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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,788
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
    #1075541 - 11/22/02 02:16 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

I have not found my actions to be guided by anyone but myself, at least most of the time. I would say I have free will.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinebluesky
mushroom cowboy

Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 561
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
    #1075557 - 11/22/02 02:25 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Well Phluck, I see your point, but I was coming from a Christian point of view. In some cases people dont have complete free will, that is from other people. But you do have free will from god. God didnt come here and say "you gotta believe this." You can believe whatever you want. The question is: does having faith in another or no God come with a price?


--------------------
You're my blue sky, you're my sunny day,
Lord you know it makes me high when you turn your love my way. Turn your love my waaaaaay, Yea.
-Richard (Dickey) Betts


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: Faith. [Re: bluesky]
    #1075572 - 11/22/02 02:36 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

I definitely have to agree with you that free will is lost if we knew of God's existance. My question is why the religeous extremists want to take away the free will that God has supposedly given us by making laws banning pornography, gay marriages, etc. If everyone complies with God's supposed will because it's the law to do so, would that mean everyone gets a free ticket to heaven? I doubt it, so why do these religious fucks try and pass these damn laws?


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Faith. [Re: bluesky]
    #1075573 - 11/22/02 02:36 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

I don't believe we are judged when we die. I believe in a different sort of hell- you go there if your soul is not balanced enough, ie- like having a bad trip when on psykadelliks.

Heaven is just the 4th dimension.

All religions I believe have some sort of truth to them, I reccomed studing them and taking parts from each to fit what you believe. Spirituality (imo) is mostly learned through thinking and introspection.....mushrooms help thow.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offlinebluesky
mushroom cowboy

Registered: 09/04/02
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Re: Faith. [Re: Murex]
    #1075580 - 11/22/02 02:39 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Murex, Im with you 110% on that call!!!!!  :laugh: :laugh: :grin: 

I do piece together my own ideas through many religons. I believe that everything in existance is composed of different types of energy, and when these energies are combined, you have god. God (to me) is the ultimate energy force. Although my beliefs are not concrete, I have faith in myself to make the right decisions towards my spirituality. :smirk: I believe that psychedelics are a tool to helping me understand this.


--------------------
You're my blue sky, you're my sunny day,
Lord you know it makes me high when you turn your love my way. Turn your love my waaaaaay, Yea.
-Richard (Dickey) Betts


Edited by bluesky (11/22/02 02:47 AM)


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Faith. [Re: bluesky]
    #1075705 - 11/22/02 03:34 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Yeah, my beliefs aren't quite solid yet either, but that's not a bad thing. The journey is more important than the destanation sometimes. I'd be a fool to think I know it all.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
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Re: Faith. [Re: Murex]
    #1075847 - 11/22/02 04:23 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

In my humble opinion, the destination does not matter nearly as much as the journey. Present.


--------------------


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Faith. [Re: bluesky]
    #1077084 - 11/22/02 04:11 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

I'm not exactly sure what free will is supposed to mean.

Given the same situation twice, would we always make the same choice? If all of our past experiences were identical, all of our fears and biases the same, would we always make the same choice?

If that's the case, are we really just machines? If that's not the case, then what's the alternative? Just making choices at random?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinechristian
christian
Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 2
Loc: still trying to figur out...
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
    #1182946 - 01/01/03 01:32 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

If a quote out of the bible would offend you then stop reading here. Im not a bible thumping, church every sunday, telling everyone how to live type christian. Christ said "because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can move a mountain". Now that tells me, too many other things in this world, hinder my ability to be closed minded in the belief in a one true God who sent his son to take away all of my sins. So im very open in my ways of thinking, and percieving this world of reality. This is my first visit here. I looked at a couple of post and must have just clicked on a few that critized the christian faith. sorry to vent,,last you'll here from me on faith! "Faith you say?" I wish I had it. Still trying.......


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OfflineTannis
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Registered: 12/13/01
Posts: 508
Loc: MD.USA
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
    #1184523 - 01/02/03 09:24 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

To me faith is in knowing that I don't have all the answers and that I need a power greater than myself to give me direction to sort it all out.

The more I learn, the more I realize that I simply don't know much.....


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Faith. [Re: christian]
    #1184713 - 01/02/03 10:19 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I never said I'd be offended by the bible.

