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TODAY
Battletoad


Registered: 09/25/03
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Jesus' teachings
#5593471 - 05/05/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is there an undiluted account of Jesus' teachings? That is, an account of his teachings that hasn't been warped by others.
I'd like to know what the real Jesus' ideaologies were. I heard he never said anything about an afterlife and that was an invention of people after him warping his message. I mean, did he think he was the son of God or is that an invention of somebody else too?
It may be fruitful to ask because I'm sure most of the accounts of Jesus' life and teachings have been destroyed if they didn't conform to the church's decided acount of his message.
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ca'rouse (k-rouz) intr.v. To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.
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RedNucleus
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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: TODAY]
#5593489 - 05/05/06 10:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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It doesn't get any better than the gospels I think. I don't trust the gospels. Catholics believe the holy spirit inspired the authors of the truth, since none of them actually knew Jesus personally. Far fetched.
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Namaste
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Silversoul
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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: TODAY]
#5593583 - 05/05/06 10:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Like RedNucleus said, none of the gospel writers knew Jesus personally. However, you can get a general picture of what he was like by reading as many of these accounts as possible. I personally recommend reading some of the apocryphal gospels(ones that were left out of the Bible) as well. I especially recommend the Gospel of Thomas, as it is one of the earliest gospels written, and is composed entirely of the sayings of Jesus(no narrative or miracles in it).
Basically, the earliest gospels written seem to be the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mark, and the theoretical "Q source," which Matthew and Luke both seem to have used as a reference.
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RedNucleus
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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: Silversoul]
#5593629 - 05/05/06 11:01 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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thanks for recommending
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Namaste
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downforpot
Stranger

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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: RedNucleus]
#5593650 - 05/05/06 11:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Most so called Christians don't follow Jesus' teachings, they still stick to the Old Testament.
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
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RedNucleus
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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: downforpot]
#5593664 - 05/05/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What sects do this? Christ isn't in the old testament so I have a hard time believing that anyone could worship Christ without any sort of religious doctrine on him. Certainly not most, as you say. If it were most, then the bible would be a less popular book than the book you suggest, which contains only the old testament.
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Namaste
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Deviate
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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: RedNucleus]
#5594132 - 05/05/06 01:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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there is no pure account of his teachings.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: TODAY]
#5595232 - 05/05/06 06:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I recommend two books that will clarify the complex answer to your question. Yes, it requires at least two books to supply a sufficient answer.
The first book is Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes by Re. John Shelby Spong. The second book is The Jesus Mysteries by Gandy and Freke.
Spong will show you how, when, where and why the books that ended up in the canonical Bible did so, and Gandy and Freke will show you how the "Literalist" interpretation of the scriptures was arranged and pushed by Emperor Constantine instead of the competing Gnostic interpretation, which has much in common with most of the other world religions. The Literalist interpretation is contradictory and absurd (which is why Tertullian said "I believe because it is absurd"), and is why Literalist Christianity is so frequently rejected by those who have had mystical entheogenic experiences and have, like Neo in 'The Matrix,' begun to awaken from the illusions, delusions and falsehoods that have passed for Christianity for so long. It is not that the myths are wrong, it is that the myths are treated as though they are historical events. This is why I chose Christianity over other faiths, and as it turns out, it is the Big Lie that organized Christianity has used as their claim for uniqueness and religious imperialism.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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fivepointer
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Is there an undiluted account of Jesus' teachings?
Yes, it is called the Bible.
PS Gnosticism is the big lie. It is calling all those that testified that Jesus actually existed LIARS. This teaching comes from the bowels of hell.
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Icelander
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bowels of hell.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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kotik
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Quote:
Quote:
Is there an undiluted account of Jesus' teachings?
Yes, it is called the Bible.
amazing how that works, huh?
Quote:
PS Gnosticism is the big lie. It is calling all those that testified that Jesus actually existed LIARS. This teaching comes from the bowels of hell.
with an argument like that, you make it hard to refute.. but I will mention that none of the accepted gospels were actually from the same time as Jesus, and were in fact all much after him. So in that sense, yes anyone who testified Jesus actually lived, without knowing this as a fact themselves, are liars, for lack of a better word (and since you used it first ;p )
mark, thanks for the suggestions, they are in queue on amazon
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
Edited by kotik (05/05/06 07:04 PM)
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: kotik]
#5595346 - 05/05/06 07:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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also.. mark:
wondering if you've come across The Laughing Jesus : Religious Lies and Gnostic Wisdom by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy
or if you may be able to offer some good intro material
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Fucknuckle
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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: TODAY]
#5595486 - 05/05/06 07:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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With prayer and the gospels you will find your answers. The spirit of Jesus can only be found in prayer. A friendship begins and ends with communication.............prayer. A true friend will share the truth in the word. The wisdom of Christ can only be found through prayer and the word. The mind of Christ is right there waiting for you.
Go ahead everybody tear that apart I know you will........
-------------------- What it is, is what it is my Brother. It is as it is, so suffer thru it.
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kotik
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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: Fucknuckle]
#5595637 - 05/05/06 08:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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lets just say im not interested right now at knowing the spirit of jesus, but very interested in his teachings, and the teachings of many others.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Basilides
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Quote:
fivepointer said: Is there an undiluted account of Jesus' teachings?
Yes, it is called the Bible.
PS Gnosticism is the big lie. It is calling all those that testified that Jesus actually existed LIARS. This teaching comes from the bowels of hell.
I don't know why you're so uppity about Gnosticism. Gnosticism is merely the 'science' behind the Myth. Through the Myth we come to fathom the nature of Spirit (faith). Through gnosis we came to know the metaphysical structure and reality of Spirit. Myth establishes the Pure Idea, the Reality of Spirit. Gnosticism again merely investigates the Myth.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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MarkostheGnostic
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YOU seem to come from the bowels. You're full of s**t, plain and simple, with emphasis on simple.
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DoctorJ


