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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4397743 - 07/12/05 09:26 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I spent about five years fully digesting Mr. Campbell's books. I reread several of them and sometimes did not understand them fully until months after I read them. My favorite was "The Hero With A Thousand Faces". The ideas it contained absolutely changed my life. The notion of the hero of myth as a blueprint to living...the constant cycle of death, rebirth, and reinvention as a path of adaptation to change and adversity was a notion that struck a powerful chord in my life. The implications of this allowed me to make many changes in my life. My initial attraction to shamanism was the parallel between the shamanic crisis and the hero's journey.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: niteowl]
    #4397746 - 07/12/05 09:27 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

"Buddhist....Buddha is God"
No...it is I am Buddha.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4397783 - 07/12/05 09:41 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, my 2nd analyst specifically recommended 'Hero' for me. I am certainly not a mythologist, and I do not own all of Campbell's volumes on Occidental and Oriental mythology but The Power of Myth was also very transforming, even entering the domain of best seller. The archetypes, even as mandalic archetypal images were the first psychedelic phenomenon to evoke life-changing degrees of awe and wonder in me. I have never quite come down, and I sometimes forget that there are two kinds of people - those who have had The Experience and those who have not. This dichotomy goes back to an early Ken Kesey and he was right. If I wasn't an oddball in the first place - this is like being from another world.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4397799 - 07/12/05 09:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

"Climbing up on Solsbury Hill
I could see the city light
Wind was blowing, time stood still
Eagle flew out of the night

He was something to observe
Came in close, I heard a voice
Standing stretching every nerve
I had to listen had no choice

I did not believe the information
Just had to trust imagination
My heart was going boom boom, boom
Son, he said, grab your things, I?ve come to take you home.

To keeping silence I resigned
My friends would think I was a nut
Turning water into wine
Open doors would soon be shut

So I went from day to day
Though my life was in a rut
Until I thought of what I?d say
Which connection I should cut

I was feeling part of the scenery
I walked right out of the machinery
My heart was going boom boom boom
Hey, he said, grab your things, I?ve come to take you home."
-Peter Gabriel


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4397840 - 07/12/05 10:02 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Well said!!


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4397898 - 07/12/05 10:23 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

well, this was a good thread to watch. It went from people grouping together to bash religion, and then, as they realized they had no actual argument, it went into more specific and warm discussion.


my stance is simply that organized religion is not my deal- i prefer an intuitive approach to spirituality. But thats just me. I was raised Roman Catholic, dragged to church every sunday and holiday, sent off to catechism education + some, and yet I'm still fine.


lets see..
funmatic,
Quote:

Even though we all might scientifically observe that god doesn't exist



What do you mean? I was unaware of any scientific observations on there being no God.


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Invisiblefinding_self
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h [Re: vampirism]
    #4398015 - 07/12/05 10:55 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

h


Edited by finding_self (04/18/06 07:43 PM)


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: finding_self]
    #4398555 - 07/13/05 01:26 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

human society itself disproves the existence of god.

fuck this world makes me so sick sometimes


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OfflinePed
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4398656 - 07/13/05 02:15 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

KoTT composed his piece out of the assumption that there is nothing divine for a sentient being to pursue, and so therefore religion has no other aim but to explain what's not understood, and, by way of it's relevence to universality, to control populations and confine them to a simplistic way of thinking and perceiving. From this viewpoint everything he says is quite consistent and quite correct, and that's something I can respect.

However, a great number of alternate viewpoints have been revealed in this thread. For example, MarkosTheGnostic sees the divine as something tangible and worth embracing, yet inexpressable except in forms of myth and archetype. From this viewpoint, KoTT's ideas are problematic and suffer from an overall lack of knowledge.

But it does not matter how much knowlege KoTT has, or how much energy he may devote in the future to familiarizing himself with religious and social history, because his aim at the whole issue assumes nothing greater than the material world to actually exist. He may be quite learned on the subject, but if he still believes that religions were drummed up as fairy tails to ease our discomfort with the unknown, then that will be how he processes and discusses the information.

KoTT, I'd encourage you not to be too static in dismissing religion and religious people as ignorant or unevolved. You might be depriving yourself of very many beautiful things. It's a terrible shame that so many people use such beautiful schools of thought for their own selfish, hateful, and destructive aims, or to derrive a sense of cultural and political identity. Yet, this isn't reason enough to refrain from exploring religion and religious ideas with an open mind and an open heart. You might find something quite profound.

Religions are not simply created by political figures or charismatic revolutionaries. If that were so there would be great many more religious schools of thought competing for supremacy today, and a great many would rise and fall with each passing decade. The religions which persist today are not so simply because they are institutionalized -- they are institutionalized because they were, at some point, widely regarded as actual methods to achieving something truly sublime. Given that so many different religions appeared in different places during different eras in the world's civilized history, there might be something to that. That is, if you give people a little bit of credit.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4398865 - 07/13/05 04:59 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"I don't recal any historians debunking contents of the Bible. Most of the events from Bible have been confirmed by modern archeology and history"

You should know better. This is a falsehood. The great flood has no basis in known fact. Neither does the Garden of Eden, or the story of Jesus for that matter. It is all myth and conjecture.




1.yes there was a huge flood in the regions of mezopotamia

2.How can there be any record of garden of eden or anything like that if first man did not develop writing?