Why is the bible right and the Koran wrong?

"So im very open in my ways of thinking, and percieving this world of reality."

No you're not. You're only open to your own kind of thinking. You refuse to be open to opposing ideas, which is exactly what the definition of an open mind is. You may believe whole-heartedly that Jesus died for your sins, but the only evidence you have is an old book, which appears to any rational person to be a work of fiction.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
    #1184998 - 01/02/03 12:12 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

~
the awesome drama of nature
unfold before my very eye
before that eye I I which
sees all and knows all.
and on
and on
inside goes:
AUM MANI PADME HUM
always bringing me right to my heart
where I dwell eternally
~ pg. 4 - Be Here Now

~
Ask anybody, just anybody
They'll tell you that the antibody to the petty
Potty mouth gots to be
Success at something
To be the best of something
And not to stress the dumb shit
Cause you ain't missing nothing
You got to

Motivate, accelerate, never wait, know your weight, throw away hate
Grow and make weight of your older dates
Elevate, concentrate, get your focus straight, and orchestrate fate
Just motivate, accelerate, never wait, show the way, no escape
Take hold and shift shape, live a longer day
Elevate, concentrate, get your focus straight, and orchestrate fate
~ Blackalicious - Release (Lyrics Born)


dunno babe, but sure sounds like a sneer of superiority on yer behalf - as if everyone with faith could be clumped together (a whole spectrum of cats out there who embrace this notion of faith) and termed arrogant. i can't tell you why your wrong - once you get out of yer own skin you can tell yourself, you'll have a better notion of what you were and what you're becoming.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Faith. [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1185032 - 01/02/03 12:25 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I understand how great and comforting faith is. Heroin is the same way.

Faith is lying to yourself until you believe the lies.

I'm sorry if my opinions don't rhyme, go well to music, or include fancy metaphores. I'm sorry if I don't have any bad poetry written by acid gurus to back up my ideas. I take style over substance.

"as if everyone with faith could be clumped together (a whole spectrum of cats out there who embrace this notion of faith) and termed arrogant."

Their personalities may not be arrogant, but they share a trait which is most certainly arrogant. Why do they think that their beliefs are correct? There is absolutely no solid evidence, and there are always people with opposing beliefs with an equal amount of evidence. So how could they possibly come to the conclusion that these beliefs are accurate? Even if god himself appears before them, how do they know it's not just a hallucination?

Humans are stupid. There is no possible way to truly understand the way the universe works. There will always be unanswered questions. With enough arrogance, you can convince yourself that you do know the answers to these questions. It's comforting and it feels great "knowing" that you understand everything. It's still baseless and silly.



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
    #1185233 - 01/02/03 01:47 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"I understand how great and comforting faith is. Heroin is the same way."

No, heroin is a turn-off drug, ultimately leading one to oblivion. its effect are hardly even perceptible to the consciousness of healthy people, where the pleasure experienced by the psychopathic user is equivalent to that felt by normal people most of the time, it appears as a bolt of joy to the user because his ordinary state is one of accute misery. It's numbing out psychological pain for the psychopath, where the healthy person gets a physical pain killer.

Faith is more comparable to LSD, which moves one towards a state of excitation. You can verify this for yourself by going to the right spiritual retreat, getting away from your material worries, through meditating, singing, dancing, drumming, sweat lodging, whatever it being - giving praise to that sensation of inner-joy and community.

YOUR state of hyper-excitation reminds me of speed, and whether you explain or unexplain the universe to somebody, rest assured in the back of their mind they just want to escape you, because very few people can stand rationalists as such.

If you don't join in with those who are on a path to heightened states of joy, you don't get to enjoy yourself. Do as thou wilt.



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Faith. [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1185283 - 01/02/03 02:17 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"its effect are hardly even perceptible to the consciousness of healthy people, where the pleasure experienced by the psychopathic user is equivalent to that felt by normal people most of the time, it appears as a bolt of joy to the user because his ordinary state is one of accute misery. It's numbing out psychological pain for the psychopath, where the healthy person gets a physical pain killer."

You don't know much about heroin I guess, or the definition of "psychopath". It's an opiate, it causes a great deal of euphoria, and can even induce quite elaborate hallucinatory dreams. I don't get the impression you've ever tried heroin.

