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homosexuality
    #1125687 -

no flames please,

i would like to get your honest opinion on this subject.

what do you think of it, why do you think people turn gay?


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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1125697 -

I don't really care, although I tend to find gay guys annoying...  And raging bull dykes make me uncomfortable...  I don't know why people are gay, I imagine a lot are just born that way, others may have been abused, etc.

I don't care what people do in their own homes, I just don't wanna be hit on by some dude.  :tongue: 


--------------------
Alice came to a fork in the road.  "Which road do I take?" she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" responded the Cheshire cat.
"I don't know," Alice answered.
"Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."
~Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1125707 -

Too many rats in a cage....

I think homosex is unbalanced. I don't know about right or wrong with the deal just unbalanced. Yin/Yang, positive/negative, we live in a dualistic world.


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1125853 -

what do you think of it, why do you think people turn gay?

They don't. Some people are gay.

I imagine a lot are just born that way, others may have been abused, etc.
I don't care what people do in their own homes, I just don't wanna be hit on by some dude.

I don't think it has anything to do with being abused, that's just a homophobic point of view. You fear people who are different and you don't want to accept that it's perfectly normal to be gay so you come up with an explanation that involves them being fuck ups. I think it's perfectly natural. There was a post somewhere on this forum I read the other day talking about a kind of baboon or something that has a high rate of homosexuality, so I don't buy that it's another way society corrupts people. Also I know at least two people with lesbian mothers, so it's not really a natural form of population control is it? Not to mention why would Canadians subconciously move towards controlling population density when there are so few people in this huge country? Some people have blonde hair and some have brown hair and that's that.

Last statistic I heard is that 1 in 20 people are gay.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1125859 -

The vast majority of the evidence points to it being something biological, meaning they are born that way. Some people have green eyes, some people are seven feet tall, others are attracted to their own sex.

There's nothing wrong with it. Nothing whatsoever. Some people are bigots though.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1125866 -

I posted this in a different thread, someone asked why it's called 'homophobia':

For some people, it really seems like a phobia. Some people get extremely freaked out when they're around gay people, they flip out if a gay guy hits on them. The same people might have no problem politely brushing off an unattractive girl, but they feel the need to get really angry, sometimes even violent when the would-be suitor is gay. I'm not so sure if this is a phobia of gay people, or a phobia of being perceived as gay by their peers. Maybe they believe that if they don't frighten away the gay guy, and act as straight as possible, they might be brainwashed into actually being gay. I don't know for sure how their actions can be explained, but there's definately some irrational fear there.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1125900 -

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I really don't believe in homosexuality. There aren't any other animals having same-sex-sex...

I think some dudes who couldn't get any women got horney and just resorted to... "dating" eachother as a sort of last resort. Some people thought it was a great idea, I guess, so BOOM gays everywhere.

That being said, honestly I don't care if somebody's gay as long as they're not trying to force themselves upon me or something... hey as long as you're enjoying whatever lifestyle you're living, do whatever you want :-D I know several bi and gay people and they seem just as normal (other than their sexual "preference") as anybody else I know.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Strumpling]
    #1125915 -


Edited by Morrowind (12/09/02 05:54 PM)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Strumpling]
    #1125925 -

Humans are hardly the only animal that has a homosexual population. It occurs all throughout nature. I think they're just born that way, as some people have said earlier. It's no different than eye color variation.

Edited by Poogi (12/09/02 05:57 PM)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1125951 -

Personally I think it has something to do with the shift in consciousness that humanity has undergone in the past 50 years... I think that more and more people are being born "in the middle" so to speak... You get more feminine males and more masculine females (not just physically); more of a gender-less race of people because the qualities of each gender are becoming more outwardly expressed and accepted in the opposite one. And I think that this shift in consciousness combined with a still-existant prejudiced society causes people to become confused about their sexuality. :smile:

Or maybe it isn't as deep as that... :wink: I mean, I've seen animals turn gay when placed in environments where the only other animals are of the same sex. So homosexuality certainly isn't "un-natural", or limited to human beings. 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Dogomush]
    #1125952 -

Quote:

I don't think it has anything to do with being abused, that's just a homophobic point of view



I know people are just gay, but you have to admit that there are some people out there who are gay because of abuse.  Like I say, I don't give a rats ass either way, but it happens.

Quote:

You fear people who are different and you don't want to accept that it's perfectly normal to be gay so you come up with an explanation that involves them being fuck ups.



Dag, yo!  Go easy...  I'm not homophobic, I think it's fine if someones gay.  I don't think they're fuck ups, but it's not like being gay is exactly the status quo...  Like you say 1 in 20 people, that leaves 19 straight people in the room.  I'm not looking for human-rights activist of the year here, just don't be so quick to paint me as homophobic and unaccepting from a 2 sentence post.  :tongue:   


--------------------
Alice came to a fork in the road.  "Which road do I take?" she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" responded the Cheshire cat.
"I don't know," Alice answered.
"Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."
~Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1125960 -

I am gay myself, and I just want to say that homosexuality is not a choice. 
At least for me it isn't.

I would give anything to not be gay.  Well, not anything, but I really wish that I wasn't.  It's hard to understand unless you are gay yourself, but living life as a gay person is very hard.  I can't imagine anyone actually choosing this lifestyle.  I'm sure that being gay these days is a little better than it used to be (because it is a lot more accepted), but it can still make life a living hell sometimes.

I am not sure what has made me gay, though.  As I look back on my life, there are a lot of personal experiences that could have made me that way.  Or perhaps I was always gay to begin with.  I have been attracted to men for as long as I can remember.  I still had girlfriends when I was younger, but I would have rather been with another male.

Because of the fact that I've known I was gay since I was very young, I am inclined to say it is something genetic.  Another theory that I have is that it is not caused by genes necessarily, but by something that happens during development in the womb. 

In some species of reptiles, the actual sex of the hatchlings is determined by the temperature that the eggs are incubated at.  I've also learned that temperature and other stimuli have a lot to do with the release of certain hormones during the development of a human fetus.  Perhaps if conditions are not quite right for some reason, the fetus will not get all of the hormones (or the correct amount of hormones) that it is supposed to, thus making it have hormonal imbalances later in life and possibly causing homosexuality.

The only thing I am sure of, though, is that it is not a choice.  I feel that discrimination against gay people is just as bad as discrimination against someone because of their race or ethnicity because these are all things that are beyond their control.  If you don't like gay people, stay away from them, but don't hate without reason. 

That's all! :smile:

-RebelSteve

EDIT:  Here is a good thread from a while back about genetics and homosexuality.


--------------------
Namaste.

Edited by RebelSteve33 (12/09/02 06:10 PM)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1125967 -

the hypothalimus ( spelling? ) of homosexuals is greatly enlarged- but the size change is a disorder thing. Many people have chemical imbalances which cause the enlargement, and it is easily corrected in some cases

These "disorders" and "imbalances" are just things that disagree with pre-accepted boundaries. It's okay to evolve.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1125998 -

I definitely believe that the vast majority of homosexuals are born gay. Not all, but I think gayness does happen naturally. I don't believe it is immoral, or that being gay makes one any less than being straight. I've always felt this way, even though I sometimes call people fag or gay as an insult. That is a bad habit and I really shouldn't do it. My parents have friends who I've known my life who I just found out were gay in the last few years. And knowing them first as a person, and then as a homosexual really opened my eyes to the fact that all the bullshit people spout about gays is just that, bullshit.

