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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Reincarnation and Christianity
    #3435777 - 12/02/04 12:33 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

This discussion started in a thread of Swami's so I have opened up this topic as a thread of its own:

In another thread Fucknuckle stated that he believes reincarnation goes against everything Jesus said. Personally, I find parts of the Bible, if not explicitly supportive of reincarnation, certainly not opposed to it.

Am I alone in seeing allusions to reincarnation in the Bible?


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Jellric]
    #3435786 - 12/02/04 12:35 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Let the games begin.

:grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3435794 - 12/02/04 12:37 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Tommorow............Goodnight


Hey did I not say that already?????????????


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3435828 - 12/02/04 12:46 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Yes.  :grin:

Me, too.  Bed.  Sleep.  I feel a war coming on.  :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,177
Loc: Ontario
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3436381 - 12/02/04 08:03 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Good morning!

Now I am not as well versed in the Bible as I could be, but I'm pretty sure that Jesus was all for reincarnation. Two examples:

Jesus was walking by a man who had been blind since birth. One of his diciples asked him, "Does this man suffer because of his own sins, or the sins of his parents?" Pardon my wording I suspect it is inaccurate. Jesus explained to him that this man who had been blind since birth was experiencing some kind of Karmic backlash which wasn't a punishment for a previous sin, but more of a personal choice he made before he was born to not see because of things he had seen in past life traumatized him.

Obviously someone who had been blind since birth, could not be so because of a sin commited in this lifetime.

Did he not also say something like "Before I was, I am, were flesh?"

The fact that Jesus was the 'Son of God'...I have doubts about. I'm sure that he existed, and was a great healer and philosopher, but he was also human.

Reincarnation? I don't really see how there could be any other way? This one lifetime is far too short to sqeeze in all the knowledge we crave deep inside us...all the experience at loving and feeling.

The more we learn and experience and feel, the more evolved we can become. The closer we can get to this 'god'. If we can conceive him...or her...or it, then why can't we experience this 'god'? I guess we are just not ready.

I struggle with the confines of Christianity. I don't understand how something that is supposed to be glorius and free and joyful can be so restricting and judgemental. I think Christianity has come a long way since the days of Jesus and I dount that a 'good' christian from those days would have a lot in common spiritually with one of our new and improved christians.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: CherryBom]
    #3436424 - 12/02/04 08:33 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

> I don't understand how something that is supposed to be glorius and free and joyful can be so restricting and judgemental.

Because the teachings of Jesus are different than the teachings of the church. The church wants to maintain power over the people and the way to do that is by placing restriction upon the people and then claiming to be the only path to freedom when somebody violates one of the restrictions.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,561
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: CherryBom]
    #3436430 - 12/02/04 08:35 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

jews actually accept reincarnation but it is not an issue of dogma or faith.
jesus was a jew and so don't expect it in any of his recorded teachings.
these faiths are supposed to be about what is going on here.
judaism does not even deal with heaven and certainly not hell etc. those were introduced afterwards as curious motivational incentives in the political dogmas of christianity.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
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Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,177
Loc: Ontario
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Seuss]
    #3436434 - 12/02/04 08:37 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

This is inherently wrong. It's beyond my comprehension why the masses follow so blindly, never challenging themselves. Never questioning what they've been told.

IT'S SO FRUSTRATING!

Would I ever embrace the opportunity to have a chat with this Jesus character....


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Jellric]
    #3436522 - 12/02/04 09:08 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

The Catholic Church removed most all of his references to reincarnation. Reason being, if you thought you had infinite chances, there would be no reason to FEAR  eternal damnation to hell.

They couldn't keep followers contributing to there wealth and power (game agenda) without people beleiving in eternal damnation.

(Exactly why jesus asked that no one start religions in his name. He said they would become corrupted.)

It's all coming out now. Higher ups in the catholic church are revealing when and why the Bible was manipulated by their institution. Most all of the manipulations took place before other christian religions branched off and created their own Bibles which were rip offs from the manipulated one.

I am not posting this because I care to change anyones beleifs. I am only posting in support of those who understand reincarnation.

Out of curiousity, am I the only one here who knows Jesus to be the reincarnation of Bhuddha?


Outside of shroomism, his typing this long ago is how I found the shroomery during a google, are we the only ones who know jesus to be a total cosmic space man? Beleive nothing other then the renassance paintings of Mary holding a baby with light ships in the back round and the 7 stars of the pleaides star system over her head.

It was all in the Bible and it got "manipulated". Gabriel is from the pleiades. The ET's had a lot of interaction with this planet at that time. He got it on with Mary who was incarnated from the Lyran family which the pleiadian collective evolved from.

Gabriell was turned into an Arch Angel who came from the Heavens (stars) to Mary and 'told" her of the coming "immaculate conception" as one of the Bibles "creative edits". When jesus talks about his father, he is talking about Gabriel who was one of the many star people playing god here. Anu and Toth also played god in the old testament.

(actors playing roles in the grand illusion. What a game of dress of and pretend we've had going on here)

Again, I am sharing this for those who know the Bible doesn't 'smell" right in a lot of areas not to change anyones beleifs about it being "the absolute word".

Just as funny as I may sound to beleivers of the Bible as it is, you sound funny to me. Immaculate conception?:santaclaus: I know I know, faith is all you need to beleive God put his seed in Mary. Forget the god that did was a man from the heavens (stars). Oh wait, that is how the Bible describes God? hmmmmmmmmm

None of this either way changes the fact that, I have to get my oil changed today and do some grocery shopping and help my daughter with math. :tongue:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Anonymous

Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Jellric]
    #3436539 - 12/02/04 09:12 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

The Church removed the references to reincarnation in the Bible, along with removing reinarnation from Church doctrine, at the Council of Nicea way back in 325 AD. There are plenty of articles about this if you search Google.

