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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: Swami]
    #771230 -

sorry, I wasn't replying to your pos specifically, Swami, just adding my two cents. I agree, your situation sucks and I don't blame you for what you do now because of past events. You're only human!

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #771500 -

"That is an impossibility. Evolution and genetics always favors survival and procreation. The "brakes" that you talk about come in the form of sickness, disease, starvation, etc. from over population."
---------
Yes, evolution and genetics always favors survival and procreation.
As a species!
The brakes come in many forms. I have heard that sperm counts are falling worldwide.
Too much procreation is not helpful to the ecosystem as you've admitted.
Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.

As for those who say it is a choice, do you remember when you chose to be heterosexual?


--------------------
I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #771570 -

What's a "subconscious choice"?

Chemkid, you don't realize your own homophobia, or do you? From quotes in lisp, to relating homosexuality to RAPE! and CHILD MOLESTATION!! Wow.

And speaking for single straight men everywhere, I hope and pray that all the women out there will show more patience with us sex-minded straight men than Swami has shown with sex-minded gay men. Please come to my party! I'll behave...

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #771729 -

no its not always a choice, I have had gay/lesbian friends who all told me otherwise, they had been attracted to the same sex since childhood. and its not a "mutation" either, it is perfectly natural for a small percentage of the population to be same sex oriented. I understand why you think such a trait would not get passed on with evolution (with the straight people the only ones reproducing) but remember 30+ years ago to be an openly gay person was definitely taboo, most people were in the closet and tried to live "straight" lives, dont forget a little of fire and brimstone religion back then.. I dont know how much research has been done on the subject of gay genetic differences but my opinion is that the determining factor would occur in brain and/or hormonal developments before birth, then it would become apparent to them during later childhood whether they were straight/gay.


--------------------
...
overgrow

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: buttonion]
    #771785 -

Buttion: I never said that being homosexual was morally reprehensible. Nor did I equate it as the same thing as pedophilia etc. I was merely showing how different lifestyles all claim to be genetic when indeed they are not.

As for my whole biologically unviable argument.....again I am not making any judgements as to what is right or wrong for a person. What is moral or immoral. I am speaking strictly from a scientific point of view. That is why I said in the beginning of the post "lets leave religion out of it". Everyone in this discussion is way off topic. I am simply trying to point out that homosexuality is not genetic because evolution doesn't allow for it. If someone wants to be gay then by all means be gay. No gay man ever tried to hurt me so I try to hurt no gay man. This isn't a judgement thread. As for why that lifestyle must be changed: It is obviously not what nature, God, evolution (whatever you dogma be) had intended. This part is so plainly obvious that it should spark some curious thoughts into a gay person's mind: why am I lke this? It isn't genetic so what else could it be? Again.....I am not saying you shouldn't be gay "LETS BE CLEAR ON THIS". In some people's minds I lead a deviant lifestyle because of the drugs I do. I don't claim a genetic predisposition to it however.

Someone else asked when did I choose to be hetero.? You don't choose to be hetero. That is the genetic and biological norm. Heterosexuality isn't a choice. Put that in contrast to homosexuality......that goes agains genetics and evolution and biology so there is something else going on there. This is getting way too long.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: hongomon]
    #771798 -

Hongoman please tell me that you have a more intelligent argument than that. Whenever a straight person speaks out against anything gay then a lot of gays start shouting "homophobe he's a homophobe". This just isn't so. Because someone doesn't agree doesn't make them afraid or closed minded. At least Buttion is giving genuine, intelligent debate. That is what is called for. Take your childish rhetoric to off topic discussions.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think [Re: chemkid]
    #771968 -

In reply to:
I am speaking strictly from a scientific point of view. That is why I said in the beginning of the post "lets leave religion out of it".



Well, chemkid, on a strictly scientific point, as humand, and thus involved in the assumed evolutionary process, we may not know where evolution is leading us... And if it's true that homosexuality is getting more and more "popular", it seems like there's a reason why.

I personally don't know if homosexuality is genetic or not (and I couldn't bother less, indeed), what I really care about is that being homosexual doesn't hurt anybody...

As on the harrasment (spelling?) side, I would ask a straight man:
1) how does it feel being woed from a ugly girl? Is that just as being fancied from a gay man?

2) how do you think a gay girl feels about being fancied from a man?

3) how do you think a gay man might feel being woed from a girl (and vice versa)?

4) does sexuality lead such a big part of your life that it's so important to find some genetic reason to be so?

5) who said heterosexuality is biologically correct and evolutionary desireble?

6) do you really think that being gay means you can't go with women?

In reply to:
This part is so plainly obvious that it should spark some curious thoughts into a gay person's mind: why am I lke this? It isn't genetic so what else could it be?


I thought you were leaving religion and morality out of the topic... and what's that?
How do you assume that gay people never questioned oneself about his/her nature?
You should at least admit this is a bit incoerent...
Whatever your creed may be, people is not allowed to know what's in God's schemes, so who am I to question that?

Sexuality is not a choice, nor an evolutionary drop out... it's simply an OPTION.



--------------------
"Love is the law; love under will..."

