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OfflineSyle
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Christianity = Faith of the Lazy
    #5807819 - 06/30/06 11:24 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Okay, before anyone gets pissed off, let me explain :smile:

I want to talk about christianity only (even though some of my points may or may not pertain to other organized religions) because it's the biggest mainstream religion (in america anyhow). Also, I am not meaning to offend anyone whatsoever. And by all means, please, any christians, shut me up if you want...

...anyways, basically I see Christianity as a quick fix for most people. A get out of jail free card if you will.

Some people are brought up in a christian household and never have the opportunity to explore themselves and their own minds. Others merely pick up the bible and say, yeah, this sounds pretty good. Or others experience "a miracle" (such as surviving a car crash or waking up from a coma) and contribute that to jesus watching over them.

Okay, I am being a bit theatrical here, I know, but you get my point.

Where is the self discovery in christianity? Where is the work put in to discover who you really are? You slave your life in a church and constantly worrying about doing the "right" thing. Here is a thought, just be human. You are meant to be a human, that is why you were born as one. Don't try to change yourself into something you aren't. You error because that is in your nature. You have sex because you are meant to reproduce. You fight/kill because life is about survival of the fittest, pure and simple. Stop holding yourself up on a pedastal as some divine creature put here on earth as the center of all things. You aren't. We will all pass away into the void, much as the way we felt before birth.

Okay, let me get off my pedastal now...*clambers down in a frantic scurry*

What I am trying to say here is: explore. Figure out who you are. Try denying your god and your jesus. Tell them that this is your life, and they can't have it.


  /end ramble


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5807826 - 06/30/06 11:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You're referring to exoteric Christianity, not esoteric Christianity.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5807831 - 06/30/06 11:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Still, how do people get anything out of christianity when so little personal worth is used to really delve into their religion?

And don't tell me stuff like: they go to church, they pray, they do fundraisers. Almost every christian I know is one because their family is. Doesn't that seem unfair to anyone?


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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InvisibleSoY
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5807855 - 06/30/06 11:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It's sad really...the people that never get a chance.  :sad:  Faith is a cruel tool. People need to experience things firsthand. They need to question everything and analyze the evidence. For a religion to say "shut the hell up and believe because you're supposed to" is just not right. Or they put the guilt trip on you and tell you that if you don't just believe without a doubt then you won't be saved. Blind obedience is the only way for a lot of religions.

To me it makes the most sense to step back from all the biases and just experience the truth. Don't believe anything that you read or hear, just go and find out for yourself if it is real or not. :wink:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5807867 - 06/30/06 11:56 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

All faith is for the lazy. Spiritual belief should be based on personal experience.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSoY
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5807869 - 06/30/06 11:58 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Exactly :cool:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5807901 - 07/01/06 12:19 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
All faith is for the lazy. Spiritual belief should be based on personal experience.




Damn, wish I wasn't so long winded. Could have summed it all up with what you said there  :smile:


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5807926 - 07/01/06 12:32 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Dogma is to the soul what fast food is to the body, it may satiate but it tends to lead to the impediment of flow to the vital organs, particularly the brain, and can cause constipation.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


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InvisibleSoY
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5807941 - 07/01/06 12:39 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Excellent analogy Trepiodos! :rofl:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5808602 - 07/01/06 03:35 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I didn't just choose Christianity out of laziness. It found me. When you've had a direct experience of Christ's presence, it's hard not to find faith. I don't categorically accept the Church's teachings or Biblical infallibility. I have faith through experience. I cannot "just be human" when I've been given gnosis, because I have seen that our true nature is spirit, not body. Finding God is an indescribable experience, and I hope you can experience it one day, too. Not because I think you're going to hell or any bullshit like that. But simply because once you experience it, you will understand.


--------------------


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Silversoul]
    #5808698 - 07/01/06 03:57 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

People produce meaning for themselves, and experience that meaning. Are you in a position to propose that your meaning is more correct and real than their meaning?

I don't really know how else to address your self-described ramble, as it seems to be you responding to abstract concepts that you have created for yourself... I know not these Christians you refer to or their nature, and wonder that, if these are actual people, if your assumptions as to their nature and their experience are reflective of the reality of the matter.

Its almost as if you are addressing some aspect of yourself, some identity that you have formed, whether or not you consider that identity to represent "you" or an identity that you respond to.. either way, the identity is you.

You seem to be quite imaginative. :tongue:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5808727 - 07/01/06 04:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It's not that faith is bad, it's just that it doesn't really quite come out of a book. That could help you to experience it, but it is still up to you to experience it. With spiritual effort comes a great well of faith and devotion for the divine.


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InvisibleSoY
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: thatiAM]
    #5808769 - 07/01/06 04:17 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Faith put anywhere but in your own experiences is misplaced.... :shake:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


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OfflineSketchyTX05
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5809163 - 07/01/06 10:18 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
You're referring to exoteric Christianity, not esoteric Christianity.




I hope you looked at this post a little deeper.


Exoteric Christianity could be summed down to the kind of Christian you are talking about for the most part. These people likely half-hazardly believe, but let's assume for our sakes that they go to church every week and go through all of the motions. These are the folk who go to church to scratch the itch of 'show,' and 'make-believe' when they can truly feel like they have done something good by going to church. It solidifies the basis of their "faith." But, on the days they aren't going to church, many of these kinds of believers (the exoteric-styled if you will) find themselves living their own lives and not paying much attention to God.

I stopped beleiving in God for about 3 years. I was an athiest, and I argued with me some Christians indeed. I won a lot of the time too. But, by the third year coming, God and Jesus happened to slap me in the face. It is absolutely undeniable in my world the work He has done. But then, that's my world.

This is where the Esoteric Christianity comes in. I see now that for the first 15 years of my life, I really WASN'T believing in anything, even though I thought I was. Now that I'm back in Christianity, I see how much of a deeper concept it is. It goes right to your spiritual wants, and focuses on the execution of your flesh (the ego). It talks about karma plenty (in different words and phrases), denying yourself of your earthly posessions, the kindness you should not only SHOW to people, but feel.

It discusses the great love you should display to all people, the bible wants you to FORGET earthly matters -- because the Earth isn't what matters. It's the spiritual ascention of your soul. And THAT is neat stuff. The Book of Life has changed me completely since God showed himself to me.

I think, for all of you who don't believe in God at all (and believe me, I remember what that is like. It was nice.. but I assure you HAVING one is far far greater), I challenge you to do this: If there IS a God, you would certainly want to know about Him; when you're by yourself, ask earnestly to the supposed creator to show Himself to you.


(I was challenged to do that very thing, and about three months after I did it I was finally shown beyond doubt, and then I submitted and it was the best thing I have ever done. Ever. I reccomend this experience highly. Nothing is greater than walking with God. Nothing!)


Edited by SketchyTX05 (07/01/06 10:25 AM)


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OfflineSchwammel
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: SketchyTX05]
    #5809226 - 07/01/06 11:34 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Christianity is a language. Its a tool that you can pick up. If you get 10 people together and they're all talking the same language they transcend the individual experience and are enlightened?

I choose to enlighten myself, but its a tough pill to swallow


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: SketchyTX05]
    #5809227 - 07/01/06 11:35 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SketchyTX05 said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
You're referring to exoteric Christianity, not esoteric Christianity.




I hope you looked at this post a little deeper.


