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Offlinechemkid
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Importance of Genetic Homosexuality
    #1132391 - 12/11/02 08:02 PM (20 years, 14 hours ago)

There has been a lot of posts on homosexuality lately and I have actually asked this question in an earlier a post.........

Why is it so important to homosexuals that Homosexuality be genetic?

I am not talking about the respect issue. Let's assume that the world was perfect and no one cared about such things.

Whether homosexuality is genetic, hormonal, brain damage, a choice, whatever......why is the reason behind homosexuality so heartily fought over by gays that it is genetic? Who cares about the reason it exists? (I am interested in it's root from a scientific point of view but the findings won't devestate me one way or the other)


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Offlinethe universe
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: chemkid]
    #1132524 - 12/11/02 08:54 PM (20 years, 13 hours ago)

Because a lot of homosexuals are really just sexually disfunctional and are embarrased about it. Not all of them, but a lot of them I suspect.


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"If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the 'Fuck you' signs in the world."- J. D. Salinger


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: chemkid]
    #1132581 - 12/11/02 09:27 PM (20 years, 12 hours ago)

Homosexuality isn't genetic. For one thing, gays hardly procreate (some of them do), and given the number of homosexuals, there is no way this could be a genetic phenomena.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Zahid] * 1
    #1132638 - 12/11/02 09:48 PM (20 years, 12 hours ago)

Lots of times genes skip a generation. There is evidence which shows that it's fairly likely it is genetic.

It's not important that it's genetic, if you're referring to the debate we were having earlier, where you were saying it's unlikely that it's genetic, I was just pointing out that that is bullshit.

The real debate is whether it's a choice or not.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: chemkid]
    #1132651 - 12/11/02 09:53 PM (20 years, 12 hours ago)

Only gay political activists want it to be genetic. They seem to be so insecure about their lives that they can't accept it as a choice they brought on theirselves. Also, these activists are bowing to pressure from the anti-gay Christian Right. It's basically a political move to further the gay activists' agenda.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Anonymous]
    #1132660 - 12/11/02 09:56 PM (20 years, 12 hours ago)

"They seem to be so insecure about their lives that they can't accept it as a choice they brought on theirselves."

Well, I guess that makes sense if you're stupid enough to ignore the facts that:

a) There is evidence to support the idea that it is not a choice, and...

b) There is no evidence to support the idea that it isn't.

"Also, these activists are bowing to pressure from the anti-gay Christian Right."

If you're going to make statements like this, you have to explain them. How are they bowing to their pressure?

"It's basically a political move to further the gay activists' agenda."

Ah yes, the gay agenda.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1132725 - 12/11/02 10:20 PM (20 years, 11 hours ago)

Skipping a generation? What a narrow way to look at it. Homosexuals want it to be genetic, because if it is, then it's 'OK'. They refuse to accept that homosexuality is a somewhat accepted sexual fetish.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Zahid]
    #1132728 - 12/11/02 10:23 PM (20 years, 11 hours ago)

Homosexuals want it to be genetic, because if it is, then it's 'OK'. They refuse to accept that homosexuality is a somewhat accepted sexual fetish.

I agree!  :wink:


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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: chemkid]
    #1132738 - 12/11/02 10:27 PM (20 years, 11 hours ago)

I agree. Who gives a damn. It's an acceptance issue. If society could accept it and they (homosexuals) could accept themselves, then there would be no issue at all.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1132755 - 12/11/02 10:34 PM (20 years, 11 hours ago)

a) There is evidence to support the idea that it is not a choice, and...

b) There is no evidence to support the idea that it isn't.


There is little persuasive evidence on either side. I don't know or even believe either side of this arguement... the question was on the importance of homosexuality being important to gays, and I have noticed time and time again that the only gays who even care are the ones you see on TV, leading rallies.

"Also, these activists are bowing to pressure from the anti-gay Christian Right."

If you're going to make statements like this, you have to explain them. How are they bowing to their pressure?

The Christian Right has no problem demonstrating its anti-gay feelings. Rather than simply ignore the arrogance of this political faction, the gay activists have chosen to respond by saying homosexuality is genetic. It is nothing but a political pissing match.

"It's basically a political move to further the gay activists' agenda."

Ah yes, the gay agenda.