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InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
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Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,177
Loc: Ontario
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3436552 - 12/02/04 09:15 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Out of curiousity, am I the only one here who knows Jesus to be the reincarnation of Bhuddha?


I've been taught though my own education and spirit guides that Buddha and Jesus were of the same soul entity. Also, our own Professor Carl Jung who was quietly secretive about his beleif that his own soul inhabited the body of Jesus.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: CherryBom]
    #3436583 - 12/02/04 09:23 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

What about his also being the orginal Lightbringer aka Lucifer? Neat to see the progression of his soul growth through the evolution of reincarnation.

So Jung knew about hybrid soul piggy backing? neat!

I love this quote from Jesus "They have eyes but they can not see."


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 7 months, 14 days
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3437187 - 12/02/04 11:58 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

minor quibble:
shakyamuni buddha went ahead (ne'er to return to the wheel of death and rebirth) to show us that "one can achieve the mahanirvana"...

therefore his cycle of rebirths (on this & other worlds) was ended for all time... (according to orthodox buddhist thought)

now, a bodhisattva, on the other hand --->
is one who has seen the possibility of total liberation for the individual, but renounces nirvana until "all sentient beings" can go together...


(anywho --- some lovely old(er) folks at my lutheran church mos'def believe in karma & reincarnation...
of course, since i have never believed in reincarnation in any of my previous lifetimes, i'm not gonna start in this one...)

:wink:


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,177
Loc: Ontario
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: gnrm23]
    #3437194 - 12/02/04 12:00 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Ha!


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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: gnrm23]
    #3437266 - 12/02/04 12:20 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

(Ignore me.  I'm eaves dropping while I'm sitting in a depo.  I can't post until tonight.  I'm jealous, though, that y'all are having such a good time.  :mad: )


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Jellric]
    #3437357 - 12/02/04 12:37 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

OK I have spent some time researching this subject. I do not feel I have enough info to make a good participant.

As of right now I think the entire idea of Jesus talking about Reincarnation is completely out of Context to the Majority of his teaching.

But I am trying to do research with a open mind


I will be back.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3437384 - 12/02/04 12:42 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I don't buy the karma stuff either.

Off the wheel for good as if one is trapped by it. Ya right. See how much Buddha evolved between then and his jesus incarnation?

I believe in free will choice and cause and effect. work that in to whatever I said to figure it out.

P.S. I never beleived Budha had it figured out quite so. I think he was somewhat off his rocker but honing in. I like zen stuff though.

In my personal relationship with Jesus, he uses zen stuff a lot which is how I came to appreciate it.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,177
Loc: Ontario
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3437390 - 12/02/04 12:42 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16)

Taken from Freaks sig line, I felt it was significant to this thread.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: CherryBom]
    #3437432 - 12/02/04 12:49 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I am not sure what your point is but,

Everlasting life in heaven, I.E with God

Not to be reborn over and over again as a Breathing living human.

That is crazy.



Fucknuckles agruement number 1

Just from a common sense point of view. The population grows to fast to allow for reincarnation.

Based on what I have read so far. I think 30% or more of the people on the planet would be born for the first time with out ever going through a Reincarnation. That would be an awful lot of people with Zero experience.

Just makes no sense to me.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,177
Loc: Ontario
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3437451 - 12/02/04 12:52 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

So then if we are only to be here once before we chill out for eternity in blissful bordom with nothing to do but bliss all day long, why do we come here ONCE?

What is the purpose of this one time?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3437483 - 12/02/04 12:58 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Thats based on the assumption that no other conscious life exists else where able to choose to incarnate on earth as human. if your assumption is wrong, your argument goes *poof*. if you are correcto, then I guess its fair some are born rich and some poor, some live full long healthy happy lives and some suffer and die within mintues hours, weeks or months. It's totally rightious that some are born without legs, diseased, and retarded etc.

I suppose this has to do with the sins of their fathers and they are being rightiously punished for them in accoradance with the law of God?

Souls from all over the cosmos and here are lined up and waiting for bodies and always have been. Especially NOW. Planet earth is THE place to be.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada Flag
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: CherryBom]
    #3437498 - 12/02/04 01:00 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Bom let me assure you: Heavenly bliss is anything but eternal boredom. The keenest sensual pleasure available on this level is relative pain in comparison, just reporting :wink:


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,177
Loc: Ontario
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3437517 - 12/02/04 01:04 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

It's soul party central. We all want to find our soulmate and fly through the stars together, teaching ourselves, educating each other and becoming more and more evolved beings.

Beings of light, even. Godlike. It takes many, many lifetimes of challenge and lesson and we set ourselves up for it every time we come back, because who knows what we need to work on the most....? Our very spirits. Our souls.

My soul would get bored pretty damn quick up there. It's got much work to do!


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: CherryBom]
    #3437547 - 12/02/04 01:08 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CherryBomb said:
So then if we are only to be here once before we chill out for eternity in blissful bordom with nothing to do but bliss all day long, why do we come here ONCE?

What is the purpose of this one time?




Well first off all your opnion of the after life according to the Bible is wrong. Heaven will not be a boreing place. LOL

We are hear one time to have the chance to learn to Love, to be as close to God as possible. To live in forgiveness of one another. To chose right over wrong. to give our life to the Love of God.

I know exactly what you might say. " How are we suppose to learn all that in one life?"

Many people do.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,177
Loc: Ontario
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3437598 - 12/02/04 01:17 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

So then, in theory... we come here once for 80 or so years, learn how to love and find God and then spend the rest of our spirtual life living happily in this heaven?

