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NiamhNyx said:
Something that is painfully irritating to me is how many people think they can just become a shaman by deciding that they are one, or by paying for a class that guides them through some "initiation" process. The definition of a shaman is a person who is culturally recognized as being able to leave thier body, journey to the culture's spirit land, interact with spirits and return to thier body with knowledge. You cannot just decide to be a shaman and be one. If your culture does not have a shamanic tradition, you will never be one. You are of course free to experiment with your consciousness in whatever way you please, but it is terribly disrespectful to the shamanic cultures to ape thier traditions and pretend you can intitiate yourself into something you don't understand.

There is also the fact that the process of becoming a shaman (in cultures that have this pattern) is extremely difficult and often life threatening. I sincerely doubt that any of the weekend courses white folks take come even close to what is involved in the tradition.

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Come on Hue, you know as well as I do that the word is used generally because it's a lot easier than listing off the title every single culture has for the role.

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Yes I know what you say to be true, but MANY native cultures call that disrespect...particularly the Siberian one. Tengerism.org is a site created by the people of this culture, and they discuss this in the following link:
http://www.tengerism.org/origin_of_shaman.html
By the way this site http://www.tengerism.org/ is a very cool informational site.
Now I see your point about the use of the term being a good general term and I see no disrespect whatsoever, but if some guy wants to call  himself a shaman then I see no disrespect there either...which is MY point. Now, using that term to describe ones self might indicate a issue involving self importance...just as any title denotes self importance, but beyond that there is little wrong with it. It is really not worth losing sleep over...and if some idiot can get other people to believe him when he uses that title, then that was a lesson that those people needed to learn. I do believe, however, that shamanic ideas and techniques are relevant to the lives of people in our culture as these views have changed me enormously over the last few years. I did once try to pass myself off as a  transgendered Samoan midget, but being several inches over six foot I could find no one to validate my claim

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Shaman
1: a priest or priestess who uses magic for the purpose of curing the sick, divining the hidden, and controlling events
2: one who resembles a shaman

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The root of this term means "monk" or "priest/priestess," not "culturally recognized as a priest/priestess."  I'm not sure where your strict limitations on the right to use this term originate, but it is not from the actual definition. 

Is not someone who practices shamanism accurately described as "a shaman"?  Certainly you can question whether the practices an individual claims to be involved in are factually shamanistic, but it does not seem reasonable to claim that someone cannot become a shaman without being embedded in a certain culture.

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The point i'm making is that one cannot decide "im a shaman" and in doing so becomes a shaman. A person can certainly take part in shaman-like activity, but to the assert that that is true shamanism is a mistake.

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Veritas said:

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Shaman
1: a priest or priestess who uses magic for the purpose of curing the sick, divining the hidden, and controlling events
2: one who resembles a shaman

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The root of this term means "monk" or "priest/priestess," not "culturally recognized as a priest/priestess."  I'm not sure where your strict limitations on the right to use this term originate, but it is not from the actual definition. 

Is not someone who practices shamanism accurately described as "a shaman"?  Certainly you can question whether the practices an individual claims to be involved in are factually shamanistic, but it does not seem reasonable to claim that someone cannot become a shaman without being embedded in a certain culture.

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Icelander said:
What else then?

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NiamhNyx said:
Your definition is not correct. It is a popularized, generalized definition of the term, a different use of the word entirely. My definition and views on the matter come from, and are broadly accepted in, the field of anthropology. Yeah, there can be a lot to criticize about anthropology. I won't pretend it's flawless, but this is where I'm coming from. A priest is a different kind of thing entirely. There may be some parallels and crossovers, but priest and shaman are essentially different social roles.

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bbaeker said:
is saying that steak is not a vegetable elitist? of course not, because steak and vegetables are specific things...which are different

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A shaman is not a thing, it is an individual with a particular set of abilities.  As such, it is not determined by molecular structure, as is the difference between animal and vegetable matter.  If an individual displays the particular set of abilities, then they are a Shaman whether you think they can be or not. 

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Silversoul said:
I am a shaman, magician
The sun is purple
3D dimensions
I am for mental extensions.

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NiamhNyx said:
I think our disagreement is essentially definitional. Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.

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That's fine, but remember--"my" definition is the one in the dictionary! 

AND demanding that everyone adhere to a standard principle is not very anarchistic of you. 

