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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: Swami]
    #770005 - 07/23/02 05:51 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Swami, I'm sorry that you've had such negative experiences with gay people. I, too, had experiences similar to yours when I was around that age and even continue to have them now.

All I can say is that it's not fair to judge a group of people as a whole on the experiences that you've had with only some members of that group.

You say you do not discriminate, yet you say you no longer keep any gay friends. Does this mean that if you met a gay person, you would not be his friend even if he was the type of person you would be friends with if he were not gay?

Also, I think the SF area is an exception to "normal" gay culture... And besides, I know tons of people who are TOTALLY OBSESSED with sex; and they are all heterosexual! I've never met a gay person where I live who is even close to the border-line pathogenic people you spoke of. I have, however, met many straight people who could be seen as pathogenic in their obsessions with sex.

Have you ever heard of the show called "The Real World" on MTV? It's basically a reality show where they put 7 people in a house together and tape their lives. On each season, they usually have at least one gay person; and from watching that show I can definitely say that all gay people are NOT like what you described.

Also, have you ever seen the movie called "Lifetime Companion"? It deals with the time period in SF that you talked about and tells a story of a group of gay males who were affected by the newly discovered AIDS virus. It does a good job showing both sides of the story...

Anyway... It is good, at least, that you say you will fight for gay rights. Still, you cannot say you do not discriminate if you say you will not go to a gay party. Not ALL gay people are like the ones you have had experiences with, and many straight people are just as bad as the gay people you spoke of.


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Namaste.


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/22/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Jellric]
    #770242 - 07/23/02 07:14 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

That is an impossibility. Evolution and genetics always favors survival and procreation. The "brakes" that you talk about come in the form of sickness, disease, starvation, etc. from over population.

This post was not meant to judge the right or wrong with being gay. It was meant to point out the fact that genetics is not involved and to ask gay people why genetic validation is so important to most. If you are gay then fine, no judgement here. Genetics shouldn't be your reason for being homosexual. This is a preposterous notion.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/05/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #770375 - 07/23/02 08:04 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

...ask gay people why genetic validation is so important to most.

What gays really want by saying this is to convey to other people that their choice of sexual orientation is not the result of a conscious decision - it is something they just feel. In other words, it is determined by forces that are out of their control just as is heterosexual?s. This is the underlying meaning behind the statement ?it?s genetic.?

If I had a preference for heavy metal and society kept telling me that I need to snap out of it and start liking rap, I would also want to somehow get the message across that it?s not that simple! I didn?t deliberate over this and then decide I?ll have a preference for heavy metal- for some reason, this is what I like!

Although evidence does not support the idea that sexual orientation is hereditary, I think the more important underlying message is that their sexual orientation is really out of their control. I too wish people would appreciate this simple fact.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #770382 - 07/23/02 08:06 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

That is an impossibility

Evolution is a theory. We are nowhere near understanding completely how it works. Do you claim to know the mind of the Mother?


--------------------
Namaste.


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OfflineTripalistic_One
Bodhisattva
Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 76
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #770441 - 07/23/02 08:28 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Homosexuality is a choice, you are not born into it.
And on a side note, it is not wrong to be a homosexual. It is simply a sexual orientation.


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The Bodhisattva Vow


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/05/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Tripalistic_One]
    #770510 - 07/23/02 08:53 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

You seem pretty firm in this belief. May I ask what leads you to think this? And what do you mean by choice?


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Tripalistic_One]
    #770572 - 07/23/02 09:14 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Hmm, are you saying that I choose to be attracted to women and gay men choose to be attracted to other men?


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OfflineTrUmAs
Stranger
Registered: 07/14/02
Posts: 16
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #770582 - 07/23/02 09:18 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

when asked the question to his holiness the Dali Llama regarding homosexuality, he responded..." some people were soldiers in their past lives, and some were peasants...a man today could have been a female in his past life and the same goes with women....whether or not they choose to carry these past lives on over onto the present is solely up to the spirit...so some gays may have been a female in their past life, thus explaining the feminity presence they display, and they same gos for Butch Dykes.....


