Coyote.

Quote:


This all makes me chuckle. :lol: He damaged and disrespected some people who obviously then can't handle real life and are afraid of what other people say and believe. If that's true about them then they're just like the rest of the world and who gives a fuck. Poor Yaqui's.:hissyfit:

Carlos didn't tell anyone to descend on those people , so blame the idiots who did it and the Indians who didn't immediately run them off.:tongue:




To purposely spread disinformation and attribute it to a specific culture is problematic. It isn't an issue of being able to 'handle real life,' but rather an issue of suddenly having every bored teenager in America descend on them for drugs... when they didn't even use drugs to begin with. Who gives a fuck? Who gives a fuck about the fact that the world is becoming increasingly culturally homogenized and distinct cultures are being assaulted and assimilated at a break-neck rate. I dunno. I do. :shrug: Maybe Castaneda can't be blamed for the dipshits that descended on Mexico, but he can be blamed for misrepresenting himself and others. It shows an incredible lack of integrity.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7618634 - 11/10/07 02:48 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

If, from the get go, he had admitted that he'd written a spectacular work of fiction then there'd be nothing to criticize.

So a coyote is going to admit he's a coyote? Not how it works.

Personally Don Juan didn't refer to his knowledge as Shamanism. I really don't know what a shaman knows nor does anyone who isn't one. He might just be another third world stoner for all I know. Holy men and mystics have been in question in my mind for a long time.

I have had a conversation with an indigenous person before. I was hitchhiking from Yellowstone to Seattle and he picked me up in his semi. He then invited me to stay at his house and lift some weights and then took me out for a shrimp dinner. He seemed to believe being Indian was a drawback for him and his ancestors were savages. I politely set him straight.:lol:

but rather an issue of suddenly having every bored teenager in America descend on them for drugs..

Sorry but I don't think so.

Who gives a fuck? Who gives a fuck about the fact that the world is becoming increasingly culturally homogenized and distinct cultures are being assaulted and assimilated at a break-neck rate. I dunno. I do.

Well I don't. For me a human is a human and most wars seem to be about ethnic and territorial differences. If humanity ever realized the we are all indigenous to AFRICA then things might just go a little smoother.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7618699 - 11/10/07 03:03 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

So do you think that the solution to territorial and ethnic wars is to completely homogenize the world? Hmm. I don't know about you, but I'm really excited by diversity. It's wonderful to know that there are endless ways to interpret and understand life, and that people live in all sorts of ways. I think that human diversity is a strong argument for there being freedom - there are many living examples of different ways to live, the way we live is not "the way" but one way, and we can be inspired by the existence of different approaches. Cultural diversity has already been severely damaged by colonization and christian missionaries, and I shudder to imagine a world in which everyone drinks pepsi, works in an office and watches television.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7618747 - 11/10/07 03:14 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

You assume (I'm guessing from your post) that I want to impose American/European culture on the whole world. Not even close.

And yes I am saying that cultural diversity is the cause of most of the nastiness in our human world as far as war, famine, degradation of environment and religious fundamentalism goes.

If we as humans were smart we would look at all the cultures and pick out what seems to support our collective goals and then create one big fucking tribe.

If we don't then I believe we are dooooooooooomed.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/10/07 03:15 PM)


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7618769 - 11/10/07 03:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Do you think that perhaps the concept of shaman has evolved from its traditional role in Siberia?

What if the term entheogenic was only applicable to the traditional plants that were used for sacrament? Could LSD be considered entheogenic? Of course it isn't recognized by culture or society as such, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. If you look at one of my previous posts, you can find the roots of the word shaman. The current records indicate that the word shaman finds its roots in many different cultures, fundamentally stemming from the Sanskrit word for Buddhist aesthetic. Etymology for shaman

Of course anything that is going to be called sacramental or religious is going to carry some cultural baggage, but what something definably is, is its function and relationships with reality, and most particularly mankind. Perhaps your right in this sense, I'm not sure exactly what a shaman's or medicine man's function is. So why exactly are you asserting that this relationship can't exist in modern culture? Being white or indigenous is only correlated with man's place in nature/culture. Not all white people listen to bad rap, eat unhealthy, and eventually end up being doctors or lawyers....