What if we don't find that? What if we fall in love all over the place? What if we get divorced? What if we spend our lives being spiteful and greedy and lonely? What if we never experience these feelings of love and comfort? Then what? Have we failed? Was is 'gods' intention for that individual to fail?

I've met some pretty unpleasant people in my travels. I know I've come across lost souls and the like. What if we fail this one chance we've got to pull our shit together?

You say many people find what they are looking for, but what about the ones who don't? Are they undeserving of this eternal bliss you speak of?

Do you think that maybe...just maybe this forgiving 'god' of yours might give them another chance? Try it again? Maybe it could be possible??


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: CherryBom]
    #3437659 - 12/02/04 01:29 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

No every man as he or she grows know what right from wrong is. The become aware that there is good and evil. They at some point know that there is a God. Even in the choice of not believing there is a God. They have made a choice to reject him.

The fact that there are Good things and Bad can not be argued by anyone.

To live is to make choices and once you make the choice to reject God. You live with your choices.

The whole point of Man living is to make to the choice to Love God. God can not make man perfect. There would be no Love without choice.

To Love is to make a choice


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,177
Loc: Ontario
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3437732 - 12/02/04 01:45 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, fair enough...but you're kind of dancing around my question.


What if we fail this one chance we've got to pull our shit together?

You say many people find what they are looking for, but what about the ones who don't? Are they undeserving of this eternal bliss you speak of?

Do you think that maybe...just maybe this forgiving 'god' of yours might give them another chance? Try it again? Maybe it could be possible??


Quote:

Fucknuckle said:

To live is to make choices and once you make the choice to reject God. You live with your choices.






As per your unique perception, what are the consequences of free will? Eternal damnation? Do you beleive in hell as well as heaven? Can one really exist without the other?


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: CherryBom]
    #3437754 - 12/02/04 01:49 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I can only say that we have a choice to Love or not to Love.

What is the rewards of not Loving ? Hate, death, pain, greed etc...

What are the rewards of Love ? Peace, Joy, All need meet etc....


I think you trying to get me to say people go to hell and people go to heaven.

That I will not do because I can not see into anyone's closet. Only God can do that

As far as God has told me, we have but one life to get it right

As easly as I can see that a car battery has a negitive and a posistive.

Love and not to love is the same as a battery.

Yes there is a place of Love and a place of No love


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3439629 - 12/02/04 07:55 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Found this on a website:

Does the Bible and Science Support Reincarnation

Introduction

My primary impetus in doing this page was from a conversation I had with my Orthodox Jewish supervisor. We have had many discussions about theology and other subjects that are "taboo" in the workplace.

In these discussions, I have found that Christianity and Orthodox Judaism teach similar concepts regarding morality and even theology (with obvious differences about who the Messiah is).

In one conversation, I was very surprised to learn that reincarnation is a doctrine accepted by Orthodox Jews. In fact, a statement by Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the leader of the largest ultra-Orthodox Israeli political party, recently caused considerable stir throughout the world. According to the Rabbi, all of the six million Jews killed in the Nazi Holocaust were sinners who were reincarnated, at least in part, to atone for their sins from a past life.1

In trying to defend the Christian doctrine opposing reincarnation, I found that I was unable to think of even one Old Testament verse that disputed reincarnation. However, I assumed that some verses must exist, since I have found that virtually all Christian doctrines can be found in the Old Testament.

A scientific rebuttal to reincarnation

The concept of reincarnation is widely accepted among non-Christians, probably because it appeals to many who would like to believe that they would be given a second chance in case they failed to make the grade in this life.

Christianity disputes reincarnation because it is unnecessary, since anybody can "make the grade" simply through an act of their own will through faith in Jesus Christ.

The scientific rebuttal to reincarnation is quite simple. Because of the population explosion, more people are currently living on the earth than have ever lived on the earth for the entire history of humankind. In other words, over half of the people who have ever lived on earth have never died even once!

There simply are not enough dead souls to go around for a second time. This does not absolutely eliminate reincarnation, but it does severely restrict its extent, especially for those who have claimed to have lived several times before.

What the New Testament says

Let's look at what the New Testament says first. The most quoted verse disputing reincarnation is from the book of Hebrews:

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)

Obviously, if a person dies only once, then he can't be reincarnated. Other refutations of reincarnation came from Jesus. In His description of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man, Jesus indicated that the rich man was unable to do anything about his fate (eternal torment in Hell).2 Reincarnation is supposed to allow a person a second chance at heaven. Jesus, in His teachings, indicated that people would have only one chance to obtain eternal life, otherwise suffer eternal punishment:

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. (Matthew 18:8)

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:46)

"Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation." (Matthew 12:45)

" Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first." (Luke 11:26)

The New Testament letters also indicate that unrepentant people would suffer a final, unpleasant fate.3 Therefore, it is widely accepted by Christians that the New Testament declares reincarnation to be false.

What the Old Testament says

Is the Old Testament really so unclear about the fate of the dead that reincarnation is a possibility? Contrary to what I had originally thought, the Old Testament is not silent on the issue, but provides a clear stance on the subject.

Many Old Testament verses affirm that the dead do not return to the land of the living.4 The Old Testament also affirms that people will enter into an eternal destiny after death.5

The strongest argument against reincarnation comes from the book of Job, which declares several times that the dead do not return to the land of the living:

"When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up. "He will not return again to his house, Nor will his place know him anymore. (Job 7:9-10)

While still growing and uncut, they wither more quickly than grass. Such is the destiny of all who forget God; so perishes the hope of the godless. (Job 8:12-13)

Before I go-- and I shall not return-- To the land of darkness and deep shadow; (Job 10:21)

But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep. (Job 14:10-12)

"For when a few years are past, I shall go the way of no return. (Job 16:22)

I have heard that certain rabbis interpret the verses from Job as denying resurrection rather than reincarnation. However, Job could not be referring to resurrection, since he specifically refers to returning to his house or his place. In addition, at one point, Job affirms resurrection, since his skin will be destroyed yet he will see God in his flesh.

