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Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so
    #769137 -

I have had it with all these people saying that homosexuality is genetic. This is so ridiculous. For the sake of having a condusive discussion...lets leave the religious reasons out of this one.

To be successful (biologically speaking) a male needs to copulate with a female to procreate. It would make no sense to have any sort of evolution or genetic mutation to lead to a homosexual predisposition. Homosexuality is a non-viable method of biological success. (It's important that you understand what I mean by biologically successful. I'm am making no judgements about success in life or happiness, simply in biological terms....so don't send hate PM's)

The human genome has finally been mapped (except for the exons) and there is no proof anywhere of homosexuality. It is indeed a choice. (Again lets leave morality out of this). True enough, not every single gene and it's function are known so I guess that does give a glimmer of hope for homosexuals to be vindicated and be able to say "see I told you I was born this way". This is a farce. If you want to be gay...cool....say it loud and be proud...if that's your thing. Why do most gay people seem to need some validation from genetics?


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

Edited by chemkid (07/22/02 09:49 PM)

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #769159 -

One thing, I don't think homosexuality is determined by genetics! But...

>would make no sense to have any sort of evolution or genetic mutation to lead to a homosexual predisposition.
There have been tests showing that homosexuality occurs in rats (YES RATS) that live in over crowded habitats... Perhaps it's not genetics (which I don't think it is) I beleive (as the sceintists argued) that it's about how the brain works, and that the over crowded habitat somehow incouraged the rats to be more inclinded to be homosexual.

>The human genome has finally been mapped (except for the exons) and there is no proof anywhere of homosexuality.
I think this is unfair to say becuase just becuase it's finally been mapped, as you say, the workings of the code aren't fully understood.

>"thee I told you I wath born thith way".
I think they were gay all along, not knowing what it ment, and looking back on there childhood and seeing they were gay, just assumed they were gay since birth...

anyway, you're probably not going to convince many people with this but it's a good arguement.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #769167 -

Good rebuttle.......As for your rat arguement, you basically reinforced my stance. The rats made a choice (if you can believe that rats make concious decisions) nonetheless it wasn't a genetic force at work. The same argument works with humans as well. Look at prison populations. Otherwise hetero males are forced into an environment where the only choice is to be homosexual. Some make that choice.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #769170 -

I think that it would be easy to prove your arguement by cloning a gay human.... after all it's the same genetics... When he grows up straight, it will be harder for others to argue that being gay is built into your genetic code, instead of a personal life choice.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #769187 -

Actually it's not exactly the same genetics. Remember when they cloned the sheep "Dolly"? Technically speaking it wasn't a perfect clone. When a clone is made they take the nucleus of a cell and transplant it into a viable egg. All the genes are the same because the nucleus contains all the same genes but......all the mitochondrial DNA comes from the mother (or egg). So if I wanted to clone you "exactly to the Tee" I would have to use a nucleus from one of your cells and use an egg from YOUR mother as to ensure the same mitochondrial DNA.

Anyway, if we did that I think your idea, in theory, is a brilliant idea...it truely would solve the mystery. (Now for the ethics of cloning a human.....again, lets stay away from that).


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

Edited by chemkid (07/22/02 10:30 PM)

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: chemkid]
    #769196 -

I don't think homosexuality has got to do with genetics, but sure it has to do with chemical, synapsis (beg your pardon in advance for my poor English, but it?'s not my mother language) and psycology.

Being gay is not harder or easier than being straight or bisex...
It's just like some people loving chocolate ice-cream and some other prefering vanilla...

I am gay myself, but I've been with girls (and a couple of long term commitment too) and I had to admit I preferred sex with a man... I don't care of all the analysis that goes along with this (I've been eating my guts out for too long before I could accept it), but I don't think there's only ONE kind of homosexuality, like there is not ONE kind of heterosexuality and so on.

Sometimes it's a choice, some other times it's a coincidence (if you can call it like that).

As far as homosexuality and sex in animals...animals being captive usually show signs of homosexual behaviour, and it was thought it was because of the restrictions of their habitat. But on a closer study in the wild it's been found out that many animals use sexual intercourses as a game and as externation of supremacy and control (especially amongst the apes).

I've observed homosexuality amongst snakes too, birds, cats and dogs: I've seen transpecies copulations too (a male dog mounting a male cat!!!).

We've had moral and religious stances to tell "don't do that", but that's been done for too many other things to simply consider homosexuality!
Look at what the ancient Greek did: they married at a certain age and had sons (that mothers looked after), while they "tought" the secrets of sex and love to other young guys as they had been tought earlier.

Society needs reproduction to keep up... but we have something more in ourselves than simply "be born-spread your semen-die"...

Maybe I lost myself writing all this... sorry for the confusion...


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"Love is the law; love under will..."

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: White_Widow]
    #769227 -

Your english is great! And you shot your point across remarkably well, actually. WIth all these testimonials with anti-geneticaly determined homosexuality sentiments, the real question would be...
Who actually believes in it anyway?

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #769240 -

LOL

Ask people working for Insurance Companies if they would care of any genetically caused deseas and what they would do if they could only know in advance...

It's all about POWER, my friend, and power has been assumed to be black and sticky as oil, yellow as gold in the past, green as bucks since the II WW, and... what would be the colour today?


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"Love is the law; love under will..."

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: White_Widow]
    #769252 -

The blinding white light that comes from the type of bombs that form mushroom clouds, that would probably be the new power. (if completly unrelated)

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: White_Widow]
    #769403 -

"I've observed homosexuality amongst snakes too, birds, cats and dogs: I've seen transpecies copulations too (a male dog mounting a male cat!!!)."

Yeah, dogs try and fuck anything, i've seen them humping pickachu dolls.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #769468 -

I think being gay just has to do with any aspect of your personality. You develop it throughout your life. Like if your a happy go-lucky person diffrent events in your life have made you that way. Maybe its the same way with gay people. Im not saying that if your gay you had your uncle making you suck his pepe when you were 6 but maybe it just has to do with the tv you watched or the conversations you listened to or all of everything combined together.


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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: ShroomyMcPot]
    #769513 -

I can tell you what happened to me: I was on a two years long relationship with the girl I thought I loved, but evidently she didn't love me as much... because I felt her so far away from me... I found out that my days were best lived with my he-friend (straight) and suddenly I thought of him as a sexual companion...
I never had sex with him... but I like experimenting and I thought I would have found out what was wrong in being sexually atracted by my same sex... And I did it.
I've had other girls than (so you might consider me a bisex) but I've been with my boyfriend for 6 years now (much longer than many straight couples) and I've never had what people consider to be a "gay lifestyle": I'm not bitching around, I don't have a chiuaua, my voice is deeper than many str8 guy I know, I've never being attracted from kinky outfits etc.