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7618883 - 11/10/07 03:43 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

If we wanted to be real shaman (and shawoman) we would be drinking Amanita-laced reindeer piss instead of orange juice/cubensis smoothies.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7618934 - 11/10/07 03:54 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You assume (I'm guessing from your post) that I want to impose American/European culture on the whole world. Not even close.

And yes I am saying that cultural diversity is the cause of most of the nastiness in our human world as far as war, famine, degradation of environment and religious fundamentalism goes.

If we as humans were smart we would look at all the cultures and pick out what seems to support our collective goals and then create one big fucking tribe.

If we don't then I believe we are dooooooooooomed.




I'm not assuming that you want to impose a Euro-American culture on the world, but in reality this is what is happening. It is the dominant culture, and it imposes it's values everywhere it goes, whether intentionally or accidentally.

I don't think that cultural diversity is to blame for these problems. I think that there are other culprits, including nationalism and religious fundamentalism. Dominant powers (like the US) have foreign policies that cause trouble all over the world, and instigate violence and warfare. Cultural homogenization inevitably results in the imposition of the values of the dominant culture. For sheer force of numbers, or due to economic clout.

The thing about your vision for the future is that never in a million years are you gonna get everyone on earth to agree what values support our collective goals. People always have and always will have different goals and different concepts of what defines a good life. There are many people who's most pressing goal is to not be assimilated, to not lose touch with thier traditional culture. Or to decolonize and rediscover thier heritage. I strongly support this.

I take more of a live and let live attitude. I also think that we'd be better off decentralizing power, so that smaller communities had more control over thier daily lives. Regional and affinity based groups can make autonomous decisions, but get together with each other to talk about mutual goals and needs and how they can support each other. The Iroquois Confederacy is a pretty rad example for how enemies can get together and have a really free and democratic relationship with each other.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619252 - 11/10/07 05:26 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Coyote is a selfish, foolish, naive, troublemaking Trickster.



:oogle:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619302 - 11/10/07 05:41 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

including nationalism and religious fundamentalism.

Well now thanks for making my point. It's just that some cultures have been a little more successful with this takeover. Every culture calls themselves "the human beings" and all have gone to war over territory, religion or race.

I also think that we'd be better off decentralizing power,

and you say my views will never happen in a million years.:lol: But I'm not saying my views are realistic for humanity, I'm just saying I believe they are the only ones that would save it.:monkeydance:

The Iroquois Confederacy is a pretty rad example for how enemies can get together and have a really free and democratic relationship with each other.


I'm not so sure the Iroquois were peaceful neighbors to surrounding tribes.  I'm not sure but didn't they pretty much exterminate the Huron? Weren't they also experts at torture?


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7619339 - 11/10/07 05:50 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

The role of the shaman is many, one may act as a healer, a clown, a master of ceremonies, a spiritual leader, and most importantly a go between for the different realms. The shaman is the first to the ceremony and the last to leave. He or she must communicate with the the other than human beings and act as a representative for humanity to the wrest of the world.

My personal goal for this humanity: to start moving off the planet and planting the seeds of life else where in the universe. We have the ability to serve as a vector for the life force of this planet to move and grow elsewhere. Like the mycologist with his syringes, we have the ability to spread the life from medium to medium, innoculating the universe for infinity to come.

I feel we are at a point where one of three things is going to happen: We are going to completely destroy ourselves as a race, we are going to work towards ascention / interplanetary and stellar travel, or we are going to decide that all of this work and technology really just complicates things and voids us of true happiness and we will revert back to our terrestrial nomadic roots, though maby with some added technology. Personally i like the second option, it seems like the most interesting to me.

I have recieved permission from mushrooms to speak on his behalf(mushrooms is a he by the way). Yes, plants and animals do have conciousness, but it is different from that which humans are use to. Plants tend to be less emotive, and of a higher nature. In general the species mind is much stronger among members of the plant kingdom, and in some members of the animal kingdom. Plants and animals have voice as well, but they don't speak unless one learns how to listen.