I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end He will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; (Job 19:26)

Conclusions

Reincarnation is a popular belief among many "spiritual" people, and is commonly held in most major religions. It has such popularity because people would like to believe that they will be given a second chance if they "blow it" in their first life.

In Judaism, where salvation is based upon "being good," one could be condemned quite easily by making some major mistakes in his life. The "hope" of reincarnation provides an escape from a God who demands righteousness.

However, both the Old and New Testaments do not leave reincarnation as an option that God chose to use. Why would God not allow a second chance for those who made mistakes on their first attempt? The answer is quite simple.

Salvation is a free gift for all who want it. It requires only repentance from your former life (admitting you were wrong and wish to change) and belief in the completed work of Jesus Christ on the cross to atone for your sins. Anyone can be saved through the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ. Don't expect a second chance to go to heaven. Today is the day of salvation!


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3439677 - 12/02/04 08:02 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Hmmm. I am only finding websites that don't believe that the bible supports reincarnation

http://www.gotquestions.org/reincarnation.html


Question: "What does the Bible say about reincarnation?"



Answer: The Bible does not even mention the concept of reincarnation. The Bible tells us that we die once and then face judgment (Heb 9:27). The Bible never mentions people having a second chance at life, or coming back as different people or animals. Jesus told the criminal on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise!" (Luke 23:43), not "You will have another chance to live a life on this earth." Matthew 25:46 specifically tells us that believers go on to eternal life while unbelievers go onto eternal punishment. Reincarnation has been a popular belief for thousands of years, but it has never been accepted by Christians or followers of Judaism.



The one passage that some point to as evidence for reincarnation is Matthew 17:10-12 which links John the Baptist with Elijah. However, the passage does not say that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated, but rather that he would have fulfilled the prophesy of Elijah coming if the people had believed his words and thereby believed in Jesus as the Messiah (Matthew 17:12). The people specifically asked John the Baptist if he was Elijah, and he said "No, I am not" (John 1:21).


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3442305 - 12/03/04 01:19 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

It has such popularity because people would like to believe that they will be given a second chance if they "blow it" in their first life.

Actually, I think it's safe to say that most people would view one-shot-and-done as being infinitely preferable to having to return to Earth over and over leading difficult lives! I know I would.

In Judaism, where salvation is based upon "being good," one could be condemned quite easily by making some major mistakes in his life. The "hope" of reincarnation provides an escape from a God who demands righteousness.

My belief in reincarnation is not based upon my "hope" that it is true, but my observations of the cyclic nature of life and the many differences in people that it accounts for. I can think of several different scenarios that are far preferable to a belief in reincarnation! When I finally settled on reincarnation I did so very reluctantly.

As for the idea that reincarnation "provides an escape from a God who demands righteousness". Baloney. Even the most casual student of reincarnation knows that karma is extremely exacting and fair in its justice. Returning to life repeatedly to burn off karma is not my idea of an "escape". Far from it.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Jellric]
    #3442396 - 12/03/04 01:47 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:

I adopted a beleif in it in my teens when I started researching the concept after becoming aware of it by studying Budhism and Hinduism.

I came across hundreds of doccumented cases of CHILDREN recalling past life memories and details that through research were varified to be as the children said they would be. The children had no way of knowing the things they did otherwise.

That on top of reincarnation making sense as an explanation for what is otherwise inexplicable.

As a kid being raised Catholic, I had what frog posted shoved down my throat. I would think things like, so babies who die before they are baptised go to pergatory because they are not cleansed from original sin? Then I would think, "How does a God who loves without condition, have conditions for who it accepts into its home? God would not accept a new born babe? What a creep!

I was thinking, how does a god who is deemed to be just and fair, give some life full of health, love , family and support, and some poverty, abandonment, and disease?

I would then think, "thats not fair or just and whoever this god is, he needs a psychiatrist. Reincarnation explains how it can be made fair and just and balanced over the course of many physical life times.

Why do people confuse the biblical expression of ONE life with one physical incarnation type of life? Who ever said one life didn't mean the whole life of the eternal soul?

Who interpreted ONE death to mean one physical death? It can be just as easily interpreted to mean ONE death of the souls "ego" false sense of self, "idea that it is separate from source".

So after finding through my own discerning heart, catholisms interpretations to be whacked, I looked to the eastern religions, and then to real life case studies and then, started having my own experiences of past life and future life memory when I blew my scope out into the cosmic realms.

It's also baloney that people who claim to remember past lifes are all cleopatra.

Most of mine, I was poor, abused, and died young. From all the human incarnations I have uncovered so far, I came across nothing glamorous. The celestial lives are more interesting, still not glamorous. I've been in subserviant positions in all of them actually.

Maybe when my soul matures more, I won't see the subserviance as being a lowley thing. Maybe that is one of the reasons why I keep coming back here to figure that out and overcome it once and for all. 

At least I'm aware of something I am working on in this life that I intened to. Maybe I will wrap it up this time. I would still want to come back though in the future. I think the future of this planet is going to rock hard, that the best is yet to come and we havn't seen anything yet!


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Jellric]
    #3442766 - 12/03/04 03:28 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

The early Christian church accepted the doctrine of reincarnation from non-Jewish sources. Numerous Gnostics as well as church Fathers Clement of Alexandria (who wrote against the Gnostics, but not against reincarnation), Origen (both 3rd century), and by St. Jerome (5th century). The doctrine was FIRST declared a heresy in 553 A.D. by the Second Council of Constantinople. At that time, many Christians thought the doctrine of reincarnation afforded man too much time and space to strive for salvation - it had to be accomplished in one lifetime.