Being a "person" is not tied to categories... and my sexuality is just a part of it.
I have my creed, and that's got nothing to do with the Bible. Many catholics have never read the Bible, but almost everyone has read the Gospels... Find me where it's said not to love people of your same sex... Being a christian has little to do with the Bible (except for the ten laws... but those are meant as guidelines.

I'm out with all my friends and with my collegues as well. I live in Italy (one of the moronest countries around: don't forget the Vatican is on our land...) but I've never had problems...

As I've read somewhere else in here "how you say things is much more important that what you say". And being gay doesn't mean you jump on any male moving around you... or any Pikachu...


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"Love is the law; love under will..."

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #769566 -

Here is what we do know for sure. There is a very wide range of testesterone in males, from the heavy-bearded, aggressive, naturally thick-muscled male, to the baby-faced man with a slender body, little facial hair and high voice.

We also know that hermaphroditic humans exist (people with both male & female sex organs).

Point being that hormones and genetics certainly play some part in our sexual drive and outlook on the world. You may extrapolate from there.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (07/23/02 07:16 AM)

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Swami]
    #769604 -

Maybe not DNA per se, but i think hormones do play a role. Did any of you see that show on TLC last night about how the hormones we are exposed to in the womb affects how we turn out. It was cool because they showed how guys hands have the ring finger longer than the index finger, and womens hands have the index finger longer than the ring finger. If you're exposed to high levels of tesotsterone and low levels of estrogen in the womb, your ring finger is longer than your index finger, and vice versa. My sister is a dyke and built like a guy too, with broad shoulders and narrow hips, so I ran over to look and her hands and her ring fingers are longer than her index fingers. So yeah I believe that theory.

Besides, you notice how lots of gay dudes are almost pretty like girls, and lots of dykes look real rough like dudes, sometimes I mistake them for dudes! Yeah definitely some kind of association with hormones I think.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Swami]
    #769643 -

Although science has not found much of a hereditary component to homosexuality, there are a few empirical studies, the details of which I am not sure, that implicate hormone levels in the etiology of homosexuality. They suggest that abnormal hormone levels experienced during the early formative stages of the brain can set the stage for later homosexual orientation (whether this is due to genetics or environment is really still up in the air). This may account for the feeling that many homosexuals have that it is genetic, or is at least out of their control- they are physiologically predisposed, although it may not be hereditary.



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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: chemkid]
    #769709 -

Hi there,
i am a queer (gay if you want a label) man, and I am in a university course on human sexuality. Cultures around the world, specificially those with a highly judeo-christian history, are constantly preoccupied with explaining transgendered sexualites. Is it because of DNA? Is it a chemical "imbalance" or "disorder" ? Is it random? Is it the environment? Is it a choice?

WEll...none of it fucking matters..people are people, there's no black and white, cut and dry all or nothing when it comes to people..the largest misconception among HUMANS is that we all fit into certain categories on all levels....when really we are just very lazy children who don't care to get to know how different other people are...

also, as a gay man I don't search for a genetic defense to my being gay, not do I see it as any kind of dissaproval of who I am...the body and the self are not the same thing and we people have trouble realizing that..the body is not the person..


adam


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-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: 11polakie11]
    #769770 -

Hi 11,
it seems like we are the only two gay men on here LOL
We're not enough to have our "Gayly shrooming" section on the forum.

Do you think it's got something to do with our "no black no white, but shades of gray" thinking?

I agree with every single word you said and all I can add is: "Genetic? And what strain, please?".

I think that shrooming should have tought many other things than simply watching the world in technicolor... Relativity is still a concept in some cases (and in some casings too LOL).


--------------------
"Love is the law; love under will..."

Edited by White_Widow (07/23/02 07:03 AM)

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #769812 -

"It would make no sense to have any sort of evolution or genetic mutation to lead to a homosexual predisposition."
------
What if homosexuality is nature's way of putting the brakes on rampant procreation?
Personally I feel there is both a genetic component and a psychological one.
My guess would be that the genetic component is more often the deciding factor.


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: 11polakie11]
    #769852 -

Please take no offense, but I will explain why I have a difficult time with gays in general. (FYI I am liberal and don't believe in any type of discrimination.)

Yes, I know that gays are not the same as pedophiles, but between the age of 12 and 17, much older men inappropriately attempted to seduce me on about 8 occassions. I have been sexually assaulted 3 times as an adult (had my ass and or genitals grabbed).

I used to have single gay male friends and even knowing that I was straight, tried to take advantage of our friendship by pushing the limits. I no longer keep any gay friends (that I know of).

I lived in near SF for many years. Most of the gays that I knew were TOTALLY OBSESSED with sex. That was all they talked about and seemed their entire focus. This borders on pathogenic. Most all adorned their wall with pornographic art and phallic symbols.

I remember when the bathhouses in SF were shut down to prevent the spread of AIDs and the Gay Groups screamed about constitutional rights even though the state was trying to save lives. When AIDS knowledge became generrally known as to cause and prevention, most gays that I knew were as promiscuous and as unsafe as ever, yet blamed government research for NOT protecting them and instantly coming up with a vaccine.

There are behavior patterns that many homosexuals adhere to that would be equally unacceptable by society-at-large if they were hetero.

This post is NOT a bash, but a little personal history that has formed how I view the issue.

Will I fight for your rights? Yes. Will I come to your party? No.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: Swami]
    #769972 -

IN MY LIFE, I've only met 2 gay guys who WEREN'T obsessed with sex.
(They were in a couple of bio classes with me in college)
One had an undergrad degree in Mathematics and was going back to school to be a veterenarian. The other was going to school to be a microbiologist. These guys were damn cool. They were both soft spoken and pretty feminine in their mannerisms. I actually remember this particular conversation with the pre-vet... he was upset that he couldn't find a lifemate. All the guys he was meeting (at clubs and whatnot) were pretty much only interested in sex.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: Swami]
    #770005 -

Swami, I'm sorry that you've had such negative experiences with gay people. I, too, had experiences similar to yours when I was around that age and even continue to have them now.

