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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133179 - 12/12/02 01:10 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

"I cannot say with certitude but I think it has to do with being accepted and evading personal responsiblity for their actions. A third reason might be to get themselves put on the roles of things like affirmative action so that all employers would have to hire a certain percentage of homosexuals. As I say, I do not know for certain."

Evading personal responsibility for what actions? Being gay is not an action.

Maybe it's because they honestly believe that it's not a choice?

I think a more poignant question is, why is it so important for the anti gay folks to believe it is a choice?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133210 - 12/12/02 01:29 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

I cannot say with certitude but I think it has to do with being accepted and evading personal responsiblity for their actions.

Well, at least I am glad you said that you don't know for certain.

I do not take the stand that homosexuality is not a choice in order to "evade responsibility for my actions." I do take this stand, however, because it does have something to do with being accepted.

I think most people these days are anti-racism because they realize that skin color is not something you can change. It is just the way you were born, and there is no reason to be prejudice against someone for the way he/she was born. They can't control that, and thus it's not their fault. I feel that since I am gay myself and I know it is not a choice, informing people of this will make them a lot more tolerant and accepting of gay people because it's something they cannot control.

If you don't believe this you are simply being a bigot because I am a gay person and I am telling you all that it is not a choice!

A third reason might be to get themselves put on the roles of things like affirmative action so that all employers would have to hire a certain percentage of homosexuals. As I say, I do not know for certain.

Umm, this has never ever crossed my mind at all! Though now that you mention it, I guess it might be an extra benefit of homosexuality being accepted as something that is not a choice. It sounds like a silly motive that you came up with simply for the sake of saying that we must have a motive.

Like I said in the other thread, I don't homosexuality is necessarily genetic, but caused by certain biological factors during the development of the fetus in the womb. I am not sure exactly what causes it, but I can say with certainty that it is not a choice.

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133218 - 12/12/02 01:32 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

"I'm not entirely sure why. I don't really have any huge personal connection with it. I'm not gay, and none of my closest friends are gay either. I have a handful of gay friends, but I didn't really know anyone gay when I first developed this opinion.

I do, however, feel that homophobia is just as wrong as racism. I also find it to be very apparent that homophobia is rampant in our society. As it stands now, gay people are treated like shit by a very large percentage of our society.

It's pretty much impossible not to witness homophobia in some form on a daily basis."

I do not know where you live but where I live I do not see any homophobia at all.  I hope you are not referring to the media and in particular television.  I don't know if it has occurred to you but those that run that networks only let us see what they want us to see.  Why do you think they call it "programming"? :wink: 


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133219 - 12/12/02 01:32 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

You may choose to engage in heterosexual behavior, you may choose to engage in homosexual behavior, or you may choose to avoid all sexual behavior and remain celebate. Regardless of what you may feel is your inborn sexuality, you make choices to engage or not engage in certain behavior. I think this is what is meant by it being a choice to many people.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133220 - 12/12/02 01:33 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

Phluck, I just want to say that I have appreciated and agreed with every post you have made in this thread. I'm so glad there is someone as eloquent and intelligent as you out there who can defend the same viewpoint on this issue that I have even though you have no personal reason to do so. Thank you!

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133222 - 12/12/02 01:34 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

"Evading personal responsibility for what actions? Being gay is not an action.

Maybe it's because they honestly believe that it's not a choice?

I think a more poignant question is, why is it so important for the anti gay folks to believe it is a choice?"

I think Evolving answered this.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Evolving]
    #1133234 - 12/12/02 01:41 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

Though what you say about acting on your sexual desires as being a choice is true, it's not what I mean by homosexuality being a choice.

It is not even a choice for me to be attracted to men. When I see a cute guy and think to myself "Wow, he's cute," I am not choosing to do so. It is simply a thought that enters my head, as I am sure that even a married man cannot stop the thought "Wow, she is hot," from entering his mind when he sees an attractive woman other than his wife.

Like I said before, I have been attracted to men since I can remember being attracted to anyone. I never chose to do so. It's just the way I am. I can't just choose to start liking women, just as I never chose to start liking men.

That's the truth (at least for me it is!) whether you choose to accept it or not.

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.


Edited by RebelSteve33 (12/12/02 01:46 AM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Evolving]
    #1133256 - 12/12/02 01:55 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

"Regardless of what you may feel is your inborn sexuality, you make choices to engage or not engage in certain behavior."

I could fuck a million men, and I still would be attracted to women. It's a choice I _could_ make, but I don't see why I, or anyone would.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1133266 - 12/12/02 01:58 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

In reply to:

I never chose to do so. It's just the way I am.



I do not doubt you, I am not defending certain opinions of others, I am trying to communicate what I believe to be their way of thinking. My point was that many of those who talk about homosexuality being a choice look at it the same way as celibacy being a choice or monogamy being a choice. Specifically, we can address those who look upon homosexuality as being morally wrong. From their perspective, the hand you are dealt with in life is not so important as the way you play it.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133268 - 12/12/02 02:00 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

I could fuck a million men...

OK. I will take some of that action. I will lay $100,000 against your $10,000 that you could not. Put your money where your mouth (or other body part) is. I will draw up the legal documents tomorrow...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1133273 - 12/12/02 02:02 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

Thanks, Steve.

I'm glad you're here to back me up. It'd be nice if we had a few more gay people pop up to back up the idea that it's not a choice.



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1133276 - 12/12/02 02:02 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

Well, at least I am glad you said that you don't know for certain.