Now I must sleep.
-MOR


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Re: Shamanism [Re: MyOwnReality]
    #7619349 - 11/10/07 05:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I have recieved permission from mushrooms to speak

You talkin about those little white ones from the grocery store? :crazy2:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7619358 - 11/10/07 05:57 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I spoke without fungal permission - not even a note. :lipsrsealed: But then again, I am a ballsy MF...


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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7619449 - 11/10/07 06:28 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

tisk tisk orgone, how presumptuous of you! Next time make sure to obtain formal, written permission from him before presuming to open your big mouth!


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7619469 - 11/10/07 06:33 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Ice, I don't think violence is going anywhere. Conflict will never cease to exist to matter how pure our unrealistic ideologies. So yeah, the Iroquois were pretty ruthless warriors, but the example of the 5 (and soon 6) nations getting together after generations of fighting to work out one of the most democratic, consensus based, free forms of social organization around is pretty cool. And they didn't even have to homogenize themselves, but remained distinct tribes. Back home in Europe, 'peace' was generally (historically) achieved through conquest and the supression of diverse groups. It's a shit strategy if you ask me.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619493 - 11/10/07 06:38 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

They became part of the Huron now.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619515 - 11/10/07 06:47 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Something that is painfully irritating to me is how many people think they can just become a shaman by deciding that they are one, or by paying for a class that guides them through some "initiation" process. The definition of a shaman is a person who is culturally recognized as being able to leave thier body, journey to the culture's spirit land, interact with spirits and return to thier body with knowledge. You cannot just decide to be a shaman and be one. If your culture does not have a shamanic tradition, you will never be one. You are of course free to experiment with your consciousness in whatever way you please, but it is terribly disrespectful to the shamanic cultures to ape thier traditions and pretend you can intitiate yourself into something you don't understand.

There is also the fact that the process of becoming a shaman (in cultures that have this pattern) is extremely difficult and often life threatening. I sincerely doubt that any of the weekend courses white folks take come even close to what is involved in the tradition.





Cute..


I bet you wish you were a shaman..


It is sad to see what you do to yourself, by trying to impose it on others...

:tomato:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619548 - 11/10/07 06:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think violence is going anywhere.

So true,and while I like the form of Govt they created it was only their lack of numbers that kept them from extending their territory one way or another.

Humans are human and their tribal considerations only extended to those in their tribe.

It's so easy to hold up other cultures as proof of how good it is somewhere else until you actually get to know all the details. Again humans are humans and cultures will fight it out for territory and other less concrete considerations every time.

I honestly have little respect for culture in general and am not enamored by the little guy any more than the big one except for rare exceptions and I'm really not sure about them.

As a famous man once said. "When I hear the word culture I reach for my revolver" -Adolph Hitler.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Gomp]
    #7619689 - 11/10/07 07:27 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:

Cute..


I bet you wish you were a shaman..


It is sad to see what you do to yourself, by trying to impose it on others...

:tomato:




:rolleyes: I don't wish in the slightest that I was a shaman. I'm not. I'm pretty fond of the life that I have, and although I have a lot of deep animosity for the planet-and-diversity destroying industial society in which I live, I am fully capable of living here and now, and see much potential around me for creating a satisfying life for myself. I don't need to wish I was a shaman. You can go right ahead and stuff your presumptuous insights right back up your ass, where they came from.

I'd like to know exactly what it is that I am 'doing to myself' by 'imposing it on others.' Defining words correctly? Respecting the integrity of cultures that are not my own by challenging cooptation and 'culture vulturing'?


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619706 - 11/10/07 07:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

No flaming kiddies.:nono:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7619738 - 11/10/07 07:39 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't think violence is going anywhere.

So true,and while I like the form of Govt they created it was only their lack of numbers that kept them from extending their territory one way or another.

Humans are human and their tribal considerations only extended to those in their tribe.

