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 gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
 
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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 Re: Reincarnation and Christianity  [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3437483 - 12/02/04 12:58 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thats based on the assumption that no other conscious life exists else where able to choose to incarnate on earth as human. if your assumption is wrong, your argument goes *poof*. if you are correcto, then I guess its fair some are born rich and some poor, some live full long healthy happy lives and some suffer and die within mintues hours, weeks or months. It's totally rightious that some are born without legs, diseased, and retarded etc.
I suppose this has to do with the sins of their fathers and they are being rightiously punished for them in accoradance with the law of God?
Souls from all over the cosmos and here are lined up and waiting for bodies and always have been. Especially NOW. Planet earth is THE place to be.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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FreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada 
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 Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: CherryBom]
#3437498 - 12/02/04 01:00 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Bom let me assure you: Heavenly bliss is anything but eternal boredom. The keenest sensual pleasure available on this level is relative pain in comparison, just reporting 
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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"
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CherryBom
Yoga Gypsy
Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Ontario
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It's soul party central. We all want to find our soulmate and fly through the stars together, teaching ourselves, educating each other and becoming more and more evolved beings.
Beings of light, even. Godlike. It takes many, many lifetimes of challenge and lesson and we set ourselves up for it every time we come back, because who knows what we need to work on the most....? Our very spirits. Our souls.
My soul would get bored pretty damn quick up there. It's got much work to do!
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Fucknuckle
Dog Lover
Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: CherryBom]
#3437547 - 12/02/04 01:08 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
CherryBomb said:
So then if we are only to be here once before we chill out for eternity in blissful bordom with nothing to do but bliss all day long, why do we come here ONCE?
What is the purpose of this one time?
Well first off all your opnion of the after life according to the Bible is wrong. Heaven will not be a boreing place. LOL
We are hear one time to have the chance to learn to Love, to be as close to God as possible. To live in forgiveness of one another. To chose right over wrong. to give our life to the Love of God.
I know exactly what you might say. " How are we suppose to learn all that in one life?"
Many people do.
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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.
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CherryBom
Yoga Gypsy
Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Ontario
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3437598 - 12/02/04 01:17 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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So then, in theory... we come here once for 80 or so years, learn how to love and find God and then spend the rest of our spirtual life living happily in this heaven?
What if we don't find that? What if we fall in love all over the place? What if we get divorced? What if we spend our lives being spiteful and greedy and lonely? What if we never experience these feelings of love and comfort? Then what? Have we failed? Was is 'gods' intention for that individual to fail?
I've met some pretty unpleasant people in my travels. I know I've come across lost souls and the like. What if we fail this one chance we've got to pull our shit together?
You say many people find what they are looking for, but what about the ones who don't? Are they undeserving of this eternal bliss you speak of?
Do you think that maybe...just maybe this forgiving 'god' of yours might give them another chance? Try it again? Maybe it could be possible??
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Fucknuckle
Dog Lover
Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: CherryBom]
#3437659 - 12/02/04 01:29 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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No every man as he or she grows know what right from wrong is. The become aware that there is good and evil. They at some point know that there is a God. Even in the choice of not believing there is a God. They have made a choice to reject him.
The fact that there are Good things and Bad can not be argued by anyone.
To live is to make choices and once you make the choice to reject God. You live with your choices.
The whole point of Man living is to make to the choice to Love God. God can not make man perfect. There would be no Love without choice.
To Love is to make a choice
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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.
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CherryBom
Yoga Gypsy
Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Ontario
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3437732 - 12/02/04 01:45 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ok, fair enough...but you're kind of dancing around my question.
What if we fail this one chance we've got to pull our shit together?
You say many people find what they are looking for, but what about the ones who don't? Are they undeserving of this eternal bliss you speak of?
Do you think that maybe...just maybe this forgiving 'god' of yours might give them another chance? Try it again? Maybe it could be possible??
Quote:
Fucknuckle said:
To live is to make choices and once you make the choice to reject God. You live with your choices.
As per your unique perception, what are the consequences of free will? Eternal damnation? Do you beleive in hell as well as heaven? Can one really exist without the other?
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Fucknuckle
Dog Lover
Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: CherryBom]
#3437754 - 12/02/04 01:49 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I can only say that we have a choice to Love or not to Love.
What is the rewards of not Loving ? Hate, death, pain, greed etc...
What are the rewards of Love ? Peace, Joy, All need meet etc....
I think you trying to get me to say people go to hell and people go to heaven.
That I will not do because I can not see into anyone's closet. Only God can do that
As far as God has told me, we have but one life to get it right
As easly as I can see that a car battery has a negitive and a posistive.
Love and not to love is the same as a battery.
Yes there is a place of Love and a place of No love
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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.