Faith is numbing. It means you don't have to think. It's comforting and warm and wonderful. It's not a real answer though. It has no basis. It prevents you from actually having to think about reality. You don't need to, you already "know" the answers.

"If you don't join in with those who are on a path to heightened states of joy, you don't get to enjoy yourself. Do as thou wilt."

You know in those zombie movies where people are one by one being brainwashed or something and they're all like "join us, it is so wonderful, join us and you'll see". I prefer freedom of thought to blind stupid fun faith.

"If you don't join in with those who are on a path to heightened states of joy, you don't get to enjoy yourself."

I have many moments in my life that I would easily describe as "pure joy". Who says you need to believe in a stupid fairy tale to feel joy? Just because this doesn't fit into your narrow minded view that only faith can do this doesn't mean that it's not true.

"YOUR state of hyper-excitation reminds me of speed, and whether you explain or unexplain the universe to somebody, rest assured in the back of their mind they just want to escape you, because very few people can stand rationalists as such."

Hey, I've got lots of friends, and people seem to find me pretty agreeable. I just happen to not believe in things that I have no reason to believe in.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
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Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
    #1185293 - 01/02/03 02:23 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with you Phluck, no religon is the absolute truth.

That is why people should find the way on their own.  :wink:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Faith. [Re: Murex]
    #1185298 - 01/02/03 02:25 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"That is why people should find the way on their own."

I don't think that people's own delusions have any basis either.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offline3eyedgod
trippinkid

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Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
    #1185511 - 01/02/03 04:22 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

"That is why people should find the way on their own."

I don't think that people's own delusions have any basis either. 




Damn Phluck! Your shooting everyone down today. 

Just chill out, kick back, and smoke some ganja man :wink:


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
    #1185675 - 01/02/03 06:04 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"You don't know much about heroin I guess, or the definition of "psychopath". It's an opiate, it causes a great deal of euphoria, and can even induce quite elaborate hallucinatory dreams. I don't get the impression you've ever tried heroin."

Simply put, your impression is wrong. While my impression of the substance is based on a limited amount of experience (whereas I've had more than several hundred psychedelic experiences), I can safely say that my experiences were not pleasurable, like I consider making love, the psychedelic experience, playing around with a guitar, or hangin' out playing nintendo with my little half-brother to be. My experiences were as if though I was hanging on a thread between awareness and sleep. I consistently would feel withdrawn and about to nod off - they were interesting experiences that were moderately euphoric (i've tasted many an exotic substance, mind you) - but were they exceedingly enjoyable? Nawwww... I personally enjoy sleep more (and as fascinating as dreams are, I vastly enjoy being awake more than dreaming) And yes, I absolutely see the heroin addict as psychopathic (otherwise known as anti-social personality disorder) - if you're willing to lose your sexuality and that mysterious faculty called freedom, just to escape the terrors that were slowly escalating and underming your identity (only those who have had a nightmare of a "psychotic experience" can empathize fully empathize with such a choice) AND yank my stereo system to support this decision, that's VERY psychopathic.

"Faith is numbing. It means you don't have to think. It's comforting and warm and wonderful. It's not a real answer though. It has no basis. It prevents you from actually having to think about reality. You don't need to, you already "know" the answers."

"I have many moments in my life that I would easily describe as "pure joy". Who says you need to believe in a stupid fairy tale to feel joy? Just because this doesn't fit into your narrow minded view that only faith can do this doesn't mean that it's not true."


Sure, I've seen that brand of faith. I recognize that people do beam out to themselves "feel safe" vibrations by believing in a stupid fairy tale. This happiness is just a mediocre state for a middle class existance. Check out the "Yahoo Chat" Religion room, and you will see the epitomy of how needy, emotionally masturbating, down-right sick and zombified people can get.

Fuck Phluck, for all it's worth I don't have faith, for faith is just a word, and words seem worthless in expressing anything about where I am at to you - they become a mere weight pressing against my thoughtlessness, which, I know by heart.

.



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Faith. [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1185898 - 01/02/03 08:07 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Heh, I'm sure I've smoked enough ganja.

My point is basically that believing in anything is completely futile, ridiculous, and arrogant. Whether it's the God that the bible has laid out for you, or the mysterious elves you conjured up while on ten hits of acid. They're still just ideas and nothing more. There is no real basis.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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