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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622320 - 11/11/07 04:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Shall we dance?



I choose not to. :razz:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,399
Loc: Under the C
Re: Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7622355 - 11/11/07 05:05 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Too late! Your response is a part of the dance.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7622356 - 11/11/07 05:05 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Then sit down.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 8 months, 29 days
Re: Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7622508 - 11/11/07 05:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Beyond that, who cares?



Me me ! I do I do ! :bouncysmoke: :beatup::seeya:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Shamanism [Re: Icelander]
    #7622597 - 11/11/07 06:24 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
One may think they are able to go either way but they never do, they always go one way. And this is the way things are and the evidence for this is that things went that way and no other. Thus the Tao continues on [it's] way, forever creating exactly what is needed for it's fulfillment.




It is not possible to go two ways at the same time, once a choice has been made it has been made. This does not exclude the very obvious fact that it is possible to choose something other than what one ends up choosing. The fact that one thing has been chosen and not another does not exclude the fact that, at one point, there were other option on the table. Of course one can only go one way at a time, pointing out this fact is not much of an argument. It does absolutely nothing to challenge the fact that before a choice is made there are divergent possibilities.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Shamanism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7623331 - 11/11/07 09:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
My view is consistent and reasonable, as it is based on the fact that people have the ability to make choices, and do.




The chess program on my computer makes choices too!


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7623356 - 11/11/07 10:02 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I find these debates about free will vs. determinism are based on verbal gymnastics with no side really making any intelligible argument.




Well yeah... there is a lot of semantic mumbo jumbo that you always need to plow through in these arguments, but there are also plenty of solid arguments, such as causality, substance dualism, property dualism, idealism, etc.

Quote:

Free will can be said to exist to the extent that we have the experience of making choices and rightly hold people responsible for the choices they make.




You could easily say the exact same thing about determinism.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Shamanism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7623360 - 11/11/07 10:03 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Jesus, would somebody just start or revive a Free Will vs. Determinism thread already!?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Last seen: 8 months, 29 days
Re: Shamanism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7625132 - 11/12/07 12:44 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:

Quote:

Free will can be said to exist to the extent that we have the experience of making choices and rightly hold people responsible for the choices they make.




You could easily say the exact same thing about determinism.



No. Determinism considers choices not 'free' but determined from outer causes or previous causes, so one can't be made responsible for one deeds.
If something subconsciously influences one's choice, one can't say this choice was free and one can blame these causes as origins of the effect.
Justice would be ineffective in the way we handle it nowadays, because everybody would be innocent. The causes are to blame in a deterministic model od human behaviour.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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