There is little to support the doctrine of transmigration from the words attributed to Jesus found in the canonical Bible. However, those four Gospels were selected by the so-called church Fathers who had agendas of there own, and there were, and are (since the Nag Hammadi discovery) many Gospels that were rejected. John's Gospel, the most theologically radical Gospel, was almost rejected from the canon because it was thought to be 'too Gnostic.' The whole John 3:1-15 sequence regarding Nicodemus coming to Jesus at night (implying secrecy and initiation) being told that a man must be "born again," suggests a ritual (Baptism) where death and rebirth are the theme. The natural cyclic process WAS acknowledged, and Baptism into Christ [the living Christ Consciousness] afforded liberation, salvation from the cycle of birth and death. This is no different than far-East teachings.

Judaeo-Christian cosmology differed from pagan cosmologies in that it established a linearity if time rather than the pagan world's cyclic 'myth of the eternal return.' History had a definate beginning, and an apocalyptic end. If one wasn't "born again" or "born from above," which is to say, if one didn't identify with one's spiritual self, one's transcendental nature, then one perished as does all of nature. The Hell-fire-and-brimstone tradition derives mainly from Matthew's Gospel, which derives from Mark's Gospel WITH the agenda of the author known as Matthew. Mark comes from the 'Q' Source, and Q may have been closer to the Gospel of Thomas before Matthew got a hold of it. So we've got fundamentalist, tent-revivalist, evangelical scare-the-hell-into-them traditions hailing from Matthew-based material, as well as mystical, other-worldly Eastern Orthodox traditions (Greek, Russian, Rumanian) coming from John's pseudo-Gnostic material, not to mention Egyptian Coptic Christians who draw on excluded Pseudepigraphal Old Testament writings, some of whom still entertain transmigration/metempsychosis as metaphysically True.

Bottom line: Christians of different traditions are gonna believe different things - it's everyone's prerogative. The BIG LIE of establishment churches is that salvation depends on right doctrine (orthodoxy) and anything that deviates is wrong view (heresy) and the result damnation. Early Christianity, TRUE Christianity I would add, admitted of many different doctrines. A singular doctrine preserved the religion in the face of competing religions, but it soon became the monsterous Church of Rome which was responsible for more attrocities against humanity than any other single organization. I suggest reading Ehrman's Lost Christianities if anyone is interested.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3442873 - 12/03/04 03:49 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Yay Markos!  :heart: :heart: :heart:

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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3442899 - 12/03/04 03:54 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Awesome Markos. You never fail to inform. Looks like I was wrong. :blush:

Question for Christians here: do YOU believe in reincarnation and why or why not?

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3442919 - 12/03/04 03:58 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Excusez moi Frog but didn't you once say in a post that you believed in reincarnation?

If I am not wrong in my recollections, has this information you just posted affected your stance at all and made you change your position? Just curious :smile:


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3443030 - 12/03/04 04:31 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I worked for years with a huge guy who I swear reminded me of a bull - at least a cartoon version of a bull. He also 'mounted' every big chick ['heffer']who 'presented' for him. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm looking for phenomenological parallels to those pictures in my old Bhagavad Gita who show fat gluttons with pigs, horney ['horn dog'] men with dogs that hump anything, a murderer with an animal being slaughtered. Maybe a lot of people ARE 1st generation humans!

Also, Buddhist rebirth is markedly different from Hindu reincarnation. Only the latter suggests a discrete 'entity' that 'reappears' in the guize of different human beings. The anatta or anatman doctrine in Buddhism posits dispersed 'tendencies' or samskaras which are metaphysically 're-cycled' into new sentient beings. When enough samskaras are clustered in the same being, a memory trace of past lives is possible, as when little kids in Tibet are named 'Tulkus' - reborn Lamas because they claim to be some old man or woman and can select the correct items once belonging to the Lama from a large collection of items. Westerners uncritically lump these doctrines together. Moreover, there are other versions like 'gilgul' in Kabbalism, in which transmigration of the soul occurs because one has not produced any children (which means I have to return). And why is it that Tulkus are found in one tiny section of the planet except for the rare 'Bridey Murphy' story?

Ultimately, from India and Tibet, transmigration is another level of illusion because who we are Ultimately is co-extensive with the Absolute, not momentary lifetimes that arise and fall like little waves on the Ocean of Existence.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3443081 - 12/03/04 04:50 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Good stuff, Markos.  :thumbup:

I've always thought a good example of a first timer soul is Mike Tyson. He's undeveloped in the mind and his actions are not far from that of an animal. He has no control over his appetites, works in a very animalistic sport, scratches, bites and claws opponents. And yet he's a multi millionaire.  :crazy:


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity *DELETED* [Re: Jellric]
    #3443092 - 12/03/04 04:57 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by dorkus

Reason for deletion: .

Edited by dr_mandelbrot (12/03/04 05:00 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: dorkus]
    #3443104 - 12/03/04 05:02 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

no idea
all pretty equal in this soup
and none equal at all.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: dorkus]
    #3443121 - 12/03/04 05:09 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, I know Tyson's background but that doesn't really change my opinion of him. If you take a prince and put him in the 'hood he will still be noble. He clothing and outward apperance might change, and his character might lower somewhat due to the negativity surrounding him, but the bulk of his nature remains unchanged.

I'm not judging him because according to karmic law everyone is exactly where they've earned a right to be. Which is why you should never be jealous of anyone for any reason or look down upon them either.

