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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2103123 - 11/13/03 09:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
What 9000 BC europeans? That wouldn't surprise me.

What about the Chinese, who used herbs and other holistic methods for healing? They had a life expectancy of 61 years in that era.




Good point! But was it due to so-called "Shamanism", or the fact that China was, at the time, one of the more technologically advanced nations?


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2103150 - 11/13/03 09:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

So, shamanism delivers less tangible benefits (is less valuable) than Britney Spears albums, SUV's and support for George W. Bush... 




I hope you typed that with an ironic smile!  :grin: 


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2103152 - 11/13/03 09:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I fail to see any tangible(or intangible) benefits to be gained from buying a Britney Spears album.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2103247 - 11/13/03 09:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Editor's note: Very few, if any, responses were free from overt emotionalism and going completely astray. Where is the self-control? Have we learned nothing?



 

The equation has not been solved, but the steps to get there are being learned :wink:. Thats why your here though... is it not? To teach on how to get through the process?
--------
My responses were the result of the various questions that boggled in my mind... as to why you created the post... To my position, i felt i had to assume different possibilities in order to find your real position on the issue... which i realized what you were asking while writing it... to a degree.
----------------------
My point with the whole Arcchitect construction thing had to do with how people live and build with the land, and how that relates as a desire for more... ie. consumerism, your city of excess, etc. In that regards seeing as how a core structure supports all of the same type of activity, yes in my eye i think some ideas of "shamanism" or living with the Land were a good thing, because the current rate for consumption has no care of the harm it causes on the planet as long as it doesnt keep people from making money.
------
Quote:

Even though each shamanic culture was different, that essentially was THEIR CLAIM, not mine - and is proved to be pathetic in the face of real physical power.





thats what i wanted to know.
---------------------------
Quote:

  It was not higher spirituality, but fewer numbers that kept the land relatively unpolluted. India is considered a holy country, but is a cesspool.





My intention was not to argue the aspect of spirituality in regards to the success of the shamans.  My intention was to point out the behavior that they used in regards to their adaptation with the natural environment.

-----------------

Quote:

I think it is incredibly weak reading comprehension to assume things that I did NOT say.





i had full intentions of assuming your point, seeing as how i could not gather that else where.... Im not saying it excuses me or anything, or makes my point any more important... But the whole idea of making assumptions was to get you to react in order for me to find your position.
-------------------------------------
 
Quote:

The shaman DID NOT protect the tribe into the modern era. That would seem to relegate him to obsolescence for that major function, now would it not?





for the major function of protection? Yes i agree with you on that, that is obvious.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Why would you have responded if it did not press some of your buttons? I had to get a rise out of you some how :smile:

It would be hard to avoid so many responses with such an open ended question, and from such a person who is known to get a rise out of the shroomerites :wink:  :grin: 


--------------------
What?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2103304 - 11/13/03 10:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

So, shamanism delivers less tangible benefits (is less valuable) than Britney Spears albums, SUV's and support for George W. Bush...

:confused:
less tangible = less valuable???
 


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2103348 - 11/13/03 10:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I fail to see any tangible(or intangible) benefits to be gained from buying a Britney Spears album.



Her record sales would indicate that there are others who gain the emotional benefit of enjoyable entertainment (I am not one of those). If we are being democratic about it, I would say that the people have spoken, via their actions they have shown that Ms Spears is more highly valued than shamanism.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 days, 10 hours
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Evolving]
    #2103380 - 11/13/03 10:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You can't possible reduce all of western culture down to Britney Spears.

Think of your favorite musicians, artists, movies, books... how many of them come from western countries?



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2103418 - 11/13/03 10:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
:confused:
less tangible = less valuable???



Actually, less tangible benefits can be considered less valuable (keeping in mind that value is subjective).  As I stated in my response to Silversoul, some may be getting the emotional benefit of enjoyable entertainment.  Others may appreciate having a vehicle to get them to and from their girlfriend's house (or wherever).  Others may be appreciative of the actions of our current occupant of the White House and like seeing the dollar valuation (or dividends) of their stock in companies that comprise the military industrial complex rise.  Apparently, very few people see shamanism as bringing any benefits to their lives or it would be more widely appreciated.  Perhaps using the word, 'tangible' when referring to what can be felt emotionally or enjoyed is not using the best terminology to communicate what I meant, for that I apologize (feel free to suggest a more approriate word).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Phluck]
    #2103431 - 11/13/03 10:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
You can't possible reduce all of western culture down to Britney Spears.