BTW, Strumpling, you are wrong, homosexuality does exist in the animal kingdom. So try again. It is said that all bigotry is a product of ignorant hatred.

On another note though, there really is a small minority of people who act like they are gay but aren't (or something). They come off as exageratting the way they talk in a really, um, GAY way. And they wear turtlenecks and work at the Gap and sit around in bakeries chain smoking cigarettes and being depressed. No seriously though, some people just come off as exageratting their gayness to such an extent that it makes me wonder if they are actually gay or if it is some big facade and statement they are trying to make. These are the gay people who drive me nuts.

And people who quote the bible as being against gays are hypoctirical morons. They are the kind of people who take clips of the bible and raise them up and totally ignore other parts. Or hold up parts when it is convenient and ignore the same parts when it's convenient.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Strumpling]
    #1126009 -

"There aren't any other animals having same-sex-sex..."

Making up facts isn't a valid argument. Homosexuality has been documented in tons of other animals.

"I think some dudes who couldn't get any women got horney and just resorted to... "dating" eachother as a sort of last resort. Some people thought it was a great idea, I guess, so BOOM gays everywhere."

If this were true, most gay men would be hideously ugly introverts. Lots of them are attractive, have female friends (many even have girlfriends for a while before coming to terms with their homosexuality), and very outgoing. If they wanted to, I'm sure they could get girls.

Why would people think it was a great idea? That's ridiculous.

I'm pretty damn sure I didn't have a choice in being straight. Women look attractive to me, men don't. All the gay guys I've talked to tell me the same thing, vice versa.

There's also lots of evidence linking various other biological traits with homosexuality. Finger length, etc...

A lot of gay men talk in a different voice. You know exactly what I'm talking about here. Do you think that they just decide to speak in a different voice once they change their mind and start dating guys?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1126036 -

A lot of gay men talk in a different voice. You know exactly what I'm talking about here. Do you think that they just decide to speak in a different voice once they change their mind and start dating guys?

This is the case with me, and it is another reason why I feel that homosexuality is something biological. I hate having a "gay" voice because it obviously makes people suspect me of being gay. If I could change my voice I would, but your voice is your voice and there isn't much you can do!




--------------------
Namaste.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1126038 -

There is little proof on either side of the arguement on whether or not people choose to be gay.

I believe it is a choice, just because I can't fathom a gene that would cause you to life the opposite sex. But I could be wrong.

Regardless of the cause, I really don't care. I grew up with people calling each other "fags" and "queers" and whatnot, and even came to the point where I thought I hated all gays. Turns out, when it really comes down to it, I can't hate someone because of some preferance they have - one of my best friends is a very obvious closet queer.

The only people, it seems, who care if someone chooses to be gay and actually make sexuality an issue, are some of the fundamentalist Christians who have a "duty" to save us all and the homosexual rights groups

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Anonymous]
    #1126156 -

"I can't fathom a gene that would cause you to life the opposite sex."

You can't? Why not? It's hardly implausible.

"There is little proof on either side of the arguement on whether or not people choose to be gay."

There's a difference between proof and evidence. There's lots of evidence supporting the idea that it's not a choice. There isn't any to back up the idea that it is a choice.

There are a wide variety of studies linking homosexuality to different phyisical traits. There's the 'voice', there's the fact that the vast majority of gay people say that they had no choice.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1126229 -

Homosexuality is definitely a congenital condition; you are either born with it, or you aren't.

Think about it... why would anyone want to be gay? Even if you did, how could you reprogram your brain to respond to different stimuli? It'd be impossible, I'd imagine, for most people. So unless you're a believer in a homosexual conspiracy theory or some such nonsense, turning gay at will is pretty much impossible.

As for how I react to gays... well, I'd take being hit on by a (gay) guy as a compliment, although I would have no interest whatsoever. I mean, if someone thinks you're good-looking, wouldn't you be happy? Although, this is what I suppose... I've never been hit on by a gay man. It's possible I could be repulsed or creeped out by it.

I have a gay friend, and I'm not a bleeding heart liberal, either. He's pretty fruity, wearing all sorts of clothes that would get you beat up on mean streets, but he never openly states he's gay, and I'm cool with it. He understands the essential axiom that people don't need to scream 'I'm gay and I'm proud' to feel secure in their sexuality.

I have no qualms with gays. They're gay; they can't help it. Let's treat them with the respect that any human being deserves.


--------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret I have was that I didn't study Latin harder in school so I could converse with those people."
- J. Danforth Quayle

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1126267 -

My thoughts on gayity:

I don't care whether homosexuality is biological or a choice, If someones gay its cool with me. I actually think it is biological, cause I have a gay cat named Stimpy, hell he even looks gay, anyways we've had bunches of cats runnin around the house, and Stimpy always bangs the boys.  :grin: Hes my favorite cat, i couldnt be more proud of him. Just by the way he walks and such, friends have always wondered if he were gay,

I've always wondered if the extreme homophobes were gay themselves, ever seen that movie American Beauty?  :blush: :blush: :blush:

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1126280 -

LOL

That reminds me of an episode of South Park... Big Gay Al's Big Gay Animal House. :laugh:


--------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret I have was that I didn't study Latin harder in school so I could converse with those people."
- J. Danforth Quayle

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Gunboat]
    #1126291 -

Big Gay Al's Big Gay Boat Ride, actually.  :tongue: 

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Gunboat]
    #1126333 -

I've been hit on by two gay men. One of them creeped me out, the other didn't.

The first one was an older guy who came into the place I worked at, and he was a pretty interesting guy, and fun to chat with. He was also extremely alcoholic. He came in all drunk and proceeded to hit on me HARD. It made me really uncomfortable.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1126427 -

I posted something like this in another thread-

The first time I took shrooms, I looked in the mirrior and noticed I was taking on feminine characteristics and features.

Maybe this has something to do with Jungs' animus and anima and the repression of those opposite characteristics. I really don't know because I'm not gay nor do I know many people who are gay.

One night my roomate invited a friend over and we all got drunk. This friend of his was all over me and I just thought he was a 'touchy' guy, but I was later informed that he was gay. I suppose I kinda knew it and just ignored it, so I must not HATE gay people.

I don't mind them as long as they don't act extremely gay (like stated above). It's just their preference and I respect that. Just like someone who likes onions, I shouldn't hate them just because I don't like onions.

I can't really say if it's in the genes or what. I have no proof either way.  :tongue: 


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1126459 -

In reply to:

why do you think people turn gay?


One study has shown that 20% of homosexuals were born gay, the other 80% were sucked into it.

"Being bisexual immediately doubles your chances of a date on a Saturday night."
- Woody Allen


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Evolving]
    #1126475 -

I think that most gays do become gay (that is, if it has been proven that genes can cause homosexuality).

Do any of you think that souls have a gender when not in a physical body?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Edited by Murex (12/09/02 08:31 PM)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1126534 -

I think theres just as strong a possibility that it has to do with imprinting(at a young age), as the possibility that it is caused by genetics. Either way I don't think people choose and I don't think it's something you should judge people by.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1126587 -

I really don't like the guys that are all femenine and shit. No problem with gays though. who knows why they turn outhat way. Some people are chemically the opposite sex.