3. Romans did mention Jewish false messiahs, they did not name them though, Jesus was one of them, why would he be remembered by romans or named in their texts if they didn't believe in Jewish messiahs?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: niteowl]
    #4398866 - 07/13/05 05:00 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Myth:
  1. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
  2. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.


The stories (embellishments) about Jesus were the same mythical stuff of the Greek and Roman, Heroes. Virgin birth, preforming miracles.....all these "divine" trademarks, were also present in Greek and roman Mythology.


Do some research, on the history of your precious bible and you will see how it has been shaped and reshaped into it's present form.

Can good come from religion?
On a personal level...yes

On a global level.....no


Virtually all wars were started over religious differences.

Mainly what we call "God".

Christian.....Jesus is God
Muslim.....Allah is God
Buddhist....Buddha is God


We are all worshiping the same God....we're just fighting over what to call him......


kinda stupid if you ask me :shrug:




perhapse there is some truth in Greek mythology too?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: finding_self]
    #4398902 - 07/13/05 06:03 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

FunMatic said:
errr speed typin. I apoligize. Science will ultimately prove or fictionalize The G O D. Or just make it more complex. Your view.




or make it more simple than we thought


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinegnrm23
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grumpy response here: [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4398959 - 07/13/05 06:55 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

"bullshit"
well...
yr POV okeydokey, mate...


so somebody comes up to late, great, scifi writer theodore sturgeon back in the 50s & sez to him "well, 85% of this science fiction stuff is crap!" & sturgeon replied "OK, but 85% of _everything_ is crap."


this observation has henceforth been known as "sturgeon's law"


~

so, applying my own math here, 100% - 85% = 15%...
therefore 15% of _everything_ is NOT crap...

go for the gold, grasshopper...

there's pearls in the mire...
there's diamonds in the rough...
there's a lotus bloom in foetid water...
& that should be enough...





ymmv...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: niteowl]
    #4398972 - 07/13/05 07:14 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I think I'm fairly well acquainted with the Bible and its formation. YOU, however, would benefit from reading John Shelby Spong's Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes. I can always learn more, but the definition om myth that you supplied is shallow and tells me nothing that I don't already know.

"your precious bible" - these sarcastic words are more revealing about issues that you have, then anything about what I may learn about the Bible

"Buddha is God" - this eqation is wrong. If anything, it should be 'Dharma is God' (from the Three Jewels: Buddha-Dharma-Sangha)


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineeve69
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4399018 - 07/13/05 07:52 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

The problem with religion is not the religion. The problem with religion is that people believe it. I am going to copy something rather long because it's a fun read. It should probably be in its own thread, but I choose to contribute it here instead. It's one of my favorite things ever written:

THE MEANING OF SELF-LIBERATION
AND THE LOOPY LOOPS FROM
THE SOURCE OF DANGER IS FEAR
By
El?as Capriles
University of The Andes
Department of Philosophy and Chair of Eastern Studies
M?rida, Venezuela
Article Originally Published in the
International Journal of Transpersonal Studies, vol 20, 2001 (pp. 53-66)
? International Journal of Transpersonal Studies
Reprinted with permission from the copyright owners
who are duly thanked hereby



Self-liberation does not mean that a self liberates himself or herself from delusorily valued thoughts or delusory experiences; what it means is that delusorily valued thoughts and delusory experiences liberate themselves spontaneously (which may take place in three main ways). The paradoxical, inverted dynamics of samsara manifest as countless ?laces? in which we tie ourselves up; understanding the functionality of these ?laces? is one of the preconditions for them to self-liberate?the others being direct introduction and knowledge of the ?treasure of instructions?. Examples of such laces are described herein, though the Upadesha (instructions) that may lead to their self-liberation may not be given openly in a freely circulated publication.

I. The Base, Path and Fruit in the Dzogchen Teachings
and the True Meaning of Self-liberation

The Dzogchen teachings of Tibetan Buddhism speak of Dzogchen as Base (Tibetan: zhi [gzhi]), Dzogchen as Path (Tibetan: lam [lam]) and Dzogchen as Fruit (Tibetan: drebu [?bras-bu]).

Dzogchen as Base is our original condition of total (chenpo [chen-po]) plenitude and perfection (dzogpa [rdzogs-pa]) ?which, in samsara just as well as in nirvana, is the true condition of both the subject and the object, of both mind and matter, and in general of all entities.

In any given individual, this original condition may manifest three different ways of functioning: (1) samsara, wherein a deluded consciousness fails to apprehend the said condition as it is, and only perceives its own dualistic, substantialist fictions; (2) nirvana, wherein the condition in question is apprehended as it is and thus the individual?s experience is characterized by total plenitude, whereas his or her actions are marked by total perfection; and (3) a condition called ?base of all? or kunzhi (kun-gzhi), wherein neither samsara nor nirvana are manifest?so that there is neither the perfect freedom inherent to undeluded primordial cognitiveness nor the incompleteness and self-encumbering inherent in delusion.

It is when samsara has manifested that we need Dzogchen as Path, which consists of the repeated self-liberation of delusion in the unveiling of Dzogchen as Base, and which, if practiced thoroughly and uninterruptedly until its final consequences, will result in the manifestation of Dzogchen as Fruit (which ultimately will imply the manifestation of one of the typically Dzogchen types of consummation of the physical organism). In short, Dzogchen as Path and Dzogchen as Fruit are but the direct unveiling of Dzogchen as Base ?the difference between them being that the first is transient, whereas the latter is definitive.