All I can say is that it's not fair to judge a group of people as a whole on the experiences that you've had with only some members of that group.

You say you do not discriminate, yet you say you no longer keep any gay friends. Does this mean that if you met a gay person, you would not be his friend even if he was the type of person you would be friends with if he were not gay?

Also, I think the SF area is an exception to "normal" gay culture... And besides, I know tons of people who are TOTALLY OBSESSED with sex; and they are all heterosexual! I've never met a gay person where I live who is even close to the border-line pathogenic people you spoke of. I have, however, met many straight people who could be seen as pathogenic in their obsessions with sex.

Have you ever heard of the show called "The Real World" on MTV? It's basically a reality show where they put 7 people in a house together and tape their lives. On each season, they usually have at least one gay person; and from watching that show I can definitely say that all gay people are NOT like what you described.

Also, have you ever seen the movie called "Lifetime Companion"? It deals with the time period in SF that you talked about and tells a story of a group of gay males who were affected by the newly discovered AIDS virus. It does a good job showing both sides of the story...

Anyway... It is good, at least, that you say you will fight for gay rights. Still, you cannot say you do not discriminate if you say you will not go to a gay party. Not ALL gay people are like the ones you have had experiences with, and many straight people are just as bad as the gay people you spoke of.


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Namaste.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Jellric]
    #770242 -

That is an impossibility. Evolution and genetics always favors survival and procreation. The "brakes" that you talk about come in the form of sickness, disease, starvation, etc. from over population.

This post was not meant to judge the right or wrong with being gay. It was meant to point out the fact that genetics is not involved and to ask gay people why genetic validation is so important to most. If you are gay then fine, no judgement here. Genetics shouldn't be your reason for being homosexual. This is a preposterous notion.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #770375 -

...ask gay people why genetic validation is so important to most.

What gays really want by saying this is to convey to other people that their choice of sexual orientation is not the result of a conscious decision - it is something they just feel. In other words, it is determined by forces that are out of their control just as is heterosexual?s. This is the underlying meaning behind the statement ?it?s genetic.?

If I had a preference for heavy metal and society kept telling me that I need to snap out of it and start liking rap, I would also want to somehow get the message across that it?s not that simple! I didn?t deliberate over this and then decide I?ll have a preference for heavy metal- for some reason, this is what I like!

Although evidence does not support the idea that sexual orientation is hereditary, I think the more important underlying message is that their sexual orientation is really out of their control. I too wish people would appreciate this simple fact.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #770382 -

That is an impossibility

Evolution is a theory. We are nowhere near understanding completely how it works. Do you claim to know the mind of the Mother?


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Namaste.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #770441 -

Homosexuality is a choice, you are not born into it.
And on a side note, it is not wrong to be a homosexual. It is simply a sexual orientation.


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The Bodhisattva Vow

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Tripalistic_One]
    #770510 -

You seem pretty firm in this belief. May I ask what leads you to think this? And what do you mean by choice?


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Tripalistic_One]
    #770572 -

Hmm, are you saying that I choose to be attracted to women and gay men choose to be attracted to other men?

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #770582 -

when asked the question to his holiness the Dali Llama regarding homosexuality, he responded..." some people were soldiers in their past lives, and some were peasants...a man today could have been a female in his past life and the same goes with women....whether or not they choose to carry these past lives on over onto the present is solely up to the spirit...so some gays may have been a female in their past life, thus explaining the feminity presence they display, and they same gos for Butch Dykes.....

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: buttonion]
    #770745 -

buttonion: Well, if as you said, people say it's genetic simply to convey it's beyond their control, even though they may know it is not genetic.........this seems far fetched. Plus you are not giving gay people enough credit. You are implying that gay people will use a false argument to convey an idea (homosexualtiy is not a choice) simply to make people understand. Gay people have never lead easy lives and I don't suspect they would start now by taking the "easy" but false argument. I am sure that the gay people that claim it is genetic....full heartedly believe that it is indeed genetic.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: 11polakie11]
    #770751 -

Polakie: You have thus far given the best reasoning I have heard. I agree that for the most part it doesn't matter whether it is a choice or hormonal or whatever. I just don't like to see gay people putting wrong information out there when it is completely untrue.

I am glad that you don't seek a genetic defense of who you are and are happy in just being yourself.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: buttonion]
    #770776 -

This simple question you asked me is going to open a can of worms but if you can handle intelligent discussion then so can I :-)

By choice I mean that the personality of the individual, whether consious or subconciously, makes a choice to follow that lifestyle. I believe that homosexuality is (for lack of a better word) a sickness. I compare it to other deviant lifestyles like pedophilia, serial killing, raping of women etc. (I am not referring to genetic mental disorder like alzheimers etc.) No one would agree that there is a genetic predisposition toward raping women and pediophilia. I assure you though that if you question these people they truely feel as if they are born with those desires and impulses. Should these people be looked upon in a favorable light because there is "nothing they can do to change"? SO........we try to reform these people and convince them that they are leading a deviant lifestyle. Because the gay lifestyle doesn't prey upon innocent people then they say that it is a valid choice and is genetic. Not true, it is a biologically unviable lifestyle and is a lifestyle that needs to try to be changed by these individuals. The lack of"victims" as with rapists and what not doesn't preclude homosexuality from being a "sickness".


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

Edited by chemkid (07/23/02 02:02 PM)

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #770783 -

It seems everybody believes what they want to about homosexuality, so I am just going to put what I've learned from my biology and psychology classes. Homosexuality is not genetic in the sense that it is an inherited trait. There are cases where identical twins have had different sexual orientations. This leans towards a non-biological reason. However, physical differences can be shown between gay and straight people's brains. It is believed to have to do with differing levels of hormones. Whether this change is the cause or effect is unknown, but this leans towards some type of biological reason. My psych professor (who happens to be gay) explained that it is generally accepted as both biological and situational. So, take that as you will. But, I have to ask, why does it matter to anyone other than someone who is very religious?


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I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. - Frank Sinatra

Edited by Killa_J (07/23/02 02:03 PM)

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Killa_J]
    #770792 -

because truth should always be sought. It is important.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #771033 -

All I can say is that it's not fair to judge a group of people as a whole on the experiences that you've had with only some members of that group.

Huh? Fair? Judgement? How is associating with people that do NOT make me feel uncomfortable being unfair to anyone? I do and say nothing offensive.

If I got too close to a single gay male, they always seemed to take it as an invitation, therefore I don't get close. Oftentimes total gay strangers took my friendliness as a come-on. I had WAY too many negative experiences.