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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1126819 -

"Making up facts isn't a valid argument."

Obviously I wouldn't just make something up dude.... looks like I trusted a source in the past that I should have verified.. sheesh - I'd tell you if I were making something up.

I thought it went something like this: Same-sex behavior DOES exist in the animal kingdom. From what I'd read, usually, it's either playful antics, or dominance behavior to assert hierarchy. For one male to hop on another male is a very powerful way to communicate his higher position in the "pecking order" of the community. But if you bring in a female in heat, suddenly the male-male behavior is abandoned in favor of the female.

kinda like prison I guess.. haven't been there tho lol

"A lot of gay men talk in a different voice. You know exactly what I'm talking about here. Do you think that they just decide to speak in a different voice once they change their mind and start dating guys?"

Well actually that has occured to me - it seems this kind of talking would be kind of a way to express your sexuality without having to walk around telling everybody you're a homosexual. But of course, I've only verified that with one gay guy so thats certainly heresay as well

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
So you got that lisp, Steve? Do you ever emphasize it if you're wondering about some new dude you just met?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Strumpling]
    #1126875 -

I read somewhere that the brain's gender identity isn't fixed until right after birth. The hormones that a fetus is exposed to can masculinize or feminize their brain, and cause homosexuality. Makes sense to me.

Someone mentioned finger-length being linked to homosexuality, that seems to be pretty accurate too. Just wondering, RebelSteve, which finger is longer, your index or ring finger? They say that when a fetus is exposed to a high testosterone to estrogen ratio, their index finger is shorter than their ring finger, and vice versa. So if your index finger is longer than your ring finger, it would support this theory.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1127109 -

Everytime a moderator sees a huge jump in the post rate on a subject a little light goes off and they check to see if it is a flame war. I was relieved to see how well the participants in this thread have done so far and again proud to moderate such a great group of people. You guys make my job too easy.

I have studied the phenomenon of homosexuality for a long time and have reached the conclusion that it is a combination of nature/nurture. I have had many gay friends including my best man at my wedding. That was in 1975 when it wasn't "cool to be gay".

I am not a homophobe. In fact, I do not like the title because it is preferential. It is a derogatory statement, by definition, that people who do not like homosexuals are afraid of them or afraid of homosexuality. That is a pretty one-sided view.

As far as being hit on is concerned there are right ways and wrong ways. I would not mind it if a man found me attractive and let me know it. But if someone tried to force themselves on me they would quickly find force being met by a counter force. I have been in both circumstances.

Cheers,

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Re: homosexuality [Re: teardrop]
    #1127245 -

I read somewhere that the brain's gender identity isn't fixed until right after birth.

interesting, that is sort of like how your body isn't determined until late in the development stage, as in the x x and xy chromosomes, unless thats what your were talking about...

anyhow, i believe that perhaps being attracted to the same sex is a disorder, much like any other disorder, which can be compaired to depression which is called a disorder, which is also referred to as having a disease.

as rebelsteve stated, and i know most the gay people that i know do not choose to be, and wish they were not. that alone should be enough to convince that there is more than meets the eye here. if they were born gay. then from the begining, being gay would be natural already for them.

i believe the majority of gays were born like that, i believe that people were turned gay due to evironmental settings, i believe people turn gay by choice.

i think that the differentials in being homosexual should be adressed as seperate issues. like (A,B,C) that way they could be more definely talked about. kinda like other disorders/diseases have the same name, different class.

is it really natural tho, if it were genetics, wouldn't it be un-natural because it allowed an abnormalty to happen in developement. it only 'seems' natural to us because it is more widely accepted, not as a disorder, but as a way of life. and it is a way of life, but the point is whether they actually chose to or not.

thoughts?


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Re: homosexuality [Re: Evolving]
    #1127256 -

"One study has shown that 20% of homosexuals were born gay, the other 80% were sucked into it."

I don't see how you could accurately do a study like that, especially considering we have no clues about the intricacies about how being gay works.



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1127263 -

So if RebelSteve never wanted to be gay because it is a brain disorder, you think it would be ok for him to get his brain fixed if we had a way to do so?

I think it very well could be a disorder, but I think most won't accept this view even if it was proven true.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: homosexuality [Re: Llamanose]
    #1127311 -

I know people are just gay, but you have to admit that there are some people out there who are gay because of abuse.
Hmmm.. well, the reason I would call this kind of statement homophobic is because you seem to think that gays are born that way or abused into it. What about becoming gay through an experience like.. I don't know.. a flashing light during the development of area X in your brain while you were a baby being held by your loving mother? Why does one have to be fucked with to become gay? Like you said you may not have any problem with gays but when you look at them you pity them for being abused when they were children, as if they deserve sympathy. To me that's a negative view of homosexuals, so I called it homophobic. See what I mean?

People have been pointing out that animals exhibit homosexual behaviour, and others have said that it doesn't count, that it's mostly because of a dominance thing. I would argue that lots of human sex is a dominance thing, in a way. Joe goes to a club, meets Sally, and they go home together to have sex. They both feel better about themselves because someone thinks that they are atractive. They tell their friends about it and so they climb the social ladder, in their heads and in the world.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Murex]
    #1127315 -

absolutely,

if i were gay, and didn't want to be, wouldn't i feel sick, as in having a mental sickness. i would want a cure or something that would make me not same sex attracted. thats what im talking about, if they were labled, you would be talking about A, because they were born with it, and could possibly have somewayto treat it.

disorder A: would be like a chemical imbalance, treated by meds and a therapist
disorder B: would be like an emotional type disorder, treated by a therapist
disorder C: not so much a disorder, but a life style choice, which can be un-chose if truly desired.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Anonymous]
    #1127409 -

People don't choose to be gay. THey do choose to have sex with other people of the same sex.

People can't choose what the ARE, just what they DO.

I believe in some cases it's biological, and in some cases it's psychological with no biological basis.

People also get caught up in "genetics". They think that everything biological is caused by genes. All genes do is code proteins, there is LOT of leeway in what the finished product will be. Take hermaphrodites for example, they are genetically one sex, but they have physical traits of another.

All mamalian embrios start out FEMALE.

Female is the default sex. Males have genes that normaly produce hormones that turn the default female embrionic body into a male body.

All you guys, you know that "seam" you have going down the middle of your scrotum? That is your vagina. It grew shut while you were an embrio.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

Edited by Baby_Hitler (12/10/02 12:37 AM)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1127647 -

People can't choose what the ARE, just what they DO

That is a very good, concise point!

BTW, I am not sure if I'd take the pill or not. I probably would, though.


--------------------
Namaste.

Edited by RebelSteve33 (12/10/02 01:47 AM)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1127682 -

All you guys, you know that "seam" you have going down the middle of your scrotum? That is your vagina. It grew shut while you were an embrio.
Ugh! CHRIST I don't want to think of any part of my body as a "seam." It makes me feel like one day that part of me will tear open and another being will poke its head through and then drop out from inside of me onto the floor! SICK!

BTW I was gonna have a HUGE vagina!