Exoteric Christianity could be summed down to the kind of Christian you are talking about for the most part. These people likely half-hazardly believe, but let's assume for our sakes that they go to church every week and go through all of the motions. These are the folk who go to church to scratch the itch of 'show,' and 'make-believe' when they can truly feel like they have done something good by going to church. It solidifies the basis of their "faith." But, on the days they aren't going to church, many of these kinds of believers (the exoteric-styled if you will) find themselves living their own lives and not paying much attention to God.

I stopped beleiving in God for about 3 years. I was an athiest, and I argued with me some Christians indeed. I won a lot of the time too. But, by the third year coming, God and Jesus happened to slap me in the face. It is absolutely undeniable in my world the work He has done. But then, that's my world.

This is where the Esoteric Christianity comes in. I see now that for the first 15 years of my life, I really WASN'T believing in anything, even though I thought I was. Now that I'm back in Christianity, I see how much of a deeper concept it is. It goes right to your spiritual wants, and focuses on the execution of your flesh (the ego). It talks about karma plenty (in different words and phrases), denying yourself of your earthly posessions, the kindness you should not only SHOW to people, but feel.

It discusses the great love you should display to all people, the bible wants you to FORGET earthly matters -- because the Earth isn't what matters. It's the spiritual ascention of your soul. And THAT is neat stuff. The Book of Life has changed me completely since God showed himself to me.

I think, for all of you who don't believe in God at all (and believe me, I remember what that is like. It was nice.. but I assure you HAVING one is far far greater), I challenge you to do this: If there IS a God, you would certainly want to know about Him; when you're by yourself, ask earnestly to the supposed creator to show Himself to you.


(I was challenged to do that very thing, and about three months after I did it I was finally shown beyond doubt, and then I submitted and it was the best thing I have ever done. Ever. I reccomend this experience highly. Nothing is greater than walking with God. Nothing!)




Him? How do you know God is a male?

It's stuff like this that makes me suspicious of christianity. There is too much random writing and too much room for personal input from random people millenia ago when the bible was written.

I actually DO believe in a higher power, but the only way I can describe it is that it's just the purest form of energy that can exist, and it connects everything in this universe together. The concept of a God is not tangible for our minds to comprehend, and much more complex and vast than a silly book written can even begin to describe.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5809236 - 07/01/06 11:41 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I actually DO believe in a higher power, but the only way I can describe it is that it's just the purest form of energy that can exist, and it connects everything in this universe together.




:thumbup:  I agree, though I do not necessarily see this power as "higher," since it is not above or beyond this experience.  What makes the most sense to me is that the connective, cooperative energy that comes together to create material reality is Love.  Not romantic love, not attachment love, not needy love, but the unconditional flow of unifying energy.  :heart:

To personify this as a vengeful, controlling, demanding father figure is very human, and very mistaken (IMO).  Perhaps we imagine Love is like the love we got from our parents?


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5809237 - 07/01/06 11:45 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

I actually DO believe in a higher power, but the only way I can describe it is that it's just the purest form of energy that can exist, and it connects everything in this universe together.




:thumbup:  I agree, though I do not necessarily see this power as "higher," since it is not above or beyond this experience.  What makes the most sense to me is that the connective, cooperative energy that comes together to create material reality is Love.  Not romantic love, not attachment love, not needy love, but the unconditional flow of unifying energy.  :heart:

To personify this as a vengeful, controlling, demanding father figure is very human, and very mistaken (IMO).  Perhaps we imagine Love is like the love we got from our parents?




I completely agree with you there. Why is God personified as a human like figure? With human emotions at times? Is this not the most selfish thing that can be done? Who are we to assume that the universal creator is in any way at all like us?


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5809267 - 07/01/06 12:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Perhaps to make the concept more "bite-sized"? Just as it is impossible for us to conceptualize infinity, it may be impossible to truly grasp the nature of Love (or Tao, or Universal Life Force).


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OfflineSketchyTX05
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5809393 - 07/01/06 12:58 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
Him? How do you know God is a male?

It's stuff like this that makes me suspicious of christianity. There is too much random writing and too much room for personal input from random people millenia ago when the bible was written.

I actually DO believe in a higher power, but the only way I can describe it is that it's just the purest form of energy that can exist, and it connects everything in this universe together. The concept of a God is not tangible for our minds to comprehend, and much more complex and vast than a silly book written can even begin to describe.





First of all, God is always refered to as "He" or "Him" in any biblical scrolls and text. But, also, you have to remember this: It's GOD. Not a human. He can't (though we refer to God as He/Him) be put into Male/Female categories like that. But, for the sake of convenience, we refer to God in that manner.


I can see that you are misunderstanding a lot of parts of Christianity. I'm not saying this to debunk your ideas on the world, but I certainly, above anything else, wish for you to not misrepresent Christianity in your mind. Please let this concept sink in: You're misunderstanding the most basic concepts!

For example: The bible was never meant to make us understand God. I agree with you -- no book can help us to anything like that. That isn't what the Bible is trying to do. The bible was NEVER meant to make us understand the entire concept. It's just pinning down the tangible parts so that we can apply it in some way to our life and believe in, not only the God of Abraham, but His Son as well.




_______________
The Old Testament (Before Jesus) showed us a lot about Gods personality and His power... but the old testament is mostly just a HUGE picture of what Jesus did. To be honest, the Old Testament isn't VERY important. It can't apply a whole lot to your life... (I wish SO badly you could see the value of this!)

The New Testament (Jesus and Post-Jesus) just shows us what Jesus did, and then the rest of it is a lot of letters from Paul showing us how to live a Christian life, and how much joy it is TO do just that. And, I can say for certain: I've had all the same inqueries as you did -- but once I saw God for myself and followed Jesus as His son, I have never been happier. It's the same for every other person who has been born again.
_______________




Besides, even aside from the spiritual part of the bible -- it's got a lot of cool stuff in it that we could relate to our lives and the things we've learned. A lot of us talk about these things here on the Forum -- or learn them when our egos are destroyed. The Bible can't JUST be looked at as this annoying christian Book about God, it can ALSO be looked at as, just like spiritual teachings in other parts of the world, a great guide for living and understanding.


Ecclesiates is what I'm talking about.



(Cycles)
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 Talks about different seasons for EVERYTHING.

(General Understanding)
Ecclesiastes 2:17-24 Everything you do in this life ends up going away. You are forgotten, and the people who would have remembered you will be forgotten. Everything here is pointless and ends up in the same place.

(Karma)
Ecclesiasties 11:1 Give your gifts generously, and they will come back to you

(Not Understanding God / Being Happy)
Ecclesiasties 3:9-13 People work hard, and we don't even know why we do it -- it's all for nothing. No one can see the entire scope of Gods work, so the best thing for people to do is to be happy and enjoy themselves as long as they can.



I wish you so well. I really do. God asks me (everyone) to love others... and if I sit here and revive the concept, I truly want you to understand these things because of my love for you. You could be a masterful influence, but you have to open yourself to the Light.


-Casey


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: SketchyTX05]
    #5809421 - 07/01/06 01:14 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Christianity is not the one and only path to the "light," and Biblical stories written by men are often used to generate negativity, rather than encourage positivity and love. This is the Christianity to which Syle is referring, not a heartfelt (and non-religious) connection with divinity. Why insist upon a particular form of communion with divinity, if the important point is Love and Light?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5809428 - 07/01/06 01:18 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Christianity is not even a guaranteed path to anywhere...the path is within the self...the religion is irrelevant if the path is blocked by the self.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5809479 - 07/01/06 01:33 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I agree. Personally, I don't think that religion is a spiritual path. When we place the location of divinity outside of ourselves, and set upon worshipping it as though we are lowly, we have veered away from the spirit and into the ego (which enjoys being pious as much as it enjoys being superior.)