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 Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
#3439629 - 12/02/04 07:55 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Found this on a website:
Does the Bible and Science Support Reincarnation
Introduction
My primary impetus in doing this page was from a conversation I had with my Orthodox Jewish supervisor. We have had many discussions about theology and other subjects that are "taboo" in the workplace.
In these discussions, I have found that Christianity and Orthodox Judaism teach similar concepts regarding morality and even theology (with obvious differences about who the Messiah is).
In one conversation, I was very surprised to learn that reincarnation is a doctrine accepted by Orthodox Jews. In fact, a statement by Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the leader of the largest ultra-Orthodox Israeli political party, recently caused considerable stir throughout the world. According to the Rabbi, all of the six million Jews killed in the Nazi Holocaust were sinners who were reincarnated, at least in part, to atone for their sins from a past life.1
In trying to defend the Christian doctrine opposing reincarnation, I found that I was unable to think of even one Old Testament verse that disputed reincarnation. However, I assumed that some verses must exist, since I have found that virtually all Christian doctrines can be found in the Old Testament.
A scientific rebuttal to reincarnation
The concept of reincarnation is widely accepted among non-Christians, probably because it appeals to many who would like to believe that they would be given a second chance in case they failed to make the grade in this life.
Christianity disputes reincarnation because it is unnecessary, since anybody can "make the grade" simply through an act of their own will through faith in Jesus Christ.
The scientific rebuttal to reincarnation is quite simple. Because of the population explosion, more people are currently living on the earth than have ever lived on the earth for the entire history of humankind. In other words, over half of the people who have ever lived on earth have never died even once!
There simply are not enough dead souls to go around for a second time. This does not absolutely eliminate reincarnation, but it does severely restrict its extent, especially for those who have claimed to have lived several times before.
What the New Testament says
Let's look at what the New Testament says first. The most quoted verse disputing reincarnation is from the book of Hebrews:
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)
Obviously, if a person dies only once, then he can't be reincarnated. Other refutations of reincarnation came from Jesus. In His description of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man, Jesus indicated that the rich man was unable to do anything about his fate (eternal torment in Hell).2 Reincarnation is supposed to allow a person a second chance at heaven. Jesus, in His teachings, indicated that people would have only one chance to obtain eternal life, otherwise suffer eternal punishment:
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. (Matthew 18:8)
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:46)
"Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation." (Matthew 12:45)
" Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first." (Luke 11:26)
The New Testament letters also indicate that unrepentant people would suffer a final, unpleasant fate.3 Therefore, it is widely accepted by Christians that the New Testament declares reincarnation to be false.
What the Old Testament says
Is the Old Testament really so unclear about the fate of the dead that reincarnation is a possibility? Contrary to what I had originally thought, the Old Testament is not silent on the issue, but provides a clear stance on the subject.
Many Old Testament verses affirm that the dead do not return to the land of the living.4 The Old Testament also affirms that people will enter into an eternal destiny after death.5
The strongest argument against reincarnation comes from the book of Job, which declares several times that the dead do not return to the land of the living:
"When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up. "He will not return again to his house, Nor will his place know him anymore. (Job 7:9-10)
While still growing and uncut, they wither more quickly than grass. Such is the destiny of all who forget God; so perishes the hope of the godless. (Job 8:12-13)
Before I go-- and I shall not return-- To the land of darkness and deep shadow; (Job 10:21)
But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep. (Job 14:10-12)
"For when a few years are past, I shall go the way of no return. (Job 16:22)
I have heard that certain rabbis interpret the verses from Job as denying resurrection rather than reincarnation. However, Job could not be referring to resurrection, since he specifically refers to returning to his house or his place. In addition, at one point, Job affirms resurrection, since his skin will be destroyed yet he will see God in his flesh.
I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end He will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; (Job 19:26)
Conclusions
Reincarnation is a popular belief among many "spiritual" people, and is commonly held in most major religions. It has such popularity because people would like to believe that they will be given a second chance if they "blow it" in their first life.
In Judaism, where salvation is based upon "being good," one could be condemned quite easily by making some major mistakes in his life. The "hope" of reincarnation provides an escape from a God who demands righteousness.
However, both the Old and New Testaments do not leave reincarnation as an option that God chose to use. Why would God not allow a second chance for those who made mistakes on their first attempt? The answer is quite simple.
Salvation is a free gift for all who want it. It requires only repentance from your former life (admitting you were wrong and wish to change) and belief in the completed work of Jesus Christ on the cross to atone for your sins. Anyone can be saved through the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ. Don't expect a second chance to go to heaven. Today is the day of salvation!
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
#3439677 - 12/02/04 08:02 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hmmm. I am only finding websites that don't believe that the bible supports reincarnation
http://www.gotquestions.org/reincarnation.html
Question: "What does the Bible say about reincarnation?"