I agree with you that most humans are not first timers though. Tyson is just a great example of one.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Jellric]
    #3443191 - 12/03/04 05:31 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Come to think of it, at the same school site where the 'bully' guy worked, there was a heavyweight prize-fighter who fought twice on USA TV, and was some 4-5 fights away from Tyson had he won. He was another guy like Tyson, but not as pathologically violent (biting is a strong indicator for a good deal of pathology). He was not too bright, and then punchy too. He liked to boast about his huge penis - to women even who wouldn't be offended. He asked a friend of our's (a stripper turned English teacher) if SHE ever had her dick sucked by a toothless woman. SHE had to remind him that women didn't have dicks. There then was
this guy in the same location - a karmic thing - who behaved like a large mammal in a human form. Once I heard him moan on a phone call when he heard that he had yet another child - a 6 year old. He had 4 boys under his roof already, and they ALL had this man's first name!!! I don't know how many kids he sired. Maybe I'm projecting, but I'm reminded by a stallion rearing up on hind legs while 'boxing' with front hooves.

Last night I went to a zoning meeting, and I was in a room full of black-suited lawyers. I'm trying to get a fix on what I felt, but it was definately 'predatory' with humanized consciousness (I hesitate to say Human, because I define essential Humanity with the Tibetan seed syllable HUM - the Heart - Compassion).

The predicament of who acquires great wealth, of what beings are valued in the worldly mind: athletes and entertainers (redundant in the case of spectator sports), and those who profit from the misfortunes of others, whether lawyers or physicians (in direct contradiction to the Hippocratic Oath not to receive payment - but that's when healing was considered a Divine gift) illustrate the values of current civilization. Of course, big business makes the most - our addictions to gasoline, nicotine, or benzodiazepines. Mega-money and spiritual development cannot coexist. Money is power and power always corrupts. It inflates one's ego with self-importance. Does Tyson or Britney Spears do ANY good to our society? Not that I can discern. Does Madonna/Esther help or profane the spiritual traditions she espouses? The latter I think. Money can help one 'look' good til late in life, but only GOD determines how many days we have on the planet.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3443416 - 12/03/04 06:41 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FreakQlibrium said:
Excusez moi Frog but didn't you once say in a post that you believed in reincarnation?

If I am not wrong in my recollections, has this information you just posted affected your stance at all and made you change your position? Just curious :smile:




I know.  I used to not believe in reincarnation because I was raised the way Jiggy was raised.  (Catholic, Jig???)

Then I was investigating life over the last couple of years and came across information that showed me that reincarnation occurs.

But when I did the research after Jel started this thread, I mostly found these websites that said what I copied and posted above. 

So now I don't know.  But I agree with Markos that we can believe what we want.  And I as I said to fucknuckle, I think we can be Christians and still believe in reincarnation, even if it turns out we're wrong.  I don't think we're going to hell. 

I like the idea of reincarnation.  It fits well with karma. 

See, now all the constructs I have been developing have been blown to hell by those websites I found that denounced reincarnation.

I was trying to find a website that showed how reincarnation is consistent with what is written in the bible.  I had found something like that before, but not this time. 

What I copied and posted above seems to make sense, in a biblical sense, if one is forming one's beliefs based on the bible.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3443422 - 12/03/04 06:43 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

What you wrote makes sense, as usual, Markos, and hello!

:heart:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3443443 - 12/03/04 06:51 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I like the idea of reincarnation. It fits well with karma


As do I, problem is though that according to my new found faith and accepting the Lord Jesus Christ into my life that what He says in the Bible totally goes against the notions of Karma and reincarnation. Please don't get me wrong: If it were up to ME karma and reincarnation would be realities and not concepts(not saying they are just that but only stating my own personal opinion)I am merely a student of life and don't pretend to know all the answers and can only formulate conclusions upon experiences i have had :smile:


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3443465 - 12/03/04 06:59 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Back to the drawing board for me, eh?  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3443490 - 12/03/04 07:09 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

And moi aussi :grin:


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3443766 - 12/03/04 08:49 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

in nikos kazanzakis's wonderful (& "indexed"(literature forbidden to be read by roman catholics,& maybe eastern orthodox communicants) novel _the last temptation of christ_, jesus tells the story of the rich man in hell, unable to get a drop of water from the poor man in heaven... he is asked "rabbi, must the rich man stay in hell?" & he replies "no, god is merciful; after a time he returns to the world again."
(well, that's the gist of it, anyways; my book copy is ummmm somewhere(?)...)