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1127730 -

Genetically speaking it is very unlikely that this is the root of homosexuality. The entire human genome has finally been mapped (except for the exons) and nothing has remotely pointed in this direction (although there are still many genes whose functions are unknown, it still does not appear to be genetic) a more like reason is one of early developmental hormone release. The male form is actually an imposition onto the female form. Every fetus starts as a female form. Eventually a huge increase in testosterone begins developement of the male sex organs. This is the single most important difference between the X and Y chromosome....otherwise they are very similar (there are other notable differences).

So, any problem with the production, release, or regulation of testosterone can greatly affect the fetus.

Are gays born that way......likely.......is it genetic.....unlikely (although nothing is proven conclusively yet)


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1128302 -

People can't choose what the ARE, just what they DO.

that is a point i was trying to make, that condition C is choosing of the lifestyle,
they may not be psychologically gay to begin with, but they chose to have same sex relations.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: teardrop]
    #1128314 -

They say that when a fetus is exposed to a high testosterone to estrogen ratio, their index finger is shorter than their ring finger, and vice versa.

That's very interesting... my ring finger is slightly longer than my index finger, but it's so slight that they look the same size. Also, I accept and try to nurture the female aspects inside me, or the anima as Jung would say... So some would probably view me as being more "soft" than the average male. But I'm not gay... at least not yet.  :smile: 


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: homosexuality [Re: chemkid]
    #1128318 -

"Genetically speaking it is very unlikely that this is the root of homosexuality. The entire human genome has finally been mapped (except for the exons) and nothing has remotely pointed in this direction (although there are still many genes whose functions are unknown, it still does not appear to be genetic)"

ArrrrGgh! It's posts like this that piss me off. The entire human genome has been mapped, yes. But we have no fucking clue what 99.99999999999999999999999999% of it is for. We don't know what is and what isn't genetic. There have been inconclusive studies linking genes to homosexuality.

This is pseudoscience at it's best. Use scientific terminology, act as if you know what you're talking about, but really just posting complete gibberish.

You raise a valid point about it not being genetic, but biological, but you're not backing it up with any real facts.

"Eventually a huge increase in testosterone begins developement of the male sex organs. This is the single most important difference between the X and Y chromosome"

That's not correct at all either. X and Y are not female and male. Females have two X's, males have an X and a Y.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1128321 -

"Take hermaphrodites for example, they are genetically one sex, but they have physical traits of another."

Arrrgh!
Not genetically! Genes don't determine sex! They could cause a change in development that would lead to different sexuality.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Edited by Phluck (12/10/02 09:46 AM)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Murex]
    #1128325 -

"I think it very well could be a disorder, but I think most won't accept this view even if it was proven true. "

'Disorder' is just a view, it can't be "proven true". It's only a disorder if it causes problems. If being gay were totally acceptable in our society, I'm sure RebelSteve would have no problems with being gay, and there would be no reason to consider it a disorder.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Evolving]
    #1128330 -

One study has shown that 20% of homosexuals were born gay, the other 80% were sucked into it.

I knew a gay man that was born in Boston and reared in San Francisco. He later moved to Oakland to get a little color in his cheeks.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1128350 -

Everytime a moderator sees a huge jump in the post rate on a subject a little light goes off and they check to see if it is a flame war.

Do you sit behind a huge panel of lights and gauges like a nuclear power plant control room balancing levels to prevent an emotional meltdown?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1128402 -

In reply to:

"One study has shown that 20% of homosexuals were born gay, the other 80% were sucked into it."

I don't see how you could accurately do a study like that, especially considering we have no clues about the intricacies about how being gay works.


Perhaps my humor is a little too dry for most people. Swami was the first one to display the understanding that this was a joke (I thought the Woody Allen quote would have tipped more people off).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Swami]
    #1128406 -

In reply to:

I knew a gay man that was born in Boston and reared in San Francisco. He later moved to Oakland to get a little color in his cheeks.


He he he, I bolded some words so maybe someone else can get the joke.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Evolving]
    #1128423 -

There is a bill in Congress to legalize bi-sexuality. After much discussion, it appears the vote could go either way...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Swami]
    #1128442 -

LOL :grin:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1128481 -

OK Phluck I will speak clearly and slowly for you.....it seems reading comprehension is another area where you should be concerned, not just sexuality.

ArrrrGgh! It's posts like this that piss me off. The entire human genome has been mapped, yes. But we have no fucking clue what 99.99999999999999999999999999% of it is for

Wow that is exactly what I just said in the paragraph you replied to, However your estimate of 99.99% of the genes being unknown is inaccurate.

You say I have not backed up my statement with any facts....did you read anything I wrote? I used many facts. If you read a book on genetics, biochemistry, or biology you will find my statements hold their weight.

That's not correct at all either. X and Y are not female and male. Females have two X's, males have an X and a Y.

I never said that 'X' was female and 'Y' was male....did you pull that one from the air? I was stating the major difference between an X chromosome and a Y chromosome so that in the event they come together you can see how the two different sexes are formed.....namely.....hormonal.

You need to go and evaluate who is speaking gibberish. I clearly listed in parentheses when there was still some debate.

READING IS PHUNDYMENTAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1128482 -

Is there a gene that makes one wear a black leather vest over bare skin along with chains, grow a drooping mustache, wear sunglasses at night, a funky captain's hat and to hang out in bars with names like "The Arena" that play old disco?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Evolving]
    #1128494 -

I got the "sucked" joke, but I figured that you were also trying to quote some fact.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: chemkid]
    #1128503 -

"If you read a book on genetics, biochemistry, or biology you will find my statements hold their weight."

Not if you read the whole book. There is no reason to believe that a homosexuality gene is implausible. None.

"However your estimate of 99.99% of the genes being unknown is inaccurate."

Is it? What would be more accurate?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1128561 -

I think your are confusing implausible with impossible.

It's not very plausible that it is genetic......but still possible. I have no problem stating as much, but many studies have been done to no avail.

Why is it so important to you that it be genetic? Whether it is genetic, hormonal, a choice, brain damage, or the gay fairy made it that way........what does it matter?

Suffice to say--homosexuality exists and unfortunately so does hatred for it. I see no point in getting upset of the cause however.

If it is found to be genetic I wouldn't be in the least bit shocked....if it is found to be hormonal I wouldn't be in the least bit shocked. I am trying to inform only on recent findings. In the end.....I don't really care what the cause is!!!!


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Swami]
    #1128582 -

Do you sit behind a huge panel of lights and gauges like a nuclear power plant control room balancing levels to prevent an emotional meltdown?

Well, sorta. It is a primary concern of mine that people be civil towards one another in this forum. I have no problem with people attacking ideas even violently attacking them as long as the attack is against the idea and not the person. When that happens emotion clouds reason and we get nowhere.

Of course you weren't the first to get Evolving's joke. I got it and laughed as others tried to find real meaning in it.

What I find interesting is the intensity with which some of the members argue about this issue. That always means they have some sort of vested interest in the outcome. The ego is in full bloom when that happens.

Cheers,

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Re: homosexuality [Re: chemkid]
    #1128710 -

"It's not very plausible that it is genetic"

You keep saying that, but you haven't really backed it up with anything other than "it doesn't seem plausible to me". Why is it not plausible?

I'm not saying that it is or isn't genetic. I think it's just as likely that it is genetic as it is likely that it's some other biological cause.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Swami]
    #1128859 -

i dunno, but woof!  send him my way and i'll assure he receives some season's beatings  :cool: :blush: :cool:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1128878 -

I think gays should be shot...