Answer: The Bible does not even mention the concept of reincarnation. The Bible tells us that we die once and then face judgment (Heb 9:27). The Bible never mentions people having a second chance at life, or coming back as different people or animals. Jesus told the criminal on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise!" (Luke 23:43), not "You will have another chance to live a life on this earth." Matthew 25:46 specifically tells us that believers go on to eternal life while unbelievers go onto eternal punishment. Reincarnation has been a popular belief for thousands of years, but it has never been accepted by Christians or followers of Judaism.
The one passage that some point to as evidence for reincarnation is Matthew 17:10-12 which links John the Baptist with Elijah. However, the passage does not say that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated, but rather that he would have fulfilled the prophesy of Elijah coming if the people had believed his words and thereby believed in Jesus as the Messiah (Matthew 17:12). The people specifically asked John the Baptist if he was Elijah, and he said "No, I am not" (John 1:21).
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
#3442305 - 12/03/04 01:19 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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It has such popularity because people would like to believe that they will be given a second chance if they "blow it" in their first life.
Actually, I think it's safe to say that most people would view one-shot-and-done as being infinitely preferable to having to return to Earth over and over leading difficult lives! I know I would.
In Judaism, where salvation is based upon "being good," one could be condemned quite easily by making some major mistakes in his life. The "hope" of reincarnation provides an escape from a God who demands righteousness.
My belief in reincarnation is not based upon my "hope" that it is true, but my observations of the cyclic nature of life and the many differences in people that it accounts for. I can think of several different scenarios that are far preferable to a belief in reincarnation! When I finally settled on reincarnation I did so very reluctantly.
As for the idea that reincarnation "provides an escape from a God who demands righteousness". Baloney. Even the most casual student of reincarnation knows that karma is extremely exacting and fair in its justice. Returning to life repeatedly to burn off karma is not my idea of an "escape". Far from it.
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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Jellric]
#3442396 - 12/03/04 01:47 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I adopted a beleif in it in my teens when I started researching the concept after becoming aware of it by studying Budhism and Hinduism.
I came across hundreds of doccumented cases of CHILDREN recalling past life memories and details that through research were varified to be as the children said they would be. The children had no way of knowing the things they did otherwise.
That on top of reincarnation making sense as an explanation for what is otherwise inexplicable.
As a kid being raised Catholic, I had what frog posted shoved down my throat. I would think things like, so babies who die before they are baptised go to pergatory because they are not cleansed from original sin? Then I would think, "How does a God who loves without condition, have conditions for who it accepts into its home? God would not accept a new born babe? What a creep!
I was thinking, how does a god who is deemed to be just and fair, give some life full of health, love , family and support, and some poverty, abandonment, and disease?
I would then think, "thats not fair or just and whoever this god is, he needs a psychiatrist. Reincarnation explains how it can be made fair and just and balanced over the course of many physical life times.
Why do people confuse the biblical expression of ONE life with one physical incarnation type of life? Who ever said one life didn't mean the whole life of the eternal soul?
Who interpreted ONE death to mean one physical death? It can be just as easily interpreted to mean ONE death of the souls "ego" false sense of self, "idea that it is separate from source".
So after finding through my own discerning heart, catholisms interpretations to be whacked, I looked to the eastern religions, and then to real life case studies and then, started having my own experiences of past life and future life memory when I blew my scope out into the cosmic realms.
It's also baloney that people who claim to remember past lifes are all cleopatra.
Most of mine, I was poor, abused, and died young. From all the human incarnations I have uncovered so far, I came across nothing glamorous. The celestial lives are more interesting, still not glamorous. I've been in subserviant positions in all of them actually.
Maybe when my soul matures more, I won't see the subserviance as being a lowley thing. Maybe that is one of the reasons why I keep coming back here to figure that out and overcome it once and for all.
At least I'm aware of something I am working on in this life that I intened to. Maybe I will wrap it up this time. I would still want to come back though in the future. I think the future of this planet is going to rock hard, that the best is yet to come and we havn't seen anything yet!
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Jellric]
#3442766 - 12/03/04 03:28 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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The early Christian church accepted the doctrine of reincarnation from non-Jewish sources. Numerous Gnostics as well as church Fathers Clement of Alexandria (who wrote against the Gnostics, but not against reincarnation), Origen (both 3rd century), and by St. Jerome (5th century). The doctrine was FIRST declared a heresy in 553 A.D. by the Second Council of Constantinople. At that time, many Christians thought the doctrine of reincarnation afforded man too much time and space to strive for salvation - it had to be accomplished in one lifetime.