My reference to the "one and only path" was related to what the prior poster said about Christianity, and did not reflect my belief that it is a valid path.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5809483 - 07/01/06 01:35 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

100%


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineSketchyTX05
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5809494 - 07/01/06 01:39 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Christianity is not the one and only path to the "light," and Biblical stories written by men are often used to generate negativity, rather than encourage positivity and love. This is the Christianity to which Syle is referring, not a heartfelt (and non-religious) connection with divinity. Why insist upon a particular form of communion with divinity, if the important point is Love and Light?





That kind of hurts. I know exactly what you mean and where you're coming from. Most of the bible that encourages certain types of behaviors weren't stories at all, though. They were letters written by a man named Paul who had deep rooted faith in Jesus Christ and took everything that he said from Jesus' teaching.

He wanted to share what Jesus Christ wanted to spread (and DID spread) to everyone he could. And, honestly, it is my great honor to be able to discuss these things with all of you even if you don't believe at all what I'm trying to say -- I just hope I'm not being a horrible example of what a Christian should be.

A lot of Christians I've known throughout my life have distorted the teachings of Jesus Christ and have used it as a catapult to judge. I'm so sorry that we have all been exposed to this. They may have judged, and not been much of an example, and then left a bad taste in your mouth about christianity... but it's a big belief of mine to go to the root of the word, not the examples you've seen, to get the truth for yourself.

Please, please, PLEASE don't judge christianity based on those people we've all seen who are truly fakers under a christian mask. Many of them may not understand, but you have the brain and the power to understand and practice the concepts taught in the bible.




(The Light we were talking about... granted by a non-christian belief, the light can come from many many different places and practices... but the definition of 'the light' changes with your beliefs. I didn't mean to offend anyone by putting it out there as if all believed that MY definition of light was their definition light too. Im terribly sorry!)


Edited by SketchyTX05 (07/01/06 01:47 PM)


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5809499 - 07/01/06 01:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
Almost every christian I know is one because their family is. Doesn't that seem unfair to anyone?




That's true, but the smart ones break out of the religious cycle. The weak hold onto their faith, the strong realize they are their own life's director. The people that turn from no religion to religion are something else, i'm not sure what...

I was educated in a catholic k-8 school, church every sunday because my parents made me go. It never made any sense to me, so I dropped religion. There was a lot of guilt inside of me for not believing what they were telling me to believe when I was younger, and for doing things the church would consider inappropriate. Since then I've come to feel almost hatred toward the church.


--------------------

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: SketchyTX05]
    #5809531 - 07/01/06 01:53 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I've read the Bible, as well as any other religious texts I could get my hands on, and many of the meaningful ideas are reiterated throughout world religions. However, the core idea that man is meant to worship just DOES NOT work for me.

Philosophically, I have no problem with Biblical ideas such as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," or "love thy neighbor as thyself," but when they are integrated into a system which seems calculated to separate us both from our divine nature AND those who do not share our particular religious beliefs, they seem hypocritical and surface-oriented.


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: TODAY]
    #5809536 - 07/01/06 01:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TODAY said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Almost every christian I know is one because their family is. Doesn't that seem unfair to anyone?




That's true, but the smart ones break out of the religious cycle. The weak hold onto their faith, the strong realize they are their own life's director. The people that turn from no religion to religion are something else, i'm not sure what...

I was educated in a catholic k-8 school, church every sunday because my parents made me go. It never made any sense to me, so I dropped religion. There was a lot of guilt inside of me for not believing what they were telling me to believe when I was younger, and for doing things the church would consider inappropriate. Since then I've come to feel almost hatred toward the church.




If I were in your shoes, I bet I would be feeling pity rather than hate for the church. Although, some people are so comfortable in their faith and their beliefs that they fear nothing; a concept that seems somewhat comfortable (however ignorant it may be, particularly those who never had a choice to find any other forms of beliefs) but also frightening to the point of fanaticism.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Silversoul]
    #5809978 - 07/01/06 04:39 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I didn't just choose Christianity out of laziness.  It found me.  When you've had a direct experience of Christ's presence, it's hard not to find faith.  I don't categorically accept the Church's teachings or Biblical infallibility.  I have faith through experience.  I cannot "just be human" when I've been given gnosis, because I have seen that our true nature is spirit, not body.  Finding God is an indescribable experience, and I hope you can experience it one day, too.  Not because I think you're going to hell or any bullshit like that.  But simply because once you experience it, you will understand.




Once you have tasted honey, you would know its sweetness directly, and therefore would no longer require "faith" in how that honey is any longer. :grin: :japsmile:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Sinbad]
    #5810076 - 07/01/06 05:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Unfortunately, Christianity isn't a sensation.


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5810184 - 07/01/06 06:00 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Where is the self discovery in christianity? Where is the work put in to discover who you really are?

The Holy Spirit shows His people who they are and who God is, it is part of conversion. Every convert is shown sin, righteousness and judgment. No one is a Christian who has not been convicted of their sinnership by the power of the Holy Spirit.


You slave your life in a church and constantly worrying about doing the "right" thing.

Being a Christian is not about "going to a church" and worrying. You have many misconceptions about these things.


Here is a thought, just be human. You are meant to be a human, that is why you were born as one. Don't try to change yourself into something you aren't. You error because that is in your nature. You have sex because you are meant to reproduce. You fight/kill because life is about survival of the fittest, pure and simple. Stop holding yourself up on a pedastal as some divine creature put here on earth as the center of all things. You aren't.

You have stated many things that you believe in the above statement. God's people are made a new creation, and become people with a different nature after they are converted. Life is not about mere physical survival. The belief you have is the belief in no belief.

We will all pass away into the void, much as the way we felt before birth.

That is your belief, however I know I will not pass into a void, but have eternal life.

What I am trying to say here is: explore. Figure out who you are. Try denying your god and your jesus. Tell them that this is your life, and they can't have it.

This is an impossible request for someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and believes God's testimony as true. God's people are taught by Him, and have the seal of the Spirit and confirmation of the Word to their souls.

The vast majority of called "Christians" simply do not believe the gospel. They have concocted a false jesus out of their own vain imaginations. This jesus does not exist, and they are still under God's wrath.


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: fivepointer]
    #5810364 - 07/01/06 07:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I don't know where the bible sits with me, but I would like to add that religion takes more of bum rap than it deserves, most Americans aren't even religious, they're aware of religion but they don't practice any particular faith really, Most people have a somewhat of conception of their own personal good without alot of religious influence, maybe its due to a factor of fear, or survival, why people get along,

and thats just it, they're just getting along, they don't really like one another to the point that you can say hey we're friends, we often try to make each others life harder than it really needs to be, and I say this is not due to religion, but because we don't have a spiritual understanding, we have more of an understanding of dollars and cents, its too easy to point the finger at Christianity, and say its their fault, I don't know,

I don't really feel the love in America and I don't really assess this to Christianity, I think its more of the stuff of what the Bible was trying to teach us, that we ignore, such as self sacrifice, not being greedy, not being lazy, stupid, envious, prideful, etc. , anyways this doesn't mean I'm Christian, but I'd be reluctant to adopt the beliefs of the skeptical majority that can't really get along,


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5810521 - 07/01/06 08:24 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Actually, most Americans identify themselves as Christian.  According to The American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS), conducted in 2001,  out of 50,281 American residential households, nearly 80% were some variety of Christian.