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my flawless logic and incredible charisma

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NiamhNyx said:
Something that is painfully irritating to me is how many people think they can just become a shaman by deciding that they are one, or by paying for a class that guides them through some "initiation" process. The definition of a shaman is a person who is culturally recognized as being able to leave thier body, journey to the culture's spirit land, interact with spirits and return to thier body with knowledge. You cannot just decide to be a shaman and be one. If your culture does not have a shamanic tradition, you will never be one. You are of course free to experiment with your consciousness in whatever way you please, but it is terribly disrespectful to the shamanic cultures to ape thier traditions and pretend you can intitiate yourself into something you don't understand.

There is also the fact that the process of becoming a shaman (in cultures that have this pattern) is extremely difficult and often life threatening. I sincerely doubt that any of the weekend courses white folks take come even close to what is involved in the tradition.

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Veritas said:

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NiamhNyx said:
Your definition is not correct. It is a popularized, generalized definition of the term, a different use of the word entirely. My definition and views on the matter come from, and are broadly accepted in, the field of anthropology. Yeah, there can be a lot to criticize about anthropology. I won't pretend it's flawless, but this is where I'm coming from. A priest is a different kind of thing entirely. There may be some parallels and crossovers, but priest and shaman are essentially different social roles.

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Anthropology, if I am not mistaken, studies the way things have been done in human cultures.  This does not mean that what is studied can never be done differently, or that the definitions of the past are the only valid ones.  "My" definition comes from the dictionary, and reflects the etymology of the term.  As anthropology views everything through the lens of cultural embeddedness, it is to be expected that this field would define a Shaman as being culturally-determined.

Again, I say that these imposed limitations are elitist and inaccurate.  Whether it is possible to be a Shaman or not, the definition is determined by the actions and abilities, not by the cultural acknowledgement and application of said actions and abilities.

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I'm going to go with my usual all-encompassing/integral-like way of understanding and say that in my opinion, I think its both culturally determined and also based on inner abilities and actions.  I see shamanism and shamans in essence as the primordial psychologist/psychotherapist, an innerspace explorer and healer. These common patterns of social role and inner mentality/being/consciousness has been expressed differently and changed throughout cultures and history.

Don't get me wrong, I think its silly when someone calls themselves a shaman as well after just reading some books or attending a workshop, but the actual role or archetype of what the shaman embodies, I think is somewhat expressed, but fragmented across the modern fields of medicine, psychology, ecology, etc.

Don't know if that makes sense to anyone, but just the way I look at it. 

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NiamhNyx said:
Honey, it's already been brought.;)

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We didn't notice.

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EternalCowabunga said:

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Silversoul said:
I am a shaman, magician
The sun is purple
3D dimensions
I am for mental extensions.

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lol

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Jive turkey said:
I don't see why you would say westerners can't become shaman , If someone was interested in let's say ''Christianity'' who wasn't born into it went out got a bible and started going to church and found god would they not be able to call themselves and Christian just because they were born in a culture that was absent of that religion?

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It appears to the schizophrenic that everyone else in the world is living in an enlightened state, albeit without free will. The schizophrenic believes that s/he is the only one who cannot attain this sacred state, despite the whole world waiting for them to make that final leap of consciousness. Everyone else appears to be aware of a secret language beneath the apparent meaning of words, a magical subtext which creates and shapes the world, but use it without conscience, for they have invested their free will and hope of salvation in the schizophrenic. The schizophrenic meanwhile becomes so bogged down in the secret meaning of words that they can sometimes only be computable to them as individual syllables. Thus "warm" can equate with "war", for example, a state to be avoided. Even words with particular sounds can become diseased, for example the "p" in "happy" can make it an undesirable state.

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Icelander said:
(it's not all about you ya know)

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Really?

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Bard said:
Terence McKenna said in one of his lectures, that "the Shaman is the smart guy." And if you are this shaman, this smart guy, and go to a completely different culture, for example an amazonian or siberian tribal shamanic culture, the shaman will know you, and you will know the shaman, you maybe can't communicate with the other tribe members, because of cultural differences, but you can communicate with the shaman. You are on a different level, than the others.

I sometimes think about myself as a smart guy , but never tested this theory... Last night under the influence of enormous amount of alcohol I met a black guy, who claimed that he was from Haiti. I tried to get information from him about voodoo and zombies, but he was very secretive.  We laughed a lot nevertheless... He was too funny. 

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The shaman is the smart guy?

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Hell yes! He makes a living giving out spiritual advice and talking to spirits while every other guy in the tribe is busting their asses with hard work.