It's so easy to hold up other cultures as proof of how good it is somewhere else until you actually get to know all the details. Again humans are humans and cultures will fight it out for territory and other less concrete considerations every time.

I honestly have little respect for culture in general and am not enamored by the little guy any more than the big one except for rare exceptions and I'm really not sure about them.

As a famous man once said. "When I hear the word culture I reach for my revolver" -Adolph Hitler.




Well, one reason band and tribe societies had lower populations is that they practiced birth control, so they were self limiting. They knew that it put too much strain on their landbase to have too many babies, so they took it easy. Women in hunter gatherer societies usually only give birth every 5 years or so. It's only when people shift to intensive agriculture that there is a population explosion and expansionist warring comes into play.

I'm not arguing in favour of the 'noble savage' view. That is just a skewed and biased as the opposite view. I'm just saying that I find it inspiring and interesting that there is a multitude of ways in which people have lived, and that fact alone proves to me that there is no 'right way to live' and thus we are not bound to what we have (which isn't working so well.)

I think Hitler was probably refering to culture in the sense of liberal Berlin and all the avant-garde jews and fags that were making great art and experimenting with sexual liberation in the 20's. He certainly was a fan of 'Volk' culture - Germanic mythology, Wagner, blood and soil, etc. He hated culture in the sense of liberal arts, not in the sense of a common identity and mythology shared by a group.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7619779 - 11/10/07 07:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not arguing in favour of the 'noble savage' view. That is just a skewed and biased as the opposite view. I'm just saying that I find it inspiring and interesting that there is a multitude of ways in which people have lived, and that fact alone proves to me that there is no 'right way to live' and thus we are not bound to what we have (which isn't working so well.)


I agree totally that there is no right way to live. In fact although I don't prefer much of what goes on, my view is that if things weren't supposed to be this way then they would be different. That's how I interpret the Tao.

You're right about AH,  but I have always loved that quote and use it for my own purposes. You're the first one who ever called me on it.:blush:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7619996 - 11/10/07 08:50 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Supposed to be this way? Ice, I'm suprised at you! You should know better than anyone that there's no such think as "supposed to be." :smirk: Things are, and if we would prefer them to be otherwise we can act to alter them. (That doesn't mean we'll succeed, just that the option to try is out there.)

And as for Hitler, I caught you with your pants down on that one. :smirk: I have  I have to admit it's a pretty good quote.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7620147 - 11/10/07 09:56 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Your missing my point about Castaneda. He may very well(maybe) have been a huge liar or con man, BUT the way in which his ideas were presented and the ideas themselves are the single most useful self help ideas I have encountered. I have used them to shrug off alcoholism and gain mastery of my health and my profession. If I had never read Castaneda I would most likely still be a disgruntled and disenfranchised alcoholic with a severe weight and health problem...or maybe even dead. As it stands I have transcended those limitations in every way. He kindled in me a desire to know, and that is gold to me. So you see it doesn't matter what he did or said, but what he said to me. Healing is the essence of shamanism and the shaman must first heal the self before any other progress is made.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7620215 - 11/10/07 10:23 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I have repeatedly said that I think it's awesome if his writing has been inspiring to you or anyone else, and I would never try and take that away from you. I don't expect you to defend your interest in it, because just about anything that can inspire a person to grow into a stronger, healthier person is great. I only bother to bring up his sketchiness because I want to make it clear that he is not representing any culture accurately. It's awesome if a person takes personal lessons out of it, but it's not great to think that Don Juan really was a Yaqui shaman, or that what Castaneda talks about has anything to do with the realities of that, or any other, specific culture. That's all. I'm stoked for you that he has been so influential, and has helped you on your path to becoming the person you want to be.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7620220 - 11/10/07 10:25 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

As a side note, I think this is the only topic I've ever made that's elicited anywhere near this many responses!


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7620313 - 11/10/07 11:03 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If I had never read Castaneda I would most likely still be a disgruntled and disenfranchised alcoholic...




