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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: sup3rhuman]
    #5811806 - 07/02/06 09:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sup3rhuman said:
Think about this- every facet of human knowledge since the dawn of time has been changing with new discoveries EXCEPT spirituality and it doesn't make ANY SENSE! Chemistry, biology, medicine, psychology, mathematics, EVERYTHING has been revamped at some point in time, except religion. This is because we used reasoning and experiments to determine the true relationships between us, our lives, and our environment. Religion has no place in science because it doesn't hold up to reason.
  The bible, quaran, and torah are all at least a thousand years old. Almost EVERY belief about relationships in the human experience have been changed in the last 600 years. We believed the sun rotated around the earth, and wound's should be treated with bandages and boiling hot oil. Then one day a doctor didnt have oil so he just used a bandage and it healed much faster.
Religion was introduced to make humans better in society. Someone believing they will serve ETERNITY in fire by mistreating other people (lying, stealing, cheating) will try not to piss off their God, therefore be a better person. It also seems much more inviting than reason. Say your son contracts leukemia, and on the way to the hospital lightning takes out a power line in front of your car, killing your wife. Based on reason alone, your life, once full of love and happiness, is now very miserable. But if you believe God came for them because it was their time, and they are now in eternal bliss and happiness in a Cloud city where you will join them and everyone else you loved, then it will seem like destiny, and it will be at least bearable.
Religion has its purposes, it gives hope and guidance to many, but the suffering it causes is much worse. More people have died in the name of God than for any other un-natural reason. Religion is always taken out of its original context, a recent example is the protests at soldiers' funerals, inspired by the lovely christian site godhatesamerica.com

If we are to advance as humans, we must disregard everything we think we know about religion, and start anew, basing our knowledge of it on an empirical level.





Well, with string theory and M theory suggesting a multiple or even infinte dimensional universes, these scienfitific views seem to be comming very close to Tibetan Buddhist philosophy and Vedic knowledge about matter, anti-matter, infinty, etc.

All varities of Buddism, Hinduism and other various traditions are still very much practiced as religion all over the world. :cool:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5811835 - 07/02/06 09:50 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You did not bother to read the actual data source to which I provided a link. This was a survey in which 50,000+ Americans were asked what their religious affiliation was, if any. You claimed that Americans were not religious, and not into practicing any particular faith, and I refuted that claim.

Though many on this forum are skeptics, this is NOT the case in "everyday" America. How else would the televangelists be making millions from their flocks? How else would Bush get away with saying that God wanted him to invade Iraq? Why else would schools be banning books?

Religious belief, however faulty it may be in practice, is THE NORM in the U.S.


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5811872 - 07/02/06 10:46 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


You did not bother to read the actual data source to which I provided a link. This was a survey in which 50,000+ Americans were asked what their religious affiliation was, if any. You claimed that Americans were not religious, and not into practicing any particular faith, and I refuted that claim.




I didn't need to bother looking at that survey, look at your number 50,000+ were asked of their affiliation, considering theres close to 300 million people that live in the U.S. alone, 50,000 being affiated hardly proves anything, like I said you need to start questioning your sources,

Being affilated means very little also, I'm afflilated and my whole family afflilated, shoot your probably afflilated but out of the affflilates, how many takes it serious, in my family only 2 people out of say about 20 affliates takes it serious, meaning they go to church, prey, and practice their faith. Most have their serious doubts and don't really get into religion that much, especially the ones that had it rambed down their throat,

Televanglists make millions through T.V. and they have a strong flock, but there are many other industries making millions off their flock as well, look at all the gamblers in America, their making billons off their flock, so is everybody a compulsive gambler as well, or how about pizza take out, millions made, but I don't buy pizza, you can't make you conclusions based off this

For George W, most people don't even vote, especially the youth, and people who vote tend to be same ones that go to church, are conservative and so forth, Besides Al Gore won the popular vote, and he wouldn't of never invaded, plus you got the propaganda machine in full effect, obsecuring the fact to justify the cause, beside America is stupied, George gets elected not based on real issues but on issues like Gay mirrage, he going for that ignorant target audience that does exist, but this doesn't represent America, Its always the few who ruin it for the whole, my state didn't vote for his him, Its all this stupied southern red neck pride BS, IMO this doesn't support everybody being a practicing Christian,


Edited by capliberty (07/02/06 11:15 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5811895 - 07/02/06 11:11 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You are correct. I think we are on the same wavelength here. To give lip service to something that one has not experienced first hand is blind. A lot of (not all) Christian belief in America today is fear based....any blind decision made from irrational fear is a bad one. As always Markos you give me new insight into the Christian tradition that I was never exposed to in my little corner of the universe.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5811902 - 07/02/06 11:14 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You clearly do not understand research sampling! A random survey of 50,000 Americans is amply representative of the U.S. population. If we contrast your statement that the majority are skeptics with the survey results that nearly 80% of Americans self-identify as Christian, there is clearly no factual basis for your assertion.

As to whether these people who claim to be Christians actually practice the tenets of their religion, that is another matter entirely. You stated that most Americans are not concerned with religion, that they do not believe in any particular faith, and that the majority are skeptics. You have no basis for this assertion beyond your opinion.