If you got robbed several times in the same neighborhood, you would likely stop going there.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: Swami]
    #771090 -

I don't know if this has been brought up (there is alot of reading in this post), but if someone claims they are born with something it doesn't have to be a genetic trait. The womb is an environment that influences developement just like or more so than any other at any stage in life. I don't think homosexuality is always genetic, but i don't think it is always a choice either.

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: cheesenoonions]
    #771097 -

True enough. But the part that IS a choice is to respect the wishes of another. That was what put me off. Not the homosexuality, but the violation of a trust or the lack of respect. When I said "No!" for the third time or started to get quite angry and violent, then there was ALWAYS the lame, "I couldn't help myself." which is bullshit.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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lol...TrUmAs [Re: TrUmAs]
    #771104 -

"so some gays may have been a female in their past life, thus explaining the feminity presence they display...and the same goes for butch dykes"

That Dali Lama - wise and funny...who'd of thunk?


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #771138 -

i have to agree with the case that you make. i'm probably not as educated as you on the scientific evidence of this matter. however, some of the behavior displayed by certain members of the gay community causes me to question their belief that their sexuality is genetic. for instance, anne heche, announced to everyone she was gay and was dating ellen. but then mere months later she had dumped ellen and was back to dating men. how could behavior like that be possible if you believe that homosexuality is genetic and not a choice. also, it seems like there a good number of middle aged gay men out there that at one time in their life had been married. now they are leading a gay lifestyle. most of them will proclaim that they just suddenly came to the realization that they were gay. how could that be possible if they were born gay. plus alot of them have kids. if someone were born gay then you would think that they would have a real tough time being turned on by someone who is of the opposite sex.

my comments are not ment to offend, just to point out some things that bother me when people claim that homosexuality is something you are born into.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: htownkid28]
    #771166 -

i admit anne heche is probably an unfair example of this but i just wanted to use somebody well known to make my point.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #771189 -

By choice I mean that the personality of the individual, whether consious or subconciously, makes a choice to follow that lifestyle. I believe that homosexuality is (for lack of a better word) a sickness.

OK, so there is a choice to follow the lifestyle rather than remain in the closet? but what about to feel attracted to the same sex? Not many would agree that there is with the latter and neither do I.


I compare it to other deviant lifestyles like pedophilia, serial killing, raping of women etc. (I am not referring to genetic mental disorder like alzheimers etc.)

Including homosexuality amongst these other deviant behaviors (normatively speaking) suggests that it also warrants the condemnation that a killer or rapist does. Why not some more benign deviant behaviors like a preference for ?Color Me Badd? or anchovies on pizza? Is normative deviancy your sole criteria for sickness? Or does something make homsexuality as morally reprehensible as your other examples?


No one would agree that there is a genetic predisposition toward raping women and pediophilia. I assure you though that if you question these people they truely feel as if they are born with those desires and impulses.

This is what I was saying in my last post. By saying that their orientation is genetic, I don?t think some homosexuals are consciously trying to deceive others or hanging by the threads of weak, unsubstantiated argument. I think a lot of people do not make the distinction between genetic and biological (although there is a distinction of course). Someone with a homosexual orientation at least knows that he did not choose that this would be his orientation, it was out of his control.


Should these people be looked upon in a favorable light because there is "nothing they can do to change"?

No, we don?t have to worship them, just treat them like other people.


SO........we try to reform these people and convince them that they are leading a deviant lifestyle. Because the gay lifestyle doesn't prey upon innocent people then they say that it is a valid choice and is genetic. Not true, it is a biologically unviable lifestyle and is a lifestyle that needs to try to be changed by these individuals. The lack of"victims" as with rapists and what not doesn't preclude homosexuality from being a "sickness".

All right.

??it is biologically unviable?- If by this you mean that it reduces the chances for the individual to propagate his own genetic material, then yes, it is biologically unviable.

?It needs to be changed by these individuals?- Why? Just because it is normatively deviant? Because it reduces the chances for gene propagation? Both? Are we obligated to homogenize all of behavior and/or ensure that everyone must propogate their own genes? Why must it be changed by these individuals?


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: Swami]
    #771230 -

sorry, I wasn't replying to your pos specifically, Swami, just adding my two cents. I agree, your situation sucks and I don't blame you for what you do now because of past events. You're only human!

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #771500 -

"That is an impossibility. Evolution and genetics always favors survival and procreation. The "brakes" that you talk about come in the form of sickness, disease, starvation, etc. from over population."
---------
Yes, evolution and genetics always favors survival and procreation.
As a species!
The brakes come in many forms. I have heard that sperm counts are falling worldwide.
Too much procreation is not helpful to the ecosystem as you've admitted.
Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.

As for those who say it is a choice, do you remember when you chose to be heterosexual?


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #771570 -

What's a "subconscious choice"?

Chemkid, you don't realize your own homophobia, or do you? From quotes in lisp, to relating homosexuality to RAPE! and CHILD MOLESTATION!! Wow.

And speaking for single straight men everywhere, I hope and pray that all the women out there will show more patience with us sex-minded straight men than Swami has shown with sex-minded gay men. Please come to my party! I'll behave...

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #771729 -

no its not always a choice, I have had gay/lesbian friends who all told me otherwise, they had been attracted to the same sex since childhood. and its not a "mutation" either, it is perfectly natural for a small percentage of the population to be same sex oriented. I understand why you think such a trait would not get passed on with evolution (with the straight people the only ones reproducing) but remember 30+ years ago to be an openly gay person was definitely taboo, most people were in the closet and tried to live "straight" lives, dont forget a little of fire and brimstone religion back then.. I dont know how much research has been done on the subject of gay genetic differences but my opinion is that the determining factor would occur in brain and/or hormonal developments before birth, then it would become apparent to them during later childhood whether they were straight/gay.


--------------------
...
overgrow

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: buttonion]
    #771785 -

Buttion: I never said that being homosexual was morally reprehensible. Nor did I equate it as the same thing as pedophilia etc. I was merely showing how different lifestyles all claim to be genetic when indeed they are not.