Why would I say otherwise? I thought you knew from previous posts that I think there is very little we can know with certitude. I am not gay therefore how in the world can I know with certitude why they think, if they think, it is important for the cause to be genetic?!?

I think most people these days are anti-racism because they realize that skin color is not something you can change. It is just the way you were born, and there is no reason to be prejudice against someone for the way he/she was born. They can't control that, and thus it's not their fault. I feel that since I am gay myself and I know it is not a choice, informing people of this will make them a lot more tolerant and accepting of gay people because it's something they cannot control.

I think I mentioned that as one of the possibilities, did I not?


If you don't believe this you are simply being a bigot because I am a gay person and I am telling you all that it is not a choice!

Be very careful here, Steve. You are aware, I hope, of the "Be Nice" policy and to imply that if I do not agree with you makes me a bigot is a not-so-subtle way of manipulation and/or calling me a bigot. Is that what you really think?

Umm, this has never ever crossed my mind at all! Though now that you mention it, I guess it might be an extra benefit of homosexuality being accepted as something that is not a choice. It sounds like a silly motive that you came up with simply for the sake of saying that we must have a motive.

Actually it is not a "silly motive" but a driving force of the Gay Lobbyists. I know, I am a lobbyist myself. They want the genetic proof so that they can have affirmative action status and more importantly to them health benefits and insurance benefits under the same protection as heterosexual marriages. There are probably a lot of things you are unaware of regarding their movement.

Last point:

Here is why the genetic element is a poor argument for acceptance. Never ever ever has anyone's genetic make-up made a society "tolerant" of them. In fact just the opposite is the case. If you think that racial prejudice does not exist in the US then you are sadly mistaken. It does and there have been evidences of it right here at the Shroomery. Just because a person is born a certain way does not mean that people will not hate them, poke fun at them, or even kill them.

I know. I am a Native American and a former member of the NAACP.

I wonder how the gay rights crowd will like it when and if it is finally proven to be genetic and they people start aborting babies because they are gay. Makes ya think, doesn't it?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Swami]
    #1133285 - 12/12/02 02:07 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

hah!

Okay, let's see here.

Let's give each guy 5 minutes, it's not much, but it's enough to get off, assuming I'm on the bottom. This means I could do 12 in an hour. Let's give me 8 hours a day to sleep and eat. giving me 16 hours a day, or 192 men in one day.

This means it would take me about 14 and a quarter years to fuck a million men.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133288 - 12/12/02 02:09 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

In reply to:

192 men in one day



OUCH!


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133295 - 12/12/02 02:11 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

I assume that dear Swami missed the fact that you were probably using hyperbole.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133300 - 12/12/02 02:14 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

Hehe, PROBABLY.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133304 - 12/12/02 02:15 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

I think I mentioned that as one of the possibilities, did I not?

Yes, and I acknowledged that when I said that I do take the stand that homosexuality is not a choice because it has something to do with being accepted.

Be very careful here, Steve. You are aware, I hope, of the "Be Nice" policy and to imply that if I do not agree with you makes me a bigot is a not-so-subtle way of manipulation and/or calling me a bigot. Is that what you really think?

I'll admit that I haven't read the "Be Nice" policy, but I hope that what I said doesn't go against it because I do like to consider myself a "nice" guy. When I said 'you', I wasn't referring to you in general. I was using the word 'you' in the plural sense, and what I was saying was directed to anyone who might read it. It was not a personal attack at all; it was just what I think.

Actually it is not a "silly motive" but a driving force of the Gay Lobbyists. I know, I am a lobbyist myself. They want the genetic proof so that they can have affirmative action status and more importantly to them health benefits and insurance benefits under the same protection as heterosexual marriages. There are probably a lot of things you are unaware of regarding their movement.

You're right; there probably are a lot of things I am unaware of regarding the gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender movement. I was not aware of the fact that gay lobbysists were lobbying to receive affirmative action status at all. Being gay is not a big thing to me. I don't think black people should have special rights because they are black, and I don't feel that I should have special rights because I am gay. I feel that my sexuality has nothing to do with the opportunities that are open to me, and I should not be given any special opportunities. My sexuality is not who I am; it's simply my sexuality!

Never ever ever has anyone's genetic make-up made a society "tolerant" of them. In fact just the opposite is the case. If you think that racial prejudice does not exist in the US then you are sadly mistaken. It does and there have been evidences of it right here at the Shroomery. Just because a person is born a certain way does not mean that people will not hate them, poke fun at them, or even kill them.

Of course I realize that there is still racial prejudice in this world. I didn't mean to imply that at all. It's just that, in my mind, it isn't right to kill, hate, or even poke fun of someone because of something that is out of their control. Hopefully I am not the only one who has this belief, and that is why I think that informing people that homosexuality is not a choice does aid in being accepted.

-RebelSteve








--------------------
Namaste.


Edited by RebelSteve33 (12/12/02 02:18 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133311 - 12/12/02 02:18 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

I assume that dear Swami missed the fact that you were probably using hyperbole.

*Slaps forehead* Doh! Did I get sucked in (kudos to evolving) again?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133317 - 12/12/02 02:19 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

OK, I will be generous and give you 16 years to complete the task.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Swami]
    #1133322 - 12/12/02 02:21 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

OK, I will be generous and give you 16 years to complete the task.

Don't take this the wrong way but I just love a man whose focus is so fixated.


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