I am not affiliated with any religion, nor have I ever been. If asked what my religion affiliation is, if any (the survey script), I would answer "none." This places me very much in the minority.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5811925 - 07/02/06 11:25 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I should note that most Americans idea of spiritual practice is lip service alternating with blind adherance to fear based doctrines devised by authority figures. I did say most...not all. I agree that most Americans claim a spiritual tradition, but it should be mitigated slightly by the fact that most Americans are full of shit.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5811930 - 07/02/06 11:26 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I agree.  That makes them hypocrites, though, not skeptics.  :grin:


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5811933 - 07/02/06 11:27 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ahh 50,000 out of 300,000,000, no that is not an ample representation, get off it, everybody knows how stupied surveys are, 50,000 is not the majority of americans, where did you get 80% from this, this only looks at affliation as well, I'm saying practicing, as far as I'm concern you have no basis neither, your argument on this survey is totally stupied


Edited by capliberty (07/02/06 11:28 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5811945 - 07/02/06 11:33 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

true


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5811947 - 07/02/06 11:35 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Come down my way, brother...you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a self proclaimed (and self righteous) Christian.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5811957 - 07/02/06 11:40 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Whatever dude thats just another presumptous judgment like anybody elses,


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5811964 - 07/02/06 11:45 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

No it is fact...I am not presuming. I know my community...hell I have lived in it for nigh 40 years.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5811968 - 07/02/06 11:47 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Look at who is running this country (USA) it is apparent that a warped version of the Christian tradition is dictating policy to us...look at US money...In God We Trust...you must be fucking blind.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5811975 - 07/02/06 11:52 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I dat gone you live up neir 40 dat gum yrs up in nar, I heres yeah, dat gummit,


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5811995 - 07/02/06 12:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The survey of 50,000 found that 80% of those surveyed were Christians, not that this sample was 80% of the U.S. population. :rolleyes:

The larger the population to be surveyed, the smaller the sample can be and still be representative.  This is basic Probability and Statistics 201 at any University.

Even if we jump to the conclusion that ALL surveys are fatally flawed, where is the support for your claim that the majority are skeptics?  Perhaps you could say that the majority are hypocrites, who pose as Christians while practicing nothing, but that is far from showing that the majority are skeptics.  Most of the world population says that they believe in God.  That is not a skeptical POV.

I agree that most people who claim to be Christian do not practice the core ideals of Christianity.  This might be a better place if they did.  :shrug:  We'll probably never know.

BTW, if you cannot prove your points, saying that someone else's argument is "stupied" [sic] is not the best counter-argument.  :lol:


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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5812000 - 07/02/06 12:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

:smile:


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5812020 - 07/02/06 12:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ok


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5812055 - 07/02/06 12:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


The larger the population to be surveyed, the smaller the sample can be and still be representative




that makes real sense, the smaller the sample the better representation, how about asking the communites and sectors of people that didn't bother to answer this survey, how about running survey on this forum, or how about asking the millions of gamblers in America if they're practicing Christians, Or all the people in the sex industries if they're practicing Christians, How about all the people who are turned off by Christianity, was their a survey on them, Or all the other ethnic groups that live in America, where was this survey tooken, if It was under some vote ballet, then this doesn't represent anyone except people who go out and vote,

Besides I don't take fluff classes like statistics and probability. Why do you have to make a class for such a thing when all it is math, those classes are trying to put some subjective opinion in simple math, If I want to crunch numbers I'll take high levels of math, and figure probability from there, Which is alot more accurate that using simple math along with case studies,


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5812073 - 07/02/06 12:42 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It was a random sample, not a self-selected or focus group survey, which makes it more statistically representative. This may not create a perfect representation of American practices, but it is certainly more reliable than your opinion.

Are you claiming that your personal observation of discussions at the Shroomery and in your home town is more valid than a large-scale random sample of Americans?

Whatever your opinion of statistical methods may be, this is the way research is conducted, and IMO the self-identification of a large, random sample of Americans is a valid measure of whether Americans are religious (however imperfect their practice) or skeptical (aka agnostic).

As this thread is about the general laziness of passively identifying oneself with a religion, rather than actively pursuing spiritual growth and awareness of divinity, the fact that those who self-identify as Christian don't practice what they preach is highly relevant.

I do not blame Christianity for all the problems in the U.S., but the so-called Christians ARE the majority in this country, and it shows.


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5812097 - 07/02/06 12:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

50,000 is not qualifable to say its random, where was random survey taken, off the streets, in the city, well we're talking about city dwellers, or voter, or middle class people, or a particular age group, if its not done in all sectors then its not random,

Look surveys are done all the time, I know about them, Its not like I'm not aware of them, surveys are taken under funding, If someone wants a consensus opinion he can manufacture it, Look at Paul Allen a billionaire, when he needed votes to create a new stadium, he funded a consesus opinion of votes that agreed with his views, Their are too many biases on theses surveys to make them accurate, A survey can even make some one more ignorant of the truth, because it obsecures the facts, to support a particular view, by not counting all the variables involved, in fact I see more accuracy in my own day to day encounters than relying on some funded survey, just cause u hold it dear to you and this is some supposed practice, doesn't mean you have any better of argument, and
I see you making the same character judgements about Christians with no revelant basis, so please, spare me.


Edited by capliberty (07/02/06 01:09 PM)


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