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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7607813 - 11/07/07 06:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The shaman is the smart guy?




Hell yes! He makes a living giving out spiritual advice and talking to spirits while every other guy in the tribe is busting their asses with hard work. :thumbup:


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7607892 - 11/07/07 07:07 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

:lol: Sure, at the expense of a traumatic, life threatening training and initation. Would you rather take on malevolent spirits that are definitly going to kill you (at least temporarily) in your intiation journey, or pick berries and go fishing?


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OfflineBard
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7610014 - 11/08/07 08:12 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I think Terence meant that the shaman is not just an ordinary smart guy, or intelligent person, but the smart guy... The one who knows, who can see behind the illusion, the Maya, etc. Maybe, as Hue said, that is why he/she can make his living without hard work, and just talking spiritual... That is one aspect of the whole thing. The traumatic initiation is can be true also, it is required for him, or anybody to make to that spiritual level... Icelander you are right too, I remember that he said that too... Ha spoke a lot about shamanism... :laugh:

Quote:


You think that some white dude who can't manage to communicate with a regular person about regular things is gonna manage to communicate with a shaman about complex, abstract concepts about the culture and their mythos?




I don't know... I never had this experience... But maybe two real shamans will not even want to speak about complex abstract concepts... Maybe they completely satisfied with communicating nonverbally or getting high together or something...  :shrug:


--------------------
So dreaming let's you know reality exists.



I don't belive. I fear.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Bard]
    #7610463 - 11/08/07 12:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Shamanism is hard work- mentally, emotionally and physically. It isn't just 'talking spiritual.'


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7612073 - 11/08/07 07:12 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think that shamanism is hard work or even work. For one who has been through the "initiation" or crisis there is really no choice. It is a gift that one cannot refuse. Castaneda called such gifts "gifts of power" for that very reason.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7612699 - 11/08/07 10:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Fair enough, my point is that it isn't bumming around, it isn't easy. It's a pretty big thing to step up to and it's silly to characterize it as a great way to get out of having to do the kind of work everyone else does.

Castaneda was a huckster though, so I really can't take him seriously as a source. He never apprenticed with anyone, but rather hung out in a village a few times chasing pretty women around while the shamans went to the mountains to do ceremonies. He amalgamated a bunch of info he found in various field studies other people did and just sort of made up a believable and interesting story. It's a great work of fiction, but he isn't an authoritative source. This doesn't mean that a person can't get valuable insights from reading him. :shrug:


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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7613168 - 11/09/07 12:57 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

He never apprenticed with anyone, but rather hung out in a village a few times chasing pretty women around while the shamans went to the mountains to do ceremonies.




I think he was on to something...


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7613200 - 11/09/07 01:07 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps. :smirk:


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OfflineMyOwnReality
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7613609 - 11/09/07 04:00 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

"To become a shaman one must: a) recieve a 'call' which may come in a dream, the strange behaviour of an animal, or something like that b) accept the call and begin training as a shaman's apprentice c) Learn everything there is to know about the culture's mythology in a manner much deeper than many other members of the culture would d)learn about the causes and cures of illnesses e) learn all there is to know about medicines."

First of all, you speak in very definite terms for one who lives in such a subjective universe. Were you to drop the terms 'is, am, and are' from your vocabulary you might start to understand science in a whole new light.

First of all, I am of mostly european descent, a little cherokee, but mostly irish, german, and scottish. All my ancesters were of a shamanic culture before that was wiped out by the romans, but more so the catholic church. I define my own culture, not the other way around, because it is my own reality.

A) I recieved the call when i was 17 in the form of a heavenly voice, I've been following visions through my life since. They seem to manifest.

B) who should I apprentice under? I looked and quested for years but eventually I found my spirit guide to be the best teacher. The best shamans work as fascilitators any ways, and as I've stated to the wise men of the other tribes, who taught the first shaman?

C)How can one know everything about ones culture and mythology? Stories and visions very from village to village, with each telling of a story the story changes. Given this thought how is it possible to know everything?

D)This is something that is a life time process, though I've been involved for sometime. As a child I wanted to be a doctor, and thusly medicine is an interesting topic I've been research through out my life. Though I've not the paper or formal training I've been practicing massage for some 14 years now, and energy work for the past 4.

E) Knowing everything about the medicines is once again impossible. To know everything seems very limiting, that places a finite level on ones consciousness. Ideally one constantly learns through life, new lessons lead to new ideas and we grow as individuals and collectives. But I've been studying chemistry, ethnobotony, and medicine for the past 8 years.

I'm not sure why you are so adamant about this subject. It seems that the college folk (of which I use to be a part) think everything has to be so structured, and everything is black and white. All orders must be elite, and anything which isn't generally approved of is heresy. Might I remind you that some time ago Newton was an outcast among his world?

Somebody else mentioned that a shaman who travels outside of his realm wouldn't be recognized, but why then does Narby describe the shamans of the amazon as being required to leave their village and tribe to learn shamanism from another tribe? Somebody else mentioned that the shamans recognize each other, this is true. I've experienced mutual recognition with others on many occasions, though sometimes its an uncomfortable one. In this loose society it seems very easy for one to become lost in the seedy part of the spirit world, and not all shamans behave well.

As far as being recognized, I don't go around tellin every body about my spiritual life. It is not important that they know what I do for them. However, often times I find myself being asked spiritual questions and being looked to for guidance. Generally among my tribe I'm recognized for having a gift of speech, a gift of clear vision, and a gift for the healing touch.

On a side note, in most societies it seems that the shaman is paid some due, if he becomes crippled he will be taken care of(but aren't all people in those societies). But generally shamans tend to be quite avid hunters, gathers and builders. We work just as hard as everyone else in the tribe, but do to our calling we have extra duties, that while at times might excuse us from the daily chores; generally end up in an added workload. Though the 'medicine men' in the suburbs of south american cities who cater to tourists probably aren't big on work.