Now we can explain why is it misleading to speak of ?self-liberation from delusorily valued thought,? ?self-liberation from delusory experiences,? and so forth. It so happens that ?self-liberation? means that, rather than being liberated by an intentional action carried out by the mental subject, delusorily valued thoughts and delusory experiences liberate spontaneously, of their own accord. Moreover, when self-liberation occurs, the illusion that there is a separate mental subject perceiving an object, or acting upon it, and so on, dissolves like a feather entering fire: the self-liberation of delusorily valued thoughts, delusory experiences and so on, involves the instant disappearance of the illusory mental subject. Any attempt by the illusory mental subject to liberate a delusorily valued thought, a delusory experience and so on, would confirm and sustain the illusion that there is a mental subject separate from the flow of experience and from the myriad potential objects, which is a most essential aspect of the essential delusion at the root of samsara?and thus would bar self-liberation and sustain samsara. Thus the phrase ?self-liberation from thoughts? is misleading insofar as it seems to imply that there is an inherently existing self, soul or mental subject that, as a result from its own intentional action, is liberated from delusory thoughts, experiences, and so forth: it is likely to give rise to the attempt by the illusory mental subject to liberate a delusorily valued thought, a delusory experience and so on?which, as noted above, would bar self-liberation.

The above explanation has to be made more precise, as there is not a single kind of self-liberation, but a whole range of it that is divided into three main types, corresponding to three principal capacities. Whereas the first type/capacity of self-liberation depends on a previous intentional movement of attention that intends to apprehend the true essence of a thought that is already established as an object, the second type/capacity of self-liberation depends on an instant automatic reaction as the delusorily valued thought begins to arise. Finally, the third type/capacity of self-liberation does not involve either an intentional movement of attention toward a thought that is already established as object, or a spontaneous reaction as the delusorily valued thought begins to arise: as the thought arises, it self-liberates, like a drawing on water. In this last type of self-liberation thought is not delusorily valued even for an instant; therefore, it never veils the ?essence? or ngowo (ngo-bo) aspect of the Base, which is voidness (shunyata, tongpanyi [stong-pa-nyid], wu, mu).

Though the first type of self-liberation is preceded by an intentional movement of attention towards the thought that is already established as object, and the second type is preceded by an instant automatic reaction of attention as the delusorily valued thought begins to arise, in neither of them is self-liberation produced by the illusory subject?s intentional acts or spontaneous reactions. Self-liberation being spontaneous liberation, its occurrence shows most clearly that the subject cannot cause it, and that the obstinate attempt to do so does but increase the force and intensity of delusion. However, even this attempt will not prevent self-liberation, as the increase of the force and intensity of delusion may lead it to a threshold level at which, its reductio ad absurdum having been achieved, its spontaneous liberation becomes possible. In turn, this runaway of delusion to a threshold level and subsequent self-liberation will demonstrate even more clearly that the subject?s intentional actions or automatic reactions may not cause liberation.

The following lines may illustrate the first type/capacity of self-liberation:

As I look into the thought in order to apprehend its essence
suddenly there is no one to look and nothing to be seen,
as subject and object instantly, spontaneously dissolve
independently of their will, like feathers entering fire:
Thought disappears on the spot and there only remains
the patency of inherently self-liberating primordial cognitiveness.

In turn, the second type/capacity of self-liberation may be poetically described in terms of the following lines:

Like snakes
tensions appear and dance in my breast;
like snakes
they uncoil and free themselves on the spot
in the radiant, limitless, unborn
and empty expanse.

To conclude, the third type/capacity of self-liberation may be poetically expressed as follows:

Silence roars and darkness shines
in the sparkling fullness of the void?
and if a thought arises
it is void
and therefore does not veil
the roar of silence
in the fullness of the void.

Since there is no longer an apparent distance between a subject and an object, (we) cannot follow patterns ?down the river? as subjects who look toward an object, but simply ?remain in the source? beyond the subject-object duality. Like endlessly moving ripples in a spring, thoughts leave no traces and there is no mind to seek them: the ?mirror? of primordial cognitiveness reflects whatever appears at any moment, but no imprint is ever left on its surface, as there is no observer to look into the mirror. Thus, there is no longer any ?meditation,? but authentic, true self-lib?eration.

II. The Source of Danger is Fear

The Source of Danger is Fear is a manuscript consisting of successive sections, the materials of which came to me while I was in retreat in the higher Himalayas practicing Dzogchen between 1977 and December 1982. Each section of the original manuscript has two parts: the first de?scribes a ?lace? in which we frequently tie ourselves up, and the sec?ond provides instructions for the practice of the Dzogchen Upadesha which may create the conditions for the ?lace? described in the first part to undo itself spontaneously. The condition for this to possibly occur is that we have already been introduced to the state of absolute, nondual, undeluded Awareness that the Dzogchen teachings call rigpa (though even in this case the lace cannot be untied by means of a contrived action). It so happens that this text was written in the tradition of the Upadesha series of the Dzogchen teachings, which provides instructions allowing us to remain in the state of absolute, nondual, undeluded Awareness to which we have al?ready been introduced.