No you can't. (Not in my mind anyway)

Quote:

Think of your favorite musicians, artists, movies, books... how many of them come from western countries?



The majority of them.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Phluck]
    #2103531 - 11/13/03 11:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

can't possible reduce all of western culture down to Britney Spears.

What about Disco?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 days, 10 hours
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2103567 - 11/13/03 11:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

After listening to Chewing Wolf's Shamanic Chants vol. 4, I've got to say it was really just a rehash of the same ground Buoyant Moose covered in the late 70's, and dozens of artists have been delving into since. I mean, come on people, when is someone really going to reinvent the shamanic chant?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2106187 - 11/14/03 02:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
can't possible reduce all of western culture down to Britney Spears.

What about Disco? 




:lol:

That is hysterical.  I just love it when a thread has gone serious and a bit of humor is injected at just the right moment!

That was humor, wasn't it?  :confused:
(crosses fingers) 


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: ]
    #2107510 - 11/14/03 09:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

what is shamanism anyway? Does anybody know? A few probably do but most of you are reacting to the distracting and incendiary statements about how technoculture is superior. That's all irrelevant, though. Swami's question is why did it fail to protect the tribe against destruction, so here's the answer, I'll present it as a play:

Paleontologist: The Tyranosaurus Rex used it's mighty teeth and claws to tear into it's prey. These jaw-mounted razorblades ensured the T-rex's survival..

Swami: But wait, the Tyranosaurus is extinct, right?

Paleontologist: Well, yes..

Swami: Then clearly, the teeth and claws were worthless!

Paleontologist: My God.. you're right.. Swami! You're a genius!

See, there's something wrong with that. You're creating this argument attacking something that doesn't exist, which is the claim that a shaman can ensure the tribes survival in all situations. The shaman ensures the survival of the tribe in their "natural" state but when the environment changes rapidly then naturally things are going to have to change. Lack of adaptation results in death. This is called "natural selection" which results in "evolution."

Maybe what you're trying to get at is that shamanism doesn't help people survive in any situation. That's a completetly different argument. This one has been settled, here's our score so far swami:

You- 0
Me- 1

bring on the next round.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 25,845
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Last seen: 16 minutes, 57 seconds
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2107578 - 11/14/03 09:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
and this they call advanced they are all a bunch of Inspector Gadget's. thats all it is stupid gadgets.

Yet, YOU are using those gadgets that you decry to transmit your opinion - no hypocrisy there.





Do you use medicine? Are you aware that a very large percentage of western medicine comes from Shamanism. Shamanic medicine in the Americas was centuries ahead of western medicine not too long ago, and still holds knowledge yet to be discovered by western science.

Are you a hypocrite for using medicine?


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Don't vibe my harsh, bro.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2107729 - 11/14/03 11:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

See, there's something wrong with that. You're creating this argument attacking something that doesn't exist, which is the claim that a shaman can ensure the tribes survival in all situations.

You make a good point, but overlook one facet: most shamans, BY THEIR OWN CLAIMS, use their entry into the spirit world to divine the future and sometimes to use black magic to protect their tribe from invaders.

Truly seeing into the future gives one ENORMOUS adaptablity.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2107825 - 11/14/03 11:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

well, when they say that they can see into the future do they mean that was we think they do. Take this:

I was reading that the inuit used to read the waves before they set out in their one-man kayaks to hunt whales. Reading the waves would tell them whether it was going to be a good day to ride out in their kayaks or not. Reading the waves involves considering the interplay between 5 waves:waves of the weather system leaving, waves of the weather systm arriving, waves of the tide, waves caused by the shape of the shore and the terrain beneath the water, and one other one I can't remember.

Maybe someone reading the waves or doing something similiar once told someone that they could see the future to someone who took that to mean something completely different. Could be a translation problem.

Because really I'm skeptical that there are many shamans who claim to be able to see the future because it's a ridiculous claim. Any shaman who claims to be able to see into the future probably gets more media attention than others. If one shaman in 10 said that one effect from ayahuasca was to see the future you can bet that one will get into the list of effects, and suddenly one nut-case is speaking for all the shamans.


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OfflineAldous
enthusiast
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Registered: 10/20/99
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Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2109133 - 11/15/03 03:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The FACT of the matter is the the least shamanic societies (like the USA) are enormously successful in survival.