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Fed911]
    #1128987 -

do you have any particular reasoning or logic behind your claim that "gays should be shot," fed911?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Strumpling]
    #1129076 -

I think maybe it was meant to be a joke.

He's a comedic genius.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1129290 -

In reply to:

Arrrgh!
Not genetically! Genes don't determine sex! They could cause a change in development that would lead to different sexuality.



I guess by your definition then genes don't determine whether an organism is a human, or a billie goat, or a banana.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Fed911]
    #1129300 -

round up those beers, steers, and queers, and you can shoot it all over me, cowboy. yippy yo hi yay, pard'ner :grin:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1129363 -

What I find interesting is the intensity with which some of the members argue about this issue. That always means they have some sort of vested interest in the outcome. The ego is in full bloom when that happens.

It's good to have a monator like you here then Mr. Mushrooms. I like the way you think.

:wink:  :wink: :wink:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Edited by Murex (12/10/02 03:08 PM)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1129585 -

Um. They do. They don't determine sex though, that's determined in the womb.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Murex]
    #1129611 -

Here here... much praise....


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1129637 -

>>Um. They do. They don't determine sex though, that's determined in the womb.

Sex is determined by hormones that are made by proteins that are encoded by genes.

Normaly XX results in a female, and XY results in a male. The genes are the main controlling factor.

That's what I meant by "genetically one sex"

"genetically male" means about as much as "hypotherically feasable".


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1129679 -

Auto-Summary
This article explores the often overlooked presence of queer men in nature-based and Pagan religions, challenging the notion that these faiths are inherently tolerant. It highlights how queer men have historically been marginalized or forced to conform within these traditions, despite historical evidence of queer figures as shamans and priests. The piece introduces the Minoan Brotherhood, a men's ritual Witchcraft tradition founded to provide a safe space for gay and bisexual men. It emphasizes that queer Gods have been with humanity since ancient times, with many deities possessing gender-variant or homoerotic characteristics. The author concludes that the existence of queer Gods and the necessity of queer men in these traditions are proof that queer consciousness is deeply rooted in human spirituality.

Here is an article that was published in Circle magazine by a man I once shared home and bed (on occasion) with. Though I don't take much pleasure in thinking about how our friendship ended, I'm grateful for the inspirational perspective on gaeity he shared, in which for some it is not only an issue of nature/nurture, but a transcendental matter of heritage and birthright of one's Self.


Dear Gods! Queer Gods?!

Few would argue with the statement that gay, bi, and
transgender men have had to struggle for acceptance
within the mainstream religions of the world. However,
some folks might be surprised to learn that queer men
have not always had an easy time of it in today’s nature-
based and Pagan religions, despite the reputation of
those faiths as reservoirs of tolerance and progressive
values. Indeed, up until fairly recent times, queer men
were virtually shut out of paths such as Traditional
Witchcraft, or else were forced to subsume their
identities and play roles that did not honor their own
unique threads in the warp and weft of Creation’s
tapestry.

Like the mainstream religions, the paths of Witchcraft,
Paganism and Nature Spirituality have sometimes been
conflicted when trying to fit their queer brethren into
the mythos and the magick that make up their
worldviews. Some Priest/esses have gone so far as to
say that, because they do not participate in the
creation of life, queer men have no place in ritual or
myth. Such reasoning appears to be breathtakingly
myopic at best when compared to the overwhelming
documentation of queer men as shamans and priests
throughout time and across cultures. A listing of the
many Gods Who have gender-variant and/or homoerotic
stories and imagery associated with Them includes the
likes of Zeus, Dionysos, Hermes, Coyote, Tammuz, Set,
Oshumare, Apollo, Loki, Skanda, Freyr, Xolotl, and
Shango. An examination of the mythologies surrounding
these Gods (and many others) -- the collected artwork,
the surviving writings, and even the criticisms of
successor faiths -- leads one to an incontrovertible
conclusion. Most Gods are queer Gods.

Let’s face it. If your God abducts beautiful young men
to share his bed (to the consternation of His Goddess
wife), that’s queer. If your God slugs down entheogenic
brews, dances ecstatically, and makes His rounds through
every man and woman in the crowd like a switch-hitting
social butterfly, that’s pretty queer. And if your God
changes into female clothing or takes on a female form
in order to have sex with another God, AND becomes
pregnant to boot – well, that’s real queer! In this
sense, queer Gods, and the men who have served Them,
have been with mankind since the dawn of time.

Traditions have come into existence in the last several
decades to honor this thread of queer consciousness and
experience. These have included the Minoan Brotherhood
in 1975 and the Radical Faeries in 1977. The Minoan
Brotherhood is a men’s ritual Witchcraft Tradition
founded by Gardnerian and Welsh Elder and classical
scholar Eddie Buczynski. Its goal is to provide a safe
and sacred place for gay and bisexual men, who were
often excluded from Traditionalist covens, to work
Witchcraft. The Deities of the Minoan Brotherhood are
the Great Mother, Rhea, and Her Divine Son, Asterion.

Asterion is known as The Starry One. He is the Bull of
Heaven, whose black hide is mottled with the innumerable
stars of the Universe. He is both the Son and consort
of Rhea. In the Minoan Brotherhood, Asterion is the
patron of men-loving men. He is both brother and
lover. To Minoan initiates, when one looks into the
eyes of one’s lover, one is looking into the eyes of
Asterion. And the reflection of oneself in those same
eyes is also the reflection of Asterion, and so on in an
infinite progression of love. The tide of passion that
sweeps through a queer man, whether on a dance floor, in
a civil rights march, or during the frenzied coupling in
bed, is the pounding heartbeat of Asterion. His bellow
is the groan of Life incarnate. His stamping hooves are
the pulse of tide and time. In His vegetal aspects, He
is equivalent to Dionysos and other dying and rising
Gods of the earth. His is the dance of eternity, the
visionary ecstasy, the nurturing calm of easy strength,
the rest before renewal, and the humor of it all. A Son
both devoted and divine, Asterion is proof that the Gods
manifest Themselves as necessary to preserve and protect
that which is necessary for the wellbeing of Their
people.

Ultimately, it does not matter whether one believes that
man made the Gods, or the Gods made man. If the former,
then the myths associated with the Gods reflect the vein
of queer consciousness that runs through the human
psyche. Their same-sex love affairs, gender-bending,
and periodic scrambling of the social order reflects
this queer energy in the mytho-poetic pool of the human
soul. If the latter, then the Creator-Gods have within
Them the Divine spark of this queer consciousness, for
They are the Makers of the Universe and They are the
furnace in which all souls are forged, both queer and
not. The origin of every person on Earth began in this
furnace, with the fusion of like atomic nuclei in the
hearts of long-dead stars. Therefore, may it be said
that like cleaving to like is a matter of heritage, not
heresy. We are all Starry Ones. Blessed be.