More specifically, the special interest gay agenda. I'm not talking about the guy from work who happens to prefer men, or your gay friend who is just like you except for his sexual preference, I am talking about the homosexual rights advocacy groups. The ones who lobby for legalizing gay marriages and push for "homosexual education" in health classes around the country. By saying that their homosexuality is genetic, these people feel then that they have rights above and beyond other Americans.

As Mr. Garrison said, being tolarant just means being able to stand someone. As far as I'm concerned, nothing is wrong with being gay. But there are people who feel uncomfortable around gays, and, believe it or not, those people have a right to voice their anti-gay opinions. I also find it extremely inappropriate to teach kids about anal sex in health class... I don't even think health should be a class in our schools, but that is another story.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Anonymous]
    #1132897 - 12/11/02 11:26 PM (20 years, 10 hours ago)

"There is little persuasive evidence on either side."

Well, first off, if it were a choice, odds would be you'd have quite a few gay men admitting that it was a choice. They can't ALL be liars. I've never met one who said it was a choice.

I know that being heterosexual wasn't a choice for me. Do you think you'd be able to switch from being attracted to women to being attracted to men? Because I sure as hell couldn't.

Secondly, there is some evidence to support the idea that it is genetic, nothing conclusive, but some. There are also some more definate links, like the well known finger length study.

There is no evidence of any kind whatsoever that suggests it is a choice, as opposed to a bit of evidence that it isn't. It's pretty damn obvious that it's more likely not a choice.

If you're going to be a bigot, just come right out and admit it, don't skirt around the issue by pretending that there is an equal amount of evidence for both sides, because there sure as hell isn't. There's no way you can argue that every single gay man is lying about making a choice. There's absolutely no medical evidence that it is a choice, as opposed to the relatively small amount of evidence that suggests it isn't.

"But there are people who feel uncomfortable around gays, and, believe it or not, those people have a right to voice their anti-gay opinions."

Yeah, I know they have that right, and not once have I said that they don't. Of course, thanks to free speech, I have every right to call these people bigots and morons, and even shove a little gay porn in their faces so I can offend them for my amusement.

"I also find it extremely inappropriate to teach kids about anal sex in health class... I don't even think health should be a class in our schools, but that is another story."

Well, it's this kind of thinking that has made the United States number one in teenage pregnancy amongst first world countries. Keeping people uneducated about safe sex and sexuality is basically denying that sex is human nature. People are going to have sex, gay or straight, no matter what anybody does to stop it. They can either go into it ignorant or they can do it smartly, it's up to you.

It works exactly the same way for drugs. We can teach people that drugs are wrong and evil and should never be touched, or we can teach them that drugs can be safe when used intelligently. There's no way that we can stop drug use and maintain a free society, so the best way to deal with it is to make sure it's being done safely.

Why the fuck would you be opposed to homosexual marriages? Nobody is forcing you to marry a man, some people just want to have the freedom to do that if they choose.

...and "rights above and beyond" everyone else? What the FUCK does that mean? They aren't asking for any rights above heterosexuals. They're asking for equal rights. Can you give me an example of some right they want that's above what heterosexuals have? I'm pretty damn sure you can't.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1132911 - 12/11/02 11:35 PM (20 years, 10 hours ago)

>If you're going to be a bigot, just come right out and admit it,

I have made my argument and you have ignored it. Maybe rather than insulting me, you should consider what I have to say first.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Anonymous]
    #1132940 - 12/11/02 11:43 PM (20 years, 10 hours ago)

"I have made my argument and you have ignored it. Maybe rather than insulting me, you should consider what I have to say first. "

Uh... I did. Perhaps you hadn't noticed that my post was a whole lot longer than that one sentance. Care to respond to the rest of it?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1132956 - 12/11/02 11:48 PM (20 years, 10 hours ago)

Another point...

The reason that the gay rights groups are saying that homosexuality is not a choice (which is a whole lot different from genetic), is because the only evidence there is suggests that this is true. It's also because pretty much every single gay person seems convinced that they didn't have a choice.

I have no idea why those opposed to homosexuality won't admit that it's more likely not a choice. The only reason I can come up with is that they want to believe this. Why would they want to believe this? Well, they already hate gays, and they don't want to switch over to acceptance.



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1132980 - 12/11/02 11:58 PM (20 years, 10 hours ago)

""There is little persuasive evidence on either side.""