It must be noted that some of the ?laces? described are auto-cat?alytic systems?that is, systems involving positive feedback loops that cause them to grow exponentially from their own feedback. Only the effective work of re?pression?in case we prefer to use Freud?s explanation ?or bad faith?in case we prefer to use Sartre?s ?which depends on a low bioenergetic input and the concomitant state of small space/time/knowledge, can curb the system?s tendency to increase its intensity toward a threshold level at which, having achieved its reductio ad ab?surdum, the system becomes liable to self-liberation. The under?standing of the functional structure of the ?lace? described in the first part of any given section and the increase of the bioenergetic input and the consequent enlargement of the individual?s space/time/knowledge may activate the process of reductio ad absurdum, just as the intro?duction to the state of rigpa and the knowledge of the methods outlined in the second part of each section may create the conditions for the system?s self-liberation?or, in other words, for the ?lace? to undo it?self spontaneously.

In this paper I shall not reproduce the second part of each section, but only the first one, that is the one describing the ?lace? in which we tie ourselves up. The reason for this is that the instructions contained in the second part are not to be publicly/indiscriminately broadcast, but only transmitted individually to authorized, capable practitioners, by an authorized, capable Master (which I certainly I am not).

Time

A1 We miss the now and its inherent bliss
and experience uneasiness and discomfort
as we run after thoughts which project a ?better? future,
evoke a ?better? past or imagine a ?better? present,
and thereby indulge in longing or nostalgia.

A2 The now is supreme bliss, which we miss,
as we concentrate on thoughts about the future or the past
or on countless miscellaneous thoughts
because we miss the now?s supreme bliss
as we concentrate on thoughts about the future or the past
or on countless miscellaneous thoughts
because the now?s supreme bliss eludes us
as we concentrate on thoughts...
da capo sine fine...

Pleasure and pain

A1 We fail to obtain lasting pleasure
and constantly reap pain
as a result of our obstinate attempt
to attain lasting pleasure and avoid all pain.

A2 We wish to obtain lasting pleasure
and elude the pain produced
by our attempt to obtain lasting pleasure
and to elude the pain produced
by our attempt to obtain lasting pleasure
and to elude the pain produced...
da capo sine fine...

Boredom

A When we are in repose
and experience no novelty or change
we project on our experience the concept of ?boredom?
and, as a result from the subtle rejection of our experience
produced by the overvalued projection of a ?negative? concept,
we experience the uneasiness and discomfort called ?boredom.?
However, in order to forbear our daily toil and hardships
we need the incentive of aspiring to repose
and therefore we tell ourselves that we cannot enjoy repose at present
because in order to do so first we must resolve some problems,
and thus we engage in struggle
in order to win the repose
that we imagine will provide us with pleasure and satisfaction.
However, when we ?win? our repose
and experience no novelty or change
again we project on our experience the concept of ?boredom?
and thus experience uneasiness and discomfort,
and so again we tell ourselves that we cannot enjoy the repose
because first we must resolve some problems,
and therefore again we engage in struggle
in order to win the repose
that we imagine will provide us with pleasure and satisfaction..
da capo sine fine...

Desire

A By hungrily looking toward a supposed future pleasure
to be obtained from a supposedly substantial object
we miss the total bliss of nowness.
Then, when the desired future arrives
we are so possessed by the attitude
of looking toward the future and away from the present
that we cannot at all enjoy the experience we had yearned for.
Then we elude awareness of our frustration
and of the emptiness we have discovered,
by imagining that pleasure will be found in the future
when we obtain another object.
Thus, the great bliss and plenitude of nowness
continues to be hidden as we look and rush toward the future
and experience the dissatisfaction and frustration
of being away from the now.

Fear, insecurity, suffering and Refuge

A1 We are constantly searching for security because we are fearful.
We are fearful because we search for security
instead of giving ourselves up to the insecurity that life is:
if we gave ourselves up to insecurity we would feel secure,
for we would have no fear of insecurity.
Escaping insecurity, instead, implies and begets fear:
the more we escape, the more we affirm that there is something to fear;
the more we affirm there is something to fear, the more we fear.
Thus, we search for security because we fear
and we fear because we search for security.

A2 We fear the terrible sensation that fear is
but the fear of the sensation of fear
begets the sensation of fear that we fear.

A3 We try to elude our fear by taking refuge in objects:
friends, lovers, groups, beliefs, identities, positions.
Since these objects are breakable and unstable
by taking refuge in them we condemn ourselves to the fear of losing our refuge:
we take refuge because we fear losing the refuge that we take
because we fear losing the refuge that we take because we fear...
da capo sine fine...

A4 We fear that others discover our fear
but our fear that our fear may be discovered
is fear that may be discovered by others:
we fear that they may discover the fear that they may discover
the fear that they may discover the fear that...
da capo sine fine...

Tension

A1 The delusory valuation of thought at the root of the belief in a self
is sustained by neuromuscular tensions,
vibrations, contractions and reverberations which,
insofar as attention is occupied with thoughts/objects
other than the tensions, vibrations, contractions and reverberations,
are not felt to be unpleasant and thus may be conserved.
In turn, insofar as they are conserved,
we are compelled to evade them
and, thus, to conserve them.