There is little to support the doctrine of transmigration from the words attributed to Jesus found in the canonical Bible. However, those four Gospels were selected by the so-called church Fathers who had agendas of there own, and there were, and are (since the Nag Hammadi discovery) many Gospels that were rejected. John's Gospel, the most theologically radical Gospel, was almost rejected from the canon because it was thought to be 'too Gnostic.' The whole John 3:1-15 sequence regarding Nicodemus coming to Jesus at night (implying secrecy and initiation) being told that a man must be "born again," suggests a ritual (Baptism) where death and rebirth are the theme. The natural cyclic process WAS acknowledged, and Baptism into Christ [the living Christ Consciousness] afforded liberation, salvation from the cycle of birth and death. This is no different than far-East teachings.
Judaeo-Christian cosmology differed from pagan cosmologies in that it established a linearity if time rather than the pagan world's cyclic 'myth of the eternal return.' History had a definate beginning, and an apocalyptic end. If one wasn't "born again" or "born from above," which is to say, if one didn't identify with one's spiritual self, one's transcendental nature, then one perished as does all of nature. The Hell-fire-and-brimstone tradition derives mainly from Matthew's Gospel, which derives from Mark's Gospel WITH the agenda of the author known as Matthew. Mark comes from the 'Q' Source, and Q may have been closer to the Gospel of Thomas before Matthew got a hold of it. So we've got fundamentalist, tent-revivalist, evangelical scare-the-hell-into-them traditions hailing from Matthew-based material, as well as mystical, other-worldly Eastern Orthodox traditions (Greek, Russian, Rumanian) coming from John's pseudo-Gnostic material, not to mention Egyptian Coptic Christians who draw on excluded Pseudepigraphal Old Testament writings, some of whom still entertain transmigration/metempsychosis as metaphysically True.
Bottom line: Christians of different traditions are gonna believe different things - it's everyone's prerogative. The BIG LIE of establishment churches is that salvation depends on right doctrine (orthodoxy) and anything that deviates is wrong view (heresy) and the result damnation. Early Christianity, TRUE Christianity I would add, admitted of many different doctrines. A singular doctrine preserved the religion in the face of competing religions, but it soon became the monsterous Church of Rome which was responsible for more attrocities against humanity than any other single organization. I suggest reading Ehrman's Lost Christianities if anyone is interested.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Anonymous
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Awesome Markos. You never fail to inform. Looks like I was wrong. 
Question for Christians here: do YOU believe in reincarnation and why or why not?
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FreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
#3442919 - 12/03/04 03:58 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Excusez moi Frog but didn't you once say in a post that you believed in reincarnation?
If I am not wrong in my recollections, has this information you just posted affected your stance at all and made you change your position? Just curious 
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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3443030 - 12/03/04 04:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I worked for years with a huge guy who I swear reminded me of a bull - at least a cartoon version of a bull. He also 'mounted' every big chick ['heffer']who 'presented' for him. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm looking for phenomenological parallels to those pictures in my old Bhagavad Gita who show fat gluttons with pigs, horney ['horn dog'] men with dogs that hump anything, a murderer with an animal being slaughtered. Maybe a lot of people ARE 1st generation humans!
Also, Buddhist rebirth is markedly different from Hindu reincarnation. Only the latter suggests a discrete 'entity' that 'reappears' in the guize of different human beings. The anatta or anatman doctrine in Buddhism posits dispersed 'tendencies' or samskaras which are metaphysically 're-cycled' into new sentient beings. When enough samskaras are clustered in the same being, a memory trace of past lives is possible, as when little kids in Tibet are named 'Tulkus' - reborn Lamas because they claim to be some old man or woman and can select the correct items once belonging to the Lama from a large collection of items. Westerners uncritically lump these doctrines together. Moreover, there are other versions like 'gilgul' in Kabbalism, in which transmigration of the soul occurs because one has not produced any children (which means I have to return). And why is it that Tulkus are found in one tiny section of the planet except for the rare 'Bridey Murphy' story?
Ultimately, from India and Tibet, transmigration is another level of illusion because who we are Ultimately is co-extensive with the Absolute, not momentary lifetimes that arise and fall like little waves on the Ocean of Existence.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
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Good stuff, Markos.
I've always thought a good example of a first timer soul is Mike Tyson. He's undeveloped in the mind and his actions are not far from that of an animal. He has no control over his appetites, works in a very animalistic sport, scratches, bites and claws opponents. And yet he's a multi millionaire. 
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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.
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dorkus
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity *DELETED* [Re: Jellric]
#3443092 - 12/03/04 04:57 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by dorkus
Reason for deletion: .
Edited by dr_mandelbrot (12/03/04 05:00 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 43,051
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: dorkus]
#3443104 - 12/03/04 05:02 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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no idea
all pretty equal in this soup
and none equal at all.
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