As for my whole biologically unviable argument.....again I am not making any judgements as to what is right or wrong for a person. What is moral or immoral. I am speaking strictly from a scientific point of view. That is why I said in the beginning of the post "lets leave religion out of it". Everyone in this discussion is way off topic. I am simply trying to point out that homosexuality is not genetic because evolution doesn't allow for it. If someone wants to be gay then by all means be gay. No gay man ever tried to hurt me so I try to hurt no gay man. This isn't a judgement thread. As for why that lifestyle must be changed: It is obviously not what nature, God, evolution (whatever you dogma be) had intended. This part is so plainly obvious that it should spark some curious thoughts into a gay person's mind: why am I lke this? It isn't genetic so what else could it be? Again.....I am not saying you shouldn't be gay "LETS BE CLEAR ON THIS". In some people's minds I lead a deviant lifestyle because of the drugs I do. I don't claim a genetic predisposition to it however.

Someone else asked when did I choose to be hetero.? You don't choose to be hetero. That is the genetic and biological norm. Heterosexuality isn't a choice. Put that in contrast to homosexuality......that goes agains genetics and evolution and biology so there is something else going on there. This is getting way too long.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: hongomon]
    #771798 -

Hongoman please tell me that you have a more intelligent argument than that. Whenever a straight person speaks out against anything gay then a lot of gays start shouting "homophobe he's a homophobe". This just isn't so. Because someone doesn't agree doesn't make them afraid or closed minded. At least Buttion is giving genuine, intelligent debate. That is what is called for. Take your childish rhetoric to off topic discussions.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: chemkid]
    #771968 -

In reply to:
I am speaking strictly from a scientific point of view. That is why I said in the beginning of the post "lets leave religion out of it".



Well, chemkid, on a strictly scientific point, as humand, and thus involved in the assumed evolutionary process, we may not know where evolution is leading us... And if it's true that homosexuality is getting more and more "popular", it seems like there's a reason why.

I personally don't know if homosexuality is genetic or not (and I couldn't bother less, indeed), what I really care about is that being homosexual doesn't hurt anybody...

As on the harrasment (spelling?) side, I would ask a straight man:
1) how does it feel being woed from a ugly girl? Is that just as being fancied from a gay man?

2) how do you think a gay girl feels about being fancied from a man?

3) how do you think a gay man might feel being woed from a girl (and vice versa)?

4) does sexuality lead such a big part of your life that it's so important to find some genetic reason to be so?

5) who said heterosexuality is biologically correct and evolutionary desireble?

6) do you really think that being gay means you can't go with women?

In reply to:
This part is so plainly obvious that it should spark some curious thoughts into a gay person's mind: why am I lke this? It isn't genetic so what else could it be?


I thought you were leaving religion and morality out of the topic... and what's that?
How do you assume that gay people never questioned oneself about his/her nature?
You should at least admit this is a bit incoerent...
Whatever your creed may be, people is not allowed to know what's in God's schemes, so who am I to question that?

Sexuality is not a choice, nor an evolutionary drop out... it's simply an OPTION.



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"Love is the law; love under will..."

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #772024 -

chemkid, I am very stupid. Please explain to me which part of my rhetoric was childish, for I cannot see it. I will repeat the two examples I gave: first, your charicature of a gay man as a "flamer" with an affected lisp. Please be responsible with your every statement here, for this is a sensitive subject, okay?

Second, is your preposterous connection between the "making" of a homosexual and the "making" of a rapist, or a pedophile! What the fuck! Your suggested corelation between these suggests a close link in your mind. Why didn't you suggest a link between a homosexual and a kleptomaniac, or a pathological liar? Why did you choose what you did?

But don't waste time on my post, you've fallen way short answering buttonion's questions, which, as you have pointed out, are genuine, intelligent debate.

Still, since I'm here, I'll respond:

"Someone else asked when did I choose to be hetero.? You don't choose to be hetero. That is the genetic and biological norm. Heterosexuality isn't a choice. Put that in contrast to homosexuality......that goes agains genetics and evolution and biology so there is something else going on there. This is getting way too long."

You cannot avoid circularity with that argument, chemkid. You triply beg questions of genetics, evolution, and biology. You have to understand that most gay men don't choose to be gay. Try to imagine someone, out of boredom, or rebelliousness, or for whatever reason, choosing to go against their sexuality (imagine YOU doing that in ITSELF, go ahead), in particular when that choice would group them with the most stigmatized class in their culture!

Sorry you felt that you would come in and make a few off-the-cuff comments and leave us all wiser.


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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: hongomon]
    #772181 -

Hongomon: I suggest you back and reread who made comments with a lisp. It wasn't I. I have better comment and remarks to make than to randomly poke fun at the very people I am trying to understand.

As for your question "why didn't I suggest a link between a homosexual and a kleptomaniac....." Actually, those examples work as well. Re-read my last few posts. I never equated them as the same thing only that similar lifestyles claim genetics are the driving force. (Why am I repeating myself). You're trying to turn this into a "straight man bashing gay man" post. Reread the original questions. Nothing in there bashes homosexuals in fact I blatantly say "....be proud....". Instead of coming in this post stirring up a fire where there is none and making accusations about me (which if you go back and reread the threads, you'll find it wasn't me who made that remark) try fully understanding what is being discussed here. And if you do that you may just leave here a bit wiser (not just by me but from those engaging in intelligent debate)


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: Swami]
    #772230 -

"I lived in near SF for many years. Most of the gays that I knew were TOTALLY OBSESSED with sex. That was all they talked about and seemed their entire focus. This borders on pathogenic."
-----

I agree. But keep in mind that San Francisco in a gay mecca. If you're looking for gay sex, everyone knows SF is where you want to be. I wouldn't call it representive of the average gay person's life. I'm not saying that's what you're saying BTW, just using it to make a point.

Take a vacation to Rio de Janeiro sometime.
You'll find the same degree of sexual obsession there, only with heterosexuals.


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #772245 -

I have been studying homosexuality for over 30 years and there is much that I could say. Instead here are three words to answer your question:

Predisposition and conditioning.

I have nothing further to say on this subject.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #772259 -

Well I for one don't think chemkid is a homophobe. Unless there's something I missed.
I commend him for his courage and honesty actually.
I've made controversial statements before and been jumped on in the past.
Of course I kicked the crap out of them, but that's a story for another time..

Chemkid, one question I do have though is how you jibe the two following statements:

" Nothing in there bashes homosexuals in fact I blatantly say "....be proud....".

"I believe that homosexuality is (for lack of a better word) a sickness. I compare it to other deviant lifestyles like pedophilia, serial killing, raping of women etc."

You're sick.
Be proud.