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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: TODAY]
#5596025 - 05/05/06 10:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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the tao teh ching
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DoctorJ


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Quote:
fivepointer said:
PS Gnosticism is the big lie. It is calling all those that testified that Jesus actually existed LIARS. This teaching comes from the bowels of hell.
you sir, are wrong
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: kotik]
#5597013 - 05/06/06 06:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, I read The Laughing Jesus as well as Jesus and the Lost Goddess. I have not swallowed all of it hook-line-and-sinker, but their books supply a current day approach to the Gnostic interpretation and use of scriptures which can actually aid a fellow human being in one's personal transcendence and transformation into Christ. This is over and against the uselessness of traditional 'Christian' doctrine which yields little more than childish, superstitious, brainwashed bigots who believe that only THEIR myths are salvific. Forget antisemitism for a nanosecond - the so-called 'Christians' spend their lives in the illegitimate mode of condemning all humans to Hell - AS IF they are in a position to make such a Judgement - including others who call themselves Christians.
I leave all the well-intentioned folk to their own degree and capacity for understanding the myths. I would not speak down to a mentally handicapped person either, bless their hearts. It is, after all, about Heart, not Head, Compassion, not intellect. But a fundamentalist who attacks me with their old Constantine-spawned, Church Father distorted excuse for a useful theology is barking up the wrong tree. From the Inquisitioner to the Klansman, these ass****s are anything but Compassionate and have nothing of the nature of Christ about them. They are so fearful of the possibility that they might be wrong, that they HATE anyone who causes them to question their own assumptions they they call 'faith.' Such 'faith' in lies should be consigned to the graves of historical error.
Christ is in the Taoist upon whose shoulder the wild birds land in fearlessness. Christ is in the Yogi whose heel a cobra does not strike because their is no enmity in that being to cause fear in the reptile. Christ is in the Jewish rabbi who teaches the same things that young Y'shua learned from other rabbis two millennia ago, and Christ is in us to the extent that we act Compassionately, that we heal, not hurt others, and that we teach others to do likewise because we are all under Almighty GOD who beats the drum of our hearts, enlivening each one of us moment-to-moment.
And to YOU bigots and haters, one and all - wolves in sheep's clothing - pontificating like wind-up dolls on scriptures that you have little to no comprehension of: A curse upon your hate and upon your kind. Stay thou away from these young seekers after Truth who must negotiate the icebergs of ancient frozen LIES in this Ocean of Existence - LIES from HATERS who claim a holiness that they in no wise embody. What little YOU have will be taken from you in the end. Better a millstone be hung around YOUR necks, and YOU tossed into the sea than to 'assume' the Godly role of the condemnation and judgement of young seekers. Get thee behind me Satan! +++Amen+++
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Roker
Stranger