A2 There can only be tension when there is rejection
and, whenever there is tension, consciousness rejects it.
However, insofar as tension is not the central object of attention
rejection of it is subtle and, therefore, tension is slight.
Then, as we become aware of tension, our rejection increases
proportionally to our awareness of it,
making tension increase and become more unpleasant.
The more unpleasant tension becomes, the more we reject it,
making it ever more unpleasant. This autocatalytic system
may bring the unpleasantness to a threshold level
at which the subject-object duality/delusion at its root may collapse
and thus unpleasantness may come to an end.

Self-importance

A1 When we anguish about another?s anguish
our anguish feeds the other?s anguish
by confirming the belief in the extreme importance of life and pain
which is the deepest root of anguish.

At first, the immediate cause of anguish may be an external situation;
once anguish has manifested,
the immediate cause of anguish may be the presence of anguish itself.

A2 In the same way, consoling someone confirms
the belief in the extreme importance
of that individual, of his or her experience and of his or her grief.
Since this belief is the deepest cause of grief,
confirming it may cause grief to increase.

By trying to do something about our distress
we cause the aversion at the root of distress to increase
and confirm the illusion of absolute importance
which is the deepest cause of distress.

Blaming others

A1 As soon as we experience guilt, fear, distress
or any other undesired emotion
we want to escape.
We fail to understand that undesired emotions are painful
only when we regard them as undesirable and want to escape.

A2 Worse still,
when, for any reason, we experience guilt,
we try to get rid of it
by blaming others for the ?evil? for which we feel guilty.
Thus we add to our guilt the guilt of blaming others,
making our guilt increase and therefore giving rise
to an even greater need to blame others.

Hatred

A1 Regarding some aspects of ourselves as abhorrent,
and feeling that a self having such aspects would itself be abhorrent,
we are compelled to deny them in ourselves,
project them on others, and abhor those others.

Moreover, we can only abhor and hate others
if we justify our hatred
and elude guilt for it
by thinking that it is the fully cogent response
to the evil-doing and the supposedly evil nature
of the individual whom we hate.

A2 We evade awareness of the pain in our heart that hatred is
by concentrating on the object of our hatred
and its supposedly evil character.
Since we do not realize the pain that hatred implies,
we may continue to hate,
perpetuating the pain that hatred is.

Contemplation and uptight mindfulness

A1 In order to attain the state of Contemplation
?that is, to ?rest? in the state of absolute, nondual, undeluded Awareness?
and avoid being drawn away from this state by distracting thoughts
an alert attentiveness is needed.
However, attention is precisely what Contemplation must dissolve.

Being alert so that distraction will not carry you away generates tension.
However, tension is precisely what Contemplation must cut.

If you are not alert, thoughts will carry you away
and make you revolve in the wheel of samsara.
However, if you are alert, this will beget tension and aversion
and sustain the illusory perceiver-doer
which is the root of samsara.

A2 When we begin to meditate we keep alert
so that thoughts will not carry us away from nowness
constituting a ?chain of delusion? that would cause us
to ceaselessly revolve in the ?wheel of samsara?:
we are taught that we must ?reCognize? the essence of thoughts
so that they will liberate themselves in the ocean of gnosis?
the state of absolute, nondual, undeluded Awareness.

Trying to do this, we give rise to a delusive ?uptight mindfulness?
which is a function of the duality of subject and object
and of the delusory valuation of ?the self? and ?its thoughts??
and which, thus, keeps us revolving in the ?wheel of samsara.?

Self-consciousness

A1 When we are carrying out an activity
and worry about erring
our worry and self-consciousness interfere with our subjectivity,
causing us to blunder.

It is when fearfully we look down toward the abyss that we fall.

A2 When we become the object that others watch and judge
and thus get self-encumbered,
for fear of others and of our painful experience
we ?hide our head in the sand,?
trying to minimize suffering by minimizing awareness.
This experience of rejection, however,
will last only insofar as we reject it
and evade full awareness of it.

Delusion, distress and here-nowness

A1 The distress inherent in delusion
may be taken to be inherent in leisurely here-nowness
and, thus, we may spend our lives evading leisurely here-nowness,
trying to fill our time with business and distractions
and thus generating the aversion to the here-and-now that gives rise to distress
and missing the plenitude, fulfillment and bliss inherent in plain here-nowness.

Conceptualizing the now as being boring, we reject it
and thus experience the pain produced by rejection
that we believe to be inherent in leisurely here-nowness
and which we reject, giving rise to further pain
that we believe to be inherent in leisurely here-nowness
and which we reject, giving rise to further pain...
da capo sine fine...

A2 And, in general, when we face situations with little variety or change
?whether in our daily activity or while sitting in meditation?
we project the ideas of boredom, dullness and heaviness
and thus reject our experience, experiencing the unpleasantness
that we call ?boredom, dullness and heaviness?
and believing that it is inherent in those situations
in which there is little variety or change.
By rejecting both the unpleasantness
and the situation with which we have associated it,
we generate more unpleasantness,
that we reject, generating more unpleasantness...

Lacking

A We feel empty and try to fill this lack
by contacting, acquiring and possessing valuable objects.
However, by trying to fill our illusory lack
we affirm it as real and true,
sustaining it and making it grow in proportion
to the ?value? of the objects with which we try to fill it:
the more valuable the object, the greater our lack becomes.

