Home | Community | Message Board

Gaiana.nl
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5812123 - 07/02/06 01:04 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Support for my argument that most Americans believe in God, identify as Christians, and are NOT skeptics/agnostics:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/2001-12-24-religion.htm
http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/
http://www.religioustolerance.org/christ.htm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,99945,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/wat/archive/wat042400.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/CBSNews_polls/religion_041306.pdf

Support for your argument that the majority of Americans are skeptics/agnostics, are not influenced by religion, and do not practice any particular faith:

(*your opinion, no link available)

You cannot debate with mere opinion to support your arguments, and that is the fact of the matter.  If you cannot offer anything beyond continuing to stress that your opinion is more valid than actual data, you do not have an argument.

We shall have to agree to disagree on this one.  I see far too many examples of hypocritical Christian influence in society to accept that Christianity is a positive (or even neutral) force in our country, nor  that Christians (hypocrites or not) are a minority.

If everyone is a skeptic, then why all the churches?  They sure look full on Sundays when I go by on my way to living a non-Christian life.  :grin:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinecapliberty
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1,949
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5812160 - 07/02/06 01:21 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


I see far too many examples of hypocritical Christian influence in society to accept that Christianity is a positive (or even neutral) force in our country, nor that Christians (hypocrites or not) are a minority.
Quote:



and this is just an opinion with no factual or accurate data to support it, but yet you seemed pretty convinced, or maybe you made a few correlations that suggest that you have an accurate opinion,

I base my opinion on my data and experiences as well, and your survey is not accurate data, being it such a small sample, less than 1% of the American population, you have to say its inaccurate to certain degree, which makes this nothing more than an opinion


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5812189 - 07/02/06 01:35 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

As you have not studied statistical sampling methods, you have no knowledge from which to form an assessment of the sample size.  :shrug:

I am not basing my opinion on my experiences alone, and that is where we diverge.  If you do a tiny amount of research, even just a quick internet search on the subject, you will see that religious groups AND atheist groups agree on the high percentage of believers in America today.  Who is manufacturing survey results to support their agenda in this scenario? 

You are sticking your head in the sand, IMO.  If you are basing your assertions on data, then where is it?  If it only exists inside your mind, then it is far less valid than the MANY surveys I have linked to in this thread.

Even if we only compare your established opinion to ONE survey, you have not personally asked 50,000 Americans about their religious beliefs, much less all 300 million, so your sample size is far, far smaller, and it is flawed because it is a convenience sample (i.e. people who happen to be around you).


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSyle
Kenai Sigh
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 6,678
Loc: WA
Last seen: 2 months, 12 days
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5812199 - 07/02/06 01:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Still, how do people get anything out of christianity when so little personal worth is used to really delve into their religion?

And don't tell me stuff like: they go to church, they pray, they do fundraisers. Almost every christian I know is one because their family is. Doesn't that seem unfair to anyone?




I'm not really sure what you're referring to. From my experience of places of worship, such as Churches, Hindu Temples, and Mosques, the experience of congregation seems neither pathological or unenjoyed. Many enjoy worship, and many enjoy worship with others.

As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?

Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them :rolleyes:




I was generalizing when I should have been more specific. I was referring to people who are born into a christian family and don't generally get the chance to explore other views and theories.

About people not enjoying worship: it might just be my personal experience, but when I was growing up, all I could hear my friends and other family members talk about on Saturday was, "Man, we have church tommorow...sigh". Perhaps this is just my ignorance, but that is the way I have always seen it.

"As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?"

Because christianity and other world religions have been the sole cause of war, violence, and hatred for who knows how long. That is the reason for this speculation.

"Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them"

So what, just because it's not the 90s doesn't make these points or "rants" any less relevant.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5812594 - 07/02/06 04:18 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
From my experience of places of worship, such as Churches, Hindu Temples, and Mosques, the experience of congregation seems neither pathological or unenjoyed. Many enjoy worship, and many enjoy worship with others.