"Say it loud, I'm sick and I'm proud!"
I'm sorry but James Brown leapt into my head for a moment!


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #772273 -

I gave my answer to your original question so let?s explore another theme. I?m not quite clear on this:

Homosexuality is a lifestyle that needs to try to be changed by these individuals

I am not saying you shouldn't be gay "LETS BE CLEAR ON THIS".

??? Do you rescind the first comment? I know it is not that hard to nit-pick at others people?s posts and eventually find some sort of contradiction, but I think this is a pretty important idea we are talking about- I see no reason that gays should feel obligated to change their lifestyle.

Like White Widow pointed out, answering the question ?Why should homosexuality be changed by these individuals?? with an appeal to nature/evolution?s ?plan? or God?s plan is untenable (no religion, right?). To say that we should not engage in any behavior that may reduce the odds that we will propagate our genes would eliminate a lot of the American lifestyle. And God?s plan?? there is no point in even arguing this.

What other reasons ?from a scientific point of view? do you have to believe that homosexuality ?needs to try to be changed by these individuals?? Or do you rescind?


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: Jellric]
    #772311 -

Encountered nearly the same attitude living in Long Beach and San Diego (which also have large Gay populations), so it is not just limited to SF.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #772487 -

The human genome has finally been mapped (except for the exons) and there is no proof anywhere of homosexuality. It is indeed a choice.
The genes might be mapped, but the functions of all the genes is hardly well known.

It is quite possible that there is a gene (or genes) which confer a predisposition to homosexuality. Your argument using evolution ignores the idea of genes which can be passed down before the carrier dies or may never express themselves in certain individuals (recessive genes). Said genes may also require certain hormonal 'triggers' in utero in order to express themselves.

Even if no 'abnormal' (for lack of a better term) genes are involved, a predisposition to homosexuality may be congenital (a person may be born with it). When a fetus is exposed to different hormones secreted by the mother during development it is possible that these hormones will change the development of the brain. It is known from experiments with animals that administration of hormones during fetal development will affect physical brain development and cause a normally female animal to exhibit male behavior and vice versa.

So, a person may very well be born with a predisposition to homosexuality. How a person responds to this is a matter of choice, but their natural inclinations (urges) aren't. Just as a person predisposed to heterosexuality may choose a life of celibacy, so may a person predisposed to homosexuality choose to live a heterosexual lifestyle (probably because of social pressures and upbringing). I would venture to say this is what has occurred with men who have been married to a woman, have children and then finally 'come out' later in life.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #772844 -

It wasn't you who affected the lisp--Shroomhermit changed your quote. I apologize.

I'm also sorry to jump on you like this, but I really think YOU need to go reread your posts. You constantly jump between "be proud of who you are" and "homosexuals are sick and need to change."

But I'll keep out after this post. I think buttonion's post--the last on page two--was excellent and as yet mostly unanswered.

To go back to your original topic--part of the significance of this debate has to do with gay men and women's legal rights. Two in particular--to marry and to adopt. Whether or not it is a choice is crucial. "Sick" deviants can't claim tax breaks afforded to legally married couples, and they certainly can't take a baby into their home!

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: hongomon]
    #773623 -

Many of my experiances with gay people have also been similar to swami's, although i would still consider having a gay friend if they were cool. (I have never met one that i could feel comfortable hanging around with)

I think that chemkid was just pointing out the connection between socially taboo acts and lifestyles. Restrictions make some people want to do it more. I dont think that it is unreasonable to suggest that some forms of homosexuality may be caused by some type of a psychological disorder. For instance, i know many gays who are bisexual and struggle with the decision of which sex to go with. Sexuality is a major component of the human psyche and it would be foolhearty to totally disregard that fact due to political correctness when discussing the cause of homosexuality. I think that there are many issues behind it and i try not to stereotype, but this is just what i see.


--------------------
:egyptian:

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Jellric]
    #774627 -

Well Jellric, you ask how I can jibe the two statements...very easily!! I was asked my opinion. Now it is no secret that I disagree with a gay lifestyle. I think it's wrong in all categories: biology, evolution, religion, parental abilities........etc. So, as I was asked my opinion I gave it. Because I disagree with a particular way of life doesn't mean I "bash" that way of life. I don't feel that homosexuals are any less human and should be beaten down in the street. Yes I feel that homosexualtiy is a sickness of sort, but I don't hate gay people because of it. There is a big difference between disapproval and outward hatered and violence. So are gay people even seeking my approval....most definitely not. I was asked so I replied.

Thanks for the support of my opinion and saying I'm not a homophobe (I certainly am not)


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: buttonion]
    #774656 -

Buttonion: You ask if I rescind my first statement......absolutley not. There is a difference in what my opinion is and what I would advise someone to do. I feel that in light of the evidence (in my mind) that gay people should try to reform themselves because it seems to be contrary to everything human in us. However my opinion isn't so high and mighty that I would advise you to change your ways. It is your life/your choice. I simply stated my belief. If I hated someone everytime they disagreed with my opinions or way of thinking then my list of friends would be pretty short. Again...if you're happy with who you are then cool....life is hard enough without being worried about what I think. If you're going to ask my opinion on something, it is only fare to be prepared for something not in line with your opinion.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #774799 -

I dont require any validation from genetics to tell me that it's okay to be gay. It really isn't relevant to me, and if they ever do find a "gay gene" then good for the geneticist that found it.

I do however find it unfair for you Chemkid, to imply that I ever had a choice in the first place, because if I did, I would most certainly have chosen to be straight, because I know for certain that I wouldn't have had to put up with 1/10th of the bullshit that I've had to put up with through out my life.

I knew I was gay as early as 10 years old (I'm 26 now), but i wound up going into denial about it. 16 years of depression and 3 suicide attempts later, I'm finaly comfortable with who I am. But it shoudnt have been like that, and I blame Society and Religion for what I had to go through.

It makes me sick to think that all that pain was caused by a bunch of people who made it painfully clear to me that i was somehow immoral or sick or evil because of somthing that I had NO CHOICE about.

Well, there goes my $0.02 and my first post to The Shroomery... hope i gave you all somthing to think about.

Oh, and by the way. To those of you straight people who talked about being hassled by the vultures, I'm sorry if any of you were made uncomfortable, or scarred as a result of your experiance. I don't like guys who pull that shit either, and I'm even made uncomfortable by them. There is WAAAAAAAAY more to life than sex.