Thus, by attempting to recover the original plenitude we lost
as we felt separate from the plenitude of the given,
we make ourselves empty and dissatisfied.

Others, pride and value

A We may also try to ?fill the lack? with value projected on us by others
and, becoming the object that they prize, swell our heart with pride.
However, instead of granting us plenitude,
this exposes us to the risk of being unrecognized
or of being unappreciated, despised or humiliated:
by making our heart?s fluctuations depend on the Other?s look
we condemn ourselves to anguish and anxiety and,
again and again, we must fall into the hell
of self-deprecation, disparagement and humiliation.
A swollen heart is easy to puncture
with the spear of a look or the arrow of a sharp phrase.
The more we strive to obtain a high value
through the Other?s favorable look,
the more we affirm ourselves to be lacking in value,
and so the more we need to be filled
with the value the Other bestows on us
and the more exposed to contempt and humiliation we become
?and so the more anguish we shall have to experience
and the emptier and more deprived we shall feel.

Favorable conditions

A1 The esteem and respect of many is a source of pride:
when others admire and accept the entity indicated by our name
the mental subject establishes a ?link of being? with that entity
and, accepting it, it accepts the totality of its experience and sensations
and thus experiences pleasure: as the Stoics knew well,
sensations are pleasurable when we accept them
and unpleasant when we reject them.
Thus, the others? favorable look causes us to feel well.
However, accepting whatever we are conditioned to accept,
conditions us to reject what we are conditioned to reject
whenever we meet it.
Therefore, pride causes samsara?s Ferris wheel to turn:
after we ascend, we shall have to descend
and meet the distress which human beings call ?hell.?

A2 The Buddha Shakyamuni declared that, in samsara,
pleasure is but a momentary relief from pain.

This relief is pleasurable
because it allows us to stop rejecting our experience
and accept it, thus experiencing pleasure.
However, the pleasure thus obtained is transient, for it is not possible
to make acceptance permanent, shunning rejection forever.

Looking for pleasure is a source of pain,
yet we cover the embers with so many ashes
that awhile we cannot feel the burn.
Thus, we consolidate our habit of clinging to the ember
So that sooner or later we shall burn our hand.

Worrying for others

A When those who care for us worry about our vicissitudes
the true cause of their worry is not whatever we do
but the fact that they have taken refuge in us
?who are breakable and changing entities?
rather than in their own unbreakable and changeless essence.
Nevertheless, they often make us feel
that the cause of their sorrows is our behavior
?for example, our dedication to the spiritual quest?
and thus feel justified in inflicting themselves with suffering
and feel compelled to make us feel guilty
by letting us know that we are the cause of their sorrows.
If we believe them, we may experience guilt and worry,
failing to see that they have themselves caused their own sorrows
just as we are causing ours by inflicting guilt and worry upon ourselves.

If we have any responsibility for both their suffering and ours
it lies in our mistaken refuge and the delusory valuation that sustains it.

Illness and pain

A1 By obsessively protecting ourselves
from what we regard as the sources of illness
we may give rise to the bioenergetic imbalances that beget illness.
Thus, we may give rise precisely to that which we want to avoid.

A2 Similarly, it is our rejection of ?pain?
that turns into pain what is but naked sensation:
the only pain is the one resulting from the making of pain a problem,
rejecting it, and despairing about our inability to bring it to an end.

Good and evil

A As children, we are taught that, in order to ?be good,?
we have to keep our nature under control and ?behave?
?which implies that we are inherently evil
and that this evil will manifest if we do not control our nature.

Even those of us who were told that we were ?good?
were repeatedly made to feel bad
in order to discourage unwanted behavior patterns
and make us try to feel good by adopting the ?positive? identity others offer us
and behaving as they want us to behave.

Nevertheless, since the condition of our ?goodness?
is the implantation of a monstrous phantasy
(the monster that mother saw us as while punishing us)
no matter how deep inside we bury this phantasy
it will surface again and again
soiling our ?good works? with ?evil.?

Thus, by trying to make us be ?good?
?well-meaning? people implant the roots of ?evil? in us.

Meaning

A1 When we miss the ineffable, nonconceptual meaning
there arises the need to endow our life and tasks with enunciable meanings
and to put hopes in worldly aspirations.
Then, we fear that if we lose these meanings
and fail to realize these aspirations
the result shall be meaninglessness and despair.
We cannot see that the loss of false meanings and hopes
is necessary for rediscovering the ineffable, nonconceptual meaning
inherent in the state of absolute, nondual, undeluded Awareness.

Only this meaning may make us feel
truly and completely full(filled) and realized.

A2 Because we have lost the meaning beyond words
we give rise to conceptual meanings;
because we cling to conceptual meanings
we have no access to the meaning beyond words;
because we have no access to the meaning beyond words
we give rise to conceptual meanings...
da capo sine fine...

Moralist teachings and relative practices

A Relative teachings and moralist practices
may help beings of certain capacities
to lead a less conflictive existence.
However, an exaggerated emphasis on them
may lead us to believe that rules and precepts are absolute
and that their observance is ultimately important,
thus increasing the delusory valuation that is the cause of duhkha
and making us more intolerant toward others.