From my experiences of various Christian churches, both Protestant and Catholic, "mass" or "the service" seems entirely based on mob mentality and the willingness to convert a lot of preachy noise into information.

Quote:

Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways.




:rolleyes:
Maybe I would accept this argument if I was a thirteen year old schoolgirl...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5812604 - 07/02/06 04:22 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

:lol:

Like, omigod, ranting about Christianity is, like, soooo O-ver!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinesup3rhuman
Padawan
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Orion
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5813005 - 07/02/06 07:10 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Christianity is more for the weak than the lazy; they simply can't deal with death. They had to make up a wonderful place and add rules to enter it so christians don't just kill themselves to get there.

p.s. Christianity isn't any worse than other religions, theyre all in the same boat too.


--------------------
remember magic eye!?

I can't even begin to know what I'm getting into.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSyle
Kenai Sigh
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 6,678
Loc: WA
Last seen: 2 months, 12 days
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: sup3rhuman]
    #5813011 - 07/02/06 07:12 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I agree sup3r, in my first post I stated that I was just trying to keep this to christianity for simplicities sake.

Very good point about it being more weak than lazy. Wish I could rephrase that now :/


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflinejustAkid
Member of myCulture

Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 323
Loc: The Present
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5814035 - 07/03/06 12:55 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl:

You don't need faith if you have certain knowledge. Faith is for those that do not know. I have certain knowledge in my spiritual beliefs.




You obviously trust yourself if you believe what knowledge you have. If you had no faith in your knowledge you would believe nothing. If there is no faith, there is only skepticism, and no beliefs.


--------------------
Trust thyself.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBasilides
Servent ofWisdom
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5814208 - 07/03/06 01:53 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

and the willingness to convert a lot of preachy noise into information.




What? Care to rephrase that, I'm not sure what that means.. :shrug:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 9 months, 30 days
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: sup3rhuman]
    #5814215 - 07/03/06 01:54 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sup3rhuman said:
Christianity is more for the weak than the lazy; they simply can't deal with death. They had to make up a wonderful place and add rules to enter it so christians don't just kill themselves to get there.

p.s. Christianity isn't any worse than other religions, theyre all in the same boat too.




You have absolutely no clue. Better to lurk and listen instead of making puerile statements.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBasilides
Servent ofWisdom
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: sup3rhuman]
    #5814217 - 07/03/06 01:55 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sup3rhuman said:
Christianity is more for the weak than the lazy; they simply can't deal with death. They had to make up a wonderful place and add rules to enter it so christians don't just kill themselves to get there.

p.s. Christianity isn't any worse than other religions, theyre all in the same boat too.




You gave me an idea for a new thread. Thank you.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBasilides
Servent ofWisdom
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5814281 - 07/03/06 02:25 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Still, how do people get anything out of christianity when so little personal worth is used to really delve into their religion?

And don't tell me stuff like: they go to church, they pray, they do fundraisers. Almost every christian I know is one because their family is. Doesn't that seem unfair to anyone?




I'm not really sure what you're referring to. From my experience of places of worship, such as Churches, Hindu Temples, and Mosques, the experience of congregation seems neither pathological or unenjoyed. Many enjoy worship, and many enjoy worship with others.

As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?

Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them :rolleyes:




I was generalizing when I should have been more specific. I was referring to people who are born into a christian family and don't generally get the chance to explore other views and theories.

About people not enjoying worship: it might just be my personal experience, but when I was growing up, all I could hear my friends and other family members talk about on Saturday was, "Man, we have church tommorow...sigh". Perhaps this is just my ignorance, but that is the way I have always seen it.

"As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?"

Because christianity and other world religions have been the sole cause of war, violence, and hatred for who knows how long. That is the reason for this speculation.

"Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them"

So what, just because it's not the 90s doesn't make these points or "rants" any less relevant.




Does war seem Christ-like to you? If you answer "No", then you have just defended Christianity.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSketchyTX05
Beginner to theJourney

Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5815220 - 07/03/06 11:31 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

A lot of people here aren't actually hating on Christianity.