The "skeptical majority" does not exist, as those who self-identified as non-religious/atheist/agnostic amounted to a mere 15% of the households surveyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Religious_affiliation

Many religious leaders actively encourage discrimination and hatred of "sinners," a group which usually includes single mothers, homosexuals, feminists, atheists/agnostics, controversial authors, and anyone else whom they can direct a Bible verse at.  :thumbdown:

Certainly there are many problems which do not originate from organized religion, but this does not mean that religion is getting a "bad rap."


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5810531 - 07/01/06 08:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Think about this- every facet of human knowledge since the dawn of time has been changing with new discoveries EXCEPT spirituality and it doesn't make ANY SENSE! Chemistry, biology, medicine, psychology, mathematics, EVERYTHING has been revamped at some point in time, except religion. This is because we used reasoning and experiments to determine the true relationships between us, our lives, and our environment. Religion has no place in science because it doesn't hold up to reason.
The bible, quaran, and torah are all at least a thousand years old. Almost EVERY belief about relationships in the human experience have been changed in the last 600 years. We believed the sun rotated around the earth, and wound's should be treated with bandages and boiling hot oil. Then one day a doctor didnt have oil so he just used a bandage and it healed much faster.
Religion was introduced to make humans better in society. Someone believing they will serve ETERNITY in fire by mistreating other people (lying, stealing, cheating) will try not to piss off their God, therefore be a better person. It also seems much more inviting than reason. Say your son contracts leukemia, and on the way to the hospital lightning takes out a power line in front of your car, killing your wife. Based on reason alone, your life, once full of love and happiness, is now very miserable. But if you believe God came for them because it was their time, and they are now in eternal bliss and happiness in a Cloud city where you will join them and everyone else you loved, then it will seem like destiny, and it will be at least bearable.
Religion has its purposes, it gives hope and guidance to many, but the suffering it causes is much worse. More people have died in the name of God than for any other un-natural reason. Religion is always taken out of its original context, a recent example is the protests at soldiers' funerals, inspired by the lovely christian site godhatesamerica.com

If we are to advance as humans, we must disregard everything we think we know about religion, and start anew, basing our knowledge of it on an empirical level.


--------------------
remember magic eye!?

I can't even begin to know what I'm getting into.


Edited by sup3rhuman (07/02/06 02:58 AM)


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: sup3rhuman]
    #5810604 - 07/01/06 09:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


most Americans identify themselves as Christian




I didn't say Chritian, I said religous, yeah an how accurate is a survey, someone maybe technically Christian, this is not what I consider a Christian, are they a practicing Christian, do they go to church, prey everyday to Jesus, No, most people aren't die hard Christians, I mean look at this forum, does its sounds like that everybody is a die hard Christian, the majority are skeptics, trust me, Your data and sources or giving you a false impression, This data is based off counting baptisms or some obscure source, Even thoughs who consider themselves Christian, are hardly into the faith to make significant difference in their lives,

Quote:


Many religious leaders actively encourage discrimination and hatred of "sinners," a group which usually includes single mothers, homosexuals, feminists, atheists/agnostics, controversial authors, and anyone else whom they can direct a Bible verse at.




I'm not totally sticking up for Christianity, I mean the whole thing about prosposed prophets preforming false mircles in the name of God, such as Benny Henn, he preys on suckers and commits fraud, but forget what these people do, you can't judge Christianity based on this, the bible and many other Christians don't condone these actions, there is definitly a population of these people, but even if there were a million, they would still be a small minority

I'm looking more at everyday people, I think there are much more people who really aren't concerned or worried about religous persecution, they have different worries, and different outlooks that really don't entertain religion that much.


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5811105 - 07/02/06 12:42 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyot said:

All faith is for the lazy. Spiritual belief should be based on personal experience.




How can you believe what you experience if you have no faith in yourself?


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: justAkid]
    #5811214 - 07/02/06 01:38 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You don't need faith if you have certain knowledge. Faith is for those that do not know. I have certain knowledge in my spiritual beliefs.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5811420 - 07/02/06 03:22 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
Still, how do people get anything out of christianity when so little personal worth is used to really delve into their religion?

And don't tell me stuff like: they go to church, they pray, they do fundraisers. Almost every christian I know is one because their family is. Doesn't that seem unfair to anyone?




I'm not really sure what you're referring to. From my experience of places of worship, such as Churches, Hindu Temples, and Mosques, the experience of congregation seems neither pathological or unenjoyed. Many enjoy worship, and many enjoy worship with others.

As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?

Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them :rolleyes:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5811620 - 07/02/06 05:36 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Faith in knowledge has two sides. One can make one blind (to the things we don't know yet), but the other makes the knowledge applicable in the first place.
Nice paradox. imho.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5811756 - 07/02/06 08:33 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
All faith is for the lazy. Spiritual belief should be based on personal experience.




With all the historical and even contemporary prejudice against 'gnosis' (spiritual knowledge) coming from Literalist Christendom, those people all ignore the obvious. St. Paul - the very architect of Christian doctrine - was a self-righteous Jew who was going about with thugs, 'stoning' Christians to death! (Which is why St. Stephen, the first Christian martyr who was 'stoned to death' became the 'patron saint' of the Grateful Dead). But more to the point, Paul was a murderer until he had a classic religious experience. A bright light blinded him (for days according to his letter) and a voice from no apparent locus of origin spoke to him. True or not, that experience on the road to Damascus converted him into a follower of Jesus, called Christ.

In another place, Paul obliquely referring to himself ("I knew a man in Christ...") relates his experience of being "caught up to the third heaven" (which reveals a certain knowledge [gnosis] of the kinds of heavens in his world view), and further, "whether in the body or out of the body, I know not." So here, he has a very Gnostic experience of being aware, yet he doesn't know whether he is still an embodied being or an unembodied being. He says "...God knoweth..." This relates the Mystery of our true nature - one which was projected onto Jesus as having had an 'apparent' body. We all have apparent bodies, relative to our true nature if we are imperishable Consciousness. This Realization constitutes the true Gnosis, which is why the Gnostics embraced Paul as their own. Paul was the 'Captain Trips' of early Christianity!

