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OfflineDeviate
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the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings
    #4450786 - 07/25/05 04:11 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

i can't even count how many different versions of salvation i've heard from christians. usually its something like "All that matters is that you believe Jesus Christ was God's son and died on the cross to erase your sins. Just ask Jesus to forgive you for your sins, and you're saved." i find it amazing that people can think that merely believing a certain statement or being a member of a certain organization guarantees your salvation. these are mere conceptual things. the path to individual christhood has been almost completely removed from christianity. i believe this is why so many "spiritual" people in the west turn to the eastern religions which teach self mastery instead of emphasizing belief in outer doctrines. the same inner path which jesus originally taught. how long to do you think it will be before the world realizes this?


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: Deviate]
    #4451266 - 07/25/05 05:40 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Amen to that! :thumbup:


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Offlinealsey
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: Deviate]
    #4451278 - 07/25/05 05:43 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

jesus didn't teach inner paths, he tought obedience to his god.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: alsey]
    #4451348 - 07/25/05 05:56 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

alsey said:
jesus didn't teach inner paths, he tought obedience to his god.



But god can be found inside and outside. And there is a strong connection between.

"Let all the outside pass over your inner weightstone, and all your inner attitudes over the outer realm of balance, to justify the truth you will receive"
(Shmungo, the Elder)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: alsey]
    #4451449 - 07/25/05 06:13 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

alsey said:
jesus didn't teach inner paths, he tought obedience to his god.




He also said that we are all gods, and that kingdom of heave will not come here or there, and you will not be able to see it, but it will come into hearts of people.

that sounds a lot like inner paths


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineDestruKtiKon
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4451680 - 07/25/05 06:54 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

All religions generally relate back to the same base idea.The key as I see it is take what you need/want and live how you please. I mean, how exciting would the world be if we all believed in the exact same values.
Guy 1: "I believe in this."
Guy 2: "Me too !"
End of conversation for all eternity. Fun Times :smile:.
And when you look at it, technically we are all the son of God, as in we are all made of God, so the story of Jesus is recreated daily, its just a matter of how you wish to interpret these stories.
Try it yourself. Start to proclaim that you are the Son of God and start to preach your individual values to everyone and see how far you get before you get labelled 'crazy'. The test of extreme faith is not easy, nor does it have to adhere to logic.


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Light & Music


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Offlinealsey
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: Deviate]
    #4451882 - 07/25/05 07:31 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

bluecoyote and oldwoodspectre,

how exactly is following an authority an inner path? god being found 'inside' is just playing with words if you ask me, the christian god is a separate entity.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: alsey]
    #4452009 - 07/25/05 08:14 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

the figure of Jesus Christ serves as an example, following him means becoming like him. Why is that not an inner path?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineReborn222
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4454432 - 07/26/05 08:04 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Without the slightest doubt, Jesus taught the inner path. If you look closely, he was very much about leading people to the same experience he was having. "The Kingdom of Heaven is within" is a perfect example of that. He was referring to the very real experience of realising (or remembering) your Oneness with God. To explain it very simply, everything that exists is energy - God, as the Source, would therefore be some form of pure energy that everything comes from. Because you, too, are made of energy, you are a part of God, and are forever One with Him. This is the experience of enlightenment - and sometimes, through a hallucinogen like shrooms or cactus, you can temporarily get a glimpse of this REALITY. (Just have a look at some of the trip reports on this site.) It doesn't last, of course, that would be kind of cheating the process.

Alsey, Jesus would certainly have known of this. Your idea of obedience to God is very old school, coming from the Old Testament - unfortunately many Christians of today have missed the point and hold on to those rules and dogma, which actually keep them imprisoned within these mental constructs.

In the days of the Old Testament, it was a very dark and primitive time. Very very brutal. At that time, the best way for the Divine to influence these young souls was to hand down those commandments, much parents would do to a troublesome child. But this is a reflection of humanity at the time, not God. We needed to be told, "Don't do this", for our own good.

Then humanity evolved over the centuries. We were ready for a new message. So Jesus came along. He rejected the rules and dogma, he was appalled at the animal sacrifices at the temples, he saw the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who were accepted as high spiritual authorities, when he could clearly see that they merely gained those positions by following and manipulating the dogma, and then used those positions to control the masses through fear, with the threat of damnation. Quite simply, following a bunch of rules will not bring you to enlightenment. Because the "Kingdom of Heaven is within", every man and woman has that direct link to the source, and that link is the heart. Enlightenment is indeed a process of going within and reconnecting with your heart. Jesus followed that process himself, and then shared it with all. You don't need rules. You don't need an external church. You don't even need forgiveness. How could you, when God has already forgiven everything, even before you had the thought of it?