And so are my thoughts on this conversation, it seems somebodies has to throw a rock at the other side of the scale to try and balance it.
-MOR


--------------------
www.youtube.com/morstories


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7614200 - 11/09/07 11:03 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Shamanism is hard work- mentally, emotionally and physically. It isn't just 'talking spiritual.'




And you know this how?

I think many regular folk in their personal struggles (mostly unseen) do the same thing every day.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/09/07 11:04 AM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7614487 - 11/09/07 12:36 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I know this the same way I know anything else I haven't experienced: observation, research and certain amount of educated assumption. You're probably right about the personal struggles thing. And I know you know that ain't easy. Point made.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7615527 - 11/09/07 04:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

NN, you get props for dissing Castaneda in front of the Dynamic Duo, Hue and Ice. :thumbup:

When I do, they attack like a pack of rabid dogs and I run off ragged and bleeding...


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Re: Shamanism [Re: BrandNoob]
    #7615875 - 11/09/07 05:50 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BrandNoob said:
As I understand, it's essentially saying that the two things being talked about cannot be described without the context of the other. You cannot describe an object without describing its environment. You may discuss its height, color and general outline - but none of those mean anything without their surrounding context. The height is irrelevant without the heights of other things (or a unit of measure) to compare to. The end of the object is meaningless without the air surrounding it.

There is no shaman without a culture that recognizes the shaman, there is no culture that recognizes a shaman without the existence of the shaman.

What I find interesting is that since our society doesn't respect voyagers of the inner/other realm, an entire subset of society (the psychedelic counterculture) has arisen. Populated with mainly sight-seers and tourists of the mind/soul, there are some recognized individuals who are known to be particularly adept travelers of the spirit. Would not these individuals meet the (non-Siberian) definition of "shaman" that was given above by various posters?




If our use of words is based upon what is socially and culturally recognized, is there even such thing as a drug use that isn't drug abuse? By popular definition aren't we all just drug fiends here? I realize this is an exageration of the concept, but it might demonstrate the point. What something is, is what it does. Are there any words that are more fitting for the general spiritual or conscious-expanding use of drugs, in modern society?


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7616363 - 11/09/07 08:38 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
NN, you get props for dissing Castaneda in front of the Dynamic Duo, Hue and Ice. :thumbup:

When I do, they attack like a pack of rabid dogs and I run off ragged and bleeding...




:lol: That's because you're a fun target. You know how it goes: when you're the fastest shot in town, every little punk with something to prove wants to take you on.

To make that context appropriate: when you're the most critical curmudgeon on the board, every cranky intellectual with something to prove wants to take you on.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7616392 - 11/09/07 08:46 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:

If our use of words is based upon what is socially and culturally recognized, is there even such thing as a drug use that isn't drug abuse? By popular definition aren't we all just drug fiends here? I realize this is an exageration of the concept, but it might demonstrate the point. What something is, is what it does. Are there any words that are more fitting for the general spiritual or conscious-expanding use of drugs, in modern society?




This doesn't work, because there is a wide diversity of opinion with regards to drugs in our society. The word 'drugs' isn't inherently bound to any specific value statement.

Also, the word "drugs" refers to an objective category of things. It is not a word that refers to a social role and thus must be defined specifically to be of any meaning. If someone picked up a clock radio and said "this is a drug," people would either think that they were deluded or that they were addicted to listening to the radio.

As for words refering to the spiritual potential of drugs: what about entheogen?


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7616564 - 11/09/07 09:31 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

yes that is exactly the term I was thinking of. But a substance is only an entheogen in relation to us, so what are we in relation to it?

What is the correct word for a modern appreciator of entheogens?


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shamanism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7616641 - 11/09/07 09:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't know what we are in relation to it. I don't know if fungi or plants experience some sort of consciousness entirely unlike ours. It's possible I suppose. Maybe we aren't anything to it. Maybe we're that fucker that keeps picking it to eat when it's growing perfectly contended on its own.

I'm not sure what the correct word would be. Theres probably a bunch to choose from. Maybe psychonaut? Inner-space explorer? Other-world journeyer? I dunno.


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Offlineenesi
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Re: Shamanism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7616776 - 11/09/07 10:34 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
yes that is exactly the term I was thinking of. But a substance is only an entheogen in relation to us, so what are we in relation to it?

What is the correct word for a modern appreciator of entheogens?



I was contemplating this just the other day. Those of us who traverse the other realms, what are we labeled as in our own culture? Drug users..hippies..."urban shaman" maybe, lol.

I have turned on many people to this lifestyle, introduced them to psychedelics and gave them guidance on their own personal journeys into the unknown. I feel like some sort of teacher, guide, mentor kinda thing during those times.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7616890 - 11/09/07 11:14 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

yea I usually say something along these lines when its necessary. For some reason I never get any respect when I refer to myself as a conquistador of consciousness though.

I looked up the etymology for shaman and it seems to be cross- cultural:

1698, "priest of the Ural-Altaic peoples,"

probably via Ger. Schamane, from Rus. shaman, from Tungus shaman, which is perhaps from Chinese sha men "Buddhist monk," from Prakrit samaya-, from Skt. sramana-s "Buddhist ascetic."

Just some food for thought...


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Shamanism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7616909 - 11/09/07 11:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Its hard to believe that language actually reflects life to the extent that there is no word for modern shaman, or whatever you wanna call it.

I mean Imagine youre being tried in court to justify your religious/spiritual use of mushrooms, but you cant make any statement, because theres no such words. :lol:

By the way, great thread NiamhNyx, I usually dont ever post here anymore...


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