"Well, first off, if it were a choice, odds would be you'd have quite a few gay men admitting that it was a choice. They can't ALL be liars. I've never met one who said it was a choice.

I know that being heterosexual wasn't a choice for me. Do you think you'd be able to switch from being attracted to women to being attracted to men? Because I sure as hell couldn't.

If you're going to be a bigot, just come right out and admit it, don't skirt around the issue by pretending that there is an equal amount of evidence for both sides, because there sure as hell isn't. There's no way you can argue that every single gay man is lying about making a choice. There's absolutely no medical evidence that it is a choice, as opposed to the relatively small amount of evidence that suggests it isn't."

I said little evidence, far too little for me to make an informed decision. As much as it pains me to use examples from these people, there are many "saved" Christians who have "converted" from homosexuality. And then there is another arguement that it is genetic, because some animals have shown homosexual tendencies. I could counter that by saying maybe those animals were just desperate. The point is, I will not believe one or the other until the homosexual gene is isolated and experimented with.

""But there are people who feel uncomfortable around gays, and, believe it or not, those people have a right to voice their anti-gay opinions."

Yeah, I know they have that right, and not once have I said that they don't. Of course, thanks to free speech, I have every right to call these people bigots and morons, and even shove a little gay porn in their faces so I can offend them for my amusement."

Yes, you do.

""I also find it extremely inappropriate to teach kids about anal sex in health class... I don't even think health should be a class in our schools, but that is another story."

Well, it's this kind of thinking that has made the United States number one in teenage pregnancy amongst first world countries. Keeping people uneducated about safe sex and sexuality is basically denying that sex is human nature. People are going to have sex, gay or straight, no matter what anybody does to stop it. They can either go into it ignorant or they can do it smartly, it's up to you.

It works exactly the same way for drugs. We can teach people that drugs are wrong and evil and should never be touched, or we can teach them that drugs can be safe when used intelligently. There's no way that we can stop drug use and maintain a free society, so the best way to deal with it is to make sure it's being done safely."

I am not so much objecting to the fact that schools teach sex-ed, but I take issue with many parents' unwillingness to take responsibility for their children. I think a kid is more likely to be safe and responsible about sex if he or she feels able to talk to his or her parents about sex. Of course, facts about prenancy and STDs are very important, and this is where a school environment can help.. with the scientific aspects of sex.

"Why the fuck would you be opposed to homosexual marriages? Nobody is forcing you to marry a man, some people just want to have the freedom to do that if they choose."

I don't take issue with gay marriages, I just am sick of it being rammed down my throat.

"...and "rights above and beyond" everyone else? What the FUCK does that mean? They aren't asking for any rights above heterosexuals. They're asking for equal rights. Can you give me an example of some right they want that's above what heterosexuals have? I'm pretty damn sure you can't."

Take the Boy Scouts for example. A private organization, dedicated to improving boys' lives and also one that happens to be fairly religious. Rather than accepting the BSA's ruling to expel a gay troop leader, this troop leader decided to sue for reinstatement. He tried to infringe on the BSA's right to practice its own beliefs, however politically incorrect.

And, as far as the bigot comment goes, there is really nothing I can say. I know I am tolerant and accepting of others' sexual preferences, and that is really all that matters. Just because I argue against what is politically correct, does not make me a bigot.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Anonymous]
    #1132998 - 12/12/02 12:09 AM (20 years, 9 hours ago)

"much as it pains me to use examples from these people, there are many "saved" Christians who have "converted" from homosexuality."

This doesn't mean that they are no longer gay, it just means that they hate themselves enough to deny their own sexuality. I've seen interviews with these people, and they're talking about how it's so wonderful to be straight now, and they're still talking in that gay voice. I've also heard of people like this regressing back into the temptation of homosexuality. If it was just a silly choice they made, then why is it so tempting to go back?

"I will not believe one or the other until the homosexual gene is isolated and experimented with."

Well, "not a choice" does not equal "genetic". There are other biological causes that could lead to homosexuality that aren't necessarily genetic.

"He tried to infringe on the BSA's right to practice its own beliefs, however politically incorrect."

Well, if a black man tried to sue the KKK (a primarily religious organization) because he wasn't admitted, I would laugh and pat him on the back too.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Anonymous]
    #1133014 - 12/12/02 12:16 AM (20 years, 9 hours ago)

"I don't take issue with gay marriages, I just am sick of it being rammed down my throat."

