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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Shamanism
    #7589443 - 11/02/07 10:56 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Something that is painfully irritating to me is how many people think they can just become a shaman by deciding that they are one, or by paying for a class that guides them through some "initiation" process. The definition of a shaman is a person who is culturally recognized as being able to leave thier body, journey to the culture's spirit land, interact with spirits and return to thier body with knowledge. You cannot just decide to be a shaman and be one. If your culture does not have a shamanic tradition, you will never be one. You are of course free to experiment with your consciousness in whatever way you please, but it is terribly disrespectful to the shamanic cultures to ape thier traditions and pretend you can intitiate yourself into something you don't understand.

There is also the fact that the process of becoming a shaman (in cultures that have this pattern) is extremely difficult and often life threatening. I sincerely doubt that any of the weekend courses white folks take come even close to what is involved in the tradition.


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Offlineaaei67
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7589493 - 11/02/07 11:12 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, come on. If someone wants to call themselves a Shaman, they're free to do it, it doesn't mean you have to recognize or respect that. Someone who calls themselves a shaman is a) a shaman or b) some kid who takes some drugs and wants to find a "cool" way to justify it. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch over. I mean all this with total respect, by the way


--------------------
"LSD is really baby blood"

danlennon3 said:
whoever isn't permanently tripping just isn't paying attention


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OfflinePsychedelicPhish
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Re: Shamanism [Re: aaei67]
    #7589517 - 11/02/07 11:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

i feel your pain man, people are like that with everything though


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7589518 - 11/02/07 11:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Please explain why a person must have shamanic tradition in their culture to be a shaman.

Not that I really care, I don't believe in shamanism. But just for the sake of arguement.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7589568 - 11/02/07 11:39 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

People are free to call themselves whatever they want, but it doesn't mean that that's what they are. I can tell people I am the Pope, but that doesn't make me the Pope.


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Invisiblebudmanman
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7589634 - 11/02/07 11:59 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I am insane


--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.


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Offlinebbaeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: budmanman]
    #7589738 - 11/03/07 12:45 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

i have a friend who thinks he's a shaman because he eats lots of mushrooms. i am a shaman because i eat lots of mushrooms...but my friend isnt...just joking, neither of us are shamans. anyway, shamanism can be a broad category. the reason we dont have shamans in our society is because we are so incredibally materialistis, we have to ritual or initiation, we are just devoid of the entire concept. People of our culture, however, can participate in shamanic activity, but doing so takes a hell of a lot more than just taking a class or reading a book, it would have to involve an actual initiation in the truest sense, something that is really so incredibly elusive. a person cant necessarily "decide" to become a shaman, and the be a shaman, they need to be "ushered in" somehow. If one is really interested in the ideas of shamanism, a good place to start is Marcea Eliade's "shamanism: archaic techniques of ecstacy" which is what shamanism is in its most basic form, inducing ecstacy in order to (primarily) cure sickness and disease, although many other tasks are undertaken by that shaman to the aid of the community which he/she is a part of.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7589780 - 11/03/07 12:58 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

If you know this then you should recognize your blatant misuse of the term shamanism. Only ONE culture in the world practices shamanism. That would be the tribal Siberian culture. This is THE ONLY shamanic culture. Native Americans would be very quick to point out that the word shaman does not describe the practitioners of their spiritual traditions, and to use that word is very disrespectful. However we recognize the commonalities shared by many primitive cultures and we use the Siberian term shaman as a general description of that type of practice. Likewise, I recognize that many ideas and techniques used by these traditions are useful to me, and I engage in their practice to achieve a desired end. Getting hung up on labels is an ego game which is best avoided.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinebbaeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7589803 - 11/03/07 01:08 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Huehuecoyotl i agree with you 100% percent, and yes the word shaman does strictly come from siberian origins and i was using the word as a generalisation for what it denotes.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7589805 - 11/03/07 01:08 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Our culture doesn't have shamanism because we are a totally different kind of culture than those that have it. We are a modern state society, and cultures with shamanism tend to be somewhere between hunter-gatherer -> chiefdom level societies. The type of society we have doesn't have a place for the social role of a shaman. Whether one likes this or not, it is the circumstances under which we live.

Anyone is welcome to participate in what may be called 'shamanic activity' - taking psychedelic drugs, dancing themselves into trance, etc. with the intention of entering a spirit world, communicating with spirits and bringing useful knowledge back. But it is simply disrespectful to these traditions for one to call themselves a shaman. We lack the appropriate context. It is important to remember that a shaman is culturally recognized as such. This is key. Thier social role exists because everyone else recognizes it. It is part of a whole.