Oh really? In my book, the least shamanic societies, like empires (Rome, the US of A,...), are bound not only to fall, but to cause the demise of humanity in the very end. On the other hand, the 'most shamanic' societies may not be the most 'advanced' or comfortable to live in, but at least they leave their biotope unharmed for themselves and others. On the long run, I'd say shamanic societies are the most sustainable.

Quote:

shamanistic cultures may have been greatly overshadowed by other cultures, but that doesn't mean shamanism has failed.
I guess NO SURVIVAL equals a smashing success in your mind.


Like someone pointed out before me, shamanism HAS survived, and is coming back quickly, precisely within very technological societies (coincidence?). I guess it's improbable it will prevail over what we know as 'Western' culture, but claiming it didn't survive is just a mistake.

And yet, Swami, you do have a point. I've been thinking along those lines as well. I used to idealise shamanism and shamans in a way. I used to see shamans as some kind of saints. To me, if you came in contact with the 'Overmind' (call it whatever you will) on a very regular base and for a long period of time, you were inevitably bound to become someone very enlightened. Until I traveled to Peru this summer, to finally meet real shamans...

Not that I was disappointed. Shamans are, it seems, very gentle people, very knowledgeable, they have many features I expected. But they also tend to be very manipulative, specially when it comes to women and sexual issues, and they definitely did not eliminate greed, some of them are even very good at it... I noticed these things myself, and they were confirmed to me by people who've worked with shamans for most of their lives, so I'm not just wildly generalising.
Like you stated, shamanism was used (and probably still is, in a way) to gain insights in how to efficiently wage wars against the enemy. While I, naive as I was, would have thought that tripping this often would make anyone give up any kind of violence forever...

The only plausible answer that was ever given to me about this question is that when it comes to shamanism, you have to distinguish between the tool itself (shamanism) and the people who use(d) it: premodern tribes. The assumption that tripping makes people better probably only fits our modern culture, where the individual can reflect on himself as such. In tribal cultures, there's no real individuality. Every member of a tribe is a part of his tribe in the first place, the tribe is good and the enemy is bad. If something goes wrong, the obvious answer is to look for outside causes and wage war against them if necessary. Shamans do not practice shamanism to become better people or to change their fellow tribesmen, but to gain advantages (health, good hunts, victory over enemies...) for themselves and their tribes. Spiritual evolution is a concept that fits better with our culture than theirs, but for which shamanism could be very usefull still...

So, I don't know about this explanation. To me, tripping very often should be influential enough to change cultures and worldviews... so I still don't know. Thanks for asking, but don't be misled by some of your phoney arguments... :wink:   


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2109270 - 11/15/03 04:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The FACT of the matter is the the least shamanic societies (like the USA) are enormously successful in survival.


You know Swami, THAT is a temporary illusion.

This least shamanic society has become so disconnected that they fail to realize something: Their methods of survival is not an example of equilibrium... an important tennet that many tribes of ancient times had a firm grip upon.

Their appetites are getting so large, that their demand is overwhelming the rest of the world.




They are also "successful" because of their "toys".. In a "battlebot" competition, the USA wins hands down...

But then, this dosen't seem like co-existance anymore... I think I saw something like this in elementary school a few times: AKA- Bullying.

Other nations are getting edgy... There's talk about NUK's... It's getting pretty crazy!




There HAVE been battles in ancient times before as well... Some real BIG ones too.. But never has it gotten to such a state that EVERYONE's safety was in question..




It is withing the relative present, that society in general has let go of the spiritual realm.. It is within the relative present that the most chaos potential is becomming apparent.






Ancient tribes felt their connection and had genuine respect for their surroundings... Maybe it is time to take a few steps back to our roots.



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2109450 - 11/15/03 05:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

For the FINAL time, I never once stated ANYTHING about morals or ethics or desirability; merely about survival value. Indigneous tribes relying on shamanic guides are being (or have been)wiped out or absorbed all around the planet, thus their survival mechanisms are not very utilitarian.

Most counter arguments (how does one argue with facts?) are emotional appeals to "shoulds" and "ought tos".

See my upcoming thread on Current Reality.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Why did Shamanism fail? [Re: Swami]
    #2109491 - 11/15/03 06:08 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

yeah guys stay on topic.. be less emotionally attached to all these weird ideals and shit, it helps you see through crap and build an argument against swami's simple question: why did shamanism fail to keep indigenous tribes alive?

It's such a simple topic, don't write huge irrelevant essays


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