Rammed down your throat? The vast majority of throat ramming incidents by gay men are consensual.

I don't see what you're talking about here. People are allowed to protest whatever they want, it's a free country. It's not like the gay activist community is infringing on your freedom in any way. If the relatively small amount of coverage of gay rights issues on the news is so offensive to you, change the channel.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: chemkid]
    #1133105 - 12/12/02 12:46 AM (20 years, 9 hours ago)

Why is it so important to homosexuals that Homosexuality be genetic?

I cannot say with certitude but I think it has to do with being accepted and evading personal responsiblity for their actions. A third reason might be to get themselves put on the roles of things like affirmative action so that all employers would have to hire a certain percentage of homosexuals. As I say, I do not know for certain.

Thanks for the thread.


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133108 - 12/12/02 12:47 AM (20 years, 9 hours ago)

This issue seems to be very important to you.

Why?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133158 - 12/12/02 01:03 AM (20 years, 9 hours ago)

I'm not entirely sure why. I don't really have any huge personal connection with it. I'm not gay, and none of my closest friends are gay either. I have a handful of gay friends, but I didn't really know anyone gay when I first developed this opinion.

I do, however, feel that homophobia is just as wrong as racism. I also find it to be very apparent that homophobia is rampant in our society. As it stands now, gay people are treated like shit by a very large percentage of our society.

It's pretty much impossible not to witness homophobia in some form on a daily basis.



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133179 - 12/12/02 01:10 AM (20 years, 8 hours ago)

"I cannot say with certitude but I think it has to do with being accepted and evading personal responsiblity for their actions. A third reason might be to get themselves put on the roles of things like affirmative action so that all employers would have to hire a certain percentage of homosexuals. As I say, I do not know for certain."

Evading personal responsibility for what actions? Being gay is not an action.

Maybe it's because they honestly believe that it's not a choice?

I think a more poignant question is, why is it so important for the anti gay folks to believe it is a choice?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133210 - 12/12/02 01:29 AM (20 years, 8 hours ago)

I cannot say with certitude but I think it has to do with being accepted and evading personal responsiblity for their actions.

Well, at least I am glad you said that you don't know for certain.

I do not take the stand that homosexuality is not a choice in order to "evade responsibility for my actions." I do take this stand, however, because it does have something to do with being accepted.

I think most people these days are anti-racism because they realize that skin color is not something you can change. It is just the way you were born, and there is no reason to be prejudice against someone for the way he/she was born. They can't control that, and thus it's not their fault. I feel that since I am gay myself and I know it is not a choice, informing people of this will make them a lot more tolerant and accepting of gay people because it's something they cannot control.

If you don't believe this you are simply being a bigot because I am a gay person and I am telling you all that it is not a choice!

A third reason might be to get themselves put on the roles of things like affirmative action so that all employers would have to hire a certain percentage of homosexuals. As I say, I do not know for certain.

Umm, this has never ever crossed my mind at all! Though now that you mention it, I guess it might be an extra benefit of homosexuality being accepted as something that is not a choice. It sounds like a silly motive that you came up with simply for the sake of saying that we must have a motive.

Like I said in the other thread, I don't homosexuality is necessarily genetic, but caused by certain biological factors during the development of the fetus in the womb. I am not sure exactly what causes it, but I can say with certainty that it is not a choice.

-RebelSteve


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Namaste.


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133218 - 12/12/02 01:32 AM (20 years, 8 hours ago)

"I'm not entirely sure why. I don't really have any huge personal connection with it. I'm not gay, and none of my closest friends are gay either. I have a handful of gay friends, but I didn't really know anyone gay when I first developed this opinion.

I do, however, feel that homophobia is just as wrong as racism. I also find it to be very apparent that homophobia is rampant in our society. As it stands now, gay people are treated like shit by a very large percentage of our society.

It's pretty much impossible not to witness homophobia in some form on a daily basis."