Paul speaks much of faith, but the obvious thing is that without FIRST having had an Experience, he would not have had faith in Christ as The Way (to be, to God). From a Gnostic psychology, Psychic Christians are those Christians who must rely upon faith, because they themselves have not had such transcendental experiences. It is, Biblically speaking, a higher condition to adopt the experience of others through faith than to insist on having the experience oneself. To the most Gnostic of the early Christians Jesus says:

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen andyet have believed." - John 20:29

It is childlike to trust in this Way, and for those Pneumatic Christians who have had transcendental experiences which convinced and converted them to Christ, it is faith in the authenticity of one's own experience that sustains one afterwards. For Psychic Christians, the Light of Heaven may not dawn until one leaves the embodied state in physical death, and faith in Heaven is equivalent to faith in God. I believe that your meaning is that people who merely say "I believe in God" and leave it at that are lazy. Correct me if I'm wrong. There is nothing transforming about saying/thinking these words if one does not live in prayer - in moment-to-moment comm[union] with God.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: sup3rhuman]
    #5811806 - 07/02/06 09:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sup3rhuman said:
Think about this- every facet of human knowledge since the dawn of time has been changing with new discoveries EXCEPT spirituality and it doesn't make ANY SENSE! Chemistry, biology, medicine, psychology, mathematics, EVERYTHING has been revamped at some point in time, except religion. This is because we used reasoning and experiments to determine the true relationships between us, our lives, and our environment. Religion has no place in science because it doesn't hold up to reason.
  The bible, quaran, and torah are all at least a thousand years old. Almost EVERY belief about relationships in the human experience have been changed in the last 600 years. We believed the sun rotated around the earth, and wound's should be treated with bandages and boiling hot oil. Then one day a doctor didnt have oil so he just used a bandage and it healed much faster.
Religion was introduced to make humans better in society. Someone believing they will serve ETERNITY in fire by mistreating other people (lying, stealing, cheating) will try not to piss off their God, therefore be a better person. It also seems much more inviting than reason. Say your son contracts leukemia, and on the way to the hospital lightning takes out a power line in front of your car, killing your wife. Based on reason alone, your life, once full of love and happiness, is now very miserable. But if you believe God came for them because it was their time, and they are now in eternal bliss and happiness in a Cloud city where you will join them and everyone else you loved, then it will seem like destiny, and it will be at least bearable.
Religion has its purposes, it gives hope and guidance to many, but the suffering it causes is much worse. More people have died in the name of God than for any other un-natural reason. Religion is always taken out of its original context, a recent example is the protests at soldiers' funerals, inspired by the lovely christian site godhatesamerica.com

If we are to advance as humans, we must disregard everything we think we know about religion, and start anew, basing our knowledge of it on an empirical level.





Well, with string theory and M theory suggesting a multiple or even infinte dimensional universes, these scienfitific views seem to be comming very close to Tibetan Buddhist philosophy and Vedic knowledge about matter, anti-matter, infinty, etc.

All varities of Buddism, Hinduism and other various traditions are still very much practiced as religion all over the world. :cool:


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5811835 - 07/02/06 09:50 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You did not bother to read the actual data source to which I provided a link. This was a survey in which 50,000+ Americans were asked what their religious affiliation was, if any. You claimed that Americans were not religious, and not into practicing any particular faith, and I refuted that claim.

Though many on this forum are skeptics, this is NOT the case in "everyday" America. How else would the televangelists be making millions from their flocks? How else would Bush get away with saying that God wanted him to invade Iraq? Why else would schools be banning books?

Religious belief, however faulty it may be in practice, is THE NORM in the U.S.


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5811872 - 07/02/06 10:46 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


You did not bother to read the actual data source to which I provided a link. This was a survey in which 50,000+ Americans were asked what their religious affiliation was, if any. You claimed that Americans were not religious, and not into practicing any particular faith, and I refuted that claim.




I didn't need to bother looking at that survey, look at your number 50,000+ were asked of their affiliation, considering theres close to 300 million people that live in the U.S. alone, 50,000 being affiated hardly proves anything, like I said you need to start questioning your sources,

Being affilated means very little also, I'm afflilated and my whole family afflilated, shoot your probably afflilated but out of the affflilates, how many takes it serious, in my family only 2 people out of say about 20 affliates takes it serious, meaning they go to church, prey, and practice their faith. Most have their serious doubts and don't really get into religion that much, especially the ones that had it rambed down their throat,

Televanglists make millions through T.V. and they have a strong flock, but there are many other industries making millions off their flock as well, look at all the gamblers in America, their making billons off their flock, so is everybody a compulsive gambler as well, or how about pizza take out, millions made, but I don't buy pizza, you can't make you conclusions based off this

For George W, most people don't even vote, especially the youth, and people who vote tend to be same ones that go to church, are conservative and so forth, Besides Al Gore won the popular vote, and he wouldn't of never invaded, plus you got the propaganda machine in full effect, obsecuring the fact to justify the cause, beside America is stupied, George gets elected not based on real issues but on issues like Gay mirrage, he going for that ignorant target audience that does exist, but this doesn't represent America, Its always the few who ruin it for the whole, my state didn't vote for his him, Its all this stupied southern red neck pride BS, IMO this doesn't support everybody being a practicing Christian,


Edited by capliberty (07/02/06 11:15 AM)


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5811895 - 07/02/06 11:11 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You are correct. I think we are on the same wavelength here. To give lip service to something that one has not experienced first hand is blind. A lot of (not all) Christian belief in America today is fear based....any blind decision made from irrational fear is a bad one. As always Markos you give me new insight into the Christian tradition that I was never exposed to in my little corner of the universe.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5811902 - 07/02/06 11:14 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You clearly do not understand research sampling! A random survey of 50,000 Americans is amply representative of the U.S. population. If we contrast your statement that the majority are skeptics with the survey results that nearly 80% of Americans self-identify as Christian, there is clearly no factual basis for your assertion.

As to whether these people who claim to be Christians actually practice the tenets of their religion, that is another matter entirely. You stated that most Americans are not concerned with religion, that they do not believe in any particular faith, and that the majority are skeptics. You have no basis for this assertion beyond your opinion.

I am not affiliated with any religion, nor have I ever been. If asked what my religion affiliation is, if any (the survey script), I would answer "none." This places me very much in the minority.


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5811925 - 07/02/06 11:25 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I should note that most Americans idea of spiritual practice is lip service alternating with blind adherance to fear based doctrines devised by authority figures. I did say most...not all. I agree that most Americans claim a spiritual tradition, but it should be mitigated slightly by the fact that most Americans are full of shit.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5811930 - 07/02/06 11:26 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I agree.  That makes them hypocrites, though, not skeptics.  :grin:


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5811933 - 07/02/06 11:27 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ahh 50,000 out of 300,000,000, no that is not an ample representation, get off it, everybody knows how stupied surveys are, 50,000 is not the majority of americans, where did you get 80% from this, this only looks at affliation as well, I'm saying practicing, as far as I'm concern you have no basis neither, your argument on this survey is totally stupied


Edited by capliberty (07/02/06 11:28 AM)


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5811945 - 07/02/06 11:33 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

true


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5811947 - 07/02/06 11:35 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Come down my way, brother...you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a self proclaimed (and self righteous) Christian.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5811957 - 07/02/06 11:40 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Whatever dude thats just another presumptous judgment like anybody elses,


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5811964 - 07/02/06 11:45 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

No it is fact...I am not presuming. I know my community...hell I have lived in it for nigh 40 years.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5811968 - 07/02/06 11:47 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Look at who is running this country (USA) it is apparent that a warped version of the Christian tradition is dictating policy to us...look at US money...In God We Trust...you must be fucking blind.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5811975 - 07/02/06 11:52 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I dat gone you live up neir 40 dat gum yrs up in nar, I heres yeah, dat gummit,


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5811995 - 07/02/06 12:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The survey of 50,000 found that 80% of those surveyed were Christians, not that this sample was 80% of the U.S. population. :rolleyes:

The larger the population to be surveyed, the smaller the sample can be and still be representative.  This is basic Probability and Statistics 201 at any University.

Even if we jump to the conclusion that ALL surveys are fatally flawed, where is the support for your claim that the majority are skeptics?  Perhaps you could say that the majority are hypocrites, who pose as Christians while practicing nothing, but that is far from showing that the majority are skeptics.  Most of the world population says that they believe in God.  That is not a skeptical POV.