Now you are gruntled? :confused:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7620406 - 11/10/07 11:44 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Totally gruntled.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7620423 - 11/10/07 11:54 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

My culture is a mix of traditions that have been bastardized from various "pure" cultures, so it is fitting that our spiritual traditions reflect this. Ultimately the whole issue of whether something comes from a whole or specific culture is nothing more than elitism. Ideas are ideas...cultures are the dogma that various societies generate. In and of themselves cultures are ultimately irrelevant. Ideas are what have value. Culture is just empty programming. I question the fact that you continue to cling to the notion of what a "real" culturally pure shaman is and ascribe this false purity a value that is in reality empty. The native spiritual traditions of man are ours to do with as we see fit. Belonging to any culture other than "humanity" is not necessary to utilize these ideas.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7620442 - 11/11/07 12:03 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I am plagiarizing this entire paragraph for my new book.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7620483 - 11/11/07 12:26 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Just make sure I get a cut.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7620644 - 11/11/07 01:40 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Just make sure I get a cut.



What part of "plagiarize" don't you understand?


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7621099 - 11/11/07 07:12 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Call them what you want. The same 'archetype' arises in almost every culture in every time.
I like celtic druids very much, for example. They are my mind brothers in culture, of the shamans.
Shaman only has become the famous word for this kind of human kind of existence, because it seems this specific siberian tribe was studied primarily. Then the similarities to those in south america were recognized and flux the connections were made to call all those 'people' like that. I think there are many many words in different cultures for this specific kind of human way of existence. I am just too lazy to look it up.
Maybe, modern doctors originally were meant to be the shamans of our present western society. They only left out the psychological aspect of human health on their way to the modern world. Now psychologists have to make their way towards medicinal knowledge. Same for spiritual knowledge.
Castaneda may only be a bridge from that 'shamanistic' archetype of a 'healer' of what he experienced in his life (with this specific indian tribe), mixed with his own subjectivity (also about this 'concept') and then crossed over to the american culture which was in need of some new age-ish 'coloring' of this subject at these times.

BTW:In the last consequence, one could even call Yeshua Ben Miriam (whatever spelling, if this guy existed) a shaman.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (11/11/07 07:27 AM)


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7621230 - 11/11/07 10:12 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Supposed to be this way? Ice, I'm suprised at you! You should know better than anyone that there's no such think as "supposed to be." :smirk: Things are, and if we would prefer them to be otherwise we can act to alter them. (That doesn't mean we'll succeed, just that the option to try is out there.)

And as for Hitler, I caught you with your pants down on that one. :smirk: I have  I have to admit it's a pretty good quote.




You are incorrect or you misunderstand me. We are not in charge of anything but how we choose to interpet and feel about events. The rest is the Tao and if things happen in a certain way then they couldn't have happened in any other,(or they would have). So when I say "supposed" to be I am acknowledging things as they really are. It's like saying the sun is "supposed"  to shine on the earth, because it does. We can't really alter that.

Do you know Hitler and I share the same birth date. 4/20! :satansmoking:Time to light up.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7621233 - 11/11/07 10:15 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Don Juan really was a Yaqui shaman,

Castaneda never made any such statement. I thought you read the books?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7621235 - 11/11/07 10:17 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
My culture is a mix of traditions that have been bastardized from various "pure" cultures, so it is fitting that our spiritual traditions reflect this. Ultimately the whole issue of whether something comes from a whole or specific culture is nothing more than elitism. Ideas are ideas...cultures are the dogma that various societies generate. In and of themselves cultures are ultimately irrelevant. Ideas are what have value. Culture is just empty programming. I question the fact that you continue to cling to the notion of what a "real" culturally pure shaman is and ascribe this false purity a value that is in reality empty. The native spiritual traditions of man are ours to do with as we see fit. Belonging to any culture other than "humanity" is not necessary to utilize these ideas.




So right on. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7621773 - 11/11/07 02:03 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Supposed to be this way? Ice, I'm suprised at you! You should know better than anyone that there's no such think as "supposed to be." :smirk: Things are, and if we would prefer them to be otherwise we can act to alter them. (That doesn't mean we'll succeed, just that the option to try is out there.)