I do not know where you live but where I live I do not see any homophobia at all.  I hope you are not referring to the media and in particular television.  I don't know if it has occurred to you but those that run that networks only let us see what they want us to see.  Why do you think they call it "programming"? :wink: 


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133219 - 12/12/02 01:32 AM (20 years, 8 hours ago)

You may choose to engage in heterosexual behavior, you may choose to engage in homosexual behavior, or you may choose to avoid all sexual behavior and remain celebate. Regardless of what you may feel is your inborn sexuality, you make choices to engage or not engage in certain behavior. I think this is what is meant by it being a choice to many people.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133220 - 12/12/02 01:33 AM (20 years, 8 hours ago)

Phluck, I just want to say that I have appreciated and agreed with every post you have made in this thread. I'm so glad there is someone as eloquent and intelligent as you out there who can defend the same viewpoint on this issue that I have even though you have no personal reason to do so. Thank you!

-RebelSteve


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Namaste.


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133222 - 12/12/02 01:34 AM (20 years, 8 hours ago)

"Evading personal responsibility for what actions? Being gay is not an action.

Maybe it's because they honestly believe that it's not a choice?

I think a more poignant question is, why is it so important for the anti gay folks to believe it is a choice?"

I think Evolving answered this.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Evolving]
    #1133234 - 12/12/02 01:41 AM (20 years, 8 hours ago)

Though what you say about acting on your sexual desires as being a choice is true, it's not what I mean by homosexuality being a choice.

It is not even a choice for me to be attracted to men. When I see a cute guy and think to myself "Wow, he's cute," I am not choosing to do so. It is simply a thought that enters my head, as I am sure that even a married man cannot stop the thought "Wow, she is hot," from entering his mind when he sees an attractive woman other than his wife.

Like I said before, I have been attracted to men since I can remember being attracted to anyone. I never chose to do so. It's just the way I am. I can't just choose to start liking women, just as I never chose to start liking men.

That's the truth (at least for me it is!) whether you choose to accept it or not.

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.


Edited by RebelSteve33 (12/12/02 01:46 AM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Evolving]
    #1133256 - 12/12/02 01:55 AM (20 years, 8 hours ago)

"Regardless of what you may feel is your inborn sexuality, you make choices to engage or not engage in certain behavior."

I could fuck a million men, and I still would be attracted to women. It's a choice I _could_ make, but I don't see why I, or anyone would.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1133266 - 12/12/02 01:58 AM (20 years, 8 hours ago)

In reply to:

I never chose to do so. It's just the way I am.



I do not doubt you, I am not defending certain opinions of others, I am trying to communicate what I believe to be their way of thinking. My point was that many of those who talk about homosexuality being a choice look at it the same way as celibacy being a choice or monogamy being a choice. Specifically, we can address those who look upon homosexuality as being morally wrong. From their perspective, the hand you are dealt with in life is not so important as the way you play it.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133268 - 12/12/02 02:00 AM (20 years, 8 hours ago)

I could fuck a million men...

OK. I will take some of that action. I will lay $100,000 against your $10,000 that you could not. Put your money where your mouth (or other body part) is. I will draw up the legal documents tomorrow...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1133273 - 12/12/02 02:02 AM (20 years, 8 hours ago)

Thanks, Steve.

I'm glad you're here to back me up. It'd be nice if we had a few more gay people pop up to back up the idea that it's not a choice.



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1133276 - 12/12/02 02:02 AM (20 years, 8 hours ago)

Well, at least I am glad you said that you don't know for certain.

Why would I say otherwise? I thought you knew from previous posts that I think there is very little we can know with certitude. I am not gay therefore how in the world can I know with certitude why they think, if they think, it is important for the cause to be genetic?!?

I think most people these days are anti-racism because they realize that skin color is not something you can change. It is just the way you were born, and there is no reason to be prejudice against someone for the way he/she was born. They can't control that, and thus it's not their fault. I feel that since I am gay myself and I know it is not a choice, informing people of this will make them a lot more tolerant and accepting of gay people because it's something they cannot control.

I think I mentioned that as one of the possibilities, did I not?


If you don't believe this you are simply being a bigot because I am a gay person and I am telling you all that it is not a choice!

Be very careful here, Steve. You are aware, I hope, of the "Be Nice" policy and to imply that if I do not agree with you makes me a bigot is a not-so-subtle way of manipulation and/or calling me a bigot. Is that what you really think?

Umm, this has never ever crossed my mind at all! Though now that you mention it, I guess it might be an extra benefit of homosexuality being accepted as something that is not a choice. It sounds like a silly motive that you came up with simply for the sake of saying that we must have a motive.