Further Reading

Conner, Randy P.; Blossom of Bone: Reclaiming the
Connections between Homoeroticism and the Sacred. Harper
Collins, San Francisco, 1993. ISBN 0-06-250257-3

Conner, Randy, et al.; Cassell's Encyclopedia of Queer
Myth, Symbol and Spirit. Cassell, London, 1997. ISBN 0-
304-33760-9

Evans, Arthur; Witchcraft and the Gay Counterculture.
Fag Rag Books, Boston, 1978. ISBN 0-915480-01-8

Evans, Arthur; The God of Ecstasy: Sex-Roles and the
Madness of Dionysos. St. Martin's Press, New York, 1988.
ISBN 0-312-01033-8

Roscoe, Will; Queer Spirits, A Gay Men's Myth Book.
Beacon Press, Boston, 1995. ISBN 0-8070-7939-1



Garan du is a High Priest in the Minoan Brotherhood and
co-founder and co-facilitator of The Green Faerie Grove
in Columbus, Ohio. He has presented workshops on queer
spirituality at PSG since 2000 CE.
www.greenfaeriegrove.org

Leap of Faith
(c) 2002 Garan du

O Asterion!
My God!
Great Bull of Heaven
Whose stride spans infinities.
I meet Your steady gaze,
I grasp Your shining horns
And leap
And tumble, fumbling
Riding across the rumbling Cosmos
Of Your star-spattered back
Till finally
Lungs burning
Legs aching
Sight fading
A last
Gasp!
And shuddering I fling myself
Up
And
Away
Into the waiting arms of
My catcher
My brother
My lover
My God.
Asterion.



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1133950 -

Most people are heterosexual, some are homosexual. Who cares? Why's it such a big deal?


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1133964 -

I don't think that people generally "turn" gay so much as they "realize" that they're gay. I had a gay friend in High School who used to date girls, but at some point had some sort of revelation that he was gay. I can't get in his mind, so I can't figure out how he got to that point, but my guess would be that he had been struggling with questions about his sexuality for a long time before getting to that point. Many gay people start out dating members of the opposite sex, most likely because of the societal norms which dictate that that is what they are meant to do. Most likely at some point they start to realize that something just doesn't feel right, and after that start questioning their sexuality. I think many homophobes are people who are afraid to confront their own sexuality and ask the question, "Am I gay?" I myself once asked myself this question, and the answer I came up with was that I was bi. Actually, I don't think at any point I thought I might be gay, because I've always loved women. The point at which I really started questioning my sexuality was after my friend came out of the closet. I would meet some of his gay friends and couldn't help but notice how cute they were. I actually found myself attracted to some of them. My questions about my sexuality were answered when I made out with a guy and not only enjoyed it, but felt perfectly natural about it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: homosexuality [Re: mr_kite]
    #1134427 -

It's such a big deal because some people are making a huge deal out of it by, say, protesting funerals of AIDS victims, or murdering gay people.

Have you ever seen www.godhatesfags.com ?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1134440 -

That's a fucked up website.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Evolving]
    #1134502 -

Yeah, it's about as sickening as they come. Check out the "Photos" section...





--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Edited by Phluck (12/12/02 05:38 AM)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1134589 -

Man I was about to post the exact same two photos.
These people's hate seems to be directed randomly at every known institution...
The US Navy, the Red Cross, Laura Bush, the Catholic Church, HBO, the New York Fire Department...



...



Edited by dee_N_ae (12/12/02 02:16 PM)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1134599 -

This is just rediculous.
Judging by these photos it is clear to me that hate in this context must be obsolete....

These people fear what is unknown to them and apparently the subject of butt sex between two guys wraps up all their fear and hate into a nice little package complete with colorful signs, smiling photos and a slick web site.

Oh and of course, good 'ol "God" happens to be on their side.

Edited by dee_N_ae (12/12/02 06:09 AM)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1134786 -

After reaching a sertain level of conciousness...you can be anything you want to be, and get pleasure out of anything you want.
It is just a matter of choice.
If you want to control your thoughts and emotions, you can.


--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind

"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek



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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1134831 -

awww.......no place to post or chat on that site :frown:  I was going to have so much fun......oh well


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1135656 -

i think everyone is bi to be hoenst.
people always say "it's the inside that counts" and i believe it. i fall in love with a soul.
and if the body of that soul happens to be the same sex as me, then so be it.
but thats just my opinion :P


--------------------
What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?

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Re: homosexuality [Re: soylent_green]
    #1136726 -

i fall in love with a soul.
and if the body of that soul happens to be the same sex as me, then so be it.

I love how you put that! I agree completely.


--------------------
Namaste.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1137541 -

the 'bi' concept is another thought.

concidering that the above posts are correct. that its the soul that counts and not the body.

does this mean that there is more than one soul from different sexes that you can connect with?

it raises my question to wander if we are sexless in the spirit realm?

and is being bisexual, authentic? or trendy? or because you get more sex? =o)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1142395 -

hahaha... "turn gay"?

I'm pretty sure that they don't simply decide to be gay. If there is anyone who is actually gay and believes that it is due to any choice they made, i'd like to hear about it.

I can't believe there are so many intolerant homophobes at such a place as the shroomery. I hope that someday the hateful ones amongst you will learn to accept people.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1143026 -

:wink:

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1146061 -

1st off, i hope you were not implementing that i am a homophobe, because at no point did i mention anything negative toward the subject. your actions make me believe that you are insecure with yourself to come and try to undermine me.

and 2nd, 'TURN GAY'

yes thats right, did i say spontaneous? fuck no i didn't

turning gay can mean from the time you have a thought about it untill you make that cross over in knowing.

its people like you that infuriate me.



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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1149550 -

My comments about homophobia were directed at this community at large than at you specifically. There are people here who are intolerant of homosexuals; I'm glad to hear you aren't one of them.  Also, I'm quite secure in my sexuality and have not come here to "undermine" you.  I also apparently misunderstood what you meant about "turning gay", it doesn't infuriate me though, and it shouldn't infuriate you.  have a good one.  :smile:

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1150437 -

iF sex is determinded in the womb how come you can
now chose a childs sex through i.v.f treatments?i.e
before insemination?its genetic as is homosexuality :smile:in  IMHO


--------------------
er

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Re: homosexuality [Re: G a n j a]
    #1150565 -

In the future, rich parents will preselect a male child to be gay if their mansion needs a makeover...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: Swami]
    #1150624 -

Bisexuality is illegal?

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1150738 -

I've also read that gland by your brain is differently shaped physically. I think homosexuality has been around for thousands of years. Because of religion, especially those damn christians, homosexuals have been condemned. Today there's more people and society is more open about this so more people proclaim themselves as homosexual.

christian arguements are usually that it's not natural and how homosexuals can't reproduce so they're a flaw or something along the lines of that crap. You think taking drugs to fix your ilnesses is natural? What about cutting people open and taking organs out of other people and transplanting it into other people. You think it's natural to be hooked up to a machine to keep you alive, but without it you would be dead? We're already extended our life expectancy by many times, and this is sure as hell not natural. Our population is growing at an uncontrolled rate, the Earth will no longer support life in a few years, we are choking out and destroying our planet. Maybe homosexuality is nature's way to slow down the population explosion.


--------------------
Beers that I have had.  Total listed:2,302

Make your own beer!
Homebrewing(Extract with Specialty Grains)
Homebrewing(All-Grain)
Home wine making
Make your own Wine!

