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Offlinechemkid
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Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so
    #769137 - 07/22/02 11:48 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I have had it with all these people saying that homosexuality is genetic. This is so ridiculous. For the sake of having a condusive discussion...lets leave the religious reasons out of this one.

To be successful (biologically speaking) a male needs to copulate with a female to procreate. It would make no sense to have any sort of evolution or genetic mutation to lead to a homosexual predisposition. Homosexuality is a non-viable method of biological success. (It's important that you understand what I mean by biologically successful. I'm am making no judgements about success in life or happiness, simply in biological terms....so don't send hate PM's)

The human genome has finally been mapped (except for the exons) and there is no proof anywhere of homosexuality. It is indeed a choice. (Again lets leave morality out of this). True enough, not every single gene and it's function are known so I guess that does give a glimmer of hope for homosexuals to be vindicated and be able to say "see I told you I was born this way". This is a farce. If you want to be gay...cool....say it loud and be proud...if that's your thing. Why do most gay people seem to need some validation from genetics?


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


Edited by chemkid (07/22/02 11:49 PM)


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #769159 - 07/23/02 12:00 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

One thing, I don't think homosexuality is determined by genetics! But...

>would make no sense to have any sort of evolution or genetic mutation to lead to a homosexual predisposition.
There have been tests showing that homosexuality occurs in rats (YES RATS) that live in over crowded habitats... Perhaps it's not genetics (which I don't think it is) I beleive (as the sceintists argued) that it's about how the brain works, and that the over crowded habitat somehow incouraged the rats to be more inclinded to be homosexual.

>The human genome has finally been mapped (except for the exons) and there is no proof anywhere of homosexuality.
I think this is unfair to say becuase just becuase it's finally been mapped, as you say, the workings of the code aren't fully understood.

>"thee I told you I wath born thith way".
I think they were gay all along, not knowing what it ment, and looking back on there childhood and seeing they were gay, just assumed they were gay since birth...

anyway, you're probably not going to convince many people with this but it's a good arguement.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #769167 - 07/23/02 12:11 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Good rebuttle.......As for your rat arguement, you basically reinforced my stance. The rats made a choice (if you can believe that rats make concious decisions) nonetheless it wasn't a genetic force at work. The same argument works with humans as well. Look at prison populations. Otherwise hetero males are forced into an environment where the only choice is to be homosexual. Some make that choice.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #769170 - 07/23/02 12:17 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I think that it would be easy to prove your arguement by cloning a gay human.... after all it's the same genetics... When he grows up straight, it will be harder for others to argue that being gay is built into your genetic code, instead of a personal life choice.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #769187 - 07/23/02 12:29 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Actually it's not exactly the same genetics. Remember when they cloned the sheep "Dolly"? Technically speaking it wasn't a perfect clone. When a clone is made they take the nucleus of a cell and transplant it into a viable egg. All the genes are the same because the nucleus contains all the same genes but......all the mitochondrial DNA comes from the mother (or egg). So if I wanted to clone you "exactly to the Tee" I would have to use a nucleus from one of your cells and use an egg from YOUR mother as to ensure the same mitochondrial DNA.

Anyway, if we did that I think your idea, in theory, is a brilliant idea...it truely would solve the mystery. (Now for the ethics of cloning a human.....again, lets stay away from that).


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


Edited by chemkid (07/23/02 12:30 AM)


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InvisibleWhite_Widow
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Registered: 07/04/02
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: chemkid]
    #769196 - 07/23/02 12:37 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think homosexuality has got to do with genetics, but sure it has to do with chemical, synapsis (beg your pardon in advance for my poor English, but it?'s not my mother language) and psycology.

Being gay is not harder or easier than being straight or bisex...
It's just like some people loving chocolate ice-cream and some other prefering vanilla...

I am gay myself, but I've been with girls (and a couple of long term commitment too) and I had to admit I preferred sex with a man... I don't care of all the analysis that goes along with this (I've been eating my guts out for too long before I could accept it), but I don't think there's only ONE kind of homosexuality, like there is not ONE kind of heterosexuality and so on.

Sometimes it's a choice, some other times it's a coincidence (if you can call it like that).

As far as homosexuality and sex in animals...animals being captive usually show signs of homosexual behaviour, and it was thought it was because of the restrictions of their habitat. But on a closer study in the wild it's been found out that many animals use sexual intercourses as a game and as externation of supremacy and control (especially amongst the apes).

I've observed homosexuality amongst snakes too, birds, cats and dogs: I've seen transpecies copulations too (a male dog mounting a male cat!!!).