They recieve a great deal of training in apprenticeship to another shaman including the entire mythology of thier culture, vast knowledge of medicines and the causes of illness, and the techniques of entering trance states. It's a lot more involved than just eating a lot of mushrooms.


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Offlinebbaeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7589814 - 11/03/07 01:10 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

once again, i absolutely agree wholeheartedly. you are right and ther is no argument here NiamhNyx


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7589823 - 11/03/07 01:14 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Huehue, I recognize that the term comes from the Tungus of Siberia. But it is reasonable, with consideration of the differences between various cultures, to use the term to refer to a particular pattern that appears worldwide. There are common features of the role that are shared in every culture that has it. It is incredibly widespread. I would never deny anyone use of the techniques, I am only arguing that it is disrespectful to claim the title.


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Offlinebbaeker
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7589944 - 11/03/07 02:27 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

not only that, but to claim the title without proper context is completely fallacious


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: bbaeker]
    #7590767 - 11/03/07 01:42 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I'm glad that we can agree. I'm almost suprised (and, admittedly, a little disappointed) that there hasn't been one poster in here arguing that they are a shaman because they 'felt a calling' and took a weekend course.


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7590813 - 11/03/07 01:57 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

...


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OfflineBrandNoob
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7590830 - 11/03/07 02:03 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Gotta love dependent origination. This is a good thread.


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All posts were channeled through the user by typing the thoughts of telepathic beings.  All photos are of paranormal origin and do not represent the physical world, as we know it.  BrandNoob shall not be held accountable for the actions of deceased or hyperdimensional individuals.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: BrandNoob]
    #7590832 - 11/03/07 02:04 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

What is dependent origination???


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OfflineBrandNoob
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7590876 - 11/03/07 02:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

As I understand, it's essentially saying that the two things being talked about cannot be described without the context of the other. You cannot describe an object without describing its environment. You may discuss its height, color and general outline - but none of those mean anything without their surrounding context. The height is irrelevant without the heights of other things (or a unit of measure) to compare to. The end of the object is meaningless without the air surrounding it.

There is no shaman without a culture that recognizes the shaman, there is no culture that recognizes a shaman without the existence of the shaman.

What I find interesting is that since our society doesn't respect voyagers of the inner/other realm, an entire subset of society (the psychedelic counterculture) has arisen. Populated with mainly sight-seers and tourists of the mind/soul, there are some recognized individuals who are known to be particularly adept travelers of the spirit. Would not these individuals meet the (non-Siberian) definition of "shaman" that was given above by various posters?


--------------------
All posts were channeled through the user by typing the thoughts of telepathic beings.  All photos are of paranormal origin and do not represent the physical world, as we know it.  BrandNoob shall not be held accountable for the actions of deceased or hyperdimensional individuals.


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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7590948 - 11/03/07 02:39 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Something that is painfully irritating to me is how many people think they can just become a shaman by deciding that they are one, or by paying for a class that guides them through some "initiation" process. The definition of a shaman is a person who is culturally recognized as being able to leave thier body, journey to the culture's spirit land, interact with spirits and return to thier body with knowledge. You cannot just decide to be a shaman and be one. If your culture does not have a shamanic tradition, you will never be one. You are of course free to experiment with your consciousness in whatever way you please, but it is terribly disrespectful to the shamanic cultures to ape thier traditions and pretend you can intitiate yourself into something you don't understand.

There is also the fact that the process of becoming a shaman (in cultures that have this pattern) is extremely difficult and often life threatening. I sincerely doubt that any of the weekend courses white folks take come even close to what is involved in the tradition.




word man very fucking true Damn kids and that includes you 40 year old man that goes to one of these thigns and thinks he is.

to become a true medicine man you have to constantly do the shit and be born with it in you. if you learning from someone who your not a decendant from of how to be a medicine man then your not. if you are one and your learning cross culturely practices thats differnt.
a few key things in being one you tend to heal people truely even physical wounds not just spiritual, because healing physical wounds can lead to healing the soul. also you need your tribe,group of people, what ever the fuck they call them selves these days.

i have to say having a healing circle is an amazing feeling but it requires alot of faith and trust. and half the people that claim to be a shaman arnt worthy of that


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


Edited by thedudenj (11/03/07 02:43 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7591195 - 11/03/07 03:50 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

, but it is terribly disrespectful to the shamanic cultures

This is a problem for me. My "pretending" to be a shaman or whatever is my own business however it turns out. Disrespecting a culture would IMO be killing them off. Are these cultures so fragile that doing something that they don't agree with hurts them? It only does if they let it. Cultures are made up of people and people need to be responsible for their emotional states.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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