Soulecho

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Soulecho]
    #775471 -

I am of the well thought out opinion that if the ratio of homosexual men to heterosexual men were to increase and all women were to become bisexual, that a state nearer to heaven on earth could be achieved for the remaining heterosexual men. Of course I am speaking as a heterosexual man who will remain so.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #775615 -

I've heard some interresting statistics about Homosexuality. They have found that chances of the youngest male in the family has a higher chance of being homosexual. They think has something to do with the testeosterone levels in the mother being used up with the previous children. I dont know too much about the topic but I found this interresting.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Jellric]
    #775640 -



--------------------
[Everything stated above is, fictional, and is a result of a delusional mind, role playing]

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: therewatchingme]
    #776152 -

To therewatchingme - I am no defect. Genetics do not explain the basis of EVERY behaviour, the study of genetics and sociobiology as proven this. There are theories, but there are not many absolutes. So, defect? no. Difference? yes. Still valid people even though they are different people.

adam


--------------------
-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: buttonion]
    #776399 -

It appears I was not to firm in that belief. I have since changed it.
After a lengthy conversation with a gay friend of mine, I have decided that being homosexual can either be a choice, or something you are born with.


--------------------
The Bodhisattva Vow

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Tripalistic_One]
    #776852 -

Wow. I think that is the first time I have read a post in this forum where someone admits they have changed their opinion or belief on something- rather than continue to defend a lame argument or just drop out of the conversation all together. Cool! I vow to do the same if it happens to me!


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #778586 -

hmmm...the first post makes the assumption that the only goal of sex is procreation...
most of my sex (actually ALL of my sex) has been motivated by pleasure seeking, energy whatever...
I don't think it matters much...
in the context of long term surviaval on Gaia, the fags are actually doing the world a favor by not pumping out more spawn...over population is getting NUTS!
So many things can get us off...
I like my autoSexual impulses...(on demand, 24/7, wether i need a tug er not hahaha!).
I dunno...i dig that PUSSY on my tongue, that's for sure...couldn't image prefering a blast of jizz...

Thx,
the pale e

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: PaleE]
    #778749 -

To be honest with you PaleE I agree with most of what you said. But it is a bit off topic. I never made the assumption that the only goal of sex was for procreation. I am merely trying to point out the connection/disconnection of homosexuality and genetics. Since evolution/biology doesn't favor (necessarily) enjoyment only survival that is why I brought up biologically unviable.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #780680 -

Also if homosexuality was genetic you would find it running in family lines......this isn't the case.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #780986 -

One question, why do you give a dam?

Really, why is it even an issue for you?

Did you have a conversation about it and then post, or see something on t.v. and then post, or is this something that you have been batting around in your brain?

If this is something that you think about a lot, why is that? Like wise if you just had a conversation about or something it why did you chose to take it to a different medium?

Why does it matter more then what someone likes on there pizza, or what kinda clothing they wear, or what they chose to put into there bodies?

And also, associating homosexuality with rape, your a jerk, sorry, but you are, hands down. And yes, your association does kinda make me think that you have some pent up discontent with the gay community, or maybe just some gay feelings that you have had and are disgusted with. (I don't mean that as a put down, I love being queer!)

You see coming from the perspective of a bisexual I think any single sex orientation is a sickness, why would you not want the best of both worlds??

Also most men are obsessed with sex. Imagine having partners that are just as obsessed with sex as you are, scary combination right....

Also it is easy to see why homosexuals want to let it be known that it is not a choice, if you say that it is you open your self up to more discrimination.

But really, why do you care? Why is it any big deal to you, are you struggling with the issue yourself? And if so, why? Is it because of your up bringing, your religious beliefs, because your unhappy with previous gay friends, what?

Also, I can't see why on earth your gay friends where so pushy with you, the best strategy for turning out members of the same sex is to be really open with your sexuality and be confident and they will just follow you around like your some queer god, that is if they have those feelings. Maybe you just have this issue in your head and you over analyze all of there moves unjustly.

Lurker

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: shroomerylurker]
    #781102 -

I can see you are another one of those types of people........as soon as someone mentions anything near a negative point of view toward homosexuality then................"he must be insecure in his sexuality, he must be a closet homosexual himself, he must be a gay basher, he must be closed minded" . Is this the best you can bring to the table. It is no wonder the gay community has such a difficult time getting mainstream America to understand you or accept you. Anytime someone comes with a legitimate debate you bring no answers, only shallow comments with no thought or content. At least people like Buttonion were trying to make some understanding and asking legitimate questions in return, you my friend are either a teenager or an idiot.

>One question, why do you give a dam?
Really, why is it even an issue for you?<<

Well because the truth is always important. By your logic no scientific breakthroughs would ever be made because really, why does it matter?


>>You see coming from the perspective of a bisexual I think any single sex orientation is a sickness, why would you not want the best of both worlds??<<


Isn't this sweet!!! You say I am a jerk for saying that homosexuality is a sickness and you turn right around and do the same thing........grow up!!
As for your comments about why my gay friends were pushy with me.......did you read my posts?? I have no gay friends and never remarked as to how they were pushy.
Let's hope in the future that you actually read the posted questions and come with intellligent debate. I assure you that if you are a marker for your community then I want nothing to do with you and your narrow ideas. If buttonion is a marker for his community than maybe there is some hope of understanding and middle ground. Go home kid and learn a few things!!!!!!!!


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

Edited by chemkid (07/27/02 08:37 PM)

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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: chemkid]
    #781354 -



--------------------
[Everything stated above is, fictional, and is a result of a delusional mind, role playing]

Edited by therewatchingme (07/28/02 02:31 AM)

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: therewatchingme]
    #781383 -

chemkid: "Also if homosexuality was genetic you would find it running in family lines......this isn't the case"

what about recessive genes that can be carried down for several generations without ever actually manifesting themselves. for example... Mark has a recessive "homosexuality" gene (hypothetically speaking, of course, if such a thing were to exist). he could be straight and still carry the gene. he could have 4 children, there is a 25% chance of each of them getting that recessive gene from Mark (so 1 out of those 4 children will probably carry it). if his wife Nancy *doesn't* have that same recessive gene, there is *no* chance of that gene becoming dominant and manifesting itself in one of the children. but it would still be potentially carried down. if she *does*, there is a chance that it could become dominant in one of the children. so you see this could go on for several generations before manifesting itself.
but anyway, .. there is also the possibility of a mutation or a DNA error.