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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: TODAY]
#5597037 - 05/06/06 06:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Jesus was a orthodox hebrew it says (some where in the back) "I have not come to change one word of the law" so this makes hime orthodox, he did not claim to be god, which would make him a heretic, but he was a zelot which made him in the eyes of the romans a revolutionary and a terrorist. To cut a long story short. The romans couldn't suppress the cult although they tried for a couple of hundred years, so they co-opted it and as was the roman habit they made him a god - read up on the council of Nicea for a rundown on this. there followed several centuries of book burning and cult suppresion (this resulted in the dark ages when much of the worlds accumulated knowledge was lost - thanks to the early church). There are some traces of the gnostic teachings of Jesus remaining in the new testament but you have to dig deeply to find them. One of the many theories is that it was a drug cult who's aim was to re-establish the ancient kingdom of Israel by any means. This dream was ultimately crushed at Masada. there has been some very interesting work done on the bible by philologists, most notably John M Allegro, an australian scholar who worked on the dead sea scrolls. Just remember, as it says in the good book, seek and you shall find.
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TheGus
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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: Roker]
#5597044 - 05/06/06 06:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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ask god, in all honesty the teachings of jesus were simple, you know all the hippie stuff, love your fellow man, that sort of thing
as for the stories he told these guys have alot of good references already plus i dont really know any more
i will point out that prayer is a good precursor to telepathy, its being able to interpret pure thought (higher power, ie. god) into a language comprehendible by us simple mortals, this helps you become more sensetive to this sort of thing for when you are around other people
i can very often read people's thoughts... which is weird to say the least, like i can answer their question before they ask it, or say the same thing they are saying
anyway
peace
-------------------- "It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car. -mo0nlite_sonata Psythos
Edited by TheGus (05/06/06 06:50 AM)
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: TheGus]
#5597080 - 05/06/06 07:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
i can very often read people's thoughts...
not even remotely interested. amazing how this thread turned from jesus to you.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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fivepointer
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1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
fivepointer said: 1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
The letters of John are later pieces of writing (John's Gospel now being thought to have been penned about 90 years C.E.), and the particular passages that you quoted are insertions that were made specifically to combat the main competition for doctrinal dominance - namely, Gnosticism. All Gnostic schools were not Docetic and even today, most Literalists do not understand that the 'apparent' body of Jesus is a metaphor for ALL of our situations. That is, all of our bodies are ephemeral (they arise from two cells, develop, peak, age, decline, die, decay and disappear). Taken in a 'time-lapse' photography, if that were possible over a human lifespan, one could more clearly see that. The [Christ] Consciousness that characterizes the human 'BEING' is that which is eternal. If eternal, it is co-extensive with the nature of GOD (it being absurd to say that a temporal being can be made to be eternal. Eternal means uncreated).
The Qur'an apparently views Jesus as either having had a 'phantom' form, or that someone replaced Him on the cross (because supposedly a 'cursed' death would not occur to a 'prophet' of GOD). In the Islamic writing, one can take it (like the Bible) either literally, or metaphorically, which would be the Gnostic method. There, the idea is that while a man's body can certainly be killed, the essential nature is uncreated. Of course, here, as in Christian gnosis, this means that Jesus the Christ is (historically real or not) The Archetype, Holy Paradigm, Cosmic Man, or whatever one wishes to refer to that Reality which is True for every human being. The mythic, midrashic, metaphysical statements therefore about 'the Logos incarnate,' in this method of interpretation applies equally to every one of us - yet most individuals do not REALIZE (make Real) this Truth in their lives. This then is the Gnostic position - not to place Jesus upon a pedestal to be worshiped like a pagan god, but to Realize that 'ye are gods' yourselves, made 'in the image and likeness' of GOD, to be Realized through our individual lives.
It can serve no practical purpose to place Jesus on a pedestal (so-to-speak). One must incorporate Christ so that one is transformed along the lines of Paul's "I live, yet not I; Christ liveth in me." Our personal ego is dethroned as the perishable embodied self, and the Eternal Being is recognized as being the Ultimately True animating force in our being. The paradox: 'I live, yet not I,' affirmation and negation of personal selfhood resulting in a nullification of our personal egos. We are thus 'crucified' and die (as ego), while Christ replaces the Center of our psychospiritual inner lives. Resurrection, Gnostic style.
Take it or leave it, but for gnostic Christians, this process (also grounded in Pauline words) has real transforming and experiential value, whereas the tomb narratives simply serve to describe the outer form of the myth. The True Resurrection is as I have interpreted here. The description of the Resurrection, of course, is THE Sacred Mystery which 'no eye has seen nor heart conceived.' Certainly, a resusitation of a corpse is not a description of a Holy Mystery, but the mythic symbol which points to the utterly mysterious and transcendental.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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and what gospel is that part in?
... jk
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: kotik]
#5600457 - 05/07/06 09:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Which part? Gnostic Resurrection is about Realization of our deepest identity with GOD. Not the anthropomorphic 'Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky' YHWH/Jehovah, but the Fulness [Pleroma] of the Godhead. It is not about form. The Resurrection 'body' does not mean a human-shaped ghostly form of the physical that is going to walk about on a transfigured Earth. The 'body' is the 'Mystical Body' of Christ - the Pleroma itself. I'm sorry if ecstasis in Undifferentiated Unity makes no sense to readers or is frightening or unwanted; or if people look forward to the heaven depicted in the Robin Williams film 'What Dreams May Come.'
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: kotik]
#5600544 - 05/07/06 09:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
... jk
my attempt at sarcasm, just throwing out a typical literalist comment.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus' teachings [Re: kotik]
#5600722 - 05/07/06 11:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I know. Regardless. You were motivated respond. Sarcasm is just some stuff that you jam yourself with. The important aspect of you saw my post. I needn't stop at sarcasm when I can address That which is beneath it.
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