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Re: homosexuality [Re: daussaulit]
    #1151365 -

I think homosexuality has been around for thousands of years. Because of religion, especially those damn Christians, homosexuals have been condemned.
This is definitely true. Many ancient Greek philosiphers were openly gay, having relations with their apprentice.
Homophobia is a stigma that is burned deeply into the heads of much of society. Its funny how people will often refer to something as gay. Sort of like someone calling you a genital, (as if they are bad things.) They might have absolutely no problem with gay people but this 'derogatory' word is stuck in the language. An example of this that sticks out in my mind is eminem and elton jon. Sure em says fag and gay, but he obviously doesn't have to much of a phobia if he goes on stage and hugs the guy.
Homophobia is a bandwagon that to many people hop on because they are scared of thinking differently. I think that especially Americans are scared because of the religious factors. I'd estimate that 80% of America is a Christian of some lineage. And where did Christianity come from? Thats right, The Middle East! Ahh the middle east, where beautiful women wear cloaks in shame. A very societally uptight region that condemns homosexuality direly.



--------------------
_______________________________________
CSC

Life's a garden, Dig it!
~Joe Dirt

Off Topic Website

Edited by Cow Shit Collector (12/18/02 08:47 AM)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: daussaulit]
    #1151386 -

Our population is growing at an uncontrolled rate, the Earth will no longer support life in a few years, we are choking out and destroying our planet. Maybe homosexuality is nature's way to slow down the population explosion.

You may be more right than you know. The average life expectancy of non-infected STD homosexuals AND lesbians is way shorter than that of heterosexuals. Even without things like AIDS homosexuals live an average of something like 40 some years old.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1151898 -

In reply to:

Even without things like AIDS homosexuals live an average of something like 40 some years old.


That just doesn't sound right. I have a gay cousin who's in his 50's, and he appears to be in good shape.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: homosexuality [Re: silversoul7]
    #1161347 -

on average


--------------------
_______________________________________
CSC

Life's a garden, Dig it!
~Joe Dirt

Off Topic Website

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1161436 -

whatever the thinker thinks the prover proves

if you're speaking of the cameron group's "gay obituary" study, that the avg. gay life span is 43 years, please check this link:

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_cameron_obit.html

if i learned one thing from being a psychology student, it was not to present statistical information in such a blunt way. often, news media can sensationalize statistics of somebody's research experiment without a thurough investigation of the experiment. the results can be very misleading. i encourage everyone who finds such experiments of interest to hunt down the journal in which the experiment was published. you will then understand the specifics of the precedure, and this will become your basis for critique, in relation to the depth of your understanding of behavioral statistics. i could really go on on this one, but for now, i think the link will be enough for you to consider. blessings, cj


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1162419 -

I personally do not think anyone is just born gay. Homosexuality is something that an individual must discover for his or herself. It is a conscious choice, unfortunately the current state of our society relegates these people as being "different" both physically and mentallly. I think that this is a false, unproven statement. It doesn't look like homosexuality will go away anytime soon, and in fact it has been around for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Shakespeare was reportedly gay. those who cannot handle this difference; I guess, also cannot handle reality.


--------------------
Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!

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Re: homosexuality [Re: soochi]
    #1162517 -

it's really more of an animal magnetism than a conscious choice, to be honest. i mean, i'll be walking down the street entertaining no concept of sexuality and then my eyes will fall upon a man and "ummmmm" ok, i'm turned on - i do have a conscious choice on whether i ignore, act on, or leave to fantasy, dig? i don't particularly choose what i find erotic, so i don't bother trying to define it, it continuously plays itself out as a discovery. i mean, i'm not holding this concept in the back of my head of what i particularly want sexually, and then go out hunting for a close fascimile of it..
but, i'll agree with you all the same, that i'm not particularly sure that people are born gay, it very well might have to do with the types of emotional bondings you have throughout early childhood and whatever triggers your first sexual impressions during adolescence.
blessings, cj


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: chemkid]
    #1213023 -

Anyone who's studied greek philosophy knows that homosexuality has been around along time and has nothing to do with a changed social calamity within the last 50 years.  Also, abuse definitely is a factor in bi/homosexuality. it's not a homophobic viewpoint, but a valid one.  I really don't know what would make it a homophobic vp cuz there's nothin homophobic about it.

I'm not saying that everyone who's homo was abused, but a large % of abused children do have homosexual tendencies if compared to the non-abused population.

Those are the only two points I wanted to make from what I read above.  People who are straight can't comprehend what it means to be gay, thus having really really skewed ideas about it all.

My personal experience...I'm not gay, but I was abused when I was little.  When I reached puberty I didn't know what I was.  I knew I liked girls and have always liked girls a lot, but I was sexualized to the male body as a young boy so it didn't seem as foreign or disgustingly wrong to me.  Whatever you're introduced to when you're little (whether by will or not it doesn't matter) you're more comfortable with when you're older.  Anyhow, when you're a teenager you're messed up cuz you're a teenager.  It's a tough time for everyone.  Everything happens so fast, everything changes so fast, hormones are everywhere...etc.  It took me some time to gain confidence in the fact that I was straight and only straight.  I had to figure out what occurred when I was younger, and what that meant.  Some people can do it quicker than others.  I came out of it knowing that it's something that happened to me, but it doesn't mean and didn't mean that I was gay.  Others come out of it with a different view and that's okay.  Saying, all this there are gay people who don't believe being abused can make you gay.  This just amazes me.  They live their lives being persecuted by straights for being gay because straights can't understand stand and therefore don't believe their homosexuality.  Yet, when someone believes that their abuse as a child made them gay (or atleast opened the door)-and yes there are a lot out there-they'll be quick to argue with them.  How fucking hypocritical is this.  It's really an example that shows you ignorance is everywhere.

Anyhow, my experience has taught me a great lesson that unfortunately seems most people will never learn.  The lesson is that we're all different for thousands of different reasons.  There's no right or wrong.  You live your life and let others live theirs without comment and you do it being nice.  Im just ranting cuz I've heard so many opinions about homosexuality from people that don't understandd it.  It just shouldn't be something categorized...it is what it is just like heterosexuality and from reading above, even though everyone for the most part tries to state a neutral opinion, you can tell how they really feel about it between the lines.  It's pretty ridiculous. 

We want to believe that we're a civilized society, but we're so disgustingly far from it and that's what's so sad!!! :grin: 


--------------------
Marijuana is a horticultural plant.  Hemp is an industrial weed.  I believe they were both provided to us by GOD to use and enjoy.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ShrewDigsby]
    #1214984 -

While I feel compassion for your experiences, in the name of healthy gay souls, I want to provide another opinion.

Myths About Male Sexual Abuse:

FALSE: Boys abused by males are or will become homosexual.

It is unlikely that someone can make another person a homosexual or heterosexual. Many boys who have been abused by males wrongly believe that something about them sexually attracts males, and think that this may mean they are homosexual or effeminate. But it is the pedophile's inability to develop and maintain a healthy adult sexual relationship that's the problem - not the physical features of a sexually immature boy.

A pedophile and a homosexual are not the same thing - and while i would make the statement that most pedophiles have been sexually abused themselves, it is NOT true that most victims, like yourself, go on to become pedophiles (and they're NOT turned gay either!)

While we're on the subject, let us look at

"The Child Abuse Poppycock"
The idea of trying to blame homosexuals for any child abuse is shear poppycock! As 7/12/94 article in USA Today "Child Molesters Rarely Homosexual" points out a child is 100 times as likely to be sexually abused by a heterosexual than a gay adult. It's unfair to connect pedophile with gay or lesbians.