and now, before any homosexuals take offense at this... mututation is a *natural* occurence. its part of nature, its everywhere. there *is* a chaotic element to nature. its not bad or good. it just is. also, i do believe that - according to nature - the purpose of sex is procreation. that's the reason we're attracted to each other, the reason orgasms give us this intense pleasure - its a fucking trick to get us to make babies. we get pleasure out of it because otherwise we wouldn't do it.

as for hormones... it makes a lot of sense.. but then, what about the feminine guys who are straight but everyone thinks they're gay? are they just in denial? or the masculine guys who are homosexual? does that mean its necessarily a lifestyle choice?

anyway.. my personal experiences here. my little brother is retarded. it's not hereditary his brain just didn't develop right. he learned to squirm on his belly for years before he learned to crawl, he can't talk (but he understands what we say - ?!?), he still shits his pants. its not pretty. it just happened. who's to say homosexuality doesn't happen the same way? perhaps its a more common occurence that what happened to my brother.

also, one of my best friends is gay. when i met him he was extremely homophobic. i used to bug him to not be so harsh. i also thought it was odd, because he just seemed to have a lot of feminine features. he also saw a psychiatrist and took a few medications.. panic attacks, depression, etc.. eventually after i had known him for several years, he told me he was gay.. it was definitely not a lifestyle choice. he was very afraid that i wouldn't accept him anymore. but all i could think was "what took you so long to get to this point?" he's much happier now. and he's not a flamer or anything.. most people don't know he's gay, although if you're around him for a while you start to notice something "odd". he doesn't like the people who are "flaming" and who act like little girls.. he doesn't think its anything special at all, its just the way it is. so i think its something you are born with - hereditary or mutation possibly - or its a choice you make, for some confused reason. either way, its doesn't make you a good person *or* a bad person.

sorry if this has been covered before; i haven't read the whole thread.


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Edited by Amoeba665 (07/28/02 03:44 AM)

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Soulecho]
    #781574 -

I knew I was gay as early as 10 years old (I'm 26 now), but i wound up going into denial about it. 16 years of depression and 3 suicide attempts later, I'm finaly comfortable with who I am. But it shoudnt have been like that, and I blame Society and Religion for what I had to go through.

You really shouldn't make a big deal out of it, what other society would be more tolerant of your lifestyle? I take it you either live in Canada or the United States. In the next decade you'll be able to get married. You blame religion; even though most people who tormented you through your years were probably not religious unless they were a follower of Rev. Phelps or had a fundamentalist agenda. While mysteriously all abrahamic faiths condemn the act of sodomy (be it man and woman or man and man) the scriptures don't really make a big deal out of it. It forbids the act of sodomy, and logically I can see why. It doesn't teach to hate homosexuals, but to hate the sin.


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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #781891 -

First off,
"I assure you that if you are a marker for your community then I want nothing to do with you and your narrow ideas"
My community, yea, I will tell everyone a the meetings that you don't want anything to do with us.

I mean come on. You danced around my question but did not answer it, what made you bring that question here? Scientist will figure out if it is genetic or not, your not resolving that issue by bringing it here. You are fulfilling your need to talk about it. Why is that, my question is why does it matter to you, any more then why some people like cats and some like dogs. Does not mean that your a homosexual, or you ever will be, why jump to that conclusion? I was thinking a coworker might have brought it up or something, or a family member is gay and you don't like it. Hell you might have just wanted a thread that got a lot of replies.
If it was just truth your after, why did you not make a thread on the genetics of people liking anchovies or Pepsi vs. coke? I really don't think it is the truth about the issue your after, what do you think someone here knows? Why not go to a genetics research center or something if the truth about that is what your after. You didn't you brought it to a magic mushroom message board. Which leads me to believe that your venting for some reason other then finding the truth.
I mean you can dance around my question forever but it is still there. So why not take a look at your self for a bit, find the issue, resolve it, and move on. Because the issue that you brought up really will not be resolved on this forum. That's all I am saying.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: shroomerylurker]
    #782075 -

Amoeba: you're right in the fact that if a gene exists for homosexuality and it is recessive then it will be masked until it meets up with another recessive gene in the spouse of the original carrier. So it may indeed take a couple generations to manifest itself. None the less it would still be traceable in family lines. Don't get me wrong, there have been some families that have had more than one gay person but statstically speaking the numbers have never added up to where one could say that it is genetic. Good comment though!!

Lurker: the origini of my interest is in being a biochemist. The reason I am posting is to propogate truth. As to your silly arguing over "why are you worried about it".....I am not "worried about it". I have made a post to stimulate conversation and understanding. You have brought no knowledge to the table. Do you simply cruise through posts talking ignorantly for the hell of it? Or, do you have something real to add? It makes no sense what you ask "why did you post in this forum"....why has any post been made in any of the other forums? Well it's for the sake of discussion. Why is this place any less appropriate than other forums like a genetics board or evolutionary board, etc......this happen to be a spirituality and "PHILOSOPHY" board. This is actually the perfect place to discuss this. As for the topic......why has anyone chosen the topics they posted? Is there some grand conspiracy behind their posts? Is it not really the truth they are after? We could ask you the same question....why are you answering in this forum.....do you really hope to resolve this issue or are you just starting senseless arguments? So here is what I propose: Stop being an idiot and questioning my motives for making this post (oh yeah it's because I have penned up homosexual frustration, huh?) instead, bring some answers. You obviously have strong feelings about this so make your point known. If you truely want to build a bridge to people as stupid as me who hate and bash all homosexuals then help change that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(were you able to sense the sarcasm in that last remark???)


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #782645 -

In reply to:
Also if homosexuality was genetic you would find it running in family lines


Actually, I know someone who has 5 sisters, 4 of which are gay....and they all came out, independatly of each other - and it took years before they all 'knew' each other was gay.

-It is my opinion( since science has yet to prove otherwise) Homosexuality is a condition, aberant, but not harmful.
-ood

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Anonymous]
    #782785 -

I really can't argue against that. All I can say is that situation is truely not likely statistically speaking. I personally doubt that it was genetic. Being siblings and all they have everything else in common: environment, parents, schools, church, etc, So whatever it is that means "gay" for a person, which I surely do not know (I just believe it isn't genetic) it would be hard to discern because they have so many other commonalities. You have an example that really can't be argued against until we do know the function of every single gene. Good Post!!!


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #784557 -

I think if genetics played a role for certain than you would be "this" way or "that" way. How is bisexuality explained.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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