They are hating far more on what many misguided humans have done to it! I'm certainly not here to argue with anyone, but I do feel a great need to share my perspective here. Not because I'm particularly the best person to do it, but I feel like I can agree with a lot of the non-christians here, and agree with the christians.

You guys are all arguing about different things. Non-christians (The ones that are attacking Christianity-Gone-Wrong, and not Christianity) are talking about facts and figures and simply saying the entire mass of these people who claim to be christian aren't really much of a representation. Among other things said.

The Christians are saying that, yes, while this might be true, WE'VE found that most "christians" we run into are not christians at all... but believe that they are because that is what they have told themselves. (And in reply, non-christians say: "prove it.")


Imagine for one moment that Christianity is actually a REAL thing. Just for kicks. God is up there, and man has free will, and Satan can influence man if Man is weak enough to listen. What better way to make people HATE christianity than to influence a mass of weak people to lazy belief where they still continue their pointless material lives, hatefully judging, condemning, being self-righteous, and not in any way actually being spiritual. What better plan could their be for Satan to turn people away?

What I intend to illustrate is this: ALL of our experiences with "Christians" can tell us easily that something is wrong with the religion. Its a lack of spirituality, I believe. Most of these people we run into, who say very heartily that they are Christians, still live here in the world -- which was never part of what Christians were supposed to do. We were never supposed to care about Laguna Beach. We were never supposed to care about getting a Ferrarri. Never. We were supposed to follow the Word of God -- but how many "christians" do it?

They're a RARE breed. Very rare. In fact, I would say the 1-2 in 20 is a good estimate. If not even more rare. And that, dear friends, is scary indeed.

Once more -- I really don't want to get on anyones bad side. I know we all have different opinions here -- and these discussions can get intense because this is a HUGE issue in our minds; from what we understand about OUR world, it just doesn't make sense for someone to believe in something else. But, we're ALL on the path we're on, and that's all there is to it. There isn't any need to get angry (though I see how easy it could be!). Peace should fill this thread. Peace, and maybe some understanding.

Who can argue with this: A new commandment I give to you: Love each other!


That is the christian way.


-Casey


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: SketchyTX05]
    #5815267 - 07/03/06 11:49 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:  Good points.

I have often mentioned that the core beliefs of Christianity (and many other world religions) are excellent guidelines for living.  The trouble is the other "details" that creep in, such as guilt, power tripping and superiority. Though few Christians (IMO) actually practice what they preach, they all claim to be TRUE Christians, and often claim that all others are lost and going to Hell.

Organized religion is a great opportunity for those seeking power over others to influence the masses--and they do.  It is also a way for those who fear taking responsibility for their own lives to abdicate & turn over the power to someone in religious authority.  Yuck.

The practice of any religion is a personal matter, as is the decision not to practice a religion.  When it steps outside the personal realm, and into the realm of power, control, legal enforcement, judgment and oppression of non-believers/sinners, it has ceased to be sacred and become profane.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSketchyTX05
Beginner to theJourney

Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5815341 - 07/03/06 12:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I agree! I've even seen those qualities creep into my life! No one is exempt, but I guess you have to really be on your toes -- not only in organized religion, but, perhaps, especially organized religion.

Yes. I agree.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSyle
Kenai Sigh
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 6,678
Loc: WA
Last seen: 2 months, 12 days
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Basilides]
    #5815797 - 07/03/06 02:25 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Still, how do people get anything out of christianity when so little personal worth is used to really delve into their religion?

And don't tell me stuff like: they go to church, they pray, they do fundraisers. Almost every christian I know is one because their family is. Doesn't that seem unfair to anyone?




I'm not really sure what you're referring to. From my experience of places of worship, such as Churches, Hindu Temples, and Mosques, the experience of congregation seems neither pathological or unenjoyed. Many enjoy worship, and many enjoy worship with others.