We've had moral and religious stances to tell "don't do that", but that's been done for too many other things to simply consider homosexuality!
Look at what the ancient Greek did: they married at a certain age and had sons (that mothers looked after), while they "tought" the secrets of sex and love to other young guys as they had been tought earlier.

Society needs reproduction to keep up... but we have something more in ourselves than simply "be born-spread your semen-die"...

Maybe I lost myself writing all this... sorry for the confusion...


--------------------
"Love is the law; love under will..."


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: White_Widow]
    #769227 - 07/23/02 12:58 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Your english is great! And you shot your point across remarkably well, actually. WIth all these testimonials with anti-geneticaly determined homosexuality sentiments, the real question would be...
Who actually believes in it anyway?


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InvisibleWhite_Widow
Lost fairy

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #769240 - 07/23/02 01:07 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

LOL

Ask people working for Insurance Companies if they would care of any genetically caused deseas and what they would do if they could only know in advance...

It's all about POWER, my friend, and power has been assumed to be black and sticky as oil, yellow as gold in the past, green as bucks since the II WW, and... what would be the colour today?


--------------------
"Love is the law; love under will..."


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: White_Widow]
    #769252 - 07/23/02 01:15 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The blinding white light that comes from the type of bombs that form mushroom clouds, that would probably be the new power. (if completly unrelated)


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OfflineAcursedRedDragon
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: White_Widow]
    #769403 - 07/23/02 04:14 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

"I've observed homosexuality amongst snakes too, birds, cats and dogs: I've seen transpecies copulations too (a male dog mounting a male cat!!!)."

Yeah, dogs try and fuck anything, i've seen them humping pickachu dolls.


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OfflineShroomyMcPot
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #769468 - 07/23/02 05:29 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I think being gay just has to do with any aspect of your personality. You develop it throughout your life. Like if your a happy go-lucky person diffrent events in your life have made you that way. Maybe its the same way with gay people. Im not saying that if your gay you had your uncle making you suck his pepe when you were 6 but maybe it just has to do with the tv you watched or the conversations you listened to or all of everything combined together.



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InvisibleWhite_Widow
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: ShroomyMcPot]
    #769513 - 07/23/02 05:58 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I can tell you what happened to me: I was on a two years long relationship with the girl I thought I loved, but evidently she didn't love me as much... because I felt her so far away from me... I found out that my days were best lived with my he-friend (straight) and suddenly I thought of him as a sexual companion...
I never had sex with him... but I like experimenting and I thought I would have found out what was wrong in being sexually atracted by my same sex... And I did it.
I've had other girls than (so you might consider me a bisex) but I've been with my boyfriend for 6 years now (much longer than many straight couples) and I've never had what people consider to be a "gay lifestyle": I'm not bitching around, I don't have a chiuaua, my voice is deeper than many str8 guy I know, I've never being attracted from kinky outfits etc.

Being a "person" is not tied to categories... and my sexuality is just a part of it.
I have my creed, and that's got nothing to do with the Bible. Many catholics have never read the Bible, but almost everyone has read the Gospels... Find me where it's said not to love people of your same sex... Being a christian has little to do with the Bible (except for the ten laws... but those are meant as guidelines.

I'm out with all my friends and with my collegues as well. I live in Italy (one of the moronest countries around: don't forget the Vatican is on our land...) but I've never had problems...

As I've read somewhere else in here "how you say things is much more important that what you say". And being gay doesn't mean you jump on any male moving around you... or any Pikachu...


--------------------
"Love is the law; love under will..."


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #769566 - 07/23/02 06:27 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Here is what we do know for sure. There is a very wide range of testesterone in males, from the heavy-bearded, aggressive, naturally thick-muscled male, to the baby-faced man with a slender body, little facial hair and high voice.

We also know that hermaphroditic humans exist (people with both male & female sex organs).

Point being that hormones and genetics certainly play some part in our sexual drive and outlook on the world. You may extrapolate from there.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (07/23/02 09:16 AM)


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Invisiblecruiser
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Swami]
    #769604 - 07/23/02 06:50 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe not DNA per se, but i think hormones do play a role. Did any of you see that show on TLC last night about how the hormones we are exposed to in the womb affects how we turn out. It was cool because they showed how guys hands have the ring finger longer than the index finger, and womens hands have the index finger longer than the ring finger. If you're exposed to high levels of tesotsterone and low levels of estrogen in the womb, your ring finger is longer than your index finger, and vice versa. My sister is a dyke and built like a guy too, with broad shoulders and narrow hips, so I ran over to look and her hands and her ring fingers are longer than her index fingers. So yeah I believe that theory.