(movie adaption directed/martin scorcese)

~~~~~~~~~~~~


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3443814 - 12/03/04 09:05 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Who was the prophet Elias? I don't have my KJV here, but the line in John 1:21 where John the Baptist is supposed to have answered "no" to being asked if he was a reincarnation I have as being asked if he was Elias, not Elijah.

Frog, the article you posted does tend to lean against reincarnation, but no slam dunk in my mind at least. It seems like what we're coming down to is no strong case one way or another. The issue is never directly addressed so we are left to draw implications.

I suppose one possible reason why reincarnation is never directly addressed is because it was commonly accepted amongst the people of that time and so there was no need to argue for its existence.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3443984 - 12/03/04 10:01 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

It seems evident that there were those who thought John or Jesus to be Elias/Elijah, reborn. The doctrine of transmigration is not taught BY Jesus in the canonical Bible, but the belief system was clearly in place. The Bible as we have it in its canonical form is going to perpetuate the highly suspect agenda of Constantine, who worshipped Sol Invictus - the Mithraic god of the Roman soldiers, and who was forced to make a deathbed conversion. The Bible in this sense is thoroughly the propaganda device of the power-wielding priesthood who constructed it under Constantine. This is not to say that it isn't a vehicle for spiritual Truth, but that the existent Bible has had great spiritual treasure excised from it.

Transmigration is a notion based on experiences that are far older than Judaism. The Middle East had numerous traditions that held to transmigration, especially Plato's philosophy. The Platonic and Neoplatonic elements of Catholicism are unmistakable even if the transmigration is only hinted at. Everything in the Bible is not plain. Nowhere does it speak of Jesus' Bar Mitzvah, but He doubtlessly had one if He truly was a son of Israel, if not the Jewish Messiah. His visit at age 12 to the Temple was not His Bar Mitzvah. It is implied by the whole gestalt of Jewish life. That Jesus may have been married isn't mentioned anywhere and the lone wandering Holy Man image was perpetuated. Unmarried Jewish men were not allowed to speak publically in the Temple - they were not 'complete' men til their sexual nature was lawfully manifest - yet Jesus was said to have spoken in the Temple often in the NT. So it is entirely possible that Jesus was married. Mary called Magdalene most likely (but no, the most important disciple doesn't get to be called an Apostle, and gets called a whore until the 1960's - because she's a woman!)

I do not understand why many or most professing Christians blink their eyes at the source of the canonical Bible. The attitude which holds that GOD formed the canon is entirely naive. Any seeker of Truth has to come to terms with the most profound failures of Bible interpretation, like the fact that Paul was totally wrong about the immanent Apocalypse and the return of Christ. We also have to come to terms with the Nag Hammadi discovery. All those books portray very divergent forms of Christianity. Does one love Truth, or merely tradition?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3444043 - 12/03/04 10:24 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

""Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same."    - Job 4:8

"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish by the sword."  - Matthew 26:52

"Therefore all things whatsover ye that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and prophets."  Matthew 7:12
Or did you think the above verse is merely about being nice to people so that the world would be a nicer :smile: place - a social gospel?

All the above, and there are others, reflect a certain LAWFULNESS. "...for this is the  law ..." It is spiritual cause and effect as much as there is physical cause and effect. It is unusual to see 'instant karma,' but spiritual things are transtemporal and do not necessarily occur in our linear time, let alone to our time-limited ego-perception. Hence, other lifetimes are alluded to -'even to the seventh generation,' reads a curse. Is GOD lawful, or does one read lawfulness through impersonal eyes? THAT is the choice.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3444127 - 12/03/04 10:48 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe John didn't know he was Elias/Elijah (Why the different names?) in a past life, but evidently Jesus confirmed it. Forgive me for c&p'ing the following, but I think it's relevant and I'm pressed for time right now:
in Matthew, 11:13- 14; 16:13. Jesus is asking his disciples Whom do men say that I, the son of man, am, (Matt. 16:13) and the disciples answer Some say that thou art John the Baptist, some Elias and others Jeremiahs or one of the prophets. How could Jesus be thought to be any of these except in a past life? Elias and Jeremiahs lived centuries before. As for John the Baptist, since he had recently been put to death, there could not have been a reincarnation, but it seems that some people thought that his spirit could have inspired Jesus. If people could speak in this way they obviously took the doctrine for granted. That Jesus is actually asking the question shows he is aware of the doctrine of reincarnation and considers it valid.

Jesus himself tells his disciples who John the Baptist really was in the past:For all prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear let him hear. (Matt. 11:13-14)

So Elias, according to Jesus himself, came back to earth in the personality of John the Baptist. This is repeated or confirmed in Matt. 17:12: But I say unto you that Elias is come already and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the son of man suffer of them. 13. The disciples understood that he was speaking of John the Baptist.

The third reference comes as a question concerning a blind man. The disciples ask Jesus: Who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:2-3) How could a man sin before he was born, unless the sin was committed in another life? The apostles are not asking what kind of sin resulted in blindness, but *who* sinned, taking for granted that the act of sinning itself brought about this dire result.

Furthermore, the sin could have been committed either by the man in a previous existence, or by his parents. This implies both that the sins of the parents are visited upon the children, which is a biblical doctrine, and that the soul exists and therefore pays for the transgressions of previous lives.

Jesus does not rebuff the apostles for asking such a question. If the doctrine had been alien to his mind, he would have told them that they were talking nonsense. He simply takes a different attitude. His answer: Neither hath this man sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God should be made manifest in him, (John 9:3) implies that the doctrine of karma (and therefore its corollary, reincarnation) is not always understood rightly and that the calamities that befall humans should not necessarily be laid at its door.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3444184 - 12/03/04 11:12 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

"Based on what I have read so far. I think 30% or more of the people on the planet would be born for the first time with out ever going through a Reincarnation. That would be an awful lot of people with Zero experience."
Humans exist in a temporal, material plane, time is a limiting construct for beings that live in four dimensions. IF there is a soul, might it exist in a realm that allows it to traverse time as easily as corporeal creatures traverse space? As you can go through a house and occupy different rooms in a non linear manner (going back and forth multiple times to the same rooms), might a soul occupy different times out of sequence (as seen from our perspective)? Why couldn't a soul be able to live separate lives that overlap in time?

If we can entertain models of the universe built with human characteristics which include jealousy, anger, vengefulness and an egomaniacal desire to be worshipped ("God"), I don't see why we should not entertain this idea.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Invisibleninjapixie
newbie
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 417