As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?

Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them :rolleyes:




I was generalizing when I should have been more specific. I was referring to people who are born into a christian family and don't generally get the chance to explore other views and theories.

About people not enjoying worship: it might just be my personal experience, but when I was growing up, all I could hear my friends and other family members talk about on Saturday was, "Man, we have church tommorow...sigh". Perhaps this is just my ignorance, but that is the way I have always seen it.

"As for "why" people are Christians.. you don't know the inward lives of others, so why speculate? How is it do the activities and beliefs of others somehow penetrate into your world-view comfort zone thus creating an "unfair" situation?"

Because christianity and other world religions have been the sole cause of war, violence, and hatred for who knows how long. That is the reason for this speculation.

"Ranting about Christianity is so 1990's anyways. It seems people are more busy complaining about Christians than actually having negative encounters with them"

So what, just because it's not the 90s doesn't make these points or "rants" any less relevant.




Does war seem Christ-like to you? If you answer "No", then you have just defended Christianity.




You know as well as I do that that is BS. Wars have been fought for centuries in the name of christianity.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Syle]
    #5815849 - 07/03/06 02:39 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, but that would be Christianity in name only.  Anyone who was obeying the commandment "thou shalt not kill" could not participate in a war.  The Bible did not include a disclaimer "unless the other guy really really pissed you off, or had oil you would like to use, or land you would like to build a McDonald's on."  :lol:

The so-called Christians who participated in the Crusades, who shoot doctors who perform abortions, who beat Matthew Shepherd to death for being homosexual, who lynched African-Americans for being "colored," or any other atrocities justified under the blanket of religious righteousness, ARE NOT FOLLOWING CHRIST.

:shrug:  Religion may not be for me, but I cannot deny that the core beliefs of most world religions are sound, and everyone would benefit  if the believers actually put them into action.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,174
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: capliberty]
    #5815857 - 07/03/06 02:43 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

How about you provide some evidence to back up your claim?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSyle
Kenai Sigh
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 6,678
Loc: WA
Last seen: 2 months, 12 days
Re: Christianity = Faith of the Lazy [Re: Veritas]
    #5816083 - 07/03/06 03:48 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, but that would be Christianity in name only.  Anyone who was obeying the commandment "thou shalt not kill" could not participate in a war.  The Bible did not include a disclaimer "unless the other guy really really pissed you off, or had oil you would like to use, or land you would like to build a McDonald's on."  :lol:

The so-called Christians who participated in the Crusades, who shoot doctors who perform abortions, who beat Matthew Shepherd to death for being homosexual, who lynched African-Americans for being "colored," or any other atrocities justified under the blanket of religious righteousness, ARE NOT FOLLOWING CHRIST.

:shrug:  Religion may not be for me, but I cannot deny that the core beliefs of most world religions are sound, and everyone would benefit  if the believers actually put them into action.




Good points.

I definentely agree with that last paragraph.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Faith.
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Phluck 4,371 63 01/03/03 06:42 AM
by Phluck
* Onward Christian Stoner... JhadAgainstReality 4,657 6 09/08/03 02:48 AM
by monoamine
* Half-assed Christians
RandalFlagg
1,175 8 03/24/05 04:32 PM
by Huehuecoyotl
* Post deleted by Anno
( 1 2 3 all )
Anonymous 5,129 45 03/08/04 04:40 PM
by Alan Stone
* How can a Jew still have faith?
( 1 2 all )
exclusive58 3,352 32 12/22/05 09:39 PM
by Droz
* Some Christians and the Atheist
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Swami 13,607 119 07/31/02 09:19 AM
by Sclorch
* From athiest to christian...
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
HidingInPlainSight 8,908 134 01/10/04 06:33 PM
by Frog
* To the Christians; From Enter
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
World Spirit 12,126 157 07/21/03 09:37 PM
by Funguy

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
8,745 topic views. 0 members, 1 guests and 9 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.035 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 17 queries.