Besides, you notice how lots of gay dudes are almost pretty like girls, and lots of dykes look real rough like dudes, sometimes I mistake them for dudes! Yeah definitely some kind of association with hormones I think.


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Swami]
    #769643 - 07/23/02 07:30 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Although science has not found much of a hereditary component to homosexuality, there are a few empirical studies, the details of which I am not sure, that implicate hormone levels in the etiology of homosexuality. They suggest that abnormal hormone levels experienced during the early formative stages of the brain can set the stage for later homosexual orientation (whether this is due to genetics or environment is really still up in the air). This may account for the feeling that many homosexuals have that it is genetic, or is at least out of their control- they are physiologically predisposed, although it may not be hereditary.



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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Offline11polakie11
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Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: chemkid]
    #769709 - 07/23/02 08:20 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Hi there,
i am a queer (gay if you want a label) man, and I am in a university course on human sexuality. Cultures around the world, specificially those with a highly judeo-christian history, are constantly preoccupied with explaining transgendered sexualites. Is it because of DNA? Is it a chemical "imbalance" or "disorder" ? Is it random? Is it the environment? Is it a choice?

WEll...none of it fucking matters..people are people, there's no black and white, cut and dry all or nothing when it comes to people..the largest misconception among HUMANS is that we all fit into certain categories on all levels....when really we are just very lazy children who don't care to get to know how different other people are...

also, as a gay man I don't search for a genetic defense to my being gay, not do I see it as any kind of dissaproval of who I am...the body and the self are not the same thing and we people have trouble realizing that..the body is not the person..


adam


--------------------
-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_


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InvisibleWhite_Widow
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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: 11polakie11]
    #769770 - 07/23/02 08:55 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Hi 11,
it seems like we are the only two gay men on here LOL
We're not enough to have our "Gayly shrooming" section on the forum.

Do you think it's got something to do with our "no black no white, but shades of gray" thinking?

I agree with every single word you said and all I can add is: "Genetic? And what strain, please?".

I think that shrooming should have tought many other things than simply watching the world in technicolor... Relativity is still a concept in some cases (and in some casings too LOL).


--------------------
"Love is the law; love under will..."


Edited by White_Widow (07/23/02 09:03 AM)


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #769812 - 07/23/02 09:17 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

"It would make no sense to have any sort of evolution or genetic mutation to lead to a homosexual predisposition."
------
What if homosexuality is nature's way of putting the brakes on rampant procreation?
Personally I feel there is both a genetic component and a psychological one.
My guess would be that the genetic component is more often the deciding factor.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: 11polakie11]
    #769852 - 07/23/02 09:41 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Please take no offense, but I will explain why I have a difficult time with gays in general. (FYI I am liberal and don't believe in any type of discrimination.)

Yes, I know that gays are not the same as pedophiles, but between the age of 12 and 17, much older men inappropriately attempted to seduce me on about 8 occassions. I have been sexually assaulted 3 times as an adult (had my ass and or genitals grabbed).

I used to have single gay male friends and even knowing that I was straight, tried to take advantage of our friendship by pushing the limits. I no longer keep any gay friends (that I know of).

I lived in near SF for many years. Most of the gays that I knew were TOTALLY OBSESSED with sex. That was all they talked about and seemed their entire focus. This borders on pathogenic. Most all adorned their wall with pornographic art and phallic symbols.

I remember when the bathhouses in SF were shut down to prevent the spread of AIDs and the Gay Groups screamed about constitutional rights even though the state was trying to save lives. When AIDS knowledge became generrally known as to cause and prevention, most gays that I knew were as promiscuous and as unsafe as ever, yet blamed government research for NOT protecting them and instantly coming up with a vaccine.

There are behavior patterns that many homosexuals adhere to that would be equally unacceptable by society-at-large if they were hetero.

This post is NOT a bash, but a little personal history that has formed how I view the issue.

Will I fight for your rights? Yes. Will I come to your party? No.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: Swami]
    #769972 - 07/23/02 10:38 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

IN MY LIFE, I've only met 2 gay guys who WEREN'T obsessed with sex.
(They were in a couple of bio classes with me in college)
One had an undergrad degree in Mathematics and was going back to school to be a veterenarian. The other was going to school to be a microbiologist. These guys were damn cool. They were both soft spoken and pretty feminine in their mannerisms. I actually remember this particular conversation with the pre-vet... he was upset that he couldn't find a lifemate. All the guys he was meeting (at clubs and whatnot) were pretty much only interested in sex.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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