And as for Hitler, I caught you with your pants down on that one. :smirk: I have  I have to admit it's a pretty good quote.




You are incorrect or you misunderstand me. We are not in charge of anything but how we choose to interpet and feel about events. The rest is the Tao and if things happen in a certain way then they couldn't have happened in any other,(or they would have). So when I say "supposed" to be I am acknowledging things as they really are. It's like saying the sun is "supposed"  to shine on the earth, because it does. We can't really alter that.

Do you know Hitler and I share the same birth date. 4/20! :satansmoking:Time to light up.:thumbup:




Well, you're a determinist and I'm a libetarian.

It's undeniable that things have happened as they have happened, but rather than believing that there was no other way things could have happened, I tend to  think that the past is almost arbitrary at times. Things occur sometimes by fluke or chance. Hitler was almost assassinated by a bomb timed to go of on the middle of a speech he was to give, but his train stalled and he was late. He was almost never late, but he was that night. Fascists are famed for running thier trains on time! That one chance fuckup inextricably changed the course of history, or rather allowed it to continue on it's path rather than be radically altered. It's unfortunate.

There is no "should be" or "couldn't have been otherwise" there is just what has been and what currently is. The future unfolds in front of us with a certain realm of possibility already written upon it, due to the momentum and trajectory of the past and present. But there is much room for the agency of willfull groups and individuals to mark upon it. History is like a locamotive charging into the abyss, but people can choose to wave it along, or be bandits. I agree that much is determined, but human agency is a distinct possibility, realized through breaking down socialization.



I read the books like 5 years ago. Sorry if I forget the details.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7621878 - 11/11/07 02:46 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

No matter what you say could have happened the facts state otherwise and always have and always will.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7621988 - 11/11/07 03:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Things did happen the way they did, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been any other way, or that things are the way they are because they are supposed to be the way they are. But if determinism makes you happy, than we'll have to agree to disagree.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7622002 - 11/11/07 03:27 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Yes it does mean it couldn't have been any other way. You don't seem to understand that your position is theory and has never been shown to be possible. On the other hand my position has always proved itself to be true.

Life is the way it is and can be no other way. This is always true and will always show it self to be true. It's the Tao. There is no way to change what has happened and that is because it was "supposed" to happen and it was supposed to happen because it did. There is no way around this. Any thing else is mind games based on delusion and misunderstanding.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/11/07 03:30 PM)


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622005 - 11/11/07 03:28 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Do you know Hitler and I share the same birth date.




Yeah, but did you hafta mimic his ludicrous moustache?


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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7622016 - 11/11/07 03:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Do you know Hitler and I share the same birth date.




Yeah, but did you hafta mimic his ludicrous moustache?



He copied that off of Charlie Chaplain anyway.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7622045 - 11/11/07 03:44 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Did you know that CC and AH were related?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622126 - 11/11/07 04:07 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yes it does mean it couldn't have been any other way. You don't seem to understand that your position is theory and has never been shown to be possible. On the other hand my position has always proved itself to be true.

Life is the way it is and can be no other way. This is always true and will always show it self to be true. It's the Tao. There is no way to change what has happened and that is because it was "supposed" to happen and it was supposed to happen because it did. There is no way around this. Any thing else is mind games based on delusion and misunderstanding.




You don't seem to understand that your position is just as theoretical as any other, and that no matter what position you take on anything, it's all just mind games.

My view is consistent and reasonable, as it is based on the fact that people have the ability to make choices, and do. When you make a choice do you feel that it couldn't possibly be any other way? That it is the only choice you could have possibly made? I certainly don't feel that way at all. The thing that's scary about choice is that once you've done it, there's no going back and choosing differently. But that doesn't negate the fact that, in the moment before a choice has been made, one is able to go either way. The past cannot be changed, but that does not negate the fact that every single person could have made different choices. They didn't, and here we are. There is no changing what has already be done. But this does not mean that anything is "supposed" to be anything at all. Things are the way they are, because they are. "Supposed to" doesn't have anything to do with it.