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/22/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: buttonion]
    #770745 - 07/23/02 10:43 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

buttonion: Well, if as you said, people say it's genetic simply to convey it's beyond their control, even though they may know it is not genetic.........this seems far fetched. Plus you are not giving gay people enough credit. You are implying that gay people will use a false argument to convey an idea (homosexualtiy is not a choice) simply to make people understand. Gay people have never lead easy lives and I don't suspect they would start now by taking the "easy" but false argument. I am sure that the gay people that claim it is genetic....full heartedly believe that it is indeed genetic.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/22/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: 11polakie11]
    #770751 - 07/23/02 10:46 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Polakie: You have thus far given the best reasoning I have heard. I agree that for the most part it doesn't matter whether it is a choice or hormonal or whatever. I just don't like to see gay people putting wrong information out there when it is completely untrue.

I am glad that you don't seek a genetic defense of who you are and are happy in just being yourself.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/22/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: buttonion]
    #770776 - 07/23/02 10:59 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

This simple question you asked me is going to open a can of worms but if you can handle intelligent discussion then so can I :-)

By choice I mean that the personality of the individual, whether consious or subconciously, makes a choice to follow that lifestyle. I believe that homosexuality is (for lack of a better word) a sickness. I compare it to other deviant lifestyles like pedophilia, serial killing, raping of women etc. (I am not referring to genetic mental disorder like alzheimers etc.) No one would agree that there is a genetic predisposition toward raping women and pediophilia. I assure you though that if you question these people they truely feel as if they are born with those desires and impulses. Should these people be looked upon in a favorable light because there is "nothing they can do to change"? SO........we try to reform these people and convince them that they are leading a deviant lifestyle. Because the gay lifestyle doesn't prey upon innocent people then they say that it is a valid choice and is genetic. Not true, it is a biologically unviable lifestyle and is a lifestyle that needs to try to be changed by these individuals. The lack of"victims" as with rapists and what not doesn't preclude homosexuality from being a "sickness".


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


Edited by chemkid (07/23/02 11:02 PM)


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OfflineKilla_J
Killa

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 120
Loc: over here
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #770783 - 07/23/02 11:02 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

It seems everybody believes what they want to about homosexuality, so I am just going to put what I've learned from my biology and psychology classes. Homosexuality is not genetic in the sense that it is an inherited trait. There are cases where identical twins have had different sexual orientations. This leans towards a non-biological reason. However, physical differences can be shown between gay and straight people's brains. It is believed to have to do with differing levels of hormones. Whether this change is the cause or effect is unknown, but this leans towards some type of biological reason. My psych professor (who happens to be gay) explained that it is generally accepted as both biological and situational. So, take that as you will. But, I have to ask, why does it matter to anyone other than someone who is very religious?


--------------------
I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. - Frank Sinatra


Edited by Killa_J (07/23/02 11:03 PM)


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/22/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Killa_J]
    #770792 - 07/23/02 11:06 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

because truth should always be sought. It is important.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #771033 - 07/24/02 12:36 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

All I can say is that it's not fair to judge a group of people as a whole on the experiences that you've had with only some members of that group.

Huh? Fair? Judgement? How is associating with people that do NOT make me feel uncomfortable being unfair to anyone? I do and say nothing offensive.

If I got too close to a single gay male, they always seemed to take it as an invitation, therefore I don't get close. Oftentimes total gay strangers took my friendliness as a come-on. I had WAY too many negative experiences.

If you got robbed several times in the same neighborhood, you would likely stop going there.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblecheesenoonions
??????????????