Whatever causes us to rise to heaven
later on will be the cause of our falling into hell.
As stated by Yung-chia Hs?an-ch?eh:

?Giving (dana) practiced with an aim
may result in the grace of being reborn in heaven.
This, however, is like shooting an arrow upwards:
when the strength propelling the arrow is exhausted
it will return to the ground
and this will be a source of adverse karma
for times to come.?

By taking the way of heaven
we fall deep into hell.

In a succession or toothaches and ice-creams
which does the child want to have first?
It is better to step down from the wheel
that carries us up to heaven and then takes us down to hell.

Yet the worst with moralism
is that it may be used by ?demonic? pseudomasters
as a pretext for murdering truly Enlightened Masters.
In the name of purity, the greatest possible fault is committed.

Despise the passions?

A1 Let us take the example of anger:
If I despise my anger
I shall give rise to anger against my anger.
Since anger against anger is also anger,
by despising anger I shall produce more of what I want to uproot.

The more my anger grows, the more I shall despise it;
the more I despise it, the more it will grow.

A2 In general, it is impossible
to despise our passions without despising ourselves,
for we feel responsible for our passions
(and, when we no longer do so, we are no longer prey to passions).

So, when we despise our passions we become a despicable self;
the more we despise them, the more despicable we become,
and the more despicable we become,
the more the passions that we deem despicable grow in us.

Purification

A If one tries to ?purify oneself? through relative practices
?from the visualization and recitation of Vajrasattva
to practices of tsa/lung/thigle ?
the assumption that there is an impurity to be purified
will sustain the delusory valuation of thought
and thus the duality and judgement which constitute the impurity.
Thus, our endeavor will be comparable
to cleaning a pristine mirror with a dirty cloth.

If the bioenergetic input is high enough,
if one is subject to the supreme samaya of Dzogchen,
and if one possesses the instruction,
self-liberation will disperse the clouds
covering the sky and blocking the sunlight.

Contrariwise, the idea of an impurity to be purified
Sooner or later would become the door to hell.

Opening up

A1 We fear opening up,
feeling that this would expose us to evil and harm
and, eventually, make us lose ourselves and ultimately be destroyed.
How little we realize that we can only be harmed
when, being possessed by delusory valuation, dualism and self-clinging,
and believing that we are ultimately real and important selves
to be protected and safeguarded, we close ourselves:
since the supposedly real and important ?I? may always be harmed
we are thus condemned to terror, anguish and anxiety
and provide a target that is vulnerable to attack.

By opening up and attaining Enlightenment, instead,
we attain plenitude and stability that cannot be harmed
and are freed from fear, anguish and anxiety.

A2 In the same way, we fear that if we open up
an underground monster lurking in our depths may possess us.
However, the monster of unconscious phantasy is sustained
by our drive to check it and keep it under control:
by supposing that it is our deepest nature,
we keep it alive, producing unforeseen effects.

If we applied the instructions and opened up, the illusory monster
would dissolve in anoic gnosis free of subject and object
and we would be rid of inveterate impulses.

Uneasiness in meditation

A When we sit in meditation and look at our thoughts
we may feel uneasy
and think that this uneasiness is inherent in meditation.
Actually, it is the uneasiness of delusory valuation and grasping,
which normally we fail to realize as such
because we are closed and our attention is preoccupied
with countless projects and ideas.
If this uneasiness becomes evident when we sit to meditate,
we may wrongly associate it with meditation and openness
and thus be ?instinctively? tempted to interrupt our meditation
and keep clinging to and following overvalued thoughts,
trying to escape from uneasiness
by clinging to its very source.

If, instead, (we) ?reCognize? the essence of the present thought
and thus ?Enter? the State
uneasiness disappears in the plenitude and bliss of the unborn.

We project the uneasiness of delusory valuation
on openness and Contemplation
and thus keep from the latter
and cling to and follow overvalued thoughts,
reaffirming and reinforcing the source of uneasiness.

Boredom in meditation

A In Contemplation, plenitude, bliss and satisfaction are inexhaustible.
However, sooner or later, Contemplation is interrupted,
we feel separate from the continuum of the Base,
become obsessed with an object of desire which we imagine
will provide us with plenitude, bliss and satisfaction,
and, by developing a powerful yearning for it,
we maintain the state of illusory duality and separation
which is lack of plenitude, distress and dissatisfaction.
Thus, we compulsively run after our own tail
which, no matter how fast we spin, always remains out of reach.

If the conception of an object of desire
does not spontaneously liberate itself upon appearing
and we fail to apply the instruction which allows its self-liberation
the uneasiness of delusory valuation and desire will drive us
to interrupt our practice in order to run after the object of desire.

Too many passions and delusions in Contemplation

A If, while we ?practice? Contemplation,
passions and delusions arise uninterruptedly
and we experience anguish or uneasiness
we feel that these are justified
by the undesirable flow of passions and delusions
which we believe is their objective cause.
However, in truth our uneasiness springs
from the delusory valuation of the concept of ?passions and delusions?
and the belief that these are inherently undesirable.

Profound instructions

A When the ?two lights? shine and, failing to ?reCognize? their nonduality,
the ?light of the son? fights against the ?mother light,?
or when a tremendous agitation possesses us
and we do not manage to cease struggling and despairing,
we should apply the ?profound instructions? we have received.