Actually it is not a "silly motive" but a driving force of the Gay Lobbyists. I know, I am a lobbyist myself. They want the genetic proof so that they can have affirmative action status and more importantly to them health benefits and insurance benefits under the same protection as heterosexual marriages. There are probably a lot of things you are unaware of regarding their movement.

Last point:

Here is why the genetic element is a poor argument for acceptance. Never ever ever has anyone's genetic make-up made a society "tolerant" of them. In fact just the opposite is the case. If you think that racial prejudice does not exist in the US then you are sadly mistaken. It does and there have been evidences of it right here at the Shroomery. Just because a person is born a certain way does not mean that people will not hate them, poke fun at them, or even kill them.

I know. I am a Native American and a former member of the NAACP.

I wonder how the gay rights crowd will like it when and if it is finally proven to be genetic and they people start aborting babies because they are gay. Makes ya think, doesn't it?


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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Swami]
    #1133285 - 12/12/02 02:07 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

hah!

Okay, let's see here.

Let's give each guy 5 minutes, it's not much, but it's enough to get off, assuming I'm on the bottom. This means I could do 12 in an hour. Let's give me 8 hours a day to sleep and eat. giving me 16 hours a day, or 192 men in one day.

This means it would take me about 14 and a quarter years to fuck a million men.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133288 - 12/12/02 02:09 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

In reply to:

192 men in one day



OUCH!


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133295 - 12/12/02 02:11 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

I assume that dear Swami missed the fact that you were probably using hyperbole.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133300 - 12/12/02 02:14 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

Hehe, PROBABLY.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133304 - 12/12/02 02:15 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

I think I mentioned that as one of the possibilities, did I not?

Yes, and I acknowledged that when I said that I do take the stand that homosexuality is not a choice because it has something to do with being accepted.

Be very careful here, Steve. You are aware, I hope, of the "Be Nice" policy and to imply that if I do not agree with you makes me a bigot is a not-so-subtle way of manipulation and/or calling me a bigot. Is that what you really think?

I'll admit that I haven't read the "Be Nice" policy, but I hope that what I said doesn't go against it because I do like to consider myself a "nice" guy. When I said 'you', I wasn't referring to you in general. I was using the word 'you' in the plural sense, and what I was saying was directed to anyone who might read it. It was not a personal attack at all; it was just what I think.

Actually it is not a "silly motive" but a driving force of the Gay Lobbyists. I know, I am a lobbyist myself. They want the genetic proof so that they can have affirmative action status and more importantly to them health benefits and insurance benefits under the same protection as heterosexual marriages. There are probably a lot of things you are unaware of regarding their movement.

You're right; there probably are a lot of things I am unaware of regarding the gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender movement. I was not aware of the fact that gay lobbysists were lobbying to receive affirmative action status at all. Being gay is not a big thing to me. I don't think black people should have special rights because they are black, and I don't feel that I should have special rights because I am gay. I feel that my sexuality has nothing to do with the opportunities that are open to me, and I should not be given any special opportunities. My sexuality is not who I am; it's simply my sexuality!

Never ever ever has anyone's genetic make-up made a society "tolerant" of them. In fact just the opposite is the case. If you think that racial prejudice does not exist in the US then you are sadly mistaken. It does and there have been evidences of it right here at the Shroomery. Just because a person is born a certain way does not mean that people will not hate them, poke fun at them, or even kill them.

Of course I realize that there is still racial prejudice in this world. I didn't mean to imply that at all. It's just that, in my mind, it isn't right to kill, hate, or even poke fun of someone because of something that is out of their control. Hopefully I am not the only one who has this belief, and that is why I think that informing people that homosexuality is not a choice does aid in being accepted.

-RebelSteve








--------------------
Namaste.


Edited by RebelSteve33 (12/12/02 02:18 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133311 - 12/12/02 02:18 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

I assume that dear Swami missed the fact that you were probably using hyperbole.

*Slaps forehead* Doh! Did I get sucked in (kudos to evolving) again?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133317 - 12/12/02 02:19 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

OK, I will be generous and give you 16 years to complete the task.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Swami]
    #1133322 - 12/12/02 02:21 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

OK, I will be generous and give you 16 years to complete the task.

Don't take this the wrong way but I just love a man whose focus is so fixated.