I agree that most people who claim to be Christian do not practice the core ideals of Christianity.  This might be a better place if they did.  :shrug:  We'll probably never know.

BTW, if you cannot prove your points, saying that someone else's argument is "stupied" [sic] is not the best counter-argument.  :lol:


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5812000 - 07/02/06 12:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

:smile:


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5812020 - 07/02/06 12:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ok


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5812055 - 07/02/06 12:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


The larger the population to be surveyed, the smaller the sample can be and still be representative




that makes real sense, the smaller the sample the better representation, how about asking the communites and sectors of people that didn't bother to answer this survey, how about running survey on this forum, or how about asking the millions of gamblers in America if they're practicing Christians, Or all the people in the sex industries if they're practicing Christians, How about all the people who are turned off by Christianity, was their a survey on them, Or all the other ethnic groups that live in America, where was this survey tooken, if It was under some vote ballet, then this doesn't represent anyone except people who go out and vote,

Besides I don't take fluff classes like statistics and probability. Why do you have to make a class for such a thing when all it is math, those classes are trying to put some subjective opinion in simple math, If I want to crunch numbers I'll take high levels of math, and figure probability from there, Which is alot more accurate that using simple math along with case studies,


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5812073 - 07/02/06 12:42 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It was a random sample, not a self-selected or focus group survey, which makes it more statistically representative. This may not create a perfect representation of American practices, but it is certainly more reliable than your opinion.

Are you claiming that your personal observation of discussions at the Shroomery and in your home town is more valid than a large-scale random sample of Americans?

Whatever your opinion of statistical methods may be, this is the way research is conducted, and IMO the self-identification of a large, random sample of Americans is a valid measure of whether Americans are religious (however imperfect their practice) or skeptical (aka agnostic).

As this thread is about the general laziness of passively identifying oneself with a religion, rather than actively pursuing spiritual growth and awareness of divinity, the fact that those who self-identify as Christian don't practice what they preach is highly relevant.

I do not blame Christianity for all the problems in the U.S., but the so-called Christians ARE the majority in this country, and it shows.


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5812097 - 07/02/06 12:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

50,000 is not qualifable to say its random, where was random survey taken, off the streets, in the city, well we're talking about city dwellers, or voter, or middle class people, or a particular age group, if its not done in all sectors then its not random,

Look surveys are done all the time, I know about them, Its not like I'm not aware of them, surveys are taken under funding, If someone wants a consensus opinion he can manufacture it, Look at Paul Allen a billionaire, when he needed votes to create a new stadium, he funded a consesus opinion of votes that agreed with his views, Their are too many biases on theses surveys to make them accurate, A survey can even make some one more ignorant of the truth, because it obsecures the facts, to support a particular view, by not counting all the variables involved, in fact I see more accuracy in my own day to day encounters than relying on some funded survey, just cause u hold it dear to you and this is some supposed practice, doesn't mean you have any better of argument, and
I see you making the same character judgements about Christians with no revelant basis, so please, spare me.


Edited by capliberty (07/02/06 01:09 PM)


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5812123 - 07/02/06 01:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Support for my argument that most Americans believe in God, identify as Christians, and are NOT skeptics/agnostics:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/2001-12-24-religion.htm
http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/
http://www.religioustolerance.org/christ.htm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,99945,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/wat/archive/wat042400.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/CBSNews_polls/religion_041306.pdf

Support for your argument that the majority of Americans are skeptics/agnostics, are not influenced by religion, and do not practice any particular faith:

(*your opinion, no link available)

You cannot debate with mere opinion to support your arguments, and that is the fact of the matter.  If you cannot offer anything beyond continuing to stress that your opinion is more valid than actual data, you do not have an argument.

We shall have to agree to disagree on this one.  I see far too many examples of hypocritical Christian influence in society to accept that Christianity is a positive (or even neutral) force in our country, nor  that Christians (hypocrites or not) are a minority.

If everyone is a skeptic, then why all the churches?  They sure look full on Sundays when I go by on my way to living a non-Christian life.  :grin:


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5812160 - 07/02/06 01:21 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


I see far too many examples of hypocritical Christian influence in society to accept that Christianity is a positive (or even neutral) force in our country, nor that Christians (hypocrites or not) are a minority.
Quote:



and this is just an opinion with no factual or accurate data to support it, but yet you seemed pretty convinced, or maybe you made a few correlations that suggest that you have an accurate opinion,

I base my opinion on my data and experiences as well, and your survey is not accurate data, being it such a small sample, less than 1% of the American population, you have to say its inaccurate to certain degree, which makes this nothing more than an opinion


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5812189 - 07/02/06 01:35 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

As you have not studied statistical sampling methods, you have no knowledge from which to form an assessment of the sample size.  :shrug:

I am not basing my opinion on my experiences alone, and that is where we diverge.  If you do a tiny amount of research, even just a quick internet search on the subject, you will see that religious groups AND atheist groups agree on the high percentage of believers in America today.  Who is manufacturing survey results to support their agenda in this scenario? 

You are sticking your head in the sand, IMO.  If you are basing your assertions on data, then where is it?  If it only exists inside your mind, then it is far less valid than the MANY surveys I have linked to in this thread.

Even if we only compare your established opinion to ONE survey, you have not personally asked 50,000 Americans about their religious beliefs, much less all 300 million, so your sample size is far, far smaller, and it is flawed because it is a convenience sample (i.e. people who happen to be around you).


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5812199 - 07/02/06 01:37 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Still, how do people get anything out of christianity when so little personal worth is used to really delve into their religion?

And don't tell me stuff like: they go to church, they pray, they do fundraisers. Almost every christian I know is one because their family is. Doesn't that seem unfair to anyone?




I'm not really sure what you're referring to. From my experience of places of worship, such as Churches, Hindu Temples, and Mosques, the experience of congregation seems neither pathological or unenjoyed. Many enjoy worship, and many enjoy worship with others.

As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?

Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them :rolleyes:




I was generalizing when I should have been more specific. I was referring to people who are born into a christian family and don't generally get the chance to explore other views and theories.

About people not enjoying worship: it might just be my personal experience, but when I was growing up, all I could hear my friends and other family members talk about on Saturday was, "Man, we have church tommorow...sigh". Perhaps this is just my ignorance, but that is the way I have always seen it.

"As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?"

Because christianity and other world religions have been the sole cause of war, violence, and hatred for who knows how long. That is the reason for this speculation.

"Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them"

So what, just because it's not the 90s doesn't make these points or "rants" any less relevant.


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https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5812594 - 07/02/06 04:18 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
From my experience of places of worship, such as Churches, Hindu Temples, and Mosques, the experience of congregation seems neither pathological or unenjoyed. Many enjoy worship, and many enjoy worship with others.




From my experiences of various Christian churches, both Protestant and Catholic, "mass" or "the service" seems entirely based on mob mentality and the willingness to convert a lot of preachy noise into information.

Quote:

Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways.




:rolleyes:
Maybe I would accept this argument if I was a thirteen year old schoolgirl...


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5812604 - 07/02/06 04:22 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

:lol:

Like, omigod, ranting about Christianity is, like, soooo O-ver!


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5813005 - 07/02/06 07:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Christianity is more for the weak than the lazy; they simply can't deal with death. They had to make up a wonderful place and add rules to enter it so christians don't just kill themselves to get there.

p.s. Christianity isn't any worse than other religions, theyre all in the same boat too.