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #772024 -

chemkid, I am very stupid. Please explain to me which part of my rhetoric was childish, for I cannot see it. I will repeat the two examples I gave: first, your charicature of a gay man as a "flamer" with an affected lisp. Please be responsible with your every statement here, for this is a sensitive subject, okay?

Second, is your preposterous connection between the "making" of a homosexual and the "making" of a rapist, or a pedophile! What the fuck! Your suggested corelation between these suggests a close link in your mind. Why didn't you suggest a link between a homosexual and a kleptomaniac, or a pathological liar? Why did you choose what you did?

But don't waste time on my post, you've fallen way short answering buttonion's questions, which, as you have pointed out, are genuine, intelligent debate.

Still, since I'm here, I'll respond:

"Someone else asked when did I choose to be hetero.? You don't choose to be hetero. That is the genetic and biological norm. Heterosexuality isn't a choice. Put that in contrast to homosexuality......that goes agains genetics and evolution and biology so there is something else going on there. This is getting way too long."

You cannot avoid circularity with that argument, chemkid. You triply beg questions of genetics, evolution, and biology. You have to understand that most gay men don't choose to be gay. Try to imagine someone, out of boredom, or rebelliousness, or for whatever reason, choosing to go against their sexuality (imagine YOU doing that in ITSELF, go ahead), in particular when that choice would group them with the most stigmatized class in their culture!

Sorry you felt that you would come in and make a few off-the-cuff comments and leave us all wiser.


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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: hongomon]
    #772181 -

Hongomon: I suggest you back and reread who made comments with a lisp. It wasn't I. I have better comment and remarks to make than to randomly poke fun at the very people I am trying to understand.

As for your question "why didn't I suggest a link between a homosexual and a kleptomaniac....." Actually, those examples work as well. Re-read my last few posts. I never equated them as the same thing only that similar lifestyles claim genetics are the driving force. (Why am I repeating myself). You're trying to turn this into a "straight man bashing gay man" post. Reread the original questions. Nothing in there bashes homosexuals in fact I blatantly say "....be proud....". Instead of coming in this post stirring up a fire where there is none and making accusations about me (which if you go back and reread the threads, you'll find it wasn't me who made that remark) try fully understanding what is being discussed here. And if you do that you may just leave here a bit wiser (not just by me but from those engaging in intelligent debate)


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: Swami]
    #772230 -

"I lived in near SF for many years. Most of the gays that I knew were TOTALLY OBSESSED with sex. That was all they talked about and seemed their entire focus. This borders on pathogenic."
-----

I agree. But keep in mind that San Francisco in a gay mecca. If you're looking for gay sex, everyone knows SF is where you want to be. I wouldn't call it representive of the average gay person's life. I'm not saying that's what you're saying BTW, just using it to make a point.

Take a vacation to Rio de Janeiro sometime.
You'll find the same degree of sexual obsession there, only with heterosexuals.


--------------------
I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #772245 -

I have been studying homosexuality for over 30 years and there is much that I could say. Instead here are three words to answer your question:

Predisposition and conditioning.

I have nothing further to say on this subject.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #772259 -

Well I for one don't think chemkid is a homophobe. Unless there's something I missed.
I commend him for his courage and honesty actually.
I've made controversial statements before and been jumped on in the past.
Of course I kicked the crap out of them, but that's a story for another time..

Chemkid, one question I do have though is how you jibe the two following statements:

" Nothing in there bashes homosexuals in fact I blatantly say "....be proud....".

"I believe that homosexuality is (for lack of a better word) a sickness. I compare it to other deviant lifestyles like pedophilia, serial killing, raping of women etc."

You're sick.
Be proud.

"Say it loud, I'm sick and I'm proud!"
I'm sorry but James Brown leapt into my head for a moment!


--------------------
I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #772273 -

I gave my answer to your original question so let?s explore another theme. I?m not quite clear on this:

Homosexuality is a lifestyle that needs to try to be changed by these individuals

I am not saying you shouldn't be gay "LETS BE CLEAR ON THIS".

??? Do you rescind the first comment? I know it is not that hard to nit-pick at others people?s posts and eventually find some sort of contradiction, but I think this is a pretty important idea we are talking about- I see no reason that gays should feel obligated to change their lifestyle.

Like White Widow pointed out, answering the question ?Why should homosexuality be changed by these individuals?? with an appeal to nature/evolution?s ?plan? or God?s plan is untenable (no religion, right?). To say that we should not engage in any behavior that may reduce the odds that we will propagate our genes would eliminate a lot of the American lifestyle. And God?s plan?? there is no point in even arguing this.

What other reasons ?from a scientific point of view? do you have to believe that homosexuality ?needs to try to be changed by these individuals?? Or do you rescind?


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Re: Genetics and homosexuality...the point? [Re: Jellric]
    #772311 -

Encountered nearly the same attitude living in Long Beach and San Diego (which also have large Gay populations), so it is not just limited to SF.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #772487 -

The human genome has finally been mapped (except for the exons) and there is no proof anywhere of homosexuality. It is indeed a choice.
The genes might be mapped, but the functions of all the genes is hardly well known.