This is what he truly taught, above all - the unconditional love and forgiveness of God.

Anyway, I've rambled enough. Thanks for this thread Deviate. I completely agree with what you said... and to answer your question:

It will happen in our lifetime!


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: alsey]
    #4454833 - 07/26/05 11:15 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

alsey said:
bluecoyote and oldwoodspectre,

how exactly is following an authority an inner path? god being found 'inside' is just playing with words if you ask me, the christian god is a separate entity.



The best example is buddha. He wanted to lead everyone on an inner path to recognize the roots of suffering which fog everyones spirit and mind. He is like a sign, which points to a way. The way itself must be walked by yourself.
Same with Jesus, but as one of his hands points to the inside, the other points to the outside.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4454920 - 07/26/05 11:46 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Jesus and his parables are like food for the mind and the spirit. Understanding their real meaning is an enlightening exercise, thoughtful and rewarding on any ones inner path.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Offlinealsey
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4454960 - 07/26/05 12:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
the figure of Jesus Christ serves as an example, following him means becoming like him. Why is that not an inner path?




because your following someone else. something external.

i guess if you reach the same conclusions as jesus through your own reasoning, and then become like him, that is indeed an inner path. perhaps my mind has been closed by seeing too many christians doing what they do because god/bible said so.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: alsey]
    #4455701 - 07/26/05 03:24 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

alsey said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
the figure of Jesus Christ serves as an example, following him means becoming like him. Why is that not an inner path?




because your following someone else. something external.

i guess if you reach the same conclusions as jesus through your own reasoning, and then become like him, that is indeed an inner path. perhaps my mind has been closed by seeing too many christians doing what they do because god/bible said so.




Through reasoning? reasoning mostly will get you to a position like Napoleon or Hitler.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinealsey
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4455994 - 07/26/05 04:44 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

if not reasoning then what? blind faith? there are many people in the world who use their reasoning, and few of them are like napoleon or hitler. those who end up like hitler are the ones who use reasoning only for their own gain.

if you do not work things out for yourself, then you are merely doing what someone tells you to do, and that is why i think christianity or any other supreme deity based religion to be external.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: alsey]
    #4456022 - 07/26/05 04:50 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I belive that both Hitler and Napoleon, believed that what they were doing was Ulitmatly for the benefit of humanity, and not very for there own selfish personal gain. This clearly shows that some forms of reasoning can be highly deluded.


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Offlinealsey
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: Sinbad]
    #4456050 - 07/26/05 04:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
I belive that both Hitler and Napoleon, believed that what they were doing was Ulitmatly for the benefit of humanity, and not very for there own selfish personal gain. This clearly shows that some forms of reasoning can be highly deluded.




there's a difference between a belief and a logical conclusion. reasoning leads to the latter, but not the former.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: alsey]
    #4456307 - 07/26/05 06:06 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Hitler's logical reasoning, was that if he wiped out all of the races he didn't like, he'd be left with the ones that he in-visioned as being pure. It sounds like his reasoning would have led to pretty logical conclusion as far as i can see.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: Sinbad]
    #4456393 - 07/26/05 06:22 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

If someone really wants to read Jesus' words they should read the Apocryphia. Therein Jesus discusses Sophia, the Divine Savioresse, the body as the temple, the nature of ignorance, the nature of enlightenment. Etc... www.gnosis.org

It's time Jesus was put back into the Bible. Of course Jesus taught in terms of the dualism of the times, in tones set by Mani and other dvaitists. However, it's sure that he had advaita teachings.

My opinion, it doesn't matter if he was the first begotten son of god or whatever he still had to learn the language of the times, the language which was common for the common people and the language which was uncommon for the uncommon people, or he never would have connected to anyone.

So for that reason alone he will have given many teachings, some for the esoteric and intelligent and wise, and some for the poor, unschooled and unruly. The saddest part is that only the latter teachings were deemed fit by Constantine to be part of the religion of the Holy Roman Empire.


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...or something







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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings [Re: alsey]
    #4456587 - 07/26/05 07:09 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

alsey said:
if not reasoning then what? blind faith? there are many people in the world who use their reasoning, and few of them are like napoleon or hitler. those who end up like hitler are the ones who use reasoning only for their own gain.

if you do not work things out for yourself, then you are merely doing what someone tells you to do, and that is why i think christianity or any other supreme deity based religion to be external.




well, supose you create this AI machine, and give it an "urge" to survive and gather resources (that is what all life on earth does), in time, the logic would imply that he kill of humans, because they restrain him and take a lot of resources, and take everything that humans had for himself. That is logic.

The only thing you can prevent that is by installing a code that says: do not harm human beings..

And how is that different from a god telling people what not to do?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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