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: sup3rhuman]
    #5813011 - 07/02/06 07:12 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I agree sup3r, in my first post I stated that I was just trying to keep this to christianity for simplicities sake.

Very good point about it being more weak than lazy. Wish I could rephrase that now :/


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5814035 - 07/03/06 12:55 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl:

You don't need faith if you have certain knowledge. Faith is for those that do not know. I have certain knowledge in my spiritual beliefs.




You obviously trust yourself if you believe what knowledge you have. If you had no faith in your knowledge you would believe nothing. If there is no faith, there is only skepticism, and no beliefs.


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5814208 - 07/03/06 01:53 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

and the willingness to convert a lot of preachy noise into information.




What? Care to rephrase that, I'm not sure what that means.. :shrug:


--------------------


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: sup3rhuman]
    #5814215 - 07/03/06 01:54 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sup3rhuman said:
Christianity is more for the weak than the lazy; they simply can't deal with death. They had to make up a wonderful place and add rules to enter it so christians don't just kill themselves to get there.

p.s. Christianity isn't any worse than other religions, theyre all in the same boat too.




You have absolutely no clue. Better to lurk and listen instead of making puerile statements.


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: sup3rhuman]
    #5814217 - 07/03/06 01:55 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sup3rhuman said:
Christianity is more for the weak than the lazy; they simply can't deal with death. They had to make up a wonderful place and add rules to enter it so christians don't just kill themselves to get there.

p.s. Christianity isn't any worse than other religions, theyre all in the same boat too.




You gave me an idea for a new thread. Thank you.


--------------------


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5814281 - 07/03/06 02:25 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Still, how do people get anything out of christianity when so little personal worth is used to really delve into their religion?

And don't tell me stuff like: they go to church, they pray, they do fundraisers. Almost every christian I know is one because their family is. Doesn't that seem unfair to anyone?




I'm not really sure what you're referring to. From my experience of places of worship, such as Churches, Hindu Temples, and Mosques, the experience of congregation seems neither pathological or unenjoyed. Many enjoy worship, and many enjoy worship with others.

As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?

Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them :rolleyes:




I was generalizing when I should have been more specific. I was referring to people who are born into a christian family and don't generally get the chance to explore other views and theories.

About people not enjoying worship: it might just be my personal experience, but when I was growing up, all I could hear my friends and other family members talk about on Saturday was, "Man, we have church tommorow...sigh". Perhaps this is just my ignorance, but that is the way I have always seen it.

"As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?"

Because christianity and other world religions have been the sole cause of war, violence, and hatred for who knows how long. That is the reason for this speculation.

"Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them"

So what, just because it's not the 90s doesn't make these points or "rants" any less relevant.




Does war seem Christ-like to you? If you answer "No", then you have just defended Christianity.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5815220 - 07/03/06 11:31 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

A lot of people here aren't actually hating on Christianity.

They are hating far more on what many misguided humans have done to it! I'm certainly not here to argue with anyone, but I do feel a great need to share my perspective here. Not because I'm particularly the best person to do it, but I feel like I can agree with a lot of the non-christians here, and agree with the christians.

You guys are all arguing about different things. Non-christians (The ones that are attacking Christianity-Gone-Wrong, and not Christianity) are talking about facts and figures and simply saying the entire mass of these people who claim to be christian aren't really much of a representation. Among other things said.

The Christians are saying that, yes, while this might be true, WE'VE found that most "christians" we run into are not christians at all... but believe that they are because that is what they have told themselves. (And in reply, non-christians say: "prove it.")


Imagine for one moment that Christianity is actually a REAL thing. Just for kicks. God is up there, and man has free will, and Satan can influence man if Man is weak enough to listen. What better way to make people HATE christianity than to influence a mass of weak people to lazy belief where they still continue their pointless material lives, hatefully judging, condemning, being self-righteous, and not in any way actually being spiritual. What better plan could their be for Satan to turn people away?

What I intend to illustrate is this: ALL of our experiences with "Christians" can tell us easily that something is wrong with the religion. Its a lack of spirituality, I believe. Most of these people we run into, who say very heartily that they are Christians, still live here in the world -- which was never part of what Christians were supposed to do. We were never supposed to care about Laguna Beach. We were never supposed to care about getting a Ferrarri. Never. We were supposed to follow the Word of God -- but how many "christians" do it?

They're a RARE breed. Very rare. In fact, I would say the 1-2 in 20 is a good estimate. If not even more rare. And that, dear friends, is scary indeed.

Once more -- I really don't want to get on anyones bad side. I know we all have different opinions here -- and these discussions can get intense because this is a HUGE issue in our minds; from what we understand about OUR world, it just doesn't make sense for someone to believe in something else. But, we're ALL on the path we're on, and that's all there is to it. There isn't any need to get angry (though I see how easy it could be!). Peace should fill this thread. Peace, and maybe some understanding.

Who can argue with this: A new commandment I give to you: Love each other!


That is the christian way.


-Casey


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: SketchyTX05]
    #5815267 - 07/03/06 11:49 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup:  Good points.

I have often mentioned that the core beliefs of Christianity (and many other world religions) are excellent guidelines for living.  The trouble is the other "details" that creep in, such as guilt, power tripping and superiority. Though few Christians (IMO) actually practice what they preach, they all claim to be TRUE Christians, and often claim that all others are lost and going to Hell.

Organized religion is a great opportunity for those seeking power over others to influence the masses--and they do.  It is also a way for those who fear taking responsibility for their own lives to abdicate & turn over the power to someone in religious authority.  Yuck.

The practice of any religion is a personal matter, as is the decision not to practice a religion.  When it steps outside the personal realm, and into the realm of power, control, legal enforcement, judgment and oppression of non-believers/sinners, it has ceased to be sacred and become profane.


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OfflineSketchyTX05
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5815341 - 07/03/06 12:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I agree! I've even seen those qualities creep into my life! No one is exempt, but I guess you have to really be on your toes -- not only in organized religion, but, perhaps, especially organized religion.

Yes. I agree.


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5815797 - 07/03/06 02:25 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Still, how do people get anything out of christianity when so little personal worth is used to really delve into their religion?

And don't tell me stuff like: they go to church, they pray, they do fundraisers. Almost every christian I know is one because their family is. Doesn't that seem unfair to anyone?




I'm not really sure what you're referring to. From my experience of places of worship, such as Churches, Hindu Temples, and Mosques, the experience of congregation seems neither pathological or unenjoyed. Many enjoy worship, and many enjoy worship with others.

As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?

Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them :rolleyes:




I was generalizing when I should have been more specific. I was referring to people who are born into a christian family and don't generally get the chance to explore other views and theories.

About people not enjoying worship: it might just be my personal experience, but when I was growing up, all I could hear my friends and other family members talk about on Saturday was, "Man, we have church tommorow...sigh". Perhaps this is just my ignorance, but that is the way I have always seen it.

"As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?"

Because christianity and other world religions have been the sole cause of war, violence, and hatred for who knows how long. That is the reason for this speculation.

"Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them"

So what, just because it's not the 90s doesn't make these points or "rants" any less relevant.




Does war seem Christ-like to you? If you answer "No", then you have just defended Christianity.