Edited by NiamhNyx (11/11/07 04:19 PM)


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622162 - 11/11/07 04:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Did you know that CC and AH were related?




Carlos and Adolph?


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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7622170 - 11/11/07 04:18 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7622211 - 11/11/07 04:29 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

One may think they are able to go either way but they never do, they always go one way. And this is the way things are and the evidence for this is that things went that way and no other. Thus the Tao continues on [it's] way, forever creating exactly what is needed for it's fulfillment.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7622215 - 11/11/07 04:30 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Did you know that CC and AH were related?




Carlos and Adolph?




You little shit. I was using that as a set up for silversoul. :rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622228 - 11/11/07 04:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

:blush:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622234 - 11/11/07 04:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I find these debates about free will vs. determinism are based on verbal gymnastics with no side really making any intelligible argument. Free will can be said to exist to the extent that we have the experience of making choices and rightly hold people responsible for the choices they make. Beyond that, who cares?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7622245 - 11/11/07 04:35 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Come on, NN. Don't be afraid to dip your cute painted toe into my "Amazon Magic" thread. It is about a 'real' shaman, not some theoretical construct. It was written by Jaya Bear, the widow of famed Hopi shaman, Sun Bear.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7622293 - 11/11/07 04:47 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I find these debates about free will vs. determinism are based on verbal gymnastics with no side really making any intelligible argument.  Free will can be said to exist to the extent that we have the experience of making choices and rightly hold people responsible for the choices they make.  Beyond that, who cares?




I care. That's why I debate the idea. :wink: I have no choice but to care until I don't and I have no choice about when I don't care because it will happen when it is supposed to. Shall we dance?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622320 - 11/11/07 04:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Shall we dance?



I choose not to. :razz:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7622355 - 11/11/07 05:05 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Too late! Your response is a part of the dance.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7622356 - 11/11/07 05:05 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Then sit down.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7622508 - 11/11/07 05:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Beyond that, who cares?



Me me ! I do I do ! :bouncysmoke: :beatup::seeya:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622597 - 11/11/07 06:24 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
One may think they are able to go either way but they never do, they always go one way. And this is the way things are and the evidence for this is that things went that way and no other. Thus the Tao continues on [it's] way, forever creating exactly what is needed for it's fulfillment.




It is not possible to go two ways at the same time, once a choice has been made it has been made. This does not exclude the very obvious fact that it is possible to choose something other than what one ends up choosing. The fact that one thing has been chosen and not another does not exclude the fact that, at one point, there were other option on the table. Of course one can only go one way at a time, pointing out this fact is not much of an argument. It does absolutely nothing to challenge the fact that before a choice is made there are divergent possibilities.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7623331 - 11/11/07 09:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
My view is consistent and reasonable, as it is based on the fact that people have the ability to make choices, and do.




The chess program on my computer makes choices too!


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7623356 - 11/11/07 10:02 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I find these debates about free will vs. determinism are based on verbal gymnastics with no side really making any intelligible argument.




Well yeah... there is a lot of semantic mumbo jumbo that you always need to plow through in these arguments, but there are also plenty of solid arguments, such as causality, substance dualism, property dualism, idealism, etc.

Quote:

Free will can be said to exist to the extent that we have the experience of making choices and rightly hold people responsible for the choices they make.




You could easily say the exact same thing about determinism.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Shamanism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7623360 - 11/11/07 10:03 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Jesus, would somebody just start or revive a Free Will vs. Determinism thread already!?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Shamanism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7625132 - 11/12/07 12:44 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:

Quote:

Free will can be said to exist to the extent that we have the experience of making choices and rightly hold people responsible for the choices they make.




You could easily say the exact same thing about determinism.



No. Determinism considers choices not 'free' but determined from outer causes or previous causes, so one can't be made responsible for one deeds.
If something subconsciously influences one's choice, one can't say this choice was free and one can blame these causes as origins of the effect.
Justice would be ineffective in the way we handle it nowadays, because everybody would be innocent. The causes are to blame in a deterministic model od human behaviour.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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