Shroomism said:

What 9000 BC europeans? That wouldn't surprise me.

What about the Chinese, who used herbs and other holistic methods for healing? They had a life expectancy of 61 years in that era.

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So, shamanism delivers less tangible benefits (is less valuable) than Britney Spears albums, SUV's and support for George W. Bush... 

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I hope you typed that with an ironic smile!   

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Editor's note: Very few, if any, responses were free from overt emotionalism and going completely astray. Where is the self-control? Have we learned nothing?

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The equation has not been solved, but the steps to get there are being learned . Thats why your here though... is it not? To teach on how to get through the process?
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My responses were the result of the various questions that boggled in my mind... as to why you created the post... To my position, i felt i had to assume different possibilities in order to find your real position on the issue... which i realized what you were asking while writing it... to a degree.
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My point with the whole Arcchitect construction thing had to do with how people live and build with the land, and how that relates as a desire for more... ie. consumerism, your city of excess, etc. In that regards seeing as how a core structure supports all of the same type of activity, yes in my eye i think some ideas of "shamanism" or living with the Land were a good thing, because the current rate for consumption has no care of the harm it causes on the planet as long as it doesnt keep people from making money.
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Even though each shamanic culture was different, that essentially was THEIR CLAIM, not mine - and is proved to be pathetic in the face of real physical power.

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  It was not higher spirituality, but fewer numbers that kept the land relatively unpolluted. India is considered a holy country, but is a cesspool.

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I think it is incredibly weak reading comprehension to assume things that I did NOT say.

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The shaman DID NOT protect the tribe into the modern era. That would seem to relegate him to obsolescence for that major function, now would it not?

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for the major function of protection? Yes i agree with you on that, that is obvious.
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Why would you have responded if it did not press some of your buttons? I had to get a rise out of you some how

It would be hard to avoid so many responses with such an open ended question, and from such a person who is known to get a rise out of the shroomerites    

silversoul7 said:

I fail to see any tangible(or intangible) benefits to be gained from buying a Britney Spears album.

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infidelGOD said:

less tangible = less valuable???

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Phluck said:

You can't possible reduce all of western culture down to Britney Spears.

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Think of your favorite musicians, artists, movies, books... how many of them come from western countries?

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Swami said:

can't possible reduce all of western culture down to Britney Spears.

What about Disco? 

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That is hysterical.  I just love it when a thread has gone serious and a bit of humor is injected at just the right moment!

That was humor, wasn't it? 
(crosses fingers) 

Swami said:

and this they call advanced they are all a bunch of Inspector Gadget's. thats all it is stupid gadgets.

Yet, YOU are using those gadgets that you decry to transmit your opinion - no hypocrisy there.

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Swami said:

The FACT of the matter is the the least shamanic societies (like the USA) are enormously successful in survival.

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shamanistic cultures may have been greatly overshadowed by other cultures, but that doesn't mean shamanism has failed.
I guess NO SURVIVAL equals a smashing success in your mind.

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Like someone pointed out before me, shamanism HAS survived, and is coming back quickly, precisely within very technological societies (coincidence?). I guess it's improbable it will prevail over what we know as 'Western' culture, but claiming it didn't survive is just a mistake.

And yet, Swami, you do have a point. I've been thinking along those lines as well. I used to idealise shamanism and shamans in a way. I used to see shamans as some kind of saints. To me, if you came in contact with the 'Overmind' (call it whatever you will) on a very regular base and for a long period of time, you were inevitably bound to become someone very enlightened. Until I traveled to Peru this summer, to finally meet real shamans...

Not that I was disappointed. Shamans are, it seems, very gentle people, very knowledgeable, they have many features I expected. But they also tend to be very manipulative, specially when it comes to women and sexual issues, and they definitely did not eliminate greed, some of them are even very good at it... I noticed these things myself, and they were confirmed to me by people who've worked with shamans for most of their lives, so I'm not just wildly generalising.
Like you stated, shamanism was used (and probably still is, in a way) to gain insights in how to efficiently wage wars against the enemy. While I, naive as I was, would have thought that tripping this often would make anyone give up any kind of violence forever...

The only plausible answer that was ever given to me about this question is that when it comes to shamanism, you have to distinguish between the tool itself (shamanism) and the people who use(d) it: premodern tribes. The assumption that tripping makes people better probably only fits our modern culture, where the individual can reflect on himself as such. In tribal cultures, there's no real individuality. Every member of a tribe is a part of his tribe in the first place, the tribe is good and the enemy is bad. If something goes wrong, the obvious answer is to look for outside causes and wage war against them if necessary. Shamans do not practice shamanism to become better people or to change their fellow tribesmen, but to gain advantages (health, good hunts, victory over enemies...) for themselves and their tribes. Spiritual evolution is a concept that fits better with our culture than theirs, but for which shamanism could be very usefull still...

So, I don't know about this explanation. To me, tripping very often should be influential enough to change cultures and worldviews... so I still don't know. Thanks for asking, but don't be misled by some of your phoney arguments...