You know as well as I do that that is BS. Wars have been fought for centuries in the name of christianity.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5815849 - 07/03/06 02:39 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, but that would be Christianity in name only.  Anyone who was obeying the commandment "thou shalt not kill" could not participate in a war.  The Bible did not include a disclaimer "unless the other guy really really pissed you off, or had oil you would like to use, or land you would like to build a McDonald's on."  :lol:

The so-called Christians who participated in the Crusades, who shoot doctors who perform abortions, who beat Matthew Shepherd to death for being homosexual, who lynched African-Americans for being "colored," or any other atrocities justified under the blanket of religious righteousness, ARE NOT FOLLOWING CHRIST.

:shrug:  Religion may not be for me, but I cannot deny that the core beliefs of most world religions are sound, and everyone would benefit  if the believers actually put them into action.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5815857 - 07/03/06 02:43 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

How about you provide some evidence to back up your claim?


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5816083 - 07/03/06 03:48 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, but that would be Christianity in name only.  Anyone who was obeying the commandment "thou shalt not kill" could not participate in a war.  The Bible did not include a disclaimer "unless the other guy really really pissed you off, or had oil you would like to use, or land you would like to build a McDonald's on."  :lol:

The so-called Christians who participated in the Crusades, who shoot doctors who perform abortions, who beat Matthew Shepherd to death for being homosexual, who lynched African-Americans for being "colored," or any other atrocities justified under the blanket of religious righteousness, ARE NOT FOLLOWING CHRIST.

:shrug:  Religion may not be for me, but I cannot deny that the core beliefs of most world religions are sound, and everyone would benefit  if the believers actually put them into action.




Good points.

I definentely agree with that last paragraph.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5818752 - 07/04/06 05:17 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Still, how do people get anything out of christianity when so little personal worth is used to really delve into their religion?

And don't tell me stuff like: they go to church, they pray, they do fundraisers. Almost every christian I know is one because their family is. Doesn't that seem unfair to anyone?




I'm not really sure what you're referring to. From my experience of places of worship, such as Churches, Hindu Temples, and Mosques, the experience of congregation seems neither pathological or unenjoyed. Many enjoy worship, and many enjoy worship with others.

As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?

Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them :rolleyes:




I was generalizing when I should have been more specific. I was referring to people who are born into a christian family and don't generally get the chance to explore other views and theories.

About people not enjoying worship: it might just be my personal experience, but when I was growing up, all I could hear my friends and other family members talk about on Saturday was, "Man, we have church tommorow...sigh". Perhaps this is just my ignorance, but that is the way I have always seen it.

"As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?"

Because christianity and other world religions have been the sole cause of war, violence, and hatred for who knows how long. That is the reason for this speculation.

"Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them"

So what, just because it's not the 90s doesn't make these points or "rants" any less relevant.




Does war seem Christ-like to you? If you answer "No", then you have just defended Christianity.




You know as well as I do that that is BS. Wars have been fought for centuries in the name of christianity.




I'm asking you a simple question, does war seem Christ-like to you?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5819228 - 07/04/06 11:34 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I'm asking you a simple question, does war seem Christ-like to you?



"Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy"
- Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:7

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God"
- Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:9

"...love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."
- Jesus Christ, Luke 6:27-28

"Whatever you do to the least of my brethren, that you do unto me"
- Jesus Christ, Matthew 25:40
Notice that Christ didn't say, "Whatever you do to the least of my brethren living within the same political boundaries as you, that you do unto me."


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5819573 - 07/04/06 01:14 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Still, how do people get anything out of christianity when so little personal worth is used to really delve into their religion?

And don't tell me stuff like: they go to church, they pray, they do fundraisers. Almost every christian I know is one because their family is. Doesn't that seem unfair to anyone?




I'm not really sure what you're referring to. From my experience of places of worship, such as Churches, Hindu Temples, and Mosques, the experience of congregation seems neither pathological or unenjoyed. Many enjoy worship, and many enjoy worship with others.

As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?

Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them :rolleyes:




I was generalizing when I should have been more specific. I was referring to people who are born into a christian family and don't generally get the chance to explore other views and theories.

About people not enjoying worship: it might just be my personal experience, but when I was growing up, all I could hear my friends and other family members talk about on Saturday was, "Man, we have church tommorow...sigh". Perhaps this is just my ignorance, but that is the way I have always seen it.

"As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?"

Because christianity and other world religions have been the sole cause of war, violence, and hatred for who knows how long. That is the reason for this speculation.

"Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them"

So what, just because it's not the 90s doesn't make these points or "rants" any less relevant.




Does war seem Christ-like to you? If you answer "No", then you have just defended Christianity.




You know as well as I do that that is BS. Wars have been fought for centuries in the name of christianity.




I'm asking you a simple question, does war seem Christ-like to you?




At the heart of christianity, no. Just as all (or most) organized religions go though, we both know that this is not the case. War and violence has been carried out in the name of religions forever, since their conception. I don't care if "that isn't how christianity SHOULD be", the fact is, that is the way it is.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5819771 - 07/04/06 02:17 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

So you acknowledge the problem is with the followers, not the mythology that makes up modern Christianity? This is where I'm stumped - you acknowledge that at the core Christianity is Goodness and Kindness, yet instead of condemning selective interpretations of Christian mythology, you attack the mythology itself still. :shrug:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5820276 - 07/04/06 04:53 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
So you acknowledge the problem is with the followers, not the mythology that makes up modern Christianity? This is where I'm stumped - you acknowledge that at the core Christianity is Goodness and Kindness, yet instead of condemning selective interpretations of Christian mythology, you attack the mythology itself still. :shrug:




Yes, I acknowledge that. Doesn't change my views on the vast majority of the people in that faith though.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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OfflineSchwammel
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5820393 - 07/04/06 05:20 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

we'll as long as Christianity is Goodness and Kindness how can it be the mythology..., of the choosen one!

is it a myth or is it real?


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Schwammel]
    #5820690 - 07/04/06 06:46 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

As Limp Biz-quick said,"its all about faith!" Did he even say that?


--------------------


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Schwammel]
    #5820799 - 07/04/06 07:25 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Mythology is allegorism and symbolism that attempts to express a Truth


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineSchwammel
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5820867 - 07/04/06 07:45 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

that attempts the truth?

without a purpose!

wahts the point....


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Schwammel]
    #5820872 - 07/04/06 07:48 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Allegory and Symbol


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5821114 - 07/04/06 09:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

i've been thinking about Christianity as lazy recently.

It's not so much about Jesus, because you have to make a leap of faith somewhere.

But saying Jesus isn't real..... then he's just a pacifier. It's easy to swallow. It's mysticism completely personified. It gives you a sense of authority, both to follow, and to have protect you. Similar to how putting "an Army of ONE" stickers on your car after 9/11 might make you feel "hey, I'm safe, these guys have guns and bombs and they kick ass.... I will support them"

Assuming Jesus is real then the question is... what is his salvation? For all his followers, how many can work miracles, and how many have the holy spirit? The holy spirit to me means something more than "I feel happy" because it's good to feel happy, that must mean you are on the right rack, but it's more like "I can touch you and align your chakras and blow out energy blockages." and "I have attained eternal life here in the present."

Where is Jesus's Christ-consciousness? It seems pretty hard to get. So because most Christians seem to be normal people, I would say, lazy religion. Pacifier. Doesn't work right.

I would say Buddhists seem more peaceful and evolved than Christians.... who feel that they ahve to do nothing in order to be "saved" whereas Buddhists think the human life is absurdly rare and precious, and hard work must be done in order to purify oneself for higher enlightenments till nirvana.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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OfflineSchwammel
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: leery11]
    #5821181 - 07/04/06 09:23 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

its just me, myself and I...

nobody else


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