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133325 - 12/12/02 02:22 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

Hehe, PROBABLY.

:grin: :grin: :grin:


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1133331 - 12/12/02 02:27 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

Well said and well done.

I suggest you read the policy.  :smile:

There are a couple of things I am not keen on:

1.  Branding homophobes bigots.

2.  Branding homosexuals.

As I understand the difference between conceptual abstraction and perceptual abstraction and how it correlates between humans and animals I do, however, see nothing wrong with:

3.  Branding cattle.

Cheers, 


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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133352 - 12/12/02 02:33 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

As far as homophobia being evident everyday, I'd have to point out that "faggot" is probably the most common insult in every north american high school. I seriously doubt this is helping to make the average gay teen comfortable.

It's often subtle, of course, as these things always are.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133373 - 12/12/02 02:39 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

"As far as homophobia being evident everyday, I'd have to point out that "faggot" is probably the most common insult in every north american high school."

Hmm are there studies to back this up? Who did the studies? Etc

When I grew up gays were beaten up and today many high schools have gay clubs and even where gay pride T-shirts. That seems to contradict your idea.

As I am not a high school student in my area I do not know whether they use that term or not.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133406 - 12/12/02 02:51 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

I was recently a high school student, and I would have to agree with Phluck. 'Faggot' probably is the most commonly used insult there. I have had people at my school who I do not even know whisper 'faggot' into my ear while I was walking down the hall before (because of my voice, probably), and it really does hurt. It's a very derogative and hateful word when someone says it to you and means it.

Even though some might think that being gay might be "cool" these days, it really is a difficult life to live!


--------------------
Namaste.


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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133433 - 12/12/02 02:57 AM (20 years, 7 hours ago)

"Hmm are there studies to back this up? Who did the studies? Etc"

Well, I'm basing this on observation. If it's not #1, it's damn close. "Gay" is way up there too. Actually, I can't think of any single insult that would be more common than those.

Next down the list would have to be variations on the theme of idiocy. Sadly, we'll probably never see an end to this kind of prejudice as the stupid lobby can't organize for shit.

"When I grew up gays were beaten up and today many high schools have gay clubs and even where gay pride T-shirts. That seems to contradict your idea."

Just because they have clubs doesn't mean they aren't still beaten up. The reason they have clubs in the first place is because so many of them feel alienated and picked on. Sure things are better, but they're far from perfect, hell, they're far from tolerable.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133467 - 12/12/02 03:07 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

"When I grew up gays were beaten up and today many high schools have gay clubs and even where gay pride T-shirts. That seems to contradict your idea."

The town I live in has one of the highest amounts of gays per capita in Canada, and I believe it wins for having most lesbians per capita (at least second place). I graduated from high school 4 years ago and the word "fag" was used probably an average of every 2 minutes somewhere in the school. No studies, though. There was a guy who acted kinda gay and everybody called him "flamin phil." My best friend was skinny and played guitar, so he was also harrassed. If someone came out in that school it wouldn't have been too pretty.

I feel that any time somebody says that being gay is a choice they're hiding "so they should change" somewhere in their opinions. I imagine that's why it's important for it to be genetic. Before they want people to think it's genetic, though, queers want to get across the message that it's not a choice and that it isn't a result of cooky parenting. Basically, gays can't be blamed for their "problem" so everybody had better learn to live with it.

Someone said something about if it was genetic it would have died off because of lack of gays breeding. Well, I'm acquainted with 3 boys and 2 girls birthed by lesbians, so.. yeah. Also, any Gay I've ever heard talk about what it was like in high school has said something like "I knew I was gay, but I still dated girls." I think lots of people have denied the gay part of themselves because of social pressure, and I think it would be easy to get a girl pregnant in this situation.


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133499 - 12/12/02 03:15 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

Well I guess the bottom line is that teenagers can be really mean.

Remember Columbine?

I don't think we can do anything to change people from being mean even if it has to do with genetics.


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1133569 - 12/12/02 03:45 AM (20 years, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

I was recently a high school student, and I would have to agree with Phluck. 'Faggot' probably is the most commonly used insult there. I have had people at my school who I do not even know whisper 'faggot' into my ear while I was walking down the hall before (because of my voice, probably), and it really does hurt. It's a very derogative and hateful word when someone says it to you and means it.