The view that homosexuals are likely child molesters often underlies custody challenges filed against gay parents and the dismissal of gay Boy Scout and youth group leaders.

Dr. Carole Jenny of the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, Denver, studied 269 sexual abused children examined during one year at Denver Children's Hospital. Investigation shows:

80% of girls were molested by a man who was or had been in a heterosexual relationship with the child's mother or another relative. 75% of boys were abused by males in heterosexual relationships with female relatives.

Only 1 of 219 girls was molested by a lesbian; 1 out of 50 boys by a gay male. This is a much lower percentage than the likely 6-10% of the population that is homosexual, therefore the incidence of gays molesting is much lower than the rate for heterosexuals.

http://pages.ivillage.com/nazut/circle/id11.html

and finally:

"Children Raised in Homosexual Homes"

Heterosexual children raised by homosexuals could no more "become" homosexual than a brown-eyed child raised with blue-eyed parents would eventually become blue-eyed. As reported in USA Today 8/16/94 "Gay men likely to raise heterosexual sons". Why is it that nearly every homosexual child was raised in heterosexual homes where heterosexuality was not only the norm but expected and encouraged? Regardless of the home environment, people are the sexual orientation they are and home influences will not and cannot change that anymore than it could cause one to change eye color.

Remember, in talking about homosexuals, we're not talking about a group of immoral, twisted, perverted people who woke up one morning and said "I'm going to choose to become homosexual." Their orientation was not a matter of choice and is a permanent part of their being, hence it is immoral for any family or church to pressure such people to even try to change.

http://www.lionking.org/~kovu/bible/section16.html







--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ShrewDigsby]
    #1215253 -

I do not mean to offend anyone when I say this but homosexuality does seem like an odd life style. That is to say that it is not a usefull practice. Again I do not mean to offend anyone but if one is meant to be a homosexual then perhaps that person is not meant to pass on their genes to the next generation. I know it is possible to have sex with a woman/man and produce a child that way but a homosexual cannot produce a child with a life parterner since that parterner is of the same sex. This is why, in the wild, displays of bisexuallity occurs more often then just homosexuality. That being said I am almost sure that homosexuality may be genetic in which case it is a disorder (again not trying to offend anyone). I say it is a disorder because, as classified in scientific journals, any mutation (ie: variation from 'normal breed standers') that does not lead to a fit (as explained by Darwin: adaptations that suit the environment and are able to pass on its genes to the next generation) individual.
I don't thing there is anything wrong with being who you are and I think every one, regardless of ethic group, sex and sexual orientation, needs to have the same rights. I don't agree with being called a homophobic for thinking the way I do or telling a child the difference between having two mommies or daddies or one of each. If you are a homosexual you will have to deal with being different. This cannot be achieved by making everyone in the world love and accept you, you must accept who you are. I don't enjoy getting hit on by a homosexual person and find it disturbing to be looked at when I am in a changing room at the gym. I am never rude or make a scene about because everyone makes mistakes. Well that is just my opinion and once again I do not mean to offend anyone by what I said.


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear, permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."

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Re: homosexuality [Re: daussaulit]
    #1215291 -

I remember my psychology professor saying that working mothers were under more stress because of their being in a working environment during pregnancy, this added stress (in some mothers) causes some horomone to be released more often, which could have some side-effects on the infant's brain, causing it to later in life lean more torwards homosexuality. I have no idea of the legitamacy of his statement and Im certainly not claiming it as scientific fact, but that's just what he said.


--------------------
You're my blue sky, you're my sunny day,
Lord you know it makes me high when you turn your love my way. Turn your love my waaaaaay, Yea.
-Richard (Dickey) Betts

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1215312 -

In this society where damn near every possible sexual deviation is accepted, I don't know why we still bother to question homosexuality.Like everything else ,shit happens.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: homosexuality [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1216435 -

Quote:

80% of girls were molested by a man who was or had been in a heterosexual relationship with the child's mother or another relative. 75% of boys were abused by males in heterosexual relationships with female relatives.

Only 1 of 219 girls was molested by a lesbian; 1 out of 50 boys by a gay male. This is a much lower percentage than the likely 6-10% of the population that is homosexual, therefore the incidence of gays molesting is much lower than the rate for heterosexuals.


I'm not sure I understand these statistics, are they stating that 49 out of 50 molestations of boys were committed by women? Or is it that of all boys, 1 out of 50 are molested by men. Or are they saying that of all boys molested by men, only 1 in 50 of the molesters were admitted homosexuals. It is makes no sense that homosexual molestation should not be considered to be homosexual just because the molester is not an admitted or out of the closet homosexual. So priests molesting young boys wouldn't be considered homosexual because the priests have taken a vow of celibacy? If 75% of boys were abused by males in heterosexual relationships with female relatives, isn't this still a homosexual molestation? Just because someone is in a 'heterosexual relationship,' is no guarantee that they are in fact heterosexual. There are innumerable stories of gay men who attempted to live the straight lifestyle. Then there are the true bisexuals...

Bottom line, the good doctor's statistics are pretty much useless.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (01/14/03 03:26 AM)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1217374 -

Heterosexual children raised by homosexuals could no more "become" homosexual than a brown-eyed child raised with blue-eyed parents would eventually become blue-eyed.

i don't agree with that at all...

first of all, they/you (for believing) are assuming every child 'IS' heterosexual, since you cannot tell me that homosexuality IS NOT genetic, then you cannot say that every child is heterosexual. for if in cases of genetics. that rules that out

and would you not agree that the environment we are raised in directly effects the decisions we make

ie, you have a kid in a home with both parents that smoke, the odds are that, that kid will grow up and smoke or at least try to.

when a kid is raised by gay parents, that becomes a normallity for them, thus creating an image that being homosexual is normal therefore choosing that lifestyle.

as ive stated before, i believe that there are 3 reasons for homosexuallity
1. genetics
2. environment
3. choosing the lifestyle

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Re: homosexuality [Re: ribbit]
    #1218453 -

Quote:

when a kid is raised by gay parents, that becomes a normallity for them, thus creating an image that being homosexual is normal therefore choosing that lifestyle.


Then how do you explain the fact that most gay people have straight parents? After all, heterosexuality would become a normality for them at home. I think that rather than influencing the sexuality of a child, having gay parents would simply make them feel comfortable with whatever their sexuality is.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: homosexuality [Re: silversoul7]
    #1222477 -

Then how do you explain the fact that most gay people have straight parents?

because i was only speaking about the subject of children being raised by gay parents. a heterosexual family is completely different.

my argument has 3 cases, and each case cannot be summed up with another.
i doesn't work like that...

heres an example:
you have a kid that raised by gay parents: that kid grows up and is gay because of 2 options: he/she became gay do to the environment, or he/she chose that lifestyle

in the case of a child being raised by heterosexual parents and being gay would be more than liikely genetics, in some cases...chosing the lifestyle (after they leave home and are on their own)

and that is why i treat them differently, because they are. (in my belief)

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Re: homosexuality [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1222650 -

I think it's great when people that are gay can come right out & say that they are because they are being true to themselves. I feel bad for gay people that think they need to stay "in the closet" for fear of not being excepted.



--------------------
I know what you want, I can give it to you.

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