It is quite possible that there is a gene (or genes) which confer a predisposition to homosexuality. Your argument using evolution ignores the idea of genes which can be passed down before the carrier dies or may never express themselves in certain individuals (recessive genes). Said genes may also require certain hormonal 'triggers' in utero in order to express themselves.

Even if no 'abnormal' (for lack of a better term) genes are involved, a predisposition to homosexuality may be congenital (a person may be born with it). When a fetus is exposed to different hormones secreted by the mother during development it is possible that these hormones will change the development of the brain. It is known from experiments with animals that administration of hormones during fetal development will affect physical brain development and cause a normally female animal to exhibit male behavior and vice versa.

So, a person may very well be born with a predisposition to homosexuality. How a person responds to this is a matter of choice, but their natural inclinations (urges) aren't. Just as a person predisposed to heterosexuality may choose a life of celibacy, so may a person predisposed to homosexuality choose to live a heterosexual lifestyle (probably because of social pressures and upbringing). I would venture to say this is what has occurred with men who have been married to a woman, have children and then finally 'come out' later in life.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #772844 -

It wasn't you who affected the lisp--Shroomhermit changed your quote. I apologize.

I'm also sorry to jump on you like this, but I really think YOU need to go reread your posts. You constantly jump between "be proud of who you are" and "homosexuals are sick and need to change."

But I'll keep out after this post. I think buttonion's post--the last on page two--was excellent and as yet mostly unanswered.

To go back to your original topic--part of the significance of this debate has to do with gay men and women's legal rights. Two in particular--to marry and to adopt. Whether or not it is a choice is crucial. "Sick" deviants can't claim tax breaks afforded to legally married couples, and they certainly can't take a baby into their home!

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: hongomon]
    #773623 -

Many of my experiances with gay people have also been similar to swami's, although i would still consider having a gay friend if they were cool. (I have never met one that i could feel comfortable hanging around with)

I think that chemkid was just pointing out the connection between socially taboo acts and lifestyles. Restrictions make some people want to do it more. I dont think that it is unreasonable to suggest that some forms of homosexuality may be caused by some type of a psychological disorder. For instance, i know many gays who are bisexual and struggle with the decision of which sex to go with. Sexuality is a major component of the human psyche and it would be foolhearty to totally disregard that fact due to political correctness when discussing the cause of homosexuality. I think that there are many issues behind it and i try not to stereotype, but this is just what i see.


--------------------
:egyptian:

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: Jellric]
    #774627 -

Well Jellric, you ask how I can jibe the two statements...very easily!! I was asked my opinion. Now it is no secret that I disagree with a gay lifestyle. I think it's wrong in all categories: biology, evolution, religion, parental abilities........etc. So, as I was asked my opinion I gave it. Because I disagree with a particular way of life doesn't mean I "bash" that way of life. I don't feel that homosexuals are any less human and should be beaten down in the street. Yes I feel that homosexualtiy is a sickness of sort, but I don't hate gay people because of it. There is a big difference between disapproval and outward hatered and violence. So are gay people even seeking my approval....most definitely not. I was asked so I replied.

Thanks for the support of my opinion and saying I'm not a homophobe (I certainly am not)


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: buttonion]
    #774656 -

Buttonion: You ask if I rescind my first statement......absolutley not. There is a difference in what my opinion is and what I would advise someone to do. I feel that in light of the evidence (in my mind) that gay people should try to reform themselves because it seems to be contrary to everything human in us. However my opinion isn't so high and mighty that I would advise you to change your ways. It is your life/your choice. I simply stated my belief. If I hated someone everytime they disagreed with my opinions or way of thinking then my list of friends would be pretty short. Again...if you're happy with who you are then cool....life is hard enough without being worried about what I think. If you're going to ask my opinion on something, it is only fare to be prepared for something not in line with your opinion.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Genetics and Homosexuality------I don't think so [Re: chemkid]
    #774799 -

I dont require any validation from genetics to tell me that it's okay to be gay. It really isn't relevant to me, and if they ever do find a "gay gene" then good for the geneticist that found it.

I do however find it unfair for you Chemkid, to imply that I ever had a choice in the first place, because if I did, I would most certainly have chosen to be straight, because I know for certain that I wouldn't have had to put up with 1/10th of the bullshit that I've had to put up with through out my life.

I knew I was gay as early as 10 years old (I'm 26 now), but i wound up going into denial about it. 16 years of depression and 3 suicide attempts later, I'm finaly comfortable with who I am. But it shoudnt have been like that, and I blame Society and Religion for what I had to go through.

It makes me sick to think that all that pain was caused by a bunch of people who made it painfully clear to me that i was somehow immoral or sick or evil because of somthing that I had NO CHOICE about.

Well, there goes my $0.02 and my first post to The Shroomery... hope i gave you all somthing to think about.

Oh, and by the way. To those of you straight people who talked about being hassled by the vultures, I'm sorry if any of you were made uncomfortable, or scarred as a result of your experiance. I don't like guys who pull that shit either, and I'm even made uncomfortable by them. There is WAAAAAAAAY more to life than sex.

Soulecho

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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