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3444210 - 12/03/04 11:23 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I came across hundreds of doccumented cases of CHILDREN recalling past life memories and details that through research were varified to be as the children said they would be. The children had no way of knowing the things they did otherwise.






I saw a documentary on those children once. The children gave incredibly detailed descriptions of past lives, but when the details were examined and compared to what things were actually like in the time period, the childrens descriptions were way off. They only showed two or three kids whose descriptions were off and concluded all those other cases would be off too, so I wouldn't dismiss it yet.


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Put that monkey back in the oven.

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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Jellric]
    #3445512 - 12/04/04 11:26 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

The cosmological differences between the religions really aren't as big as they may seem.

In the west, the popular concept of reincarnation entails that, as a human, you are reborn as a human. I don't claim that this is wrong, but just note that it has absolutely no foundation in any religious tradition on the entire planet. Hinduism and Buddhism alike acknowledge the existance of different realms - higher and lower, heaven-like and hell-like. The western idea of rebirth seems to stem from an awkward combination of materialism and fear of death.

One major difference seems to be that Hinduism and Buddhism speak of a hierarchy of gods, while Christianity acknowledges just one (or three?). But there are other heavenly beings even to christians, and some of them might be quite powerful. Moreover, both Buddhism and Hinduism acknowledge Brahma as the Creator God, the Big Boss of the universe.

Another difference is the concept of an eternal afterlife. I have to admit that this just doesn't make sense to me. What are you going to do with eternity? Read books? The problem with eternity is that you will come to a point in time where you will only be able to read books with more than a trillion pages, because you have already read every possible combination of letters in books with less than a trillion pages. An eternity of heaven must be hell, indeed.

On the other hand, there really is no time limit to a life in samsara according to Buddhism and Hinduism. It will end, but it apparently can take a lot of time.

Sooooo... IF christians are willing to admit that an archangel qualifies as a kind of minor god, and IF buddhists admit that 84 zillion years is sort of like an eternity, we can actually shake hands on common cosmological grounds.











...and then bang each other's heads over the real differences, which lie in the path the religions suggest.

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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Nomad]
    #3445572 - 12/04/04 11:54 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

By the way, the anatta - concept, or the non-existance of a soul according to Buddhism, is not a cosmological difference to Christianity. It might be true according to Tibetan Buddhism, but from a traditional perspective, it is very clear that anatta is a difference in the path, not in cosmology. In fact, when he was asked about the existance of a soul from a cosmological perspective, the Buddha would resort to "noble silence" - he would refuse to answer questions of a cosmological and impractical nature (as opposed to questions of a cosmological and practical nature).

Edited by Nomad (12/05/04 11:47 AM)

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Autonomous]
    #3445674 - 12/04/04 12:29 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Before I was given Godly wisdom and understood the things of God I could have easily entertained such ideas. But after God had shown himself to me. There is no point in talk of such theories. For Me anyways.

You must realize that unless you truly ask God to give you the wisdom and the knowledge to know the difference. Then you will never know the difference.

It is knowledge that is available to all


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlinedmtrypr
psychonauticalengineer

Registered: 07/15/04
Posts: 193
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3445706 - 12/04/04 12:41 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Beliefs in the Christ and beliefs in reincarnation are not mutually exclusive. People who are stuck on the idea of ONE life ONE chance live in FEAR of death. Fear is a great motivator, it makes it a lot easier to manipulate those who have yet to find their own way, and to justify murder, death, kill in the name of God.


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"There is no greater power in heaven and earth than the thought of the son of man. Though unseen by the eyes of the body,yet each thought has mighty strength, even such strength can shake the heavens." -Gospel of the Essenes

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: dmtrypr]
    #3445762 - 12/04/04 01:01 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

While it may be true that many Christian leaders are in the game of manipulation. The fact is that people who have no concept of living a selfless life are also incapable of understanding what fear is.

My reason to live a Christan life has nothing to do with fearing death or God judgment. It all has to do with Love and the rewards of living a Godly life. The rewards of self denial are far greater than living a life of Selfish fulfillment.

It is through the life of self denial that I get my desires. I have many worldly things, many expensive things. But I have over that past 20 years have given far more than I have received. But yet I have received rewards far greater than the world can offer. The knowledge that I carry is a gift form God and it is not part of my own understanding of such things. I could have never gained the thing I have by myself. NO WAY


This is off topic. I didn't mean to do that.





I am still studying Reincarnation in the bible and I am finding things I was not aware of before. But as of yet I still do see it as fact of what Jesus taught. Still reading................


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlinedmtrypr
psychonauticalengineer

Registered: 07/15/04
Posts: 193
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3446644 - 12/04/04 05:24 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I like what you said here f'nuckle, and I don't think it is really that "off topic". Truly living in God, in a loving relationship with him AND his creation, abiding in his ways are more fufilling than any amount of material possesions or physical gratifications (this isn't to say that you shouldn't enjoy yourself, but just not living solely for the purpose of self/ego gratification).

Jesus said that he was the son of god, and he did great things, but he also called us his brothers and sisters. We share with him the kingdom of the father.

As I understand it, we are made in the image of god, with the same creative potential, the same capacity to love, and the same power. It is our lesson in life to learn how to best apply our power, whether it be for the single self, or the collective. I have found that working for the interests of ALL is much more rewarding than working for the one. I have also found that in knowing my true self I naturally desire to act for my highest good, and in doing so serve the other manifestations of my true self.

St. Francis said it best I believe...

"Grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled ...as to console,
to be understood..as to understand,
to be loved...as to love.
For it is in giving that we recieve,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
it is in dying...that we are born to eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ."


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"There is no greater power in heaven and earth than the thought of the son of man. Though unseen by the eyes of the body,yet each thought has mighty strength, even such strength can shake the heavens." -Gospel of the Essenes

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: dmtrypr]
    #3446673 - 12/04/04 05:31 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

You know even if I thought that God was not real. The ways of God are in fact the best values to live by. Far greatest works of Man have been done using the Ways of God.

Noticed I did not say " In the name of God " that is very different.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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