Even though some might think that being gay might be "cool" these days, it really is a difficult life to live! 




Well it could be that you are overly sensitive to the issue.

I don't know your story completely but I would guess that here I got you beat.

Here's mine:

As a gangly zit-faced teenager I was, different.  You and I have discussed this before.  When I was a freshman in high school I had the vocabulary of a sophomore in college.  This is because I spent most of my time reading.  When I was in 7th grade I read over 10,000 extracurricular pages from the high school library.  Since I didn't talk very much with my peers I learned how to talk by using the vocabulary I was familiar with which was found in the books I read.  When a teacher called on me I answered articulately which the teachers liked but the students thought I was showing off.

In short, they hated me.  I was abused, beaten up, picked on, ridiculed, and tormented on a daily basis.

The story gets worse.

I did have a single friend that had similiar interests.  We hung out quite a bit together and are still friends to this day.

Then, it happened.  In fact two events happened nearly simultaneously that cause me to remember high school as the worst years of my life.

My friend was caught in a car with his uncle who was trying to have sex with him.  It was in the newspapers and for a small town, pop. 1,200, it was quite a scandal.  Secondly a girl who I really despised asked me to take her to the Prom.  She was so ugly that she used to smear bacon grease on herself just so the dogs would lick her.  And she was so fat her bathtub had stretch marks.  But I digress.  When I wouldn't take her to the Prom she started an ugly rumor that I was gay.

It spread through the school like wildfire and I was completely ostracized.  It was so bad my parents contemplated a civil lawsuit for slander.  In the end they decided it would only make matters worse so they dropped it.

Please don't tell me how bad you had it because in all likelihood I had it much worse or at least as bad.

Things did change though.

After high school I kept growing.  Not too unusual except I did not stop until I was 30.  No medical doctor to date has been able to explain it.  I went from being 5' 10" and 145 pounds to being 6' 3" and 220.

Needless to say nobody picks on me very much these days.

School is tough and people are mean and NO! amount of lobbying is going to change that.

Sad, but true.  :frown:

I really wish you the best because I have been there.

Cheers, 


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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1133645 - 12/12/02 04:32 AM (20 years, 5 hours ago)

Yeah, kids will always be mean, but 50 years ago, it was probably the one black kid being called "nigger", and today it's the gay kid being called "faggot". You can't stop kids from being mean, but I think in the decades to come, homophobia will become less of a reason for it.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: Phluck]
    #1133653 - 12/12/02 04:37 AM (20 years, 5 hours ago)

Perhaps. As I said earlier I do not know of what kind of torments the kids in high school are going through now. I guess I was hoping it was already better. I guess that shows us where wishful thinking gets us.


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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1134436 - 12/12/02 02:11 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, I know pretty much firsthand about this. My highschool did have a gay club, and, of course, a handful of openly gay kids. They had a group of friends where they could belong, but they were still relentlessly tormented.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1134518 - 12/12/02 02:40 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Please don't tell me how bad you had it because in all likelihood I had it much worse or at least as bad.

I'm sorry... I wasn't meaning to imply that I have had the most horrible life there is; I was just trying to say that it still is hard living as a gay person these days. 

I don't think it matters who had a worse life or not.  Those things are in the past and we can choose whether we want to let them affect us now in the present.  Rather, we can choose how we let those things affect us.

I am very sorry for the hardships you've had, but there is no reason to say "I bet my life was harder!"  You are right; people are mean and there is no way for us to change that.  I think we can try to make some people be a little more accepting, though.

Love ya, Plato! :smile:

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1136128 - 12/13/02 12:51 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Love ya too, Steve.  I assumed you knew that. :smile:

Cheers,


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Anonymous

Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: chemkid]
    #1142390 - 12/15/02 02:29 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

I can't believe there are so many intolerant homophobes at such a place as the shroomery. I hope that someday the hateful ones amongst you will learn to accept people. It doesn't matter if it's genetic or it's a choice. I personally feel it's genetic. It's not that homosexuals "want" it to be genetic. They have personal experience of actually being gay, and most of them think that it's genetic. I've never been gay, so i'm gonna go with their opinion (which has actually been more or less proven by scientific studies) on this one.


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Importance of Genetic Homosexuality [Re: ]
    #1159464 - 12/21/02 12:39 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Homosexuality is evolutions way of population control.


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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