Registered: 04/02/01
Posts: 584
Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: Swami]
    #771090 - 07/24/02 01:02 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know if this has been brought up (there is alot of reading in this post), but if someone claims they are born with something it doesn't have to be a genetic trait. The womb is an environment that influences developement just like or more so than any other at any stage in life. I don't think homosexuality is always genetic, but i don't think it is always a choice either.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: cheesenoonions]
    #771097 - 07/24/02 01:07 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

True enough. But the part that IS a choice is to respect the wishes of another. That was what put me off. Not the homosexuality, but the violation of a trust or the lack of respect. When I said "No!" for the third time or started to get quite angry and violent, then there was ALWAYS the lame, "I couldn't help myself." which is bullshit.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
lol...TrUmAs [Re: TrUmAs]
    #771104 - 07/24/02 01:12 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

"so some gays may have been a female in their past life, thus explaining the feminity presence they display...and the same goes for butch dykes"

That Dali Lama - wise and funny...who'd of thunk?


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #771138 - 07/24/02 01:25 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

i have to agree with the case that you make. i'm probably not as educated as you on the scientific evidence of this matter. however, some of the behavior displayed by certain members of the gay community causes me to question their belief that their sexuality is genetic. for instance, anne heche, announced to everyone she was gay and was dating ellen. but then mere months later she had dumped ellen and was back to dating men. how could behavior like that be possible if you believe that homosexuality is genetic and not a choice. also, it seems like there a good number of middle aged gay men out there that at one time in their life had been married. now they are leading a gay lifestyle. most of them will proclaim that they just suddenly came to the realization that they were gay. how could that be possible if they were born gay. plus alot of them have kids. if someone were born gay then you would think that they would have a real tough time being turned on by someone who is of the opposite sex.

my comments are not ment to offend, just to point out some things that bother me when people claim that homosexuality is something you are born into.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: htownkid28]
    #771166 - 07/24/02 01:35 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

i admit anne heche is probably an unfair example of this but i just wanted to use somebody well known to make my point.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/05/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #771189 - 07/24/02 01:46 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

By choice I mean that the personality of the individual, whether consious or subconciously, makes a choice to follow that lifestyle. I believe that homosexuality is (for lack of a better word) a sickness.

OK, so there is a choice to follow the lifestyle rather than remain in the closet? but what about to feel attracted to the same sex? Not many would agree that there is with the latter and neither do I.


I compare it to other deviant lifestyles like pedophilia, serial killing, raping of women etc. (I am not referring to genetic mental disorder like alzheimers etc.)

Including homosexuality amongst these other deviant behaviors (normatively speaking) suggests that it also warrants the condemnation that a killer or rapist does. Why not some more benign deviant behaviors like a preference for ?Color Me Badd? or anchovies on pizza? Is normative deviancy your sole criteria for sickness? Or does something make homsexuality as morally reprehensible as your other examples?


No one would agree that there is a genetic predisposition toward raping women and pediophilia. I assure you though that if you question these people they truely feel as if they are born with those desires and impulses.

This is what I was saying in my last post. By saying that their orientation is genetic, I don?t think some homosexuals are consciously trying to deceive others or hanging by the threads of weak, unsubstantiated argument. I think a lot of people do not make the distinction between genetic and biological (although there is a distinction of course). Someone with a homosexual orientation at least knows that he did not choose that this would be his orientation, it was out of his control.


Should these people be looked upon in a favorable light because there is "nothing they can do to change"?

No, we don?t have to worship them, just treat them like other people.


SO........we try to reform these people and convince them that they are leading a deviant lifestyle. Because the gay lifestyle doesn't prey upon innocent people then they say that it is a valid choice and is genetic. Not true, it is a biologically unviable lifestyle and is a lifestyle that needs to try to be changed by these individuals. The lack of"victims" as with rapists and what not doesn't preclude homosexuality from being a "sickness".

All right.

??it is biologically unviable?- If by this you mean that it reduces the chances for the individual to propagate his own genetic material, then yes, it is biologically unviable.

?It needs to be changed by these individuals?- Why? Just because it is normatively deviant? Because it reduces the chances for gene propagation? Both? Are we obligated to homogenize all of behavior and/or ensure that everyone must propogate their own genes? Why must it be changed by these individuals?


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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