However, the more we apply these instructions
in order to ?resolve? the situation,
the more we affirm ourselves as different from the latter
and the more value and reality we ascribe
to both the situation and ourselves;
therefore, the more we affirm and sustain our delusion
and the more conflictive and unbearable we make our situation.

Our attempt to resolve the situation
reinforces the situation we want to resolve.

Peaceful mandalas

A Our inability to somehow alter the impassivity of peaceful mandalas
?the peaceful, undefiable immutability of the ground?
seemingly begets irritation. Actually, the cause of irritation
is the inveterate impulses of delusion
rather than the peaceful mandalas to which we are reacting
and which we thus turn into wrathful mandalas.

Wrathful mandalas

A If, when (we) are ?resting? in the state of Contemplation
and the bioenergetic input is very high,
we feel subtly separate of whatever is happening
the experience of the wrathful mandalas may take place:
the flow of experience shakes us until the delusion
of someone who is shaken and something shaking her or him
dissolves in absolute, nondual, undeluded Awareness.

Ignoring that the agitation that we suffer
is the skillful means of the True Teacher
we may feel anguished and resist and try to escape,
thus increasing the agitation:
our most precious friend is perceived as our most dreadful enemy.

III. Social Laces

Ecology and survival

A Our terror of insecurity and impermanence leads us to invent
technological ?solutions? in order to eradicate
all risks of death, illness and all that we consider to be a problem.
Thus, we produce pesticides, chemical fertilizers, antibiotics,
drugs and all kinds of ?sciences,? devices and machines
?from nuclear energy to genetic engineering?
that disrupt the ecological balance on which our lives depend
both in the so-called ?external world? and ?inside our bodies.?

We try to destroy the ?negative? side of the coin of existence
?the side featuring death, suffering, illness, discomfort,
insecurity, hard work, pain and so on?
by constantly putting corrosives on it.
Nowadays, corrosion has worn away so much of the coin
that it is about to reach the side we wished to preserve
?life, joy, health, comfort, security, leisure, pleasure and so on?
and thus put an end to human existence.

By trying to destroy death
we have come to the brink of bringing all life to an end.

Social change

A1 The oppressive structures of society are internalized by all of us,
molding our psychological and experiential structures.
If we set out to transform society
without having transformed our own inner structures
we unavoidably reproduce those structures in the new order of things.

Therefore, what we mean to be a total transformation of society
will be but a mere change of masters.

A2 The internalized, aggressive and oppressive elements of society
are integrated into the structure of our psyche.
If we project those elements of our psyche on the ruling class
and try to destroy them by destroying the members of that class
our destructive and oppressive actions will make all the more powerful
the negative elements of our psyche which we wished to destroy.
Having destroyed the ones on whom we projected those elements,
the latter?s? underground presence will be felt again in our own selves
and thus we shall be compelled to project them in new ?others?
who may also be destroyed as though they were those aspects.

The enemy

A Fearing that the Enemy may destroy us
we have almost achieved the destruction that we fear.

If we used the most powerful weapons that we have developed
we would not only destroy our enemies, but would destroy ourselves.
Moreover, in building those weapons we have released
so much radioactive pollutants into the environment,
that even if we do not use them our survival is uncertain.


--------------------
...or something







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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: grumpy response here: [Re: gnrm23]
    #4399207 - 07/13/05 09:39 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

gnrm23 said:
"bullshit"
well...
yr POV okeydokey, mate...


so somebody comes up to late, great, scifi writer theodore sturgeon back in the 50s & sez to him "well, 85% of this science fiction stuff is crap!" & sturgeon replied "OK, but 85% of _everything_ is crap."


this observation has henceforth been known as "sturgeon's law"


~

so, applying my own math here, 100% - 85% = 15%...
therefore 15% of _everything_ is NOT crap...

go for the gold, grasshopper...

there's pearls in the mire...
there's diamonds in the rough...
there's a lotus bloom in foetid water...
& that should be enough...





ymmv...





You say 85% is bullshit, but you didn't say where does this opinion come from. What is your source of information that led you to think this?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4399706 - 07/13/05 12:32 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

"1.yes there was a huge flood in the regions of mezopotamia

2.How can there be any record of garden of eden or anything like that if first man did not develop writing?

3. Romans did mention Jewish false messiahs, they did not name them though, Jesus was one of them, why would he be remembered by romans or named in their texts if they didn't believe in Jewish messiahs?"

None of that justifies calling the Bible confirmed history. And the flood part is pure conjecture by people trying to declare the Bible history. Declaring that the Garden of Eden could be true because there was no recorded history is a fallacy in logic. If there is no record of something then there is no proof as to it's existance.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/13/05 01:13 PM)


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4399740 - 07/13/05 12:44 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

God has no religion. God is God and men are men. Men can find God. Jesus Christ found him. To be a Christian in the true form, is to be Christ like. To learn. To search the path of God and Love thru the example of Jesus the Christ.

This has already been said. This thread is great.

I agree that when people get toghter take in cash, buy cars, houses and let the poor in there own church suffer. They are so far from the truth it can be concidered evil.

but please do not underestimate what Jesus taught.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4399764 - 07/13/05 12:52 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4399772 - 07/13/05 12:56 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

i think after reading all this im with ghandi....i like that quote, i like your chirst but not